Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[Roudy]

The land was under the control of the British after the collapse of the Ottomans who controlled it for 700 years. The Arabs never controlled or owned an inch of the land for 800 years. They are recent invaders from neighboring lands. The League of Nations which later evolved into the UN allocated some of the land to the Jews aka Israel, and most of it to the Arab Muslims aka Jordan.

Bumberclyde is new here so here is an excellent explanation for him and anyone else who is interested. I have put this video on the forum before. It explains the situation clearly. The Professor speaking, Professor Howard Grief, has written an excellent comprehensive book which anyone interested in the situation should try to read. Details below with reviews of the book on the web page.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubDhnM0MUmY]Howard Grief - EC4I middle east conflict documentary: Give Peace A Chance - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Legal-Foundation-Borders-Israel-International/dp/1936778556/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt]The Legal Foundation And Borders Of Israel Under International Law: A Treatise on Jewish Sovereignty over the Land of Israel: Howard Grief: 9781936778553: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

So basically, a bunch of old white guys got together in San Remo and decided what was going to happen to land they had never even been to, regardless of what the occupants wanted? Did I get that right? So in other words, Israel has no real basis to its claims then.

The Ottoman Empire collapsed shortly after WWI! The entire region was under the control of the British or the French as mandates and they eventually divided the area up into various states, all of them ended up being Arab /Muslim entities except for one, Israel. Arabs didn't have a problem with anything other than the one Jewish state. The country of Palestine was never considered because it never existed, and the Arabs never considered themselves "Palestinians" until the mid 1960's. Before 1948 the the Palestinians were considered to ONLY be Jews who had settled in the region, and because of that intolerant racist Arabs regarded that label as an insult.

Arabs didn't "approve" the only Jewish state in the region in the same land as ancient Israel? TOUGH SHIT. It wasn't up to the greedy Arabs in the first place.

 

[toastman]

Bumberclyde is new here so here is an excellent explanation for him and anyone else who is interested. I have put this video on the forum before. It explains the situation clearly. The Professor speaking, Professor Howard Grief, has written an excellent comprehensive book which anyone interested in the situation should try to read. Details below with reviews of the book on the web page.

Howard Grief - EC4I middle east conflict documentary: Give Peace A Chance - YouTube

The Legal Foundation And Borders Of Israel Under International Law: A Treatise on Jewish Sovereignty over the Land of Israel: Howard Grief: 9781936778553: Amazon.com: Books

So basically, a bunch of old white guys got together in San Remo and decided what was going to happen to land they had never even been to, regardless of what the occupants wanted? Did I get that right? So in other words, Israel has no real basis to its claims then.

The Ottoman Empire collapsed shortly after WWI! The entire region was under the control of the British or the French as mandates and they eventually divided the area up into various states, all of them ended up being Arab /Muslim entities except for one, Israel. Arabs didn't have a problem with anything other than the one Jewish state. A country called Palestine was never considered because it never existed and the Arabs never considered themselves "Palestinians" until the mid 1960's. Before 1948 the only Palestinians were ONLY Jews who had settled in the region, and because of that intolerant racist Arabs considered that label as an insult. Arabs didn't "approve" the only Jewish state in the region in the same land as ancient Israel? TOUGH SHIT. It wasn't up to the greedy Arabs in the first place.

BINGO on the bold. The Palestinians had NO sovereignty over the land.
Owning land and having sovereignty over that land are two very different things.

 

[Bumberclyde]

Bumberclyde is new here so here is an excellent explanation for him and anyone else who is interested. I have put this video on the forum before. It explains the situation clearly. The Professor speaking, Professor Howard Grief, has written an excellent comprehensive book which anyone interested in the situation should try to read. Details below with reviews of the book on the web page.

Howard Grief - EC4I middle east conflict documentary: Give Peace A Chance - YouTube

The Legal Foundation And Borders Of Israel Under International Law: A Treatise on Jewish Sovereignty over the Land of Israel: Howard Grief: 9781936778553: Amazon.com: Books

So basically, a bunch of old white guys got together in San Remo and decided what was going to happen to land they had never even been to, regardless of what the occupants wanted? Did I get that right? So in other words, Israel has no real basis to its claims then.

