Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[Kondor3]

"...So if the Jews were done wrong in Europe, shouldn't their homeland be there? Why should the arabs pay for that?"

Because the Euros didn't want 'em in Europe and because they controlled the Middle East at the time and because the Arabs weren't really doing anything worthwhile with Palestine at the time and because there was already a sizable land-owning Jewish minority in Palestine and because a case could be made that the Arabs had been squatting for centuries on Jewish territory that they had conquered or taken-over and because the Arabs had so much empty land-mass in the region that they should not have missed or begrudged a pissant little sliver of land like that and because the Christians and Muslims had 'Religious Capitals' while the Spiritual Mothership (Judaism) had been without one for centuries and because the Euros were stronger than the Arabs and could force their will and and because the Muslims had subjugated the Jews for centuries in Dhimmitude and owed them something too and because the Euros figured they'd leave it to the Arabs to wipe out the Jews and keep any more blood from staining their own hands and because Euro-trash had just killed 6,000,000 of them and because the Euros had a modest case of guilt over it and wanted to do something nice for them for once and because the Jews have been trying to get back there for 1900 years and because the Euros figured to give them a consolation-prize as compensation for the Holocaust and because the Euros bloody-well felt like it and because there wasn't shit that the Arabs were going to do about it other than fight with the Jews?

( nominated for Longest Rambling Sentence Without Punctuation Marks of the day )

Honest enough to suit you?

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Perhaps Mandela can tell the Jews of the 6,000,000 South Africans slaughtered in the Nazi concentration camps of Europe before they were promised a land of their own and seized their allotted share when the promisers looked like they were going to welch on the deal.

Oh, wait, that was the Jews, not the South Africans... sorry... my bad... never mind.

So if the Jews were done wrong in Europe, shouldn't their homeland be there? Why should the arabs pay for that?

Poor, poor Arabs...having to give up less than 1% of the Middle East.

Yes, poor poor arabs.

Bumbercyle - The arabs had a large portion of land offered to them in San Remo in 1922, and the Jews were offered Israel. I told you this Bumberclyde the other day, don't you remember?

I guess you don't know how tiny the land is that the Jews have as you do appear to be very ignorant of the matter.

Here, let me show you. You can sing along to the music or put it on mute, but watch the video and then tell me why the Jews shouldn't have that tiny portion of land that was theirs a couple of thousand years before Mohammed was a twinkle in his mother's eye.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb6ZZg0gSHs]That Tiny Strip of Land, ISRAEL - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Bumberclyde]

"...So if the Jews were done wrong in Europe, shouldn't their homeland be there? Why should the arabs pay for that?"

Because the Euros didn't want 'em in Europe and because they controlled the Middle East at the time and because the Arabs weren't really doing anything worthwhile with Palestine at the time and because there was already a sizable land-owning Jewish minority in Palestine and because a case could be made that the Arabs had been squatting for centuries on Jewish territory that they had conquered or taken-over and because the Arabs had so much empty land-mass in the region that they should not have missed or begrudged a pissant little sliver of land like that and because the Christians and Muslims had 'Religious Capitals' while the Spiritual Mothership (Judaism) had been without one for centuries and because the Euros were stronger than the Arabs and could force their will and and because the Muslims had subjugated the Jews for centuries in Dhimmitude and owed them something too and because the Euros figured they'd leave it to the Arabs to wipe out the Jews and keep any more blood from staining their own hands and because the Euros bloody-well felt like it and because there wasn't shit that the Arabs were going to do about it other than fight with the Jews?

( nominated for Longest Rambling Sentence Without Punctuation Marks of the day )

Honest enough to suit you?

 

[Kondor3]

Thought you'd like that one...

 

[georgephillip]

"South Africa was among the 33 states that voted in favour of the 1947 UN partition resolution,[1] which led to the creation of the State of Israel, and was one of only four Commonwealth nations to do so.

"On 24 May 1948,[2] nine days after Israel's declaration of independence, the South African government of Jan Smuts, a long-time supporter of Zionism, granted de facto recognition to the State of Israel, just two days before his United Party was voted out of office and replaced by the pro-apartheid National Party.

"South Africa was the seventh nation to recognise the new Jewish state. On 14 May 1949, South Africa granted de jure recognition to the State of Israel.[3][4]"

Israel?South Africa relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Bumberclyde]

Thought you'd like that one...

