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"...yes, like on 5 june, 1967 they defended themselves against the el quesir..."
"...i wouldn't call what the israelis are doing 'defending themselves'..."
"...and you won't have america forever."
(REFERENCE)What moral authority did four rich (mostly white) imperialist bigots possess in 1920 to deny the right of self-determination to Jew and Arab alike in Palestine?
Definition said:Moral authority is an philosophical concept that should serve as a basis for, but is not in itself a rule of written law. The moral authority and legitimacy of law can be based on metaphysics or religion, on nature, on some aspect of society, or on the individual. It may be referred to as a "higher law", involving right reason, which calls a person to the performance of their duties and restrains them from doing wrong.
SOURCE: Moral Authority Law & Legal Definition
"...i think that the "might makes right" being proferred by jews on behalf of the israeli state is a very poor argument for a people who lost millions in europe and russia in the middle of the last century..."
Remind us again why you actually believe anybody cares what you "think"? Israel has done and will continue doing a good job defending itself and will be one of America's closest allies.Does it matter in the slightest, to the point being made?"...OMG...is that the el quesir. it is so hard to tell without unmarked, french made mirages swarming around it.
If the Israeli Navy consisted of two rowboats and a single motor-launch, their Navy would still be bigger than that of the Palestinians, and, of course, it is large enough to make the Egyptians and Turks and other Muslim countries respect them on the open water and in the Suez and nearby waters.
It happens to be the INS Hetz ( Sa'ar 4.5-class missile boat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) - a missile boat.
But, thank you for your tax money, which contributes to some modest degree to helping our good friends (and, nowadays, allies), the Israelis, defend themselves.
yes, like on 5 june, 1967 they defended themselves against the el quesir.
i wouldn't call what the israelis are doing "defending themselves" and you won't have america forever.
"...i think that the "might makes right" being proferred by jews on behalf of the israeli state is a very poor argument for a people who lost millions in europe and russia in the middle of the last century..."
I am guessing that the Jews learned their lesson well.
Weakness invites disaster.
Either you are strong enough to carve-out and hold a place for yourself in the world or you die.
After 1,900 years of playing possum it was time to give Strength another try.
And they succeeded beyond all reasonable expectations.
Remind us again why you actually believe anybody cares what you "think"? Israel has done and will continue doing a good job defending itself and will be one of America's closest allies.Does it matter in the slightest, to the point being made?
If the Israeli Navy consisted of two rowboats and a single motor-launch, their Navy would still be bigger than that of the Palestinians, and, of course, it is large enough to make the Egyptians and Turks and other Muslim countries respect them on the open water and in the Suez and nearby waters.
It happens to be the INS Hetz ( Sa'ar 4.5-class missile boat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) - a missile boat.
But, thank you for your tax money, which contributes to some modest degree to helping our good friends (and, nowadays, allies), the Israelis, defend themselves.
yes, like on 5 june, 1967 they defended themselves against the el quesir.
i wouldn't call what the israelis are doing "defending themselves" and you won't have america forever.
Does that make you bigots angry? GOOD. LOL
"...i do have a difficult time when an amoral person or people whine about the amoral acts of power directed at them by their enemies."
"...yes, like on 5 june, 1967 they defended themselves against the el quesir..."
Yawn.
"...i wouldn't call what the israelis are doing 'defending themselves'..."
You would not.
They would.
And, generally speak, so does the United States.
"...and you won't have america forever."
Who is 'you'?
I'm a German-Irish 4th generation American living within 40 miles of Chicago.
There is no end in sight, to the America-Israel friendship and alliance.
Wake me up when you've got something a little more solid in that vein, eh?
"...i do have a difficult time when an amoral person or people whine about the amoral acts of power directed at them by their enemies."
The only significant issue that Israelis seem to be 'amoral' about is their right to a State in the location where they established themselves.
And that only because they were promised a homeland there and because the British and the League of Nations and the United Nations all failed to deliver on such promises.
Everything that follows afterwards is merely a matter of (1) hanging onto what they already have and (2) rounding-out the map to make their homeland defensible and viable.
Had they been a truly amoral and expansionist power they would own Sinai and Lebanon rather than giving them back after winning various wars and campaigns, and they would have taken over most of Jordan by now and subjugated or killed off the indigenous populations of all those places, as well as the West Bank and Gaza.