No, you have it incorrectly. You need to particularly take notice of what is said up until 3 mins 50 seconds.

The Mandate was based on what the Zionists and the Arabs wanted. You may need to watch the video a couple of times, stopping and rewinding, as it is important you get to know the facts.

No, they asked the arabs and jews what they wanted and chose whatever they felt like. No referendum on the outcome by the people living there or anything like that, white old men decided to give their land away, then the jews kicked them out and passed a law of no return. Did I get that right? The people involved who lived there at the time obviously didn't agree, or they wouldn't still be fighting.

 

[RoccoR]

Bumberclyde, et al,

What are you, a stand-up comedian? Where are you playing?

So basically, a bunch of old white guys got together in San Remo and decided what was going to happen to land they had never even been to, regardless of what the occupants wanted? Did I get that right? So in other words, Israel has no real basis to its claims then.

(COMMENT)

You didn't even get the "old white guys" part right.

But they were one of the great generations of our time. They were the representatives of the Allied Powers that remained when four Empires fell.

What is your allegation specifically, without the wisecracks? Clear and coherent!

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

So basically, a bunch of old white guys got together in San Remo and decided what was going to happen to land they had never even been to, regardless of what the occupants wanted? Did I get that right? So in other words, Israel has no real basis to its claims then.

No, you have it incorrectly. You need to particularly take notice of what is said up until 3 mins 50 seconds.

The Mandate was based on what the Zionists and the Arabs wanted. You may need to watch the video a couple of times, stopping and rewinding, as it is important you get to know the facts.

No, they asked the arabs and jews what they wanted and chose whatever they felt like. No referendum on the outcome by the people living there or anything like that, white old men decided to give their land away, then the jews kicked them out and passed a law of no return. Did I get that right? The people involved who lived there at the time obviously didn't agree, or they wouldn't still be fighting.

No, you got it wrong. You really need to listen carefully and concentrate.

 

[Bumberclyde]

Bumberclyde, et al,

What are you, a stand-up comedian? Where are you playing?

So basically, a bunch of old white guys got together in San Remo and decided what was going to happen to land they had never even been to, regardless of what the occupants wanted? Did I get that right? So in other words, Israel has no real basis to its claims then.

(COMMENT)

You didn't even get the "old white guys" part right.

But they were one of the great generations of our time. They were the representatives of the Allied Powers that remained when four Empires fell.

What is your allegation specifically, without the wisecracks? Clear and coherent!

Most Respectfully,
R

I was asking about the partition map in a post just above, I was curious to know how they came to that particular split. And someone posted that video explaining the white guys who gave land to their friends. Just trying to figure out really what the basis is for the conflict today, how it all came about.

These were my questions:

1) How/why did the Jews end up with the good part with the beaches and coastline and the arabs got sand?

2) When these lines were drawn up, were the arabs all supposed to leave the Jewish part (by force if necessary), or was everyone already living there going to be allowed to stay put?

 

[RoccoR]

Bumberclyde; et al,

OK, good questions.

These were my questions:

1) How/why did the Jews end up with the good part with the beaches and coastline and the arabs got sand?

2) When these lines were drawn up, were the arabs all supposed to leave the Jewish part (by force if necessary), or was everyone already living there going to be allowed to stay put?​

(ANSWERS)

1: The three partitions were given access to land/water trade routes. The Arab State and Hashemite Kingdom were given access to the Jordan River and the Dead Sea. The Jewish State given Mediterranean access.

2: Yes: "everyone already living there going to be allowed to stay put?" Nothing in the Independence Process was to effect private land ownership. Everyone in the State of Israel at the time independence was to be an equal citizen.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Roudy]

"The Jews got the beaches and the Arabs got the sand" Phew what an embecile. Arabs always had the sand. I think we are dealing with a teenager that sounds eerily familiar.

 

[georgephillip]

Bumberclyde, et al,

What are you, a stand-up comedian? Where are you playing?

So basically, a bunch of old white guys got together in San Remo and decided what was going to happen to land they had never even been to, regardless of what the occupants wanted? Did I get that right? So in other words, Israel has no real basis to its claims then.

(COMMENT)

You didn't even get the "old white guys" part right.

