International law or even a legal framework regarding what is legitimate resistance to occupation?

[fncceo]

I'm a history nerd

Half right.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Jewish people have those emotions about losing their homeland and being wanderers longing for home for thousands of years.

Do you have any proof that those European Jews had ancestors from Palestine?

And another never answered question. When were the Jews the only people there?

 

[P F Tinmore]

According to the world and so what? The majority of Jews converted to Christianity after Jesus and many of them later converted to Islam.

Sure. And some of them stayed Jews. Both at home and in the Diaspora. Why should the Jewish people who originated on that territory have FEWER rights than those who converted to other ethnic or cultural groups?

My argument is that both people have rights. Your argument is that the Jewish people have lost all rights.

It is Israel that is saying that only Jews have rights.

The Jews were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there. There is no historic precedence for an exclusive Jewish state.

Does Israel Have a Right to Exist as a Jewish State?

 

[Hollie]

According to the world and so what? The majority of Jews converted to Christianity after Jesus and many of them later converted to Islam.

Sure. And some of them stayed Jews. Both at home and in the Diaspora. Why should the Jewish people who originated on that territory have FEWER rights than those who converted to other ethnic or cultural groups?

My argument is that both people have rights. Your argument is that the Jewish people have lost all rights.

It is Israel that is saying that only Jews have rights.

The Jews were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there. There is no historic precedence for an exclusive Jewish state.

Does Israel Have a Right to Exist as a Jewish State?

Israel is not an exclusive Jewish State. Therefore, we can proceed with the fact you are ignorant of the facts.

We can attest to Islamic terrorist controlled Gaza’istan as a Jew free enclave and almost entirely rid of any competing religions. We also can attest to the intentions of the other, competing Islamic terrorist enclave of the West Bank and their intentions regarding Jews.

Abbas: Arabs in Israel; No Jews in Palestine - Commentary Magazine

“While in Cairo yesterday to meet with Egypt’s new leaders, Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas let drop a few remarks about the peace negotiations with Israel that began in Washington last night. As the Times of Israel reports, Abbas left no doubt about what his vision of peace entails:

“In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli — civilian or soldier — on our lands,” Abbas said following a meeting with interim Egyptian President Adly Mansour in Cairo.



Pretty typical commentary from you Islamist fascists.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: International law or even a legal framework regarding what is legitimate resistance to occupation?
※→ P F Tinmore, Shusha, et al,

This is really Two questions.

• Peoples Existence (Right to Exist)

✪ Every human being has the inherent right to life. This right shall be protected by law. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life.
✪ All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
​

• Magnitude of secularism (Jewish State)

✪ Each State Party to the present Covenant undertakes to respect and to ensure to all individuals within its territory and subject to its jurisdiction the rights recognized in the present Covenant, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.
✪ Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right shall include freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in worship, observance, practice and teaching.
✪ No one shall be subject to coercion which would impair his freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice.
✪ Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health, or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.
​

It is Israel that is saying that only Jews have rights.

(COMMENT)

Wow, I was not aware of that. Internationally, Jews have the same rights as everyone else. Domestically speaking, under the "Right of Self-determination," internal laws may be established that may pose some limitations on the extent of some rights. But the International Community has no jurisdiction on domestic issues. Nothing prevents the establishment of a Jewish National Home.

1. Any propaganda for war shall be prohibited by law.

2. Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.
​

We know that the Arab League had addressed that

The Jews were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there. There is no historic precedence for an exclusive Jewish state.

(COMMENT)

The right of self-determination requires no tenure on the ground. The precedence was established in 1920 by the Principle Allied Powers.

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country;
​

Does Israel Have a Right to Exist as a Jewish State?

(COMMENT)

The question has been overtaken by events. Whatever the situation was before the End of the Mandate, today Israel has effective control. It s virtually impossible to politically and materially deplete areas under Israeli control and divest the Israeli influence in what is now economically prosperous areas (those developed) without causing more harm than good.

