Is homosexuality a choice, a mental illness or something simply inherent?

[emilynghiem]

Those that choose to reject GOD AND the truth OF GOD'S WORD have good reason to live in fear now and on judgment day!! Only those that confess and repent and accept JESUS as their Lord AND SAVIOR have NO reason to fear as they are sons OF ALMIGHTY GOD!!

Yes [MENTION=42952]GISMYS[/MENTION] and of all other Christians joining us here, I see Inevitable and Kaz and others called here
DO seek Justice and are committed to defend Justice and Truth as you and I are, as fellow believers. May Christ join us in fellowship and remove anything preventing perfect unity in Christ or by conscience.

What separates us is misunderstanding so that we "fear" other's intent is to mislead or cause harm.

Inevitable thought I promoted harm or falsehood. And you also thought I was trying to dissuade people from God's Word and deceive people as Satan.

How can we REMOVE this fear and all causes of such problems, so that we AGREE we are all seeking to establish and enforce Universal Truth that is one and the same with God's Word?
The more we can AGREE in spirit first, surely more correction and clarity will follow. I have no doubt we all ask this, but don't understand how our neighbor is helping when it appears the opposite!

GISMYS I believe in spiritual healing prayer to remove all obstacles, any unforgiven "stumbling blocks" from our minds, paths, and relationships separating us from God's perfect love and truth, that we may be made perfect, whole, and one with God through Christ Jesus.

May I ask you to please continue uplifting all people here in unifying prayer, in forgiving correcting and perfecting all thoughts and words and perceptions in our minds, so that God's perfect love and wisdom can flow freely to join us all as one with God's truth.

Thank you GISMYS please continue your prayers for complete unity correction and perfection that the truth may be revealed in whole, where that whole truth is greater than the sum of the parts each of us brings to the table. In Jesus name, Amen and Thanks!

 

[GISMYS]

Those that choose to reject GOD AND the truth OF GOD'S WORD have good reason to live in fear now and on judgment day!! Only those that confess and repent and accept JESUS as their Lord AND SAVIOR have NO reason to fear as they are sons OF ALMIGHTY GOD!!

Yes [MENTION=42952]GISMYS[/MENTION] and of the fellow Christians joining us here, I see Inevitable and Kaz DO seek Justice and are committed to defend Justice and Truth.

What separates us is misunderstanding so we "fear" other's intent is to mislead or cause harm.

Inevitable thought I promoted harm. And you also thought I was trying to dissuade people from God's Word and deceive people as Satan.

How can we REMOVE this fear and problem, so that we AGREE we are all seeking to establish and enforce Universal Truth that is one and the same with God's Word?

GISMYS I believe in spiritual healing prayer to remove all obstacle, any unforgiven "stumbling blocks" from our minds, paths, and relationships, that we may be made
perfect, whole, and one with God through Christ Jesus.

May I ask you to please continue uplifting all people here in unifying prayer, in forgiving correcting and perfecting all thoughts and words and perceptions in our minds, so that God's perfect love and wisdom can flow freely to join us all as one with God's truth.

Thank you GISMYS please continue your prayers for complete unity correction and perfection that the truth may be revealed in whole, where that whole truth is greater than the sum of the parts each of us brings to the table. In Jesus name, Amen and Thanks!

So you are trying to make "new age" spiritual healing clap trap your god??

 

[emilynghiem]

you are assuning they need to be natural healed because you feel their behavior needs to be healed

I think you and others are taking words out of context.
If you read all my other messages and posts
I made it clear that all cases are different for different people.

So NO there are many people I trust when they say it is natural for them,
then there is nothing to be healed. I take this position for granted as obvious,
so that's why I don't go around preaching it. Of course what is natural for people is not going to change.

Those people are completely different from the ones who
* weren't happy with their heterosexual relationships and changed
* weren't happy with their homosexuality or bisexuality and changed their minds
* weren't happy being female in a male body, so they change their body

All people are different,
so no I do not believe in targeting homosexuality as something to be changed or healed.

If you are projecting those fears, it is coming from you, not me,
because that is NOT what I said, NOT what I mean, and NOT what I believe in.

Please quit projecting things on me I don't believe in.
Sorry if this wasn't clear before, please let me know if this clarifies it now!