But they were one of the great generations of our time. They were the representatives of the Allied Powers that remained when four Empires fell.

What is your allegation specifically, without the wisecracks? Clear and coherent!

Most Respectfully,
R

Were they racists?

"The San Remo conference was an international meeting of the post-World War I Allied Supreme Council, held at Villa Devachan in Sanremo, Italy, from 19 to 26 April 1920. It was attended by the four Principal Allied Powers of World War I who were represented by the prime ministers of Britain (David Lloyd George), France (Alexandre Millerand) and Italy (Francesco Nitti) and by Japan's Ambassador K. Matsui.[citation needed]

Resolutions passed at this conference determined the allocation of Class 'A' League of Nations mandates for administration of the former Ottoman-ruled lands of the Middle East."

Rocco...
What moral authority did four rich (mostly white) imperialist bigots possess in 1920 to deny the right of self-determination to Jew and Arab alike in Palestine?

San Remo conference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[georgephillip]

Somebody spreading IslamoNazi hate and terrorist propaganda shouldn't really be talking? You know the Internet is being watched by the govt., and guess what type they're profiling?

Profession writers looking to buy pressure cookers and their husbands researching backpacks?

"Michelle Catalano and her family were shaken and made anxious on Wednesday after being visited by 'six gentleman in casual clothes'—who turned out to be local police operating under the authority of, or least in connection with, federal agencies—and getting 'peppered' with questions resulting from a series of coincidently entered search terms made on their home computer in recent weeks.

"Catalano, who writes professionally, explained the whole story in her own words on her blog. In way of background, she explained:

"Most of it was innocent enough. I had researched pressure cookers. My husband was looking for a backpack. And maybe in another time those two things together would have seemed innocuous, but we are in “these times...'”

Online Search for Pressure Cooker Sparks Police Visit | Common Dreams

Since Georgie Boy is so, so intelligent and naturally loves this country very much, he certainly must appreciate that people all over the world have differences of opinions on many different subjects, and no doubt he likes the fact that here in America people are allowed to express themselves freely, just as Georgie Boy does on the Internet, bashing Israel and those he calls "kosher" every chance he gets.

A myth-illogical apartheid

Your link:

"The Jews created one of the most progressive democracies in the world, most accepting of minorities, yet they're branded racist by Islamists, themselves severely discriminatory. Jews resettled peacefully in their homeland of 3,000+ years..."

650,000 Jews inflict their nation upon 1.2 million Arabs by force of arms in 1948 Palestine, driving 700,000 Arabs from their homes, businesses, and bank accounts and your source calls that "peaceful?"

Compared to what...the rape of Canaan?

 

[Bloodrock44]

Profession writers looking to buy pressure cookers and their husbands researching backpacks?

"Michelle Catalano and her family were shaken and made anxious on Wednesday after being visited by 'six gentleman in casual clothes'—who turned out to be local police operating under the authority of, or least in connection with, federal agencies—and getting 'peppered' with questions resulting from a series of coincidently entered search terms made on their home computer in recent weeks.

"Catalano, who writes professionally, explained the whole story in her own words on her blog. In way of background, she explained:

"Most of it was innocent enough. I had researched pressure cookers. My husband was looking for a backpack. And maybe in another time those two things together would have seemed innocuous, but we are in “these times...'”

Online Search for Pressure Cooker Sparks Police Visit | Common Dreams

Since Georgie Boy is so, so intelligent and naturally loves this country very much, he certainly must appreciate that people all over the world have differences of opinions on many different subjects, and no doubt he likes the fact that here in America people are allowed to express themselves freely, just as Georgie Boy does on the Internet, bashing Israel and those he calls "kosher" every chance he gets.

A myth-illogical apartheid

Your link:

"The Jews created one of the most progressive democracies in the world, most accepting of minorities, yet they're branded racist by Islamists, themselves severely discriminatory. Jews resettled peacefully in their homeland of 3,000+ years..."

650,000 Jews inflict their nation upon 1.2 million Arabs by force of arms in 1948 Palestine, driving 700,000 Arabs from their homes, businesses, and bank accounts and your source calls that "peaceful?"

Compared to what...the rape of Canaan?

