Is homosexuality a choice, a mental illness or something simply inherent?

[emilynghiem]

In extreme cases of trauma, people can have all sorts of reactions to it. I would agree with that. I think you're talking about a pretty miniscule percent of gays though here.

Yes, and gays are a small % of the population (estimated 4%?)
and yet public policy, marriage and business laws are all being debated
on how to accommodate gays without imposing on people's beliefs either way.

Obviously size doesn't matter over principle.
If it affects a small % it still must be accounted for to be fair.

Or else we wouldn't even be discussing this
if that small % didn't matter because it's so minor.

Note: even if it's just a small % the same PROCESS that helps
them also helps all people

BS. On the issue of gay marriage, they are not asking for accommodation, they are asking for the bigoted laws against gay marriages to be stricken.

Hi [MENTION=43831]RKMBrown[/MENTION]
I AGREE that laws banning gay marriage are unconstitutional.
Likewise are laws IMPOSING it; so the laws must be written neutrally
so they neither BAN nor IMPOSE on any religiously held beliefs about marriage etc.

That is NOT the process I was talking about here, sorry.

I was talking about the SPIRITUAL PROCESS of resolving and healing
conflicts and unforgiveness/division related to them.

(Yes, this same process helps all people even discussing this issue.
But that wasn't the main focus either)

The "natural spiritual healing" process that can be researched and proven
helps people heal of cancer, schizophrenia, and other diseases and conditions
not just sexual abuse, addiction etc as with homosexual people who changed.
(NOTE: not all people change to heterosexual relations after healing; the
common pattern is that people restore or make peace with their natural selves
and relationships, regardless of gender orientation religion etc and do not necessarily convert)

So I was saying there is a greater purpose than just "targeting homosexuality"
The real purpose is to resolve and heal a lot more issues and real problems.
Using the same process of forgiveness involved in "natural spiritual healing"

 

[emilynghiem]

If a show of hands isn't an appropriate way to determine mental illness, than they were wrong in the 50s for using that method to add homosexuality to the list of mental illnesses.

Wouldn't that make them equally wrong for taking it off the list using the same method?

In his book on "Homosexuality can it be healed" Dr. Francis MacNutt
faults the political agenda and pressure on these groups, which affected the lack of research into effective methods by which people changed freely not coerced through spiritual therapy.

On the other hand, even if spiritual changes and process do not count as "mental illness" so it is good not to confuse it with a "mental disorder",
the spiritual process changes and healing are valid and should be the focus of studies.

Dr. Scott Peck recognized the importance and impact of medical research, to define and develop a field for treating cases of spiritual afflictions
such as schizophrenia with demonic deliverance that he observed worked effectively on otherwise incureable patients. Since this same
spiritual healing process helps with a broad range of diseases and disorder, why not study that instead of arguing over homosexuality?

Why only focus on the therapy that doesn't work or the terms that don't apply.
why not research the therapy that does work so new terms can be developed to distinguish these cases.

 

[GISMYS]

if a show of hands isn't an appropriate way to determine mental illness, than they were wrong in the 50s for using that method to add homosexuality to the list of mental illnesses.

wouldn't that make them equally wrong for taking it off the list using the same method?

in his book on "homosexuality can it be healed" dr. Francis macnutt
faults the political agenda and pressure on these groups, which affected the lack of research into effective methods by which people changed freely not coerced through spiritual therapy.

On the other hand, even if spiritual changes and process do not count as "mental illness" so it is good not to confuse it with a "mental disorder",
the spiritual process changes and healing are valid and should be the focus of studies.

Dr. Scott peck recognized the importance and impact to define and develop a field for treating cases of spiritual afflictions such as schizophrenia with demonic deliverance that he observed worked effecgively on otherwise icureable patents

all sin is a mental illiness and god says those that deny him are fools.

 

[emilynghiem]

There are a number of variables that would be involved in the 50% match in orientation , the most obvious being identical nurture / upbringing.

You cannot isolate the nurture/upbringing from the spiritual connection between family members that could also be causing it. The spiritual factor is always present and cannot be removed from the equation to study the others by themselves.