 

[Katzndogz]

Homosexuality is a compulsion like hand washing or hoarding.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If a show of hands isn't an appropriate way to determine mental illness, than they were wrong in the 50s for using that method to add homosexuality to the list of mental illnesses.

Wouldn't that make them equally wrong for taking it off the list using the same method?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The APA lists no known causes for homosexual, thoughthere are some hypotheses. What do you think and why?

when you first became aware of sex... did you have that funny feeling we all have towards the person you fell for the first time or did you choose the person you fell for ... that's the real question you should ask .... nobody ever chooses what sex experiance they want

I know hundreds of people who would disagree with you. How do you explain them?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The APA lists no known causes for homosexual, thoughthere are some hypotheses. What do you think and why?

when you first became aware of sex... did you have that funny feeling we all have towards the person you fell for the first time or did you choose the person you fell for ... that's the real question you should ask .... nobody ever chooses what sex experiance they want

I agree with you, I don't believe it is something somebody just chooses.

Didn't you jump all over me when I pointed out you were wrong about it not being a choice? Didn't you claim that you didn't actually hold that position?

 

[GISMYS]

ITS CHOICE!!! YOU allow lust in your heart then you choose to live in sin or you choose to obey GOD'S LAWS!! ALL YOUR CHOICE!

 

[Inevitable]

Hi [MENTION=49586]Inevitable[/MENTION] I'm sorry I misunderstood

1. If you believe in spiritual healing and natural healing I am referring to the same thing.
So we both agree this approach is not a problem. Sorry for that misunderstanding.

2. If you are using "conversion therapy" to mean ONLY the abusive fraudulent coercive practices, I agree those have nothing to do with natural/spiritual healing.
so I agree with that part. However, the term cannot be used so broadly that it BANS or punishes the practice of spiritual/natural healing and the free choice of people to apply it to their own lives.
3. I do know of people who have done healing using natural/spiritual methods to help people change their lives and no longer have homosexual desires attractions or relationships.
(My friend Olivia helped a young woman heal of the cycle of abuse to end the pattern of abusing people in lesbian relationships. Another man she helped was freed of heroin addiction and a pedophile addiction. NO, she does not go around targeting homosexuals; if someone asks for help, she helps, so it's usually cancer cases or problem/abusive relationships that she focused on the most. Her team has been working with prominent gay activists and have no problem understanding that "they are the way they are" and that's between them and God. As long as they are healed, that's God business. Maybe you are right, there ARE people lying to themselves and really not changing but covering it up. But that means they are NOT fully healed. When people are fully healed, I go by what they say because they have nothing to hide; so that's what I base my conclusions on, where I found people have different answers and paths.)

What terms do you propose to distinguish these: the spiritual from the abusive fraud?
I totally agree to stop all fraud and abuse/malpractice
and support the spiritual/natural healing to replace and prevent that from going on.
If people have access to the effective natural therapy
that's the best way I know to totally get rid of anything to the contrary.

[MENTION=22295]emilynghiem[/MENTION]
nothing can be brought to conversion therapy to make it legitimate. I don't for one momentbelieve that people can be raped gay or abused into homosexuality so there is no way to "heal" from it. conversion therapy is pure quackery and it serves only one purpose and that it's too torture homosexuals into confirming to dark ages versions of Christianity.

I have no problem with spiritual healing, HOW DARE YOU shove such false words into my mouth.

I asked you several times what natural healing was and you havecompletely failed to answer that question.

I have also mentioned that homosexuality isn't something anybody needs to be healed from. I don't buy for a moment that it is asymptom of abuse or rape, youhaven't made that case, you have purposely avoided that statement.

I am going to continue to post these statements you avoid and call you out on false claims until you adress them and stop making them.

A. I don't agree with targeting homosexuality as something that needs to be healed from.
YOU kept saying that, putting words in MY MOUTH, so that's why I didn't repeat them, because I don't agree and that was coming from you.

I SAID that I listen to people and if they say it is natural for them, I believe them!
I thought I made that clear. I let and trust people to figure out for themselves what is or what is not right for them, and I support them in sticking to what is natural for them.