Had they been a truly amoral power they would have begun building the West Bank Wall in 1949 rather than 2000.
Had they been a truly amoral power they would have begun blockading Gaza in 1949 rather than 2007.
Generally speaking, they do no more than reestablish and secure their ancestral and spiritual homeland, after a 1,900 year -long absence.
Beyond those necessary survivalist goals, they are, generally speaking, a far more 'moral' and civilized and productive people than their Arab neighbors.
Beyond those necessary survivalist goals, they do no more than their nasty and aggressive Arab neighbors force upon them.
But when they ARE forced to get nasty in return, they are MUCH better at finishing their fights than those who foolishly pick or provoke them.
Endless attacks upon Israel by the Arabs have taught them that lesson, as well.
The America-Israel friendship and alliance is in no danger.
Not even a (perceived) hostile US President such as the present one is going to change that, and he will be gone in 3-1/2 years - long before he can do any permanent damage.
The American People at-large and their military and intelligence services are all firmly in the Israeli camp and are likely to be for many years to come.
This is doubly true after 9-11.
Americans do not take kindly to pi$$ant redneck Religious Fundie Muslims who kill thousands of innocent American civilians in a cowardly attempt to dictate to us whom we can have as friends and allies and whom we cannot.
If anything, 9-11 has solidified the America-Israel connection like no other event in modern times; a consequence that bin-Laden and his bunch failed to foresee.
A blip here and there on the demographics scope with respect to Muslim immigration isn't going to change that one little bit, despite the pie-in-the-sky pipe-dreams of some Muslims living in the US. Generally speaking, as a bloc, Muslims have never had the trust of the American People at large, and they certainly do not have that trust at present.
After 9-11, it seems highly unlikely that they will gain that trust anytime during the next couple of generations, at the very least, until the majority of those living at the time of 9-11 and able to remember it personally, have passed into history, if not, indeed, long beyond that.
Yet another example of consequences that bin-Laden and his gang failed to anticipate - although the blame for that distrust lies squarely upon him and his followers; aggravated by those who cheered him on, and who make excuses for and attempt to rationalize and justify his actions post facto.
Why don't you tell us from some legitimate source the percentage of the Negev Desert makes up the total land given to Israel? Meanwhile, you can tell your friends in Gaza that no one is stopping them from building some resorts on the Mediterranean. Think of all the money they could make from the gambling casinos. Why, they could be like Monaco!! Now if only they asked for supplies to do this with from Iran instead of Iran supplying them with weapons and missiles.Bumberclyde, et al,
What are you, a stand-up comedian? Where are you playing?
(COMMENT)
You didn't even get the "old white guys" part right.
But they were one of the great generations of our time. They were the representatives of the Allied Powers that remained when four Empires fell.
What is your allegation specifically, without the wisecracks? Clear and coherent!
Most Respectfully,
R
I was asking about the partition map in a post just above, I was curious to know how they came to that particular split. And someone posted that video explaining the white guys who gave land to their friends. Just trying to figure out really what the basis is for the conflict today, how it all came about.
These were my questions:
1) How/why did the Jews end up with the good part with the beaches and coastline and the arabs got sand?
2) When these lines were drawn up, were the arabs all supposed to leave the Jewish part (by force if necessary), or was everyone already living there going to be allowed to stay put?
Maybe you are the one to tell us why those Arabs in the area heeded the call of the Arabs leaders to leave, and once they got out of the way, there would be a clear field to murder the Jews and then they could return. By the way, look at the map of the Arab world, and look at the tiny piece of land they are having a fit over because all the land there should belong to them and not one inch for the Jews.
Size Comparison Map of Israel and the Arab World
"...i do have a difficult time when an amoral person or people whine about the amoral acts of power directed at them by their enemies."
The only significant issue that Israelis seem to be 'amoral' about is their right to a State in the location where they established themselves.
And that only because they were promised a homeland there and because the British and the League of Nations and the United Nations all failed to deliver on such promises.
Everything that follows afterwards is merely a matter of (1) hanging onto what they already have and (2) rounding-out the map to make their homeland defensible and viable.
