Is the knowledge of good and evil, good or evil?

[ding]

So it seems that morality is an artifact of intelligence. That in reality we are different than animals.

 

[Blues Man]

Is the knowledge of good and evil, good or evil?

For you, me, and Adam to answer this question; we need the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam may have needed what he was denied by Yahweh to know if the tree of the knowledge of all things, is good or evil to eat from. As scriptures say, he was mentally and morally blind without it.

You and I cannot see any better than Adam could when our mental eyes are blind on issues and without knowledge of them.

It seems that Yahweh put Adam in a catch 22. Damned to being mentally blind and as bright as a brick and unable to reproduce or condemned to death if he educated himself.

Regards
DL

Neither good nor evil exists outside of the mind of man

Good exists. Evil doesn’t.

Do hot and cold exist outside the mind of man?

What about light and darkness?

There is no physical quantification of good or evil.

When there is a thermometer that can measure the evil in the air let me know.

Does cold exist? Does darkness exist?

Yes and they can be quantified

When you can measure "evil" let me know.

WHat would one unit of evil be called do you think?

Maybe we should call it a Satan or a Lucifer.

So tell me how many Lucifers must be present in the air for a murder to be committed?

So cold does not exist. Only heat exists. Darkness does not exist. Only light exists.'

Cold is the absence of heat and darkness is the absence of light.

Evil doesn't exist either. Evil is the absence of good.

Unfairness doesn't exist. Unfairness is the absence of fairness.

G-d said evil exists,
you weren't consulted.

Creation is not bound by the limits of dulaistic human logic.

The epitome of human corruption - when man willfully denies his evil potential.

Everything God created is good.

So the serial killer is "good"?

The rapist, the thief the pederast are all "good"

Sometimes, bad people do good things, and good people do bad things.

I disagree.

If you rape a child you are not a good person

I thought you said good doesn't exist.

Aren't you making a value judgement here?

it only exists as a value judgement.

And since people have different values their value judgements will be different.

if good existed as a thing then everyone would see it as the same thing like they would see a rock.

So then you must believe that a person who rapes a child isn't good or evil, right?

Because you don't believe that good exists in actuality.

No i am free to make value judgements on the behavior of others.

But my value judgements may not be the value judgements of another person hence my statement that good and evil are subjective things and as such do not exist in the physical world

But they are just opinions, right? They aren't any better than mine, right. I could enter your home, do what I want and there wouldn't be anything morally wrong with that, right?

As long as I could control you physically, I could do anything I wanted and you really couldn't make a moral argument against what I did, right?

Moral is another value judgement.

My judgement on you breaking into my home is that you are one who means to do me harm so I will shoot you.

And again I can make my own personal judgements as to your behavior.

Sure, but if I subdue you and have my way with whatever I want, you have no moral high ground because morals to you are just opinions. There's no authority behind them at all. Just the rule of capture. Sort of like a lion taking a gazelle.

If you are able to subdue me completely and do me harm what good is my moral judgement in that situation?


It is meaningless.

Yep. And you have no moral high ground to argue that what I did was wrong. I'm just an animal taking from another animal. Right?

I can argue that it defied the agreed upon laws of the society we live in.

 

[ding]

Is the knowledge of good and evil, good or evil?

For you, me, and Adam to answer this question; we need the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam may have needed what he was denied by Yahweh to know if the tree of the knowledge of all things, is good or evil to eat from. As scriptures say, he was mentally and morally blind without it.

You and I cannot see any better than Adam could when our mental eyes are blind on issues and without knowledge of them.

It seems that Yahweh put Adam in a catch 22. Damned to being mentally blind and as bright as a brick and unable to reproduce or condemned to death if he educated himself.

Regards
DL

Neither good nor evil exists outside of the mind of man

Good exists. Evil doesn’t.

Do hot and cold exist outside the mind of man?

What about light and darkness?

There is no physical quantification of good or evil.

When there is a thermometer that can measure the evil in the air let me know.

Does cold exist? Does darkness exist?

Yes and they can be quantified

When you can measure "evil" let me know.

WHat would one unit of evil be called do you think?

Maybe we should call it a Satan or a Lucifer.

So tell me how many Lucifers must be present in the air for a murder to be committed?

So cold does not exist. Only heat exists. Darkness does not exist. Only light exists.'

Cold is the absence of heat and darkness is the absence of light.

Evil doesn't exist either. Evil is the absence of good.

Unfairness doesn't exist. Unfairness is the absence of fairness.

G-d said evil exists,
you weren't consulted.

Creation is not bound by the limits of dulaistic human logic.

The epitome of human corruption - when man willfully denies his evil potential.

Everything God created is good.