No matter if we point to genetics or environment or even free choice,
the spiritual factor that would influence these levels is always present.
So it can cause exceptions: nothing in the genetics or social upbringing may cause it,
but if the person is spiritually born to experience homosexual relations then it happens, and it may or may not be seen by that person as a choice. And it may or may not change.

some will say it was a choice for them and some say they tried to change but could not because it wasn't their choice. And both are true for those people.
for others it wasn't a choice but after spiritual healing they could chose otherwise. while other who go through healing still stay the same and its not their choice but at least they came to peace and forgave the conflicts over it so that part was healed.

[MENTION=46353]GreenBean[/MENTION] can you find and post anything where someone described their process of change as a mental illness? isn't it more often described as a spiritual change?
===================================

The second and equally plausible factor would be the possibilty of a genetic factor that effects ones pre-disposition and susceptibilty to acquiring homosexual traits .

It is believed that insanity runs in certain families - they have genetic deficiencies that would leave them predisposed to such ailments.

Another example would be Native Americans and alcohol , it is pretty well established that "fire-water" - alcohol has a different effect on amerindians than it does on caucasians and negroes - they are more prone to alocoholism - that doesn't mean they are genetically alcoholic - just more prone to it - they make the choice to drink or not to drink , just as Gays have the choice to lead a perverted sick existence or not to.

again both factors still occur along with the spiritual factors of why people are born to live certain experiences.
if people are not meant to have those type of spiritual relations or process
then no amount of genetics, predisposition and/or susceptibility is going to cause them to.
the genetics/predisposition/susceptibility/environment you could cite as the causes
are still caused by the spiritual level first. So that is the cause and the rest are part of the manifestation process.

as forNative Americans, the work done on spiritual healing focuses on
generational sickness and injury passed down until it is healed by forgiveness
until the spiritual injury and sickness is healed, yes, it is common to turn to
gambling or drug addictions; but the "susceptibility" is due to unforgiven issues.
If that is healed on the spiritual level, whatever is genetic is no longer the issue.

GB what you describe affects all humanity not just Natives who suffered tribal warfare curses or genocide
aslo the Black populatinos suffer from this; these generations that have genocide in their history are more pronounced and expressed.
the white populations carry karma from their ancestors but it tends to be more individualized, not generalized as a pattern
unless consider "angry white men" as a pattern.

the common factors are forgiveness or unforgiven issues/conflicts people carry
or karma/abuses past down from previous generations

that affects everyone's behavior. these laws of spiritual karma.
this is what i mean that the same process of healing applies to all people.

 

[emilynghiem]

all sin is a mental illiness and god says those that deny him are fools.

Yes, see msg to GreenBean that once you start picking apart what causes what,
then we all have our own sins/karma affecting our biases and behavior.

All humans are equally crazy, I can't argue with that. Agreed! ;-)

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Only a gay person can answer this question..............

I think the people trying to answer this without being gay are a hoot!

"Oh, It's certainly a choice because........." or "It's not a choice something ...."


Are you gay? Why are you answer questions for them? Why are you the professional of gay behavior? Ask a gay if it's a choice. Stop answering for them..

Unless of course you thought you were gay and you went through the religion anti-gay training camp that trains people who thought they were gay to be not gay..........etc...

You do realize that most Preists that raped young boys only did it because they were told they didn't have to "release the load". Puberty and not releasing your load makes your balls turn into your brains.

Just rub one out! Only specific versions of the Bible said don't jack off. It's not perverted, it's necessary. There should be a pressure valve.

Why can only gays answer that question? Is there something about homosexuality that makes it significantly different than heterosexuality on some fundamental level? If so, what is it?

You do realize that you have no idea what you are talking about, don't you?

 

[emilynghiem]

[MENTION=47936]AntiParty[/MENTION]
I agree with you if you mean only a gay person can answer for themselves, but
1. Even a gay person cannot speak for all other gay people.
Each person can speak for themselves, let others do the same,
and learn to deal with the fact that some answers are not going to match, even after reconciling, we can still disagree and not believe the same things.
2. If I cite what gay people said for themselves, I don't have to be gay to believe them and repeat them. As long as I don't project that as truth for "all people" (which is wrong even if a gay person makes a false generalization as well).
3. It's the projection and generalization that causes errors and conflicts.
You don't have to be gay to express the truth.
And gay people can make errors also with generalizations.

Only a gay person can answer this question..............