Had they been a truly amoral and expansionist power they would own Sinai and Lebanon rather than giving them back after winning various wars and campaigns, and they would have taken over most of Jordan by now and subjugated or killed off the indigenous populations of all those places, as well as the West Bank and Gaza.
Had they been a truly amoral power they would have begun building the West Bank Wall in 1949 rather than 2000.
Had they been a truly amoral power they would have begun blockading Gaza in 1949 rather than 2007.
Generally speaking, they do no more than reestablish and secure their ancestral and spiritual homeland, after a 1,900 year -long absence.
Beyond those necessary survivalist goals, they are, generally speaking, a far more 'moral' and civilized and productive people than their Arab neighbors.
Beyond those necessary survivalist goals, they do no more than their nasty and aggressive Arab neighbors force upon them.
But when they ARE forced to get nasty in return, they are MUCH better at finishing their fights than those who foolishly pick or provoke them.
Endless attacks upon Israel by the Arabs have taught them that lesson, as well.
The America-Israel friendship and alliance is in no danger.
Not even a (perceived) hostile US President such as the present one is going to change that, and he will be gone in 3-1/2 years - long before he can do any permanent damage.
The American People at-large and their military and intelligence services are all firmly in the Israeli camp and are likely to be for many years to come.
This is doubly true after 9-11.
Americans do not take kindly to pi$$ant redneck Religious Fundie Muslims who kill thousands of innocent American civilians in a cowardly attempt to dictate to us whom we can have as friends and allies and whom we cannot.
If anything, 9-11 has solidified the America-Israel connection like no other event in modern times; a consequence that bin-Laden and his bunch failed to foresee.
A blip here and there on the demographics scope with respect to Muslim immigration isn't going to change that one little bit, despite the pie-in-the-sky pipe-dreams of some Muslims living in the US. Generally speaking, as a bloc, Muslims have never had the trust of the American People at large, and they certainly do not have that trust at present.
After 9-11, it seems highly unlikely that they will gain that trust anytime during the next couple of generations, at the very least, until the majority of those living at the time of 9-11 and able to remember it personally, have passed into history, if not, indeed, long beyond that.
Yet another example of consequences that bin-Laden and his gang failed to anticipate - although the blame for that distrust lies squarely upon him and his followers; aggravated by those who cheered him on, and who make excuses for and attempt to rationalize and justify his actions post facto.
when you are at war for 60+ years...
#1. you picked a horrible location to relovaye your people to form this so called nation.
#2. you have not finished any fight.
as for osama bin laden. i don't think it escapes most people that jews aand zionists think, as netanyahu said about 9-11, that "it is good for israel". at first, i think most americans accepted that but i think it becomes more increasingly apparent, or so it seems, that the deaths of these americans are just being used by jews and zionists as fodder to promote hatred towards all muslims and pirsue a political agensa that does not seem at all to be in america's best interests.
also, i do not hold your opinion that the american people at large are bigots. you may be right, but that will sound the death knell for american jews as well.
Yup and that "Palestine" they keep referring to also included Jordan. And most of them are ended up there, after Palestine was divided into Israel and Jordan. In reality a total of about 300,000 Arab - Palestinians lived in Israel pre 1948, most of them invaders from neighboring lands that came looking for work.'Still swimming in denial?Yep... fun, ain't it?
Yep... this was well-known, as far back as 1922, never mind 1948...
...and it is just as true 91 years later, in 2013, as it was in 1922.
Nothing new there.
The Israelis are not out to discriminate against Palestinians.
They just want them to move outside the country, as that country is defined in the 1922 League of Nations Partition Plan.
Once that happens (and it will - just look at today's maps of the few slices of non-contiguous land still under Palestinian control within those borders) all of that horseshit goes away.
"The mandate was a legal and administrative instrument, not a geographical territory.[26] The territorial jurisdiction of the mandate was subject to change by treaty, capitulation, grant, usage, sufferance or other lawful means."
50,000 Jews, 50,000 Arab Christians, and 500,000 Muslims lived in Palestine around 1922.
Maybe that's why the kosher chickenshits didn't want elections?
'Still don't, apparently.
SPLASH!
