Is it 1917, or 2024?

[SavannahMann]

President Wilson was a bit of a dreamer. He had a number of failings, but he honestly meant well. He honestly believed a negotiated peace was the best solution in Europe as he won the second term in the election of 1916. Wilson had intended and discussed often his desire to receive terms from the combatants to end the war. Finally as 1917 broke and with the new year came the terms.

Germany demanded all the territory they had occupied. Including entire nations that had been independent before the war. Massive reparations for the audacity of England and France of resisting the invasion. It was a list of demands detached from reality. It was obvious that Germany could never win. As would be the case in the next war, they were counting on their Wonder Weapons to win a war they could not win with soldiers.

The English and French demands were equally adamant. And equally unreasonable, if a negotiated peace was your goal.

Wilson’s failing was that he never would understand the simple truth. The Governments of the combatants could not accept anything but victory. The people would never stand for it. No politician would stand before the people and explain that millions of loss lives, entire economies had been wiped out, crippling debts for the next couple generations, all for nothing.

By the Spring of 1915, it was victory or death for everyone involved.

This history came to mind when I read about the Russian Demands to begin negotiations for the end of the war in Ukraine.

Putin demands more land to end Ukraine war, terms Kyiv rejects as ‘complete sham’ | CNN

President Vladimir Putin said Russia will only end its war in Ukraine if Kyiv surrenders the entirety of four regions claimed by Moscow and abandons its bid to join NATO – terms Kyiv immediately dismissed as a “complete sham” and “offensive to common sense.”

amp.cnn.com

It is equally detached from reality as the responses in 1917. It is just as unreasonable. It is just as insane.

It is World War III. And the sooner we realize that, and start to act properly, the better for everyone.

 

[rampart]

President Wilson was a bit of a dreamer. He had a number of failings, but he honestly meant well. He honestly believed a negotiated peace was the best solution in Europe as he won the second term in the election of 1916. Wilson had intended and discussed often his desire to receive terms from the combatants to end the war. Finally as 1917 broke and with the new year came the terms.

Germany demanded all the territory they had occupied. Including entire nations that had been independent before the war. Massive reparations for the audacity of England and France of resisting the invasion. It was a list of demands detached from reality. It was obvious that Germany could never win. As would be the case in the next war, they were counting on their Wonder Weapons to win a war they could not win with soldiers.

The English and French demands were equally adamant. And equally unreasonable, if a negotiated peace was your goal.

Wilson’s failing was that he never would understand the simple truth. The Governments of the combatants could not accept anything but victory. The people would never stand for it. No politician would stand before the people and explain that millions of loss lives, entire economies had been wiped out, crippling debts for the next couple generations, all for nothing.

By the Spring of 1915, it was victory or death for everyone involved.

This history came to mind when I read about the Russian Demands to begin negotiations for the end of the war in Ukraine.

Putin demands more land to end Ukraine war, terms Kyiv rejects as ‘complete sham’ | CNN

President Vladimir Putin said Russia will only end its war in Ukraine if Kyiv surrenders the entirety of four regions claimed by Moscow and abandons its bid to join NATO – terms Kyiv immediately dismissed as a “complete sham” and “offensive to common sense.”

amp.cnn.com

It is equally detached from reality as the responses in 1917. It is just as unreasonable. It is just as insane.

It is World War III. And the sooner we realize that, and start to act properly, the better for everyone.

everyone makes ridiculous demands at the beginning of a negotiation.

anyone who continues most wars because "the people demand this" almost never ask the people what they want.

 

[SavannahMann]

everyone makes ridiculous demands at the beginning of a negotiation.

anyone who continues most wars because "the people demand this" almost never ask the people what they want.

Ok. Russia wants roughly half of Ukraine. Ukraine demands all Russian troops leave. Russia demands essentially complete disarmament of Ukraine. Ukraine wants more military hardware to protect itself from future Russian aggression. Russia demands and end to Western Sanctions. Sanctions they earned by their barbaric actions.

So where is the middle ground? We give a quarter of Ukraine to Russia to reward their bad behavior? See History for how that works.

We’ve tried appeasement. We’ve tried negotiation. All that is left is war. And the sooner we wipe out Russia the better for everyone.

 

[theHawk]

We’ve tried negotiation.

We haven’t tried negotiation. The US and its puppet allies have shut any attempt of negotiations down. Only more escalation is permitted.



Ask yourself how did modern day Ukraine get its borders? Who drew them up?
Were they drawn up with the consent of the people within them?



Hint: here is a map of Eastern Europe before the Bolsheviks happened:

 

[ESay]

Russian demands need to be a starting point in future negotiations. Why not Ukrainian ones? Because Ukraine can't reach them by military means and Russia won't accept them in negotiations. These demands don't represent the situation on the ground.