I think the people trying to answer this without being gay are a hoot!

"Oh, It's certainly a choice because........." or "It's not a choice something ...."


Are you gay? Why are you answer questions for them? Why are you the professional of gay behavior? Ask a gay if it's a choice. Stop answering for them..

Unless of course you thought you were gay and you went through the religion anti-gay training camp that trains people who thought they were gay to be not gay..........etc...

You do realize that most Preists that raped young boys only did it because they were told they didn't have to "release the load". Puberty and not releasing your load makes your balls turn into your brains.

Just rub one out! Only specific versions of the Bible said don't jack off. It's not perverted, it's necessary. There should be a pressure valve.

Priests who raped nuns in Africa because they didn't want AIDS from natives
aren't going to be helped by just rubbing one out. they need deeper therapy for their sickness on a spiritual level not just placating symptoms.

 

[RKMBrown]

Yes, and gays are a small % of the population (estimated 4%?)
and yet public policy, marriage and business laws are all being debated
on how to accommodate gays without imposing on people's beliefs either way.

Obviously size doesn't matter over principle.
If it affects a small % it still must be accounted for to be fair.

Or else we wouldn't even be discussing this
if that small % didn't matter because it's so minor.

Note: even if it's just a small % the same PROCESS that helps
them also helps all people

BS. On the issue of gay marriage, they are not asking for accommodation, they are asking for the bigoted laws against gay marriages to be stricken.

Hi [MENTION=43831]RKMBrown[/MENTION]
I AGREE that laws banning gay marriage are unconstitutional.
Likewise are laws IMPOSING it; so the laws must be written neutrally
so they neither BAN nor IMPOSE on any religiously held beliefs about marriage etc.

That is NOT the process I was talking about here, sorry.

I was talking about the SPIRITUAL PROCESS of resolving and healing
conflicts and unforgiveness/division related to them.

(Yes, this same process helps all people even discussing this issue.
But that wasn't the main focus either)

The "natural spiritual healing" process that can be researched and proven
helps people heal of cancer, schizophrenia, and other diseases and conditions
not just sexual abuse, addiction etc as with homosexual people who changed.
(NOTE: not all people change to heterosexual relations after healing; the
common pattern is that people restore or make peace with their natural selves
and relationships, regardless of gender orientation religion etc and do not necessarily convert)

So I was saying there is a greater purpose than just "targeting homosexuality"
The real purpose is to resolve and heal a lot more issues and real problems.
Using the same process of forgiveness involved in "natural spiritual healing"

[MENTION=22295]emilynghiem[/MENTION], repectifully, I'd like to point out that calling out homosexuals as having a some type of condition that needs to be healed, spiritually or not, is akin to me saying people like you have a condition that needs to be healed, that of using the bible as a weapon, a stone if you will, to disparage homosexuals for their sexual preference.

 

[GreenBean]

There are a number of variables that would be involved in the 50% match in orientation , the most obvious being identical nurture / upbringing.

You cannot isolate the nurture/upbringing from the spiritual connection between family members that could also be causing it. The spiritual factor is always present and cannot be removed from the equation to study the others by themselves.

No matter if we point to genetics or environment or even free choice,
the spiritual factor that would influence these levels is always present.
So it can cause exceptions: nothing in the genetics or social upbringing may cause it,
but if the person is spiritually born to experience homosexual relations then it happens, and it may or may not be seen by that person as a choice. And it may or may not change.

some will say it was a choice for them and some say they tried to change but could not because it wasn't their choice. And both are true for those people.
for others it wasn't a choice but after spiritual healing they could chose otherwise. while other who go through healing still stay the same and its not their choice but at least they came to peace and forgave the conflicts over it so that part was healed.

[MENTION=46353]GreenBean[/MENTION] can you find and post anything where someone described their process of change as a mental illness? isn't it more often described as a spiritual change?
===================================

The second and equally plausible factor would be the possibilty of a genetic factor that effects ones pre-disposition and susceptibilty to acquiring homosexual traits .

It is believed that insanity runs in certain families - they have genetic deficiencies that would leave them predisposed to such ailments.