British Mandate for Palestine (legal instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sorry to burst your neo Nazi fantasy. Approval of Israel is at a long time high, and EU just put Hezbollah on the terrorist list.Remind us again why you actually believe anybody cares what you "think"? Israel has done and will continue doing a good job defending itself and will be one of America's closest allies.yes, like on 5 june, 1967 they defended themselves against the el quesir.
i wouldn't call what the israelis are doing "defending themselves" and you won't have america forever.
Does that make you bigots angry? GOOD. LOL
well, perhaps i feel that way because some of you follow me around constantly like a hurt puppy dog and go to some effory yo lie in order to discredit me.
as for america, it is, like the rest of the world, changing in its attitude towards israel and soon the arab/muslim population is increasing. as they increase, people will become more exposed to them as hard working, patriotic members of their community and good neighbours and the attacks on them, many by jewish people, will be exposed for what they are, acts of bigotry and hate ccrimes or precursors to hate crimes.
america will not just do an "about-FACE", it will execute a snappy "to the rear-MARCH!!!"if history is any indication. our government is very, very slow to act on social issues but when the do, they do so qquickly and with a determination.
Palestine included Jordan, DUFUS.Yup and that "Palestine" they keep referring to also included Jordan. And most of them are ended up there, after Palestine was divided into Israel and Jordan. In reality a total of about 300,000 Arab - Palestinians lived in Israel pre 1948, most of them invaders from neighboring lands that came looking for work.'Still swimming in denial?
"The mandate was a legal and administrative instrument, not a geographical territory.[26] The territorial jurisdiction of the mandate was subject to change by treaty, capitulation, grant, usage, sufferance or other lawful means."
50,000 Jews, 50,000 Arab Christians, and 500,000 Muslims lived in Palestine around 1922.
Maybe that's why the kosher chickenshits didn't want elections?
'Still don't, apparently.
SPLASH!
British Mandate for Palestine (legal instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"By 1948, the population (of Palestine) had risen to 1,900,000, of whom 68% were Arabs, and 32% were Jews (UNSCOP report, including bedouin).
"The question of late Arab immigration to Palestine[edit source | editbeta]
Whether there was significant Arab immigration into Palestine after the beginning of Jewish settlement there in the late 19th century has become a matter of some controversy.
"According to Martin Gilbert, 50,000 Arabs immigrated to Mandatory Palestine from the neighboring lands between 1919 and 1939 "attracted by the improving agricultural conditions and growing job opportunities, most of them created by the Jews".[29]
"The overall assessment of several British reports was that the increase in the Arab population was primarily due to natural increase.[30][31] These included the Hope Simpson report (1930),[32] the Passfield White Paper (1930)[33] the Peel Commission report (1937)[34] and the Survey of Palestine (1945).[35]"
Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"...Still swimming in denial? 'The mandate was a legal and administrative instrument, not a geographical territory.[26] The territorial jurisdiction of the mandate was subject to change by treaty, capitulation, grant, usage, sufferance or other lawful means.'..."
Whatever in the world are you talking about... 'denial'?
Nowhere in that post will you find reference to the Mandate as either one sort of artificial construct or another, territorial or legal or administrative or otherwise.
Both the Israelis and Palestinians can serve-up some halfway decent-sounding argument in support of their case, or in support of bits-and-pieces of it, anyway.
But, in the end, none of that shit signifies to an extent sufficient to influence the existence or sustaining of nations.
Allow me to introduce you to the Real World basis for the existence of the State of Israel:
...not to mention the reported existence of some 200 nuclear warheads.
...and the fierce determination of the Jews never again be put into a position of weakness that would allow others to slaughter them in their millions.
...which tends to make nonsense out of any old legal arguments.
The Jews are, historically, one of the most and longest-persecuted and slaughtered peoples on the face of the planet.
After the Holocaust, they turned things around for themselves, toughened-up, found their courage as a People once again, re-formed as a polity after a 1900-year-long absence, and have become the most hardened Survivalist Nation on the face of the planet.
Their Arab-Muslim neighbors also forced the Jews to learn how to make War better than anybody else in the region.
War has a tendency to cancel-out old understandings and arrangements and legal status.
As is the case here, practically speaking.
Your side lost.
Repeatedly.
Vae victus.
"...50,000 Jews, 50,000 Arab Christians, and 500,000 Muslims lived in Palestine around 1922..."