B. NO, I did not mean to make any false claims nor purposely avoided anything.

Where you put words into my mouth I don't believe and didn't say, of course
I'm not going to repeat that because I CAN'T EVEN RELATE TO THAT NOTION.
That is totally OUTSIDE AND FOREIGN TO my understanding to "target homosexuality as something that needs to be fixed/healed/changed or whatever"

Wasn't trying to avoid it, just don't relate to it AT ALL.
Like asking me "do you still beat your wife" when I don't even have a wife.

I was asking what natural healing was.
[MENTION=22295]emilynghiem[/MENTION]

 

[Inevitable]

when you first became aware of sex... did you have that funny feeling we all have towards the person you fell for the first time or did you choose the person you fell for ... that's the real question you should ask .... nobody ever chooses what sex experiance they want

I agree with you, I don't believe it is something somebody just chooses.

Didn't you jump all over me when I pointed out you were wrong about it not being a choice? Didn't you claim that you didn't actually hold that position?

I don't believe it's a choice. No, you and I never spoke about that.

 

[Inevitable]

If a show of hands isn't an appropriate way to determine mental illness, than they were wrong in the 50s for using that method to add homosexuality to the list of mental illnesses.

Wouldn't that make them equally wrong for taking it off the list using the same method?

Not necessarily if it only was added because of popularity than it was wrong for it to bethere inthe first place.

 

[itfitzme]

The APA lists no known causes for homosexual, thoughthere are some hypotheses. What do you think and why?

Personally, I don't care. It doesn't have any relevance to my life.

I'm guessing, though, that the reason the APA doesn't list a cause is because the APA deals with diseases and it's not and it isn't a disease.

 

[GreenBean]

Dear GreenBean: Thanks for the effort and post to get the thread back on topic.

I still argue it is more a SPIRITUAL manifestation, as part of the process of resolving karma.

So I agree with you it is NOT solely genetic
(though the HIGH 50% match in orientation in twins is still interpreted as showing a TENDENCY even though the lack of 100% match means it is not solely genetic)

But do NOT agree it is necessarily a "mental illness or mental disorder,"
NOT UNLESS someone has been successfully treated as such and reports it as such.

The people I know who benefited from therapy and changed their behavior/relationships
refer more to SPIRITUAL issues and changes they went through, NOT MENTAL ILLNESS.

[MENTION=46353]GreenBean[/MENTION] if you can find such people who AGREE it is Mental Illness to them because this approach helped them "recover" then fine,
I accept whatever description people use for their own experiences.

Can you cite cases of people who DESCRIBE THEMSELVES and THEIR EXPERIENCES as "Mental Illness"?
And who benefited from this approach? If it works for people, fine. Can you find references to people saying they have a "Mental Illness",
and compare how common this description is in relation to the number of people who describe their experiences as a "spiritual change" or as either a "choice"/"not a choice"?

The APA lists no known causes for homosexual, thoughthere are some hypotheses. What do you think and why?

As with all threads this one seems to have wandered off in 15 different directions -

The OP : Is homosexuality a choice, a mental illness or something simply inherent?

Point 1 - Is it inerited ?. ] Inherent = Genetic , Something One is Born With.

A.}No Valid argument nor viable theory exists to suggest that Homosexuality is inherited or something one is born with -nearly all factual data to date indicates it is an acquired trait - although through no fault of the victims [Gays] - it is believed to be [In most cases] the result of Early Childhood Trauma. Study after Study by unbiased and objective researchers adds weight to this argument continuoslly.

One 1992 study found that 37% of homosexual and bisexual men attending sexually transmitted disease clinics had been encouraged or forced to have sexual contact before age 19 with an older or more powerful partner. The median age of first contact was 10 years old. - Multiple Aspects of Sexual Orientation: Prevalence and Sociodemographic Correlates in a New Zealand National Survey

Self-reported childhood and adolescent sexual abuse among adult homosexual bisexual men.

The Twin Studies :

Eight major studies of identical twins in Australia, the U.S., and Scandinavia during the last two decades all arrive at the same conclusion: gays were not born that way.

Identical twin studies prove homosexuality is not genetic

However Geneics is quite possibly a minor factor in determining ones susceptibility to the Mental illness or Homosexuality.

So therefore - back to the OP - YES - Homosexuality is a choice , not allways a consious choice - and certainly never an intelligent one - but a choice none the less.

Is it Inherited ? -NO - No scientific data exists that would supprot that argument It is not INherited - allthough susceptibility to it may have minor genetic correlation.