The question is not about the "right of existence." but rather, do the Arab Palestinians want to establish a peaceful, economically improving, and commercially successful relationship with Israel.

All the continuation of the conflict will do is bring ever increasing hardship over the people and their territory; that has so much potential.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[admonit]

The question is not about the "right of existence."

The question is about "the right to exist as a Jewish state, as a national home for the Jewish people".

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: International law or even a legal framework regarding what is legitimate resistance to occupation?
※→ P F Tinmore, Shusha, et al,

This is really Two questions.

• Peoples Existence (Right to Exist)

✪ Every human being has the inherent right to life. This right shall be protected by law. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life.
✪ All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
​

• Magnitude of secularism (Jewish State)

✪ Each State Party to the present Covenant undertakes to respect and to ensure to all individuals within its territory and subject to its jurisdiction the rights recognized in the present Covenant, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.
✪ Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right shall include freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in worship, observance, practice and teaching.
✪ No one shall be subject to coercion which would impair his freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice.
✪ Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health, or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.
​

It is Israel that is saying that only Jews have rights.

(COMMENT)

Wow, I was not aware of that. Internationally, Jews have the same rights as everyone else. Domestically speaking, under the "Right of Self-determination," internal laws may be established that may pose some limitations on the extent of some rights. But the International Community has no jurisdiction on domestic issues. Nothing prevents the establishment of a Jewish National Home.

1. Any propaganda for war shall be prohibited by law.

2. Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.
​

We know that the Arab League had addressed that

The Jews were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there. There is no historic precedence for an exclusive Jewish state.

(COMMENT)

The right of self-determination requires no tenure on the ground. The precedence was established in 1920 by the Principle Allied Powers.

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country;
​

Does Israel Have a Right to Exist as a Jewish State?

(COMMENT)

The question has been overtaken by events. Whatever the situation was before the End of the Mandate, today Israel has effective control. It s virtually impossible to politically and materially deplete areas under Israeli control and divest the Israeli influence in what is now economically prosperous areas (those developed) without causing more harm than good.

The question is not about the "right of existence." but rather, do the Arab Palestinians want to establish a peaceful, economically improving, and commercially successful relationship with Israel.

All the continuation of the conflict will do is bring ever increasing hardship over the people and their territory; that has so much potential.

Most Respectfully,
R

You are skipping over the issues. Do these people have the right to return home?

 

[teddyearp]

Thread's not about right of return. It was asking, no, comparing the Palestinian 'resistance' to that of WWII resistance movements.

There is no comparison as the OP of this thread fairly admitted by saying it was like comparing "apples to spaceships".

/end thread

 

[P F Tinmore]

Thread's not about right of return. It was asking, no, comparing the Palestinian 'resistance' to that of WWII resistance movements.

There is no comparison as the OP of this thread fairly admitted by saying it was like comparing "apples to spaceships".

/end thread

We need to determine if Palestinians have the right to resist. Israeli lying propagandists say that the Palestinians have no rights and their resistance is terrorism.

 

[teddyearp]

I suggest you re-read the OP then:

≤snip≥ When the Nazis occupied France, Germans were being attacked. Snipers were even shooting their occupiers at checkpoints and these men were heralded as war heroes.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: International law or even a legal framework regarding what is legitimate resistance to occupation?
※→ admonit, et al,

Understood. Let me extrapolate...

The question is not about the "right of existence."

The question is about "the right to exist as a Jewish state, as a national home for the Jewish people".

(COMMENT)

There is nothing that prohibit a Jewish State. In today's world there are a number of states that have declared the State by Religion in that fashion; Muslim countries that have incorporated Islamic law (Sharia) into a Rule of Law within those states.

​

Although there is only one Jewish State, it is not unique. There is The Jewish Autonomous Oblast (JAO) [a small political subdivision in the Russian Federation (Est 1934)]; the JAO holds the distinction of being the only autonomous oblast in the Federation.