And yet G-d calls man's heart evil.

Who are you to argue?

God said everything he created is good. It's the first thing you were told.

Man has a choice to do good or not do good. The problem comes when he doesn't do good and fails to admit it and learn from his mistakes.

Which is contradicted by modern neuroscience.

Show me how modern neuroscience contradicts that man doesn't rationalize doing wrong as right?

There is no absolute right and wrong.

Both are merely value judgements. Those value judgements have become part of many cultures because they prove to make survival easier not because there is some metaphysical thing called good or evil

Just pain and pleasure. If you can get away with pleasure without the pain that would be great, right?

So there would be nothing wrong with harming others for your gain, right?

These are your logical conclusions.

I never said just pain and pleasure. People who choose to live together in a cooperative society have to agree on what behaviors are allowed and disallowed in their society.

A society can certainly believe sacrificing people on the altar of some god is perfectly acceptable. I'll even go so far as to say that if any of us were raised in such a society that we too would believe it to be acceptable.

If all there are are opinions then the only thing that is real is pain and pleasure.

No there are as many things as there are opinions.

There are those who believe mortification of the flesh to be a necessary component of worship.

So to them pain is the means they derive pleasure in serving their god.

And to you the only thing that exists in actuality is your pain and pleasure. Do whatever doesn't give you pain and whatever gives you pleasure. Screw everyone else. There is no moral authority. It is whatever you can take for your pleasure.

I do not believe I have the right to harm another person in any way.

In fact I stopped eating meat because I don't want to be responsible for the large scale suffering of animals.

That is my choice, my judgement, not some overriding absolute moral code becase such a thing does not exist outside of what is agreed upon by the members of a society

Sounds like you are making a moral argument to me.

What's wrong with being like an animal?

 

[ding]

Is the knowledge of good and evil, good or evil?

For you, me, and Adam to answer this question; we need the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam may have needed what he was denied by Yahweh to know if the tree of the knowledge of all things, is good or evil to eat from. As scriptures say, he was mentally and morally blind without it.

You and I cannot see any better than Adam could when our mental eyes are blind on issues and without knowledge of them.

It seems that Yahweh put Adam in a catch 22. Damned to being mentally blind and as bright as a brick and unable to reproduce or condemned to death if he educated himself.

Regards
DL

Neither good nor evil exists outside of the mind of man

Good exists. Evil doesn’t.

Do hot and cold exist outside the mind of man?

What about light and darkness?

There is no physical quantification of good or evil.

When there is a thermometer that can measure the evil in the air let me know.

Does cold exist? Does darkness exist?

Yes and they can be quantified

When you can measure "evil" let me know.

WHat would one unit of evil be called do you think?

Maybe we should call it a Satan or a Lucifer.

So tell me how many Lucifers must be present in the air for a murder to be committed?

So cold does not exist. Only heat exists. Darkness does not exist. Only light exists.'

Cold is the absence of heat and darkness is the absence of light.

Evil doesn't exist either. Evil is the absence of good.

Unfairness doesn't exist. Unfairness is the absence of fairness.

G-d said evil exists,
you weren't consulted.

Creation is not bound by the limits of dulaistic human logic.

The epitome of human corruption - when man willfully denies his evil potential.

Everything God created is good.

So the serial killer is "good"?

The rapist, the thief the pederast are all "good"

Sometimes, bad people do good things, and good people do bad things.

I disagree.

If you rape a child you are not a good person

I thought you said good doesn't exist.

Aren't you making a value judgement here?

it only exists as a value judgement.

And since people have different values their value judgements will be different.

if good existed as a thing then everyone would see it as the same thing like they would see a rock.

So then you must believe that a person who rapes a child isn't good or evil, right?

Because you don't believe that good exists in actuality.

No i am free to make value judgements on the behavior of others.

But my value judgements may not be the value judgements of another person hence my statement that good and evil are subjective things and as such do not exist in the physical world

But they are just opinions, right? They aren't any better than mine, right. I could enter your home, do what I want and there wouldn't be anything morally wrong with that, right?

As long as I could control you physically, I could do anything I wanted and you really couldn't make a moral argument against what I did, right?

Moral is another value judgement.

My judgement on you breaking into my home is that you are one who means to do me harm so I will shoot you.

And again I can make my own personal judgements as to your behavior.

Sure, but if I subdue you and have my way with whatever I want, you have no moral high ground because morals to you are just opinions. There's no authority behind them at all. Just the rule of capture. Sort of like a lion taking a gazelle.

If you are able to subdue me completely and do me harm what good is my moral judgement in that situation?


It is meaningless.