I'm shocked anyone from your side would be even THAT honest!!!!
Pass the word around (I edited it for clarity and precision):

"Because the Euros didn't want 'em in Europe and because they controlled the Middle East at the time and because the Euros bloody-well felt like it and because there wasn't shit that the Arabs were going to do about it other than fight with the Jews."

 

[Kondor3]

"...I'm shocked anyone from your side would be even THAT honest!!!!..."

There is no harm in serving-up honest personal opinion relating to how all this materialized in the 1948-1949 timeframe.

We (the world) spend far too much time quibbling over Old Legalities and not enough time dealing with the New Reality of What-Is.

HOW we got to this place is nowhere NEAR as important as the fact that we ARE here.

We (the world) cannot move forward unless we stop looking backwards as our main tactic in this context.

And we cannot stop looking backwards until we stop leaning upon the past to rationalize the WHY of where we are NOW.

Of course, the quickest way to do that, is to cut through all the bullshit and to recognize the culpability of the Euros in creating this mess in the first place, and how the battered, desperate Jews of Europe averted extinction and won their old homeland back in the shadow of that European culpability.

It is a 'road less traveled' but it is also a logical approach.

 

[Bumberclyde]

"...I'm shocked anyone from your side would be even THAT honest!!!!..."

There is no harm in serving-up honest personal opinion relating to how all this materialized in the 1948-1949 timeframe.

We (the world) spend far too much time quibbling over Old Legalities and not enough time dealing with the New Reality of What-Is.

HOW we got to this place is nowhere NEAR as important as the fact that we ARE here.

We (the world) cannot move forward unless we stop looking backwards as our main tactic in this context.

And we cannot stop looking backwards until we stop leaning upon the past to rationalize the WHY of where we are NOW.

Of course, the quickest way to do that, is to cut through all the bullshit and to recognize the culpability of the Euros in creating this mess in the first place, and how the battered, desperate Jews of Europe averted extinction and won their old homeland back in the shadow of that European culpability.

It is a 'road less traveled' but it is also a logical approach.

Of course it matters how you got there. Was taking the land done peacefully or was it done at the end of a gun barrel. Makes a BIG difference. Was it even a good place to set up shop in the first place, knowing that the arabs are going to be pissed until the end of time, or Israel's annihilation, which ever comes first?

 

[Bloodrock44]

"...I'm shocked anyone from your side would be even THAT honest!!!!..."

There is no harm in serving-up honest personal opinion relating to how all this materialized in the 1948-1949 timeframe.

We (the world) spend far too much time quibbling over Old Legalities and not enough time dealing with the New Reality of What-Is.

HOW we got to this place is nowhere NEAR as important as the fact that we ARE here.

We (the world) cannot move forward unless we stop looking backwards as our main tactic in this context.

And we cannot stop looking backwards until we stop leaning upon the past to rationalize the WHY of where we are NOW.

Of course, the quickest way to do that, is to cut through all the bullshit and to recognize the culpability of the Euros in creating this mess in the first place, and how the battered, desperate Jews of Europe averted extinction and won their old homeland back in the shadow of that European culpability.

It is a 'road less traveled' but it is also a logical approach.

Of course it matters how you got there. Was taking the land done peacefully or was it done at the end of a gun barrel. Makes a BIG difference. Was it even a good place to set up shop in the first place, knowing that the arabs are going to be pissed until the end of time, or Israel's annihilation, which ever comes first?

Israel's annihilation? Hell, arabs can't even win a war amongst themselves.

 

[Bumberclyde]

There is no harm in serving-up honest personal opinion relating to how all this materialized in the 1948-1949 timeframe.

We (the world) spend far too much time quibbling over Old Legalities and not enough time dealing with the New Reality of What-Is.

HOW we got to this place is nowhere NEAR as important as the fact that we ARE here.

We (the world) cannot move forward unless we stop looking backwards as our main tactic in this context.

And we cannot stop looking backwards until we stop leaning upon the past to rationalize the WHY of where we are NOW.

Of course, the quickest way to do that, is to cut through all the bullshit and to recognize the culpability of the Euros in creating this mess in the first place, and how the battered, desperate Jews of Europe averted extinction and won their old homeland back in the shadow of that European culpability.

It is a 'road less traveled' but it is also a logical approach.

Of course it matters how you got there. Was taking the land done peacefully or was it done at the end of a gun barrel. Makes a BIG difference. Was it even a good place to set up shop in the first place, knowing that the arabs are going to be pissed until the end of time, or Israel's annihilation, which ever comes first?