You're slipping Gerogie. You didn't use the term racism here. Please be more careful in the future or your handlers may come down on you.

 

[georgephillip]

"...Zionists have never based their right to occupy Palestine on anything except superior military might, always backed-up by the reigning superpower of the day..."

Yep... fun, ain't it?

"...their conduct today on the West Bank and Gaza is a continuation of the policy of 'creeping annexation' until all the land between the River and the sea is ruled by Jews..."

Yep... this was well-known, as far back as 1922, never mind 1948...

...and it is just as true 91 years later, in 2013, as it was in 1922.

Nothing new there.

"...In 2007, the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination..."

The Israelis are not out to discriminate against Palestinians.

They just want them to move outside the country, as that country is defined in the 1922 League of Nations Partition Plan.

Once that happens (and it will - just look at today's maps of the few slices of non-contiguous land still under Palestinian control within those borders) all of that horseshit goes away.

'Still swimming in denial?

"The mandate was a legal and administrative instrument, not a geographical territory.[26] The territorial jurisdiction of the mandate was subject to change by treaty, capitulation, grant, usage, sufferance or other lawful means."

50,000 Jews, 50,000 Arab Christians, and 500,000 Muslims lived in Palestine around 1922.
Maybe that's why the kosher chickenshits didn't want elections?
'Still don't, apparently.
SPLASH!

British Mandate for Palestine (legal instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Hossfly]

Bumberclyde, et al,

What are you, a stand-up comedian? Where are you playing?

So basically, a bunch of old white guys got together in San Remo and decided what was going to happen to land they had never even been to, regardless of what the occupants wanted? Did I get that right? So in other words, Israel has no real basis to its claims then.

(COMMENT)

You didn't even get the "old white guys" part right.

But they were one of the great generations of our time. They were the representatives of the Allied Powers that remained when four Empires fell.

What is your allegation specifically, without the wisecracks? Clear and coherent!

Most Respectfully,
R

I was asking about the partition map in a post just above, I was curious to know how they came to that particular split. And someone posted that video explaining the white guys who gave land to their friends. Just trying to figure out really what the basis is for the conflict today, how it all came about.

These were my questions:

1) How/why did the Jews end up with the good part with the beaches and coastline and the arabs got sand?

2) When these lines were drawn up, were the arabs all supposed to leave the Jewish part (by force if necessary), or was everyone already living there going to be allowed to stay put?

Why don't you tell us from some legitimate source the percentage of the Negev Desert makes up the total land given to Israel? Meanwhile, you can tell your friends in Gaza that no one is stopping them from building some resorts on the Mediterranean. Think of all the money they could make from the gambling casinos. Why, they could be like Monaco!! Now if only they asked for supplies to do this with from Iran instead of Iran supplying them with weapons and missiles.

Maybe you are the one to tell us why those Arabs in the area heeded the call of the Arabs leaders to leave, and once they got out of the way, there would be a clear field to murder the Jews and then they could return. By the way, look at the map of the Arab world, and look at the tiny piece of land they are having a fit over because all the land there should belong to them and not one inch for the Jews.

Size Comparison Map of Israel and the Arab World

 

[toastman]

Bumberclyde, et al,

What are you, a stand-up comedian? Where are you playing?


(COMMENT)

You didn't even get the "old white guys" part right.

But they were one of the great generations of our time. They were the representatives of the Allied Powers that remained when four Empires fell.

What is your allegation specifically, without the wisecracks? Clear and coherent!

Most Respectfully,
R

I was asking about the partition map in a post just above, I was curious to know how they came to that particular split. And someone posted that video explaining the white guys who gave land to their friends. Just trying to figure out really what the basis is for the conflict today, how it all came about.

These were my questions:

1) How/why did the Jews end up with the good part with the beaches and coastline and the arabs got sand?

2) When these lines were drawn up, were the arabs all supposed to leave the Jewish part (by force if necessary), or was everyone already living there going to be allowed to stay put?

Why don't you tell us from some legitimate source the percentage of the Negev Desert makes up the total land given to Israel? Meanwhile, you can tell your friends in Gaza that no one is stopping them from building some resorts on the Mediterranean. Think of all the money they could make from the gambling casinos. Why, they could be like Monaco!! Now if only they asked for supplies to do this with from Iran instead of Iran supplying them with weapons and missiles.