Of course, the Putin regime put forward a maximum of what they want to get at this point of the war. And how much they can get out of this maximum is still a question. But it is the time for generals to shut up and diplomats to start to speak.

 

[SavannahMann]

We haven’t tried negotiation. The US and its puppet allies have shut any attempt of negotiations down. Only more escalation is permitted.



Ask yourself how did modern day Ukraine get its borders? Who drew them up?
Were they drawn up with the consent of the people within them?



Hint: here is a map of Eastern Europe before the Bolsheviks happened:
View attachment 962709

So we need to go back in history to decide what nations look like today? Ok. But what are we going to do when the United States exists only on the Eastern Seaboard?

 

[rampart]

Ok. Russia wants roughly half of Ukraine. Ukraine demands all Russian troops leave. Russia demands essentially complete disarmament of Ukraine. Ukraine wants more military hardware to protect itself from future Russian aggression. Russia demands and end to Western Sanctions. Sanctions they earned by their barbaric actions.

So where is the middle ground? We give a quarter of Ukraine to Russia to reward their bad behavior? See History for how that works.

We’ve tried appeasement. We’ve tried negotiation. All that is left is war. And the sooner we wipe out Russia the better for everyone.

step 1. cease fire remain in place, vigilantly responding to aggression, and stand by for further orders.

there are plenty of ways for putin to save face and come away without new territory. hell, offer him nato membership and a nobel peace prize if it will put his tanks in reverse.

there are adults who can help.

 

[rampart]

We haven’t tried negotiation. The US and its puppet allies have shut any attempt of negotiations down. Only more escalation is permitted.



Ask yourself how did modern day Ukraine get its borders? Who drew them up?
Were they drawn up with the consent of the people within them?



Hint: here is a map of Eastern Europe before the Bolsheviks happened:
View attachment 962709

so the romanovs drew the the borders. let the romanovs defend it. oh, that's right , rasputin is not available for comment.

the bolsheviks did not just "happen." lenin was a welcome replacement for the czar.

 

[Thunderbird]

President Wilson was a bit of a dreamer. He had a number of failings, but he honestly meant well. He honestly believed a negotiated peace was the best solution in Europe as he won the second term in the election of 1916. Wilson had intended and discussed often his desire to receive terms from the combatants to end the war. Finally as 1917 broke and with the new year came the terms.

Germany demanded all the territory they had occupied. Including entire nations that had been independent before the war. Massive reparations for the audacity of England and France of resisting the invasion. It was a list of demands detached from reality. It was obvious that Germany could never win. As would be the case in the next war, they were counting on their Wonder Weapons to win a war they could not win with soldiers.

The English and French demands were equally adamant. And equally unreasonable, if a negotiated peace was your goal.

Wilson’s failing was that he never would understand the simple truth. The Governments of the combatants could not accept anything but victory. The people would never stand for it. No politician would stand before the people and explain that millions of loss lives, entire economies had been wiped out, crippling debts for the next couple generations, all for nothing.

By the Spring of 1915, it was victory or death for everyone involved.

This history came to mind when I read about the Russian Demands to begin negotiations for the end of the war in Ukraine.

Putin demands more land to end Ukraine war, terms Kyiv rejects as ‘complete sham’ | CNN

President Vladimir Putin said Russia will only end its war in Ukraine if Kyiv surrenders the entirety of four regions claimed by Moscow and abandons its bid to join NATO – terms Kyiv immediately dismissed as a “complete sham” and “offensive to common sense.”

amp.cnn.com

It is equally detached from reality as the responses in 1917. It is just as unreasonable. It is just as insane.

It is World War III. And the sooner we realize that, and start to act properly, the better for everyone.

Many wars have ended via negotiation. Examples from U.S. history: War of 1812, Korean War.

All autocrats are not Hitler. Many autocrats posses neither the power nor the inclination to continuously invade their neighbors.

Revenge-driven politicians signed the Versailles Treaty and brought about WW II. Compromise may bring peace.

Some ethnic conflicts do die down. For example, the conflict in Northern Ireland has become less bloody.

Some impractical Wilsonians like George Bush see conflicts as black or white. Realists can perceive shades of gray.

 

[theHawk]

So we need to go back in history to decide what nations look like today? Ok. But what are we going to do when the United States exists only on the Eastern Seaboard?

Our nation was formed because of a United people that fought to make an independent nation and expanded it.

The Ukrainians never did any such thing.
Half their land was inhabited by Russians when Russian dictator created the Ukrainian SSR. Russia probably would had left it alone if the Ukrainian government didn’t start bombing ethnic Russians in 2014.