Israel's annihilation? Hell, arabs can't even win a war amongst themselves.

The arabs don't need to win, they just need to detonate ONE nuke.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Of course it matters how you got there. Was taking the land done peacefully or was it done at the end of a gun barrel. Makes a BIG difference. Was it even a good place to set up shop in the first place, knowing that the arabs are going to be pissed until the end of time, or Israel's annihilation, which ever comes first?

Israel's annihilation? Hell, arabs can't even win a war amongst themselves.

The arabs don't need to win, they just need to detonate ONE nuke.

Which arab country needs to "detonate ONE nuke" and where do you suggest they detonate it?

 

[Bloodrock44]

Of course it matters how you got there. Was taking the land done peacefully or was it done at the end of a gun barrel. Makes a BIG difference. Was it even a good place to set up shop in the first place, knowing that the arabs are going to be pissed until the end of time, or Israel's annihilation, which ever comes first?

Israel's annihilation? Hell, arabs can't even win a war amongst themselves.

The arabs don't need to win, they just need to detonate ONE nuke.

Right genius. And kill 10 times as many arabs as Jews. I imagine that would be fine with you.

 

[Kondor3]

"...The arabs don't need to win, they just need to detonate ONE nuke."

And you don't think that the Israelis have their own nukes tucked-away in hardened shelters?

Light off that one Arab nuke and within 60 minutes you'll see airbursts over Mecca and Medinah and Damascus and Baghdad and Cairo, and within a day over Tehran and Islamabad, courtesy of the IDF.

No, I don't think so.

 

[skye]

Of course it matters how you got there. Was taking the land done peacefully or was it done at the end of a gun barrel. Makes a BIG difference. Was it even a good place to set up shop in the first place, knowing that the arabs are going to be pissed until the end of time, or Israel's annihilation, which ever comes first?

Israel's annihilation? Hell, arabs can't even win a war amongst themselves.

The arabs don't need to win, they just need to detonate ONE nuke.

That's exactly the reason why Iran will never be allowed to get the bomb.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Of course it matters how you got there..."

I did not say that 'how we got here' does not matter.

I said that how we got there is nowhere near as important as the fact that we ARE here.

Big difference.

It's all well-and-good to harp on Old Legal Standings as background and history.

But victory and defeat on the battlefield tend to make nonsense of such things, and relegate them to the sidelines.

It's OK to include the sidelines-stuff in the conversation but it is pointless to attempt to resurrect it as the Primary Focus, once events on the battlefield had rendered it moot, beyond its utility as background.

Ol' Brennus knew what he was talkin' about...

Vae victis.

To move forward, the Palestinian side is simply going to have to abandon some of its focus upon mooted Old Legal Standings.

But they won't.

So we won't move forward.

And, not moving forward, the building of the West Bank Barrier will continue and the enlarging and creation of Israeli settlements will continue apace.

Every month and year that goes by, the Palestinians grow weaker, and their share of the land grows smaller, while the Israelis grow stronger, and their share grows larger.

Time is on the side of Israel.

I seriously doubt that they give two shits whether this latest round of US-Forced Talks goes anywhere or not.

And I'm on their side, in not giving two shits either.

It's like trying to make a deal with the inmates of some kind of weird Palestinian insane asylum.

It's been 65 years and all of these Talks and Land-for-Peace Deals have yielded nothing more than Manure, from Israel's perspective.

So the Israelis willl come to Washington, begrudging Obama and Kerry, they'll sit, they'll listen politely, they'll let the Palestinians rant and chew the carpet for a few days, then call it quits, and nothing will change.

Just to 'play nice' with the naive and idiotic Americans and to say: 'Well, we tried to tell ya, but ya forced us to come, and it didn't work out. We told ya, didn't we? Believe us now?'

And commerce and aid and military interaction will continue to flow between the United States and Israel just as it always has.

 

[Kondor3]

Letting Iran have nukes?

Kinda like time-warping back a thousand years and giving Pope Urban II a nuclear arsenal.

Hmmmmm... I smell a Harry Turtledove -caliber Alternative History plot for a sci-fi novel...

It would probably sell... I mean, after all, that sure would have solved one helluva lot of problems, before they even materialized...