I was not aware that either the League of Nations nor the British Mandate Authority had ever considered such a possibility during the 1920s or thereabouts on the timeline.
Do you have a link to credible initiatives of those times to undertake such Elections for all residents of the region, which the Jews would have rejected?
Having kicked the arses of all of their combined and allied Arab Enemies in 1948, 1967 and 1973, I think the Israelis have put the lie to accusations of being 'chickenshit'.
At the very least, they are far, far LESS 'chickenshit' than the Arabs whose arse they've kicked time and again.
"...didn't want elections? 'Still don't, apparently..."
Too late for that.
The Arab-Muslim Palestinians who chose to remain within Israeli jurisdiction in 1948 when the State of Israel was declared, are all full-fledged Israeli citizens and enfranchised to vote.
The Arab-Muslim Palestinians who chose to side with the Five Invading Aggressor Arab Countries in 1948 and to abandon their lands and hunker-down in the West Bank and Gaza until the Arabs won the war (and redeemed all the land for the Arabs alone and to drive the Jews into the Mediterranean), and who have been fighting a guerrilla war against Israel off-and-on ever since...those Arab-Muslim Palestinians are not citizens of Israel.
They had their chance.
They made their choice.
They chose poorly.
Welcome to your consequences.
"...SPLASH!"
Indeed.
None of that old legal horseshit matters a damn.
And hasn't, practically speaking, for a great many years.
Some folks, however, insist upon beating their heads against a thick stone wall that will never budge.
All that gets them is a headache.
The party's over... time for the Palestinians to pack up and move someplace else... 'cause there's no place for them in Israel after what they've done... and what few slivers of land still remain in their possession will be annexed over the next decade or two in order to round-out and complete the 1922 map.
Might as well avoid the Christmas Rush and leave now.
The sooner they leave, the sooner they and their families can build new lives and find happiness elsewhere, amongst their co-religionists and ethnic brethren.
Does it matter in the slightest, to the point being made?"...OMG...is that the el quesir. it is so hard to tell without unmarked, french made mirages swarming around it.
If the Israeli Navy consisted of two rowboats and a single motor-launch, their Navy would still be bigger than that of the Palestinians, and, of course, it is large enough to make the Egyptians and Turks and other Muslim countries respect them on the open water and in the Suez and nearby waters.
It happens to be the INS Hetz ( Sa'ar 4.5-class missile boat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) - a missile boat.
But, thank you for your tax money, which contributes to some modest degree to helping our good friends (and, nowadays, allies), the Israelis, defend themselves.
Does it matter in the slightest, to the point being made?"...OMG...is that the el quesir. it is so hard to tell without unmarked, french made mirages swarming around it.
If the Israeli Navy consisted of two rowboats and a single motor-launch, their Navy would still be bigger than that of the Palestinians, and, of course, it is large enough to make the Egyptians and Turks and other Muslim countries respect them on the open water and in the Suez and nearby waters.
It happens to be the INS Hetz ( Sa'ar 4.5-class missile boat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) - a missile boat.
But, thank you for your tax money, which contributes to some modest degree to helping our good friends (and, nowadays, allies), the Israelis, defend themselves.
Don't forget to thank those who've contributed life, limb, and blood for your good friends in their heroic quest to colonize Palestine:
"USS Liberty: Contact Page
Does it matter in the slightest, to the point being made?"...OMG...is that the el quesir. it is so hard to tell without unmarked, french made mirages swarming around it.
If the Israeli Navy consisted of two rowboats and a single motor-launch, their Navy would still be bigger than that of the Palestinians, and, of course, it is large enough to make the Egyptians and Turks and other Muslim countries respect them on the open water and in the Suez and nearby waters.
It happens to be the INS Hetz ( Sa'ar 4.5-class missile boat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) - a missile boat.
But, thank you for your tax money, which contributes to some modest degree to helping our good friends (and, nowadays, allies), the Israelis, defend themselves.
Don't forget to thank those who've contributed life, limb, and blood for your good friends in their heroic quest to colonize Palestine:
"USS Liberty: Contact Page
"...the simple fact of the matter is that a whole lot of people, especially young people, are seeing through the hate propaganda being put out by jews and zionists and rejecting it outright..."