Another example would be Native Americans and alcohol , it is pretty well established that "fire-water" - alcohol has a different effect on amerindians than it does on caucasians and negroes - they are more prone to alocoholism - that doesn't mean they are genetically alcoholic - just more prone to it - they make the choice to drink or not to drink , just as Gays have the choice to lead a perverted sick existence or not to.

again both factors still occur along with the spiritual factors of why people are born to live certain experiences.
if people are not meant to have those type of spiritual relations or process
then no amount of genetics, predisposition and/or susceptibility is going to cause them to.
the genetics/predisposition/susceptibility/environment you could cite as the causes
are still caused by the spiritual level first. So that is the cause and the rest are part of the manifestation process.

as forNative Americans, the work done on spiritual healing focuses on
generational sickness and injury passed down until it is healed by forgiveness
until the spiritual injury and sickness is healed, yes, it is common to turn to
gambling or drug addictions; but the "susceptibility" is due to unforgiven issues.
If that is healed on the spiritual level, whatever is genetic is no longer the issue.

GB what you describe affects all humanity not just Natives who suffered tribal warfare curses or genocide
aslo the Black populatinos suffer from this; these generations that have genocide in their history are more pronounced and expressed.
the white populations carry karma from their ancestors but it tends to be more individualized, not generalized as a pattern
unless consider "angry white men" as a pattern.

the common factors are forgiveness or unforgiven issues/conflicts people carry
or karma/abuses past down from previous generations

that affects everyone's behavior. these laws of spiritual karma.
this is what i mean that the same process of healing applies to all people.

can you find and post anything where someone described their process of change as a mental illness? isn't it more often described as a spiritual change?

Emily - I'm sure you were perfectly capable of finding these yourself -although I have the upmost respect for Christians and Christian Morals i do not involve myself in any way with the religion as I would find it be hypocritical in relation to my personal beliefs . But I have listed a few cases where Ex-Gays credit what you would consider to be Spiritual Healing with their recovery, I hope it helps you :>

People Can Change

People Can Change

Testimony - Maria - OneByOne

[ame=http://youtu.be/J_cff7paPs8]Ex-gay Testimony - Melissa Fryrear - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Noomi]

First you must WANT to overcome sexual perversion, TURN TO GOD,GOD AND GOD'S WORD ARE THERE TO HELP YOU OVERCOME ANY SIN.

That didn't help all my sinning last night.

 

[emilynghiem]

Emily - I'm sure you were perfectly capable of finding these yourself -although I have the upmost respect for Christians and Christian Morals i do not involve myself in any way with the religion as I would find it be hypocritical in relation to my personal beliefs . But I have listed a few cases where Ex-Gays credit what you would consider to be Spiritual Healing with their recovery, I hope it helps you :>

People Can Change

People Can Change

Testimony - Maria - OneByOne

Ex-gay Testimony - Melissa Fryrear - YouTube

Thanks GreenBean these are very good descriptions of the process these people went through.

1. I noticed the mention of spiritual change

2. the only mention of any "mental illness" was an indirect reference to
"sexual addiction" as ONE of three elements (and "sexual addiction"
applies to either orientation and is not uniquely tied to homosexuality)

Homosexuality is not an affliction like mental retardation or cancer; it is a group of problems, which together produce homosexual attractions and behavior. Each of these problems must be dealt with individually. Here are the three problems that God helped me deal with -- my three miracles.

3. the other testimonies did not have this because they did not have this same
sexual addiction. so this is not a necessary element in all people's experiences.

Thanks GreenBean
these are more effective and clear descriptions than the examples I found.
it is different for each person, so that is why I refrain from labeling them
all the same like an "addiction compulsion or illness"

if someone says it's natural and doesn't change, I believe them, too
and that should not negate these experiences from gay people who
found the opposite that it wasn't natural for them and they were able to change

the common factor I see is that people who come to terms and share
express it as a spiritual process or spiritually born and natural for them.
so spiritual references are a common term, but not mental illness, in these testimonies

4. Hey I couldn't find the testimony/article I was searching for online,
about a gay Catholic Priest who came out to his congregation, testifying
he believed he was born gay in order to serve in a celibate capacity
where it would be clear his purpose was to focus on the church and not
pursuing a marriage and family.

but I did find this on the website you referred:

http://peoplecanchange.com/stories/richard.php

this seems to be an example of sexual abuse
contributing to the man's reported experiences
with homosexuality and with healing the abuses
to overcome the same. he makes it clear he did
not get any help from traditional professional counseling.
so how can you expect that traditional field to quantify
and describe a process they don't know enough about to help someone like him?