Maybe you are the one to tell us why those Arabs in the area heeded the call of the Arabs leaders to leave, and once they got out of the way, there would be a clear field to murder the Jews and then they could return. By the way, look at the map of the Arab world, and look at the tiny piece of land they are having a fit over because all the land there should belong to them and not one inch for the Jews.

Size Comparison Map of Israel and the Arab World

Unfortunately for the Palestinians in Gaza, their government is embedded in a Jihad against Israel. Anything else comes second

 

[Roudy]

"...Zionists have never based their right to occupy Palestine on anything except superior military might, always backed-up by the reigning superpower of the day..."

Yep... fun, ain't it?



Yep... this was well-known, as far back as 1922, never mind 1948...

...and it is just as true 91 years later, in 2013, as it was in 1922.

Nothing new there.

"...In 2007, the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination..."

The Israelis are not out to discriminate against Palestinians.

They just want them to move outside the country, as that country is defined in the 1922 League of Nations Partition Plan.

Once that happens (and it will - just look at today's maps of the few slices of non-contiguous land still under Palestinian control within those borders) all of that horseshit goes away.

'Still swimming in denial?

"The mandate was a legal and administrative instrument, not a geographical territory.[26] The territorial jurisdiction of the mandate was subject to change by treaty, capitulation, grant, usage, sufferance or other lawful means."

50,000 Jews, 50,000 Arab Christians, and 500,000 Muslims lived in Palestine around 1922.
Maybe that's why the kosher chickenshits didn't want elections?
'Still don't, apparently.
SPLASH!

British Mandate for Palestine (legal instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yup and that "Palestine" they keep referring to also included Jordan. And most of them are ended up there, after Palestine was divided into Israel and Jordan. In reality a total of about 300,000 Arab - Palestinians lived in Israel pre 1948, most of them invaders from neighboring lands that came looking for work.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Still swimming in denial? 'The mandate was a legal and administrative instrument, not a geographical territory.[26] The territorial jurisdiction of the mandate was subject to change by treaty, capitulation, grant, usage, sufferance or other lawful means.'..."

Whatever in the world are you talking about... 'denial'?

Nowhere in that post will you find reference to the Mandate as either one sort of artificial construct or another, territorial or legal or administrative or otherwise.

Both the Israelis and Palestinians can serve-up some halfway decent-sounding argument in support of their case, or in support of bits-and-pieces of it, anyway.

But, in the end, none of that shit signifies to an extent sufficient to influence the existence or sustaining of nations.

Allow me to introduce you to the Real World basis for the existence of the State of Israel:

...not to mention the reported existence of some 200 nuclear warheads.

...and the fierce determination of the Jews never again be put into a position of weakness that would allow others to slaughter them in their millions.

...which tends to make nonsense out of any old legal arguments.

The Jews are, historically, one of the most and longest-persecuted and slaughtered peoples on the face of the planet.

After the Holocaust, they turned things around for themselves, toughened-up, found their courage as a People once again, re-formed as a polity after a 1900-year-long absence, and have become the most hardened Survivalist Nation on the face of the planet.

Their Arab-Muslim neighbors also forced the Jews to learn how to make War better than anybody else in the region.

War has a tendency to cancel-out old understandings and arrangements and legal status.

As is the case here, practically speaking.

Your side lost.

Repeatedly.

Vae victus.

"...50,000 Jews, 50,000 Arab Christians, and 500,000 Muslims lived in Palestine around 1922..."

I was not aware that either the League of Nations nor the British Mandate Authority had ever considered such a possibility during the 1920s or thereabouts on the timeline.

Do you have a link to credible initiatives of those times to undertake such Elections for all residents of the region, which the Jews would have rejected?

"...Maybe that's why the kosher chickenshits..."

Having kicked the arses of all of their combined and allied Arab Enemies in 1948, 1967 and 1973, I think the Israelis have put the lie to accusations of being 'chickenshit'.

At the very least, they are far, far LESS 'chickenshit' than the Arabs whose arse they've kicked time and again.

"...didn't want elections? 'Still don't, apparently..."