Point 2.] Is it a Mental Illness .

Homosexuality is an unhealthy and self destructive mental condition- harmful not only to the homosexuals themselves, but society as a whole. The strongest argument the gay activists have for not considering Homosexuality to be an illness is the fact that the APA removed it from their DSM - list of Menatl Illnesses back in the 70s - but that move has been proven over and over and over again to be a political move with no scientific basis of fact , nor even plausible theory to support it's no longer being considered a Mental Ilness .

Even the Author of the Motion to have it de-listed Dr. Nicholas Cummings, has stated that the motion he wrote back in the 70s was a grave mistake - and that data since that time has indeed proven it is a Mental Illness that can and has been treated successfully.

The APA itself has prettyy close to zero credibility in the scientific community , although their political clout is tremendous and devestating to the careers of all who oppose them or their socio-fascist political agenda.


POINT 1 - Is it Inherited -NO
POINT 2 - Is it a Mental Ilness - YES

So long as nobody has any plausible intelligent facts to present to the contrary - I do believe we can consider this matter closed .

???? What? How can this be closed?
When the APA and other medical professionals, psychiatric and therapy practictioners,
and all the public, including the pro-gay and anti-gay communities ALL AGREE,
then MAYBE we can consider it closed.

We are not there yet. But because the controversy over "conversion therapy" pushed this issue into the public arena, we could push for a consensus using all the research and case studies out there.

I am guessing the stats will show diversity in people:
* some people report it is a "choice" to them, social lifestyle, or preference
* sometimes it is "how people are" - cannot change and not a choice
* some report having spiritual purposes to help others understand things more deeply

Not all people will give the same answers in describing themselves and relationships.

GreenBean: Why isn't it okay to have multiple answers for different people?
In some cases "math skills" or "musical skills" are inherently born as a natural gift.
In some cases they are acquired skills.

Are you okay with the concept of "spiritually" being born / incarnated in certain ways,
so that people have certain relationships in life with certain people?

Does that make you uncomfortable?
Why can't it be a spiritual process that decides these things,
who is born in what body, with which relationships or "soul-mates"
and what things change or don't change in life?

I've heard people complain that God/Religion is used to "explain" what people are afraid of or don't understand.

Is all this hangup about genetics vs. mental illness
some fear of addressing the "spiritual karma" that may be determining what's going on?
Or the fact "we don't know"?
Is that so disturbing that people must play with scientific explanations
to try to write this off as either "genetic" or a "mental disorder"
to file it in a box somewhere?

Why can't we be okay with people being different for different reasons?
Some may be natural or unnatural but not all are the same.
Anything wrong with that? Is that just too disturbing that
we HAVE to make it ALL THE SAME to file it in our brains under one blanket rule?

Thanks GreenBean but we need to be careful not to make the "equal and opposite" mistake as the people we criticize for going too far the other way, thinking it's true for everyone.

though the HIGH 50% match in orientation in twins is still interpreted as showing a TENDENCY even though the lack of 100% match means it is not solely genetic

There are a number of variables that would be involved in the 50% match in orientation , the most obvious being identical nurture / upbringing.

The second and equally plausible factor would be the possibilty of a genetic factor that effects ones pre-disposition and susceptibilty to acquiring homosexual traits .

It is believed that insanity runs in certain families - they have genetic deficiencies that would leave them predisposed to such ailments.

Another example would be Native Americans and alcohol , it is pretty well established that "fire-water" - alcohol has a different effect on amerindians than it does on caucasians and negroes - they are more prone to alocoholism - that doesn't mean they are genetically alcoholic - just more prone to it - they make the choice to drink or not to drink , just as Gays have the choice to lead a perverted sick existence or not to.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If a show of hands isn't an appropriate way to determine mental illness, than they were wrong in the 50s for using that method to add homosexuality to the list of mental illnesses.

Wouldn't that make them equally wrong for taking it off the list using the same method?

Not necessarily if it only was added because of popularity than it was wrong for it to bethere inthe first place.

If the decision isn't based on science it is wrong, even if they were wrong in the first place. This is why I keep pointing out that the APA is not a scientific organization, and why I mock people who insist it is.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I agree with you, I don't believe it is something somebody just chooses.