The reason I mention this is because Israel is not the only self-governing Jewish institution, nor is it the first. The JAO set the precedent for the 20th Century; the example for future Jewish Self-Governing Institutions. (I don't suppose you are going to tell the Russian Federation that they must abolish the JAO!!!)

(SIDEBAR)

Any time we speak of self-governing institutions and the right to self-determination, the right to the existence of any government established and sovereign, is a given --- IF and ONLY IF it can be establish. Once the autonomous government is established, that government then has the right to independence and territorial integrity.

There are less than 16 Million Jews in the world; out of a total population of 8.5 Billion. That is less than 2% of the total population. The total population in the Middle East is less than 370 Million, with slightly more than 4% of then being Jewish.

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority,
it is time to pause and reflect.
------------------------------------------------------ Mark Twain
​

In today's world, it is not reasonable to assume that any Arab majority would ever consider pause and protect and preserve a culture like that of the Jewish People. In order to prevent the the Tyranny of the Majority from the abuse under the color of law, a separate venue must be established as a refuge for their kind.

“The Jews are a peculiar people:
Things permitted to other nations
are forbidden to the Jews.
----------------
Other nations when victorious on
the battlefield dictate peace terms.
• But when Israel is victorious it must sue for peace. •
-------------------------― Eric Hoffer
​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[abi]

RE: International law or even a legal framework regarding what is legitimate resistance to occupation?
※→ admonit, et al,

Understood. Let me extrapolate...

The question is not about the "right of existence."

The question is about "the right to exist as a Jewish state, as a national home for the Jewish people".

(COMMENT)

There is nothing that prohibit a Jewish State. In today's world there are a number of states that have declared the State by Religion in that fashion; Muslim countries that have incorporated Islamic law (Sharia) into a Rule of Law within those states.

View attachment 166254
​

Although there is only one Jewish State, it is not unique. There is The Jewish Autonomous Oblast (JAO) [a small political subdivision in the Russian Federation (Est 1934)]; the JAO holds the distinction of being the only autonomous oblast in the Federation.

The reason I mention this is because Israel is not the only self-governing Jewish institution, nor is it the first. It set the precedent; the example for future Jewish Self-Governing Institutions. (I don't suppose you are going to tell the Russian Federation that they must abolish the JAO!!!)

(SIDEBAR)

Any time we speak of self-governing institutions and the right to self-determination, the right to the existence of any government established and sovereign, is a given --- IF and ONLY IF it can be establish. Once the autonomous government is established, that government then has the right to independence and territorial integrity.

There are less than 16 Million Jews in the world; out of a total population of 8.5 Billion. That is less than 2% of the total population. The total population in the Middle East is less than 370 Million, with slightly more than 4% of then being Jewish.

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority,
it is time to pause and reflect.
------------------------------------------------------ Mark Twain
​

In today's world, it is not reasonable to assume that any Arab majority would ever consider pause and protect and preserve a culture like that of the Jewish People. In order to prevent the the Tyranny of the Majority from the abuse under the color of law, a separate venue must be established as a refuge for their kind.

“The Jews are a peculiar people:
Things permitted to other nations
are forbidden to the Jews.
----------------
Other nations when victorious on
the battlefield dictate peace terms.
• But when Israel is victorious it must sue for peace. •
-------------------------― Eric Hoffer
​

Most Respectfully,
R

If you watched your oppressors demolish your home and your entire town and were then forced to live as a second class citizen watching your oppressors build their town where yours just stood, what would you do personally to fight for the freedom of your people?

That really is the topic here.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: International law or even a legal framework regarding what is legitimate resistance to occupation?
※→ abi, et al,

The question: "what would you do personally to fight for the freedom of your people?"

The question demonstrates the attitude that the Arab Palestinian has had from the very beginning. The preferred method of conflict resolution is "conflict (fight)." How is that working out?

If you watched your oppressors demolish your home and your entire town and were then forced to live as a second class citizen watching your oppressors build their town where yours just stood, what would you do personally to fight for the freedom of your people?

That really is the topic here.