Too late for that.

The Arab-Muslim Palestinians who chose to remain within Israeli jurisdiction in 1948 when the State of Israel was declared, are all full-fledged Israeli citizens and enfranchised to vote.

The Arab-Muslim Palestinians who chose to side with the Five Invading Aggressor Arab Countries in 1948 and to abandon their lands and hunker-down in the West Bank and Gaza until the Arabs won the war (and redeemed all the land for the Arabs alone and to drive the Jews into the Mediterranean), and who have been fighting a guerrilla war against Israel off-and-on ever since...those Arab-Muslim Palestinians are not citizens of Israel.

They had their chance.

They made their choice.

They chose poorly.

Welcome to your consequences.

"...SPLASH!"

Indeed.

None of that old legal horseshit matters a damn.

And hasn't, practically speaking, for a great many years.

Some folks, however, insist upon beating their heads against a thick stone wall that will never budge.

All that gets them is a headache.

The party's over... time for the Palestinians to pack up and move someplace else... 'cause there's no place for them in Israel after what they've done... and what few slivers of land still remain in their possession will be annexed over the next decade or two in order to round-out and complete the 1922 map.

Might as well avoid the Christmas Rush and leave now.

The sooner they leave, the sooner they and their families can build new lives and find happiness elsewhere, amongst their co-religionists and ethnic brethren.

 

[sealadaigh]

"...Still swimming in denial? 'The mandate was a legal and administrative instrument, not a geographical territory.[26] The territorial jurisdiction of the mandate was subject to change by treaty, capitulation, grant, usage, sufferance or other lawful means.'..."

Allow me to introduce you to the Real World basis for the existence of the State of Israel:

OMG...is that the el quesir. it is so hard to tell without unmarked, french made mirages swarming around it.

 

[Kondor3]

"...OMG...is that the el quesir. it is so hard to tell without unmarked, french made mirages swarming around it.

Does it matter in the slightest, to the point being made?

If the Israeli Navy consisted of two rowboats and a single motor-launch, their Navy would still be bigger than that of the Palestinians, and, of course, it is large enough to make the Egyptians and Turks and other Muslim countries respect them on the open water and in the Suez and nearby waters.

It happens to be the INS Hetz ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa'ar_4.5-class_missile_boat ) - a missile boat.

But, thank you for your tax money, which contributes to some modest degree to helping our good friends (and, nowadays, allies), the Israelis, defend themselves.

 

[sealadaigh]

"...OMG...is that the el quesir. it is so hard to tell without unmarked, french made mirages swarming around it.

Does it matter in the slightest, to the point being made?

If the Israeli Navy consisted of two rowboats and a single motor-launch, their Navy would still be bigger than that of the Palestinians, and, of course, it is large enough to make the Egyptians and Turks and other Muslim countries respect them on the open water and in the Suez and nearby waters.

It happens to be the INS Hetz ( Sa'ar 4.5-class missile boat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) - a missile boat.

But, thank you for your tax money, which contributes to some modest degree to helping our good friends (and, nowadays, allies), the Israelis, defend themselves.

i think that the "might makes right" being proferred by jews on behalf of the israeli state is a very poor argument for a people who lost millions in europe and russia in the middle of the last century.

of course then, hitler was wrong when he attacked great britain, which (in part) led to his downfall but had he not done that, maybe you wouldn't be around to squawk about the rectitude behind behind a superior and brutal military.

 

[sealadaigh]

"...OMG...is that the el quesir. it is so hard to tell without unmarked, french made mirages swarming around it.

Does it matter in the slightest, to the point being made?

If the Israeli Navy consisted of two rowboats and a single motor-launch, their Navy would still be bigger than that of the Palestinians, and, of course, it is large enough to make the Egyptians and Turks and other Muslim countries respect them on the open water and in the Suez and nearby waters.

It happens to be the INS Hetz ( Sa'ar 4.5-class missile boat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) - a missile boat.

But, thank you for your tax money, which contributes to some modest degree to helping our good friends (and, nowadays, allies), the Israelis, defend themselves.

yes, like on 5 june, 1967 they defended themselves against the el quesir.

i wouldn't call what the israelis are doing "defending themselves" and you won't have america forever.