 

[emilynghiem]

repectifully, I'd like to point out that calling out homosexuals as having a some type of condition that needs to be healed, spiritually or not, is akin to me saying people like you have a condition that needs to be healed, that of using the bible as a weapon, a stone if you will, to disparage homosexuals for their sexual preference.

Hi [MENTION=43831]RKMBrown[/MENTION] this is a common misunderstanding and objection
but is not what I am saying or mean. I am talking about the spiritual process that isn't
about homosexuality per se but applies to all people and other types of cases totally unrelated to homosexuality.
it happens to be the same process people use who have changed and no longer consider themselves homosexual.
But that is NOT my focus but on the general healing process that applies to all people, so the target is NOT a focus on gays.
sorry this isn't clear.

if you read GreenBean's links to the testimonies of people who have changed their lives
and their lifestyles with it, they do NOT refer to this as an "illness" to be cured either.
they speak for themselves only, and that was what I was trying to respect, sorry.

They describe it in spiritual terms as a spiritual process of changing and/or healing
of past abuses that contributed.

these experiences are NOT TRUE for all people.
I only read one person who described having a sexual addiction
but this still does not apply to others, only him.

I tried to find the testimony of a Gay Priest
who expresses his spiritual experience and process of coming out
as accepting his purpose and calling in life to be celibate
so he can serve the church as his family.

So each person is different.

Even the people whose lives were healed and changed
do not refer to themselves as mentally ill.

sorry this wasn't clear. each person is different.
I was referring to people who did change their lives.

So whatever they call it, I was trying to describe it closer to the terms they use.
This still doesn't apply to all people, who can only describe their own lives.

 

[emilynghiem]

ME FORGIVE???? NO!! IT IS GOD'S forgivness that is needed by sexual perverts and GOD will forgive those that confess and repent and HE will wash them clean BUT they must first admit their sin IS sin,confess and repent and seek to stop doing evil.

Dear [MENTION=42952]GISMYS[/MENTION] I agree if you mean "you cannot repent on behalf of others," as only they can repent and ask forgiveness;
however, this also explains why you should NOT harp on the sins of others you cannot change,
but look to your OWN sins of unforgiveness that you DO answer to God for:

Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
14"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

 

[emilynghiem]

.

by the time we develop that,
we would already have figured out how to prevent
karmic conditions from reincarnating in the first place
so we don't NEED to play with genetics to resolve spiritual causes

 

[Inevitable]

Thanks [MENTION=49586]Inevitable[/MENTION]
Since natural healing is very broad to describe (I did try, sorry if I missed the mark on it)
please describe the spiritual healing you have no problem with.

I'd rather go with yours which I trust would only be positive and true

[MENTION=22295]emilynghiem[/MENTION]Go with my what exactly?

 

[I.P.Freely]

I am very proud to be British. One of the reasons is that we give asylum to gays who are being persecuted.

 

[Inevitable]

Wouldn't that make them equally wrong for taking it off the list using the same method?

Not necessarily if it only was added because of popularity than it was wrong for it to bethere inthe first place.

So it's right - when it suits your purposes , but wrong when it works against them !? That's pretty Childish - don't you think ??

They were wrong in thefirst place,they layer corrected their error.

 

[GreenBean]

Not necessarily if it only was added because of popularity than it was wrong for it to bethere inthe first place.

So it's right - when it suits your purposes , but wrong when it works against them !? That's pretty Childish - don't you think ??

They were wrong in thefirst place,they layer corrected their error.

Yes okay they "Layer" corrected it - uh hmmm - so what else did they do in Layers ?

Perhaps you should correct some of your errors - you seem to have them in abundance. Begginning with your choice of lifestyle

 

[GreenBean]

I am very proud to be British. One of the reasons is that we give asylum to gays who are being persecuted.

Who needs the UK when you've got San Fran Sisco

 

[GISMYS]

I am very proud to be British. One of the reasons is that we give asylum to gays who are being persecuted.

Who needs the UK when you've got San Fran Sisco

YES! WE HAVE OUR OWN sodom and gomorrah here in the USA , GOD have mercy!!