 

[georgephillip]

"Most African states broke ties after the 1973 Yom Kippur War, and Israel once again began to take a more cordial view of the similarly-isolated regime in Pretoria.[12]

"Ethan A. Nadelmann has claimed that the relationship developed due to the fact that many African countries broke diplomatic ties with Israel during the 1970s following Israeli occupation of Arab land during the Arab-Israeli wars, causing Israel to deepen relations with other isolated countries.[13]

"By the mid 1970s, Israel's relations with South Africa had warmed.

"In 1975, the Israel–South Africa Agreement was signed, and increasing economic co-operation between Israel and South Africa was reported, including the construction of a major new railway in Israel, and the building of a desalination plant in South Africa.[14]

"In April 1976 South African Prime Minister John Vorster was invited to make a state visit, meeting Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin.[12] [15]

"Later in 1976, the 5th Conference of Non-Aligned Nations in Colombo, Sri Lanka, adopted a resolution calling for an oil embargo against France and Israel because of their arms sales to South Africa.[14]

"In 1977, South African Foreign Minister Pik Botha visited Israel to discuss South African issues with Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin and Foreign Minister Moshe Dayan."

Israel?South Africa relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Bumberclyde]

"...Of course it matters how you got there..."

I did not say that 'how we got here' does not matter.

I said that how we got there is nowhere near as important as the fact that we ARE here.

Big difference.

It's all well-and-good to harp on Old Legal Standings as background and history.

But victory and defeat on the battlefield tend to make nonsense of such things, and relegate them to the sidelines.

It's OK to include the sidelines-stuff in the conversation but it is pointless to attempt to resurrect it as the Primary Focus, once events on the battlefield had rendered it moot, beyond its utility as background.

Ol' Brennus knew what he was talkin' about...

Vae victis.

To move forward, the Palestinian side is simply going to have to abandon some of its focus upon mooted Old Legal Standings.

But they won't.

So we won't move forward.

And, not moving forward, the building of the West Bank Barrier will continue and the enlarging and creation of Israeli settlements will continue apace.

Every month and year that goes by, the Palestinians grow weaker, and their share of the land grows smaller, while the Israelis grow stronger, and their share grows larger.

Time is on the side of Israel.

I seriously doubt that they give two shits whether this latest round of US-Forced Talks goes anywhere or not.

And I'm on their side, in not giving two shits either.

It's like trying to make a deal with the inmates of some kind of weird Palestinian insane asylum.

It's been 65 years and all of these Talks and Land-for-Peace Deals have yielded nothing more than Manure, from Israel's perspective.

So the Israelis willl come to Washington, begrudging Obama and Kerry, they'll sit, they'll listen politely, they'll let the Palestinians rant and chew the carpet for a few days, then call it quits, and nothing will change.

Just to 'play nice' with the naive and idiotic Americans and to say: 'Well, we tried to tell ya, but ya forced us to come, and it didn't work out. We told ya, didn't we? Believe us now?'

And commerce and aid and military interaction will continue to flow between the United States and Israel just as it always has.

Problem is, the war's not over. The Pals never surrendered and a treaty never signed. Most wars end is one side being victorious, so this fight is ongoing, and imo, time is on the side of the arabs, who like the afghans, will grind it out for 500 years if they have to. Plus, once they get some nukes, Israel is so small that it would only take one or two to take it out for good.
Obama should stay home, like he did with Russia, because he's quite frankly an embarrassment, he's the wet noodle of all presidents (and I supported him early on). The US has no business being involved in the area anyways.

 

[Bloodrock44]

"...Of course it matters how you got there..."

I did not say that 'how we got here' does not matter.

I said that how we got there is nowhere near as important as the fact that we ARE here.

Big difference.

It's all well-and-good to harp on Old Legal Standings as background and history.

But victory and defeat on the battlefield tend to make nonsense of such things, and relegate them to the sidelines.

It's OK to include the sidelines-stuff in the conversation but it is pointless to attempt to resurrect it as the Primary Focus, once events on the battlefield had rendered it moot, beyond its utility as background.

Ol' Brennus knew what he was talkin' about...

Vae victis.

To move forward, the Palestinian side is simply going to have to abandon some of its focus upon mooted Old Legal Standings.

But they won't.

So we won't move forward.

And, not moving forward, the building of the West Bank Barrier will continue and the enlarging and creation of Israeli settlements will continue apace.

Every month and year that goes by, the Palestinians grow weaker, and their share of the land grows smaller, while the Israelis grow stronger, and their share grows larger.