Yep. And you have no moral high ground to argue that what I did was wrong. I'm just an animal taking from another animal. Right?

I can argue that it defied the agreed upon laws of the society we live in.

Fuck society's laws. They are just opinions. You said it yourself, right and wrong don't exist except in the minds of humans. They are just opinions.

 

[Blues Man]

So it seems that morality is an artifact of intelligence. That in reality we are different than animals.

It's not morality.

It's a set of standards that are agreed upon by the members of a society.

All the human cultures that have condoned human sacrifice or ritualistic violence were not cultures of animals but of humans

 

[Blues Man]

Is the knowledge of good and evil, good or evil?

For you, me, and Adam to answer this question; we need the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam may have needed what he was denied by Yahweh to know if the tree of the knowledge of all things, is good or evil to eat from. As scriptures say, he was mentally and morally blind without it.

You and I cannot see any better than Adam could when our mental eyes are blind on issues and without knowledge of them.

It seems that Yahweh put Adam in a catch 22. Damned to being mentally blind and as bright as a brick and unable to reproduce or condemned to death if he educated himself.

Regards
DL

Neither good nor evil exists outside of the mind of man

Good exists. Evil doesn’t.

Do hot and cold exist outside the mind of man?

What about light and darkness?

There is no physical quantification of good or evil.

When there is a thermometer that can measure the evil in the air let me know.

Does cold exist? Does darkness exist?

Yes and they can be quantified

When you can measure "evil" let me know.

WHat would one unit of evil be called do you think?

Maybe we should call it a Satan or a Lucifer.

So tell me how many Lucifers must be present in the air for a murder to be committed?

So cold does not exist. Only heat exists. Darkness does not exist. Only light exists.'

Cold is the absence of heat and darkness is the absence of light.

Evil doesn't exist either. Evil is the absence of good.

Unfairness doesn't exist. Unfairness is the absence of fairness.

G-d said evil exists,
you weren't consulted.

Creation is not bound by the limits of dulaistic human logic.

The epitome of human corruption - when man willfully denies his evil potential.

Everything God created is good.

And yet G-d calls man's heart evil.

Who are you to argue?

God said everything he created is good. It's the first thing you were told.

Man has a choice to do good or not do good. The problem comes when he doesn't do good and fails to admit it and learn from his mistakes.

Which is contradicted by modern neuroscience.

Show me how modern neuroscience contradicts that man doesn't rationalize doing wrong as right?

There is no absolute right and wrong.

Both are merely value judgements. Those value judgements have become part of many cultures because they prove to make survival easier not because there is some metaphysical thing called good or evil

Just pain and pleasure. If you can get away with pleasure without the pain that would be great, right?

So there would be nothing wrong with harming others for your gain, right?

These are your logical conclusions.

I never said just pain and pleasure. People who choose to live together in a cooperative society have to agree on what behaviors are allowed and disallowed in their society.

A society can certainly believe sacrificing people on the altar of some god is perfectly acceptable. I'll even go so far as to say that if any of us were raised in such a society that we too would believe it to be acceptable.

If all there are are opinions then the only thing that is real is pain and pleasure.

No there are as many things as there are opinions.

There are those who believe mortification of the flesh to be a necessary component of worship.

So to them pain is the means they derive pleasure in serving their god.

And to you the only thing that exists in actuality is your pain and pleasure. Do whatever doesn't give you pain and whatever gives you pleasure. Screw everyone else. There is no moral authority. It is whatever you can take for your pleasure.

I do not believe I have the right to harm another person in any way.

In fact I stopped eating meat because I don't want to be responsible for the large scale suffering of animals.

That is my choice, my judgement, not some overriding absolute moral code becase such a thing does not exist outside of what is agreed upon by the members of a society

Sounds like you are making a moral argument to me.

What's wrong with being like an animal?

I'm not. That is my personal choice. i have no moral or any other justification for forcing you to believe as I do.

 

[ding]

So it seems that morality is an artifact of intelligence. That in reality we are different than animals.

It's not morality.

It's a set of standards that are agreed upon by the members of a society.

All the human cultures that have condoned human sacrifice or ritualistic violence were not cultures of animals but of humans

Morals are standards. And they exist for reasons. Logical reasons. Which is why morality is an artifact of intelligence and independent of man.

What you are arguing is that because humans are subjective that there are not absolute standards which is ridiculous.

 

[ding]

Is the knowledge of good and evil, good or evil?

For you, me, and Adam to answer this question; we need the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam may have needed what he was denied by Yahweh to know if the tree of the knowledge of all things, is good or evil to eat from. As scriptures say, he was mentally and morally blind without it.

You and I cannot see any better than Adam could when our mental eyes are blind on issues and without