Now Russia has taken back the land, because Ukrainian people do not want to die for land that has historically been Russia.

But morons like you support a dictator named Zelensky (yes, he is a dictator now, he canceled elections and his term was over last month). You support him because your beloved MSM and Democrats say you must. You support forced conscription of young men in Ukraine to die in a war you want.

Are YOU willing to join the army and fight against Russians there? Yes or no?

 

[Oddball]

President Wilson was a bit of a dreamer. He had a number of failings, but he honestly meant well. He honestly believed a negotiated peace was the best solution in Europe as he won the second term in the election of 1916. Wilson had intended and discussed often his desire to receive terms from the combatants to end the war. Finally as 1917 broke and with the new year came the terms.

Germany demanded all the territory they had occupied. Including entire nations that had been independent before the war. Massive reparations for the audacity of England and France of resisting the invasion. It was a list of demands detached from reality. It was obvious that Germany could never win. As would be the case in the next war, they were counting on their Wonder Weapons to win a war they could not win with soldiers.

The English and French demands were equally adamant. And equally unreasonable, if a negotiated peace was your goal.

Wilson’s failing was that he never would understand the simple truth. The Governments of the combatants could not accept anything but victory. The people would never stand for it. No politician would stand before the people and explain that millions of loss lives, entire economies had been wiped out, crippling debts for the next couple generations, all for nothing.

By the Spring of 1915, it was victory or death for everyone involved.

This history came to mind when I read about the Russian Demands to begin negotiations for the end of the war in Ukraine.

Putin demands more land to end Ukraine war, terms Kyiv rejects as ‘complete sham’ | CNN

President Vladimir Putin said Russia will only end its war in Ukraine if Kyiv surrenders the entirety of four regions claimed by Moscow and abandons its bid to join NATO – terms Kyiv immediately dismissed as a “complete sham” and “offensive to common sense.”

amp.cnn.com

It is equally detached from reality as the responses in 1917. It is just as unreasonable. It is just as insane.

It is World War III. And the sooner we realize that, and start to act properly, the better for everyone.

The delusional gaslighting here , by people rewriting history in a cynical ploy to frame themselves as being on the "right side of history", is beyond measure.

The comparison isn't Europe 1917, it's Vietnam 1964.

There really is no end to the establishmentarian warmonger pricks.

 

[SavannahMann]

Our nation was formed because of a United people that fought to make an independent nation and expanded it.

The Ukrainians never did any such thing.
Half their land was inhabited by Russians when Russian dictator created the Ukrainian SSR. Russia probably would had left it alone if the Ukrainian government didn’t start bombing ethnic Russians in 2014.

Now Russia has taken back the land, because Ukrainian people do not want to die for land that has historically been Russia.

But morons like you support a dictator named Zelensky (yes, he is a dictator now, he canceled elections and his term was over last month). You support him because your beloved MSM and Democrats say you must. You support forced conscription of young men in Ukraine to die in a war you want.

Are YOU willing to join the army and fight against Russians there? Yes or no?

My goodness. What propaganda. Their nation is occupied. During World War II the British canceled their elections until after the war was over. Was Churchill a Dictator?

Occupied nations never hold elections. They never have. Imagine if Mexico invaded. Would we hold elections if the Mexican Lines were in Houston? Would Texas votes be valid?

You guys swallow so much propaganda you don’t know what truth is.

So long as Ukraine was a satellite of Russia they were fine. But Russia recognized them as independent. After the Soviets did. The United Nations recognized them as independent. We recognized them.

But Ukraine decided they really wanted to be independent and voted the Russian Thug out of office. They decided they wanted to be more closely aligned with the west and not Russia. They saw more opportunity with the side of freedom. That was not tolerable to Putin.

But I love this knee jerk response. If I am not going personally I should shut up. Fine. Go to work in the oil fields. Tell the company you’ll work for half price to help drive the price of gasoline down. Otherwise shit your pie hole about gas prices.

 

[theHawk]

But Ukraine decided they really wanted to be independent and voted the Russian Thug out of office

Wrong. There was an insurrection and a coup to drive out the elected President of Ukraine in 2014. That isn’t democracy.

Revolutions do happen though, and I could support a new Ukraine, but only if every province wanted to be a part of it. The eastern provinces didn’t, and wanted their independence. They even voted as such. But people like you hate actual democracy and support dictators ruling over people.


What did I say that was “propaganda”? Be specific. You can’t name one thing of course, because I am using the facts. Zelensky’s term has ended, there were no elections, he is still in office. You can’t even acknowledge that FACT. Why is that? Because YOU are the propagandist.