Time is on the side of Israel.

I seriously doubt that they give two shits whether this latest round of US-Forced Talks goes anywhere or not.

And I'm on their side, in not giving two shits either.

It's like trying to make a deal with the inmates of some kind of weird Palestinian insane asylum.

It's been 65 years and all of these Talks and Land-for-Peace Deals have yielded nothing more than Manure, from Israel's perspective.

So the Israelis willl come to Washington, begrudging Obama and Kerry, they'll sit, they'll listen politely, they'll let the Palestinians rant and chew the carpet for a few days, then call it quits, and nothing will change.

Just to 'play nice' with the naive and idiotic Americans and to say: 'Well, we tried to tell ya, but ya forced us to come, and it didn't work out. We told ya, didn't we? Believe us now?'

And commerce and aid and military interaction will continue to flow between the United States and Israel just as it always has.

Problem is, the war's not over. The Pals never surrendered and a treaty never signed. Most wars end is one side being victorious, so this fight is ongoing, and imo, time is on the side of the arabs, who like the afghans, will grind it out for 500 years if they have to. Plus, once they get some nukes, Israel is so small that it would only take one or two to take it out for good.
Obama should stay home, like he did with Russia, because he's quite frankly an embarrassment, he's the wet noodle of all presidents (and I supported him early on). The US has no business being involved in the area anyways.

Obsessed with nuking Israel huh? Israel will never let them get nukes. And genius, even if they did nuke Israel it would take out 10 times as many arabs. How many arabs are you willing to trade for 1 Jew?

 

[Bumberclyde]

I did not say that 'how we got here' does not matter.

I said that how we got there is nowhere near as important as the fact that we ARE here.

Big difference.

It's all well-and-good to harp on Old Legal Standings as background and history.

But victory and defeat on the battlefield tend to make nonsense of such things, and relegate them to the sidelines.

It's OK to include the sidelines-stuff in the conversation but it is pointless to attempt to resurrect it as the Primary Focus, once events on the battlefield had rendered it moot, beyond its utility as background.

Ol' Brennus knew what he was talkin' about...

Vae victis.

To move forward, the Palestinian side is simply going to have to abandon some of its focus upon mooted Old Legal Standings.

But they won't.

So we won't move forward.

And, not moving forward, the building of the West Bank Barrier will continue and the enlarging and creation of Israeli settlements will continue apace.

Every month and year that goes by, the Palestinians grow weaker, and their share of the land grows smaller, while the Israelis grow stronger, and their share grows larger.

Time is on the side of Israel.

I seriously doubt that they give two shits whether this latest round of US-Forced Talks goes anywhere or not.

And I'm on their side, in not giving two shits either.

It's like trying to make a deal with the inmates of some kind of weird Palestinian insane asylum.

It's been 65 years and all of these Talks and Land-for-Peace Deals have yielded nothing more than Manure, from Israel's perspective.

So the Israelis willl come to Washington, begrudging Obama and Kerry, they'll sit, they'll listen politely, they'll let the Palestinians rant and chew the carpet for a few days, then call it quits, and nothing will change.

Just to 'play nice' with the naive and idiotic Americans and to say: 'Well, we tried to tell ya, but ya forced us to come, and it didn't work out. We told ya, didn't we? Believe us now?'

And commerce and aid and military interaction will continue to flow between the United States and Israel just as it always has.

Problem is, the war's not over. The Pals never surrendered and a treaty never signed. Most wars end is one side being victorious, so this fight is ongoing, and imo, time is on the side of the arabs, who like the afghans, will grind it out for 500 years if they have to. Plus, once they get some nukes, Israel is so small that it would only take one or two to take it out for good.
Obama should stay home, like he did with Russia, because he's quite frankly an embarrassment, he's the wet noodle of all presidents (and I supported him early on). The US has no business being involved in the area anyways.

Obsessed with nuking Israel huh? Israel will never let them get nukes. And genius, even if they did nuke Israel it would take out 10 times as many arabs. How many arabs are you willing to trade for 1 Jew?

Don't get your payots in a knot, of course I don't want anyone to get nuked, I've seen the footage of Hiroshima and Nagasaki a few times... But I'm just saying, Iran is developing a bomb and have vowed to wipe Israel off the map. So it seems not out of the realm of possibilities that that might happen.
And I don't think that the arabs care much about how many of their own they take out. I know I don't.