Didn't you jump all over me when I pointed out you were wrong about it not being a choice? Didn't you claim that you didn't actually hold that position?

I don't believe it's a choice. No, you and I never spoke about that.

We spent a significant part of my posts in this tread discussing it.

But feel free to pretend we didn't.

 

[GreenBean]

If a show of hands isn't an appropriate way to determine mental illness, than they were wrong in the 50s for using that method to add homosexuality to the list of mental illnesses.

Wouldn't that make them equally wrong for taking it off the list using the same method?

Not necessarily if it only was added because of popularity than it was wrong for it to bethere inthe first place.

So it's right - when it suits your purposes , but wrong when it works against them !? That's pretty Childish - don't you think ??

Remaining a Teenager: Infantilism

The homosexual’s personality is in part that of a child (or an adolescent). This phenomenon is known as the “inner complaining child”. Some have emotionally remained teenagers in nearly all areas of behavior; in most, the “child” alternates with the adult in them, depending on place and circumstances.

So in addition to arrested sexual development , it appears they also suffer from an arrested emotional development

 

[GreenBean]

I was drawing a parallel about 'rights', which Luddly Neddite introduced into the conversation.
Pedophilia or bestiality are not comparable as neither involves adult humans of the age of consent whilst my example did. Yer just trying to stir up shit.

So then you are supporting the "rights" of homosexuals to fornicate with children and hamsters ?

Hmmmmm ... berry berry interesting -
Glad you brought that out in the open - that took a lot of courage - coming out like that - do you think PETA might have a thing or two to say about that kind of activity - ya know hamsters have rights too ? You know those PETA people they are so homophobic - don't you agree ?

I don't know if you completely lack comprehension, have the actual IQ of a GreenBean, or are just a shit disturber. Either way, I said nothing resembling your false statement poorly phrased as an attempted question.

... a shit disturber

So you like shit disturbers ? I hear they can be very amicable and polite people - Have you had your stool pushed in by one lately ?

Either way, I said nothing resembling your false statement poorly phrased as an attempted question

Oh , my apoloogies - I must have misunderstood you - So you don't support inter-species intimacy - so what about inter generational intimacy , do you support the Gays on their quest to lower the age of consent ?

 

[GreenBean]

Sorry Greeny proving your claim wrong isn't how it works.

Sorry Inevitable Denying reality isn't how it works

Sorry greeny you didn't post reality

So you're still in denial - are you also in denial of your low IQ in addition to your arrested sexual development - you have the opportunity to display your worth - but can't -are you a failure in that department also - just as you are a failure at everything else in your sad little life ?? It must suck being you . but cheer up chunky - you're still young - i's not too late to get a life . Regards and Have a pleasant night.

 

[AntiParty]

Only a gay person can answer this question..............

I think the people trying to answer this without being gay are a hoot!

"Oh, It's certainly a choice because........." or "It's not a choice something ...."


Are you gay? Why are you answer questions for them? Why are you the professional of gay behavior? Ask a gay if it's a choice. Stop answering for them..

Unless of course you thought you were gay and you went through the religion anti-gay training camp that trains people who thought they were gay to be not gay..........etc...

You do realize that most Preists that raped young boys only did it because they were told they didn't have to "release the load". Puberty and not releasing your load makes your balls turn into your brains.

Just rub one out! Only specific versions of the Bible said don't jack off. It's not perverted, it's necessary. There should be a pressure valve.

 

[GreenBean]

Only a gay person can answer this question..............

I think the people trying to answer this without being gay are a hoot!

"Oh, It's certainly a choice because........." or "It's not a choice something ...."


Are you gay? Why are you answer questions for them? Why are you the professional of gay behavior? Ask a gay if it's a choice. Stop answering for them..

Unless of course you thought you were gay and you went through the religion anti-gay training camp that trains people who thought they were gay to be not gay..........etc...

You do realize that most Preists that raped young boys only did it because they were told they didn't have to "release the load". Puberty and not releasing your load makes your balls turn into your brains.

Just rub one out! Only specific versions of the Bible said don't jack off. It's not perverted, it's necessary. There should be a pressure valve.

Just rub one out! Only specific versions of the Bible said don't jack off. It's not perverted, it's necessary. There should be a pressure valve

So is that what you're doing ? releasing you pressure valve on this internet forum ?