(COMMENT)

The Hostile Arab Palestinians have done their very best t create a hostile environment. BUT just imagine how much better off the Palestinians would be if the Arab League had not triggered the 1967 Six Day War?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[admonit]

RE: International law or even a legal framework regarding what is legitimate resistance to occupation?
※→ admonit, et al,

Understood. Let me extrapolate...

The question is not about the "right of existence."

The question is about "the right to exist as a Jewish state, as a national home for the Jewish people".

There is nothing that prohibit a Jewish State.

It's about recognition, not prohibition.

In today's world there are a number of states that have declared the State by Religion in that fashion;

There is no state religion in Israel.

Although there is only one Jewish State, it is not unique. There is The Jewish Autonomous Oblast (JAO) [a small political subdivision in the Russian Federation (Est 1934)]; the JAO holds the distinction of being the only autonomous oblast in the Federation.

The reason I mention this is because Israel is not the only self-governing Jewish institution, nor is it the first. The JAO set the precedent for the 20th Century; the example for future Jewish Self-Governing Institutions. (I don't suppose you are going to tell the Russian Federation that they must abolish the JAO!!!)

Jews constitute about 1% of The Jewish Autonomous Oblast. It's a joke.

 

[abi]

RE: International law or even a legal framework regarding what is legitimate resistance to occupation?
※→ abi, et al,

The question: "what would you do personally to fight for the freedom of your people?"

The question demonstrates the attitude that the Arab Palestinian has had from the very beginning. The preferred method of conflict resolution is "conflict (fight)." How is that working out?

If you watched your oppressors demolish your home and your entire town and were then forced to live as a second class citizen watching your oppressors build their town where yours just stood, what would you do personally to fight for the freedom of your people?

That really is the topic here.

(COMMENT)

The Hostile Arab Palestinians have done their very best t create a hostile environment. BUT just imagine how much better off the Palestinians would be if the Arab League had not triggered the 1967 Six Day War?

Most Respectfully,
R

Thanks for the update, now answer the question:

If you watched your oppressors demolish your home and your entire town and were then forced to live as a second class citizen watching your oppressors build their town where yours just stood, what would you do personally to fight for the freedom of your people?

That really is the topic here.

 

[Shusha]

Well, what you SHOULD be doing is:

1. Recognizing the rights of the people you are in conflict with.
2. Forming a viable, successful, representative government.
3. Building an infrastructure and economy.
4. Negotiating borders and mutually beneficial agreements.


Slaughtering a few Jews here and there really isn't doing much for the Arab Palestinians.

 

[abi]

Well, what you SHOULD be doing is:

1. Recognizing the rights of the people you are in conflict with.
2. Forming a viable, successful, representative government.
3. Building an infrastructure and economy.
4. Negotiating borders and mutually beneficial agreements.


Slaughtering a few Jews here and there really isn't doing much for the Arab Palestinians.

So, that is how you would handle being occupied and watching your people slaughtered and expelled, and watching your homes destroyed, and watching your captors build towns where yours once stood?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The question demonstrates the attitude that the Arab Palestinian has had from the very beginning. The preferred method of conflict resolution is "conflict (fight)." How is that working out?

What are the options?

 

[Shusha]

Well, what you SHOULD be doing is:

1. Recognizing the rights of the people you are in conflict with.
2. Forming a viable, successful, representative government.
3. Building an infrastructure and economy.
4. Negotiating borders and mutually beneficial agreements.


Slaughtering a few Jews here and there really isn't doing much for the Arab Palestinians.

So, that is how you would handle being occupied and watching your people slaughtered and expelled, and watching your homes destroyed, and watching your captors build towns where yours once stood?

Damn straight it is. Look at Israel. That is EXACTLY what she has done. Seems to be working WONDERS for her.

 

[Shusha]

The question demonstrates the attitude that the Arab Palestinian has had from the very beginning. The preferred method of conflict resolution is "conflict (fight)." How is that working out?

What are the options?

Here's a thought. How about negotiating a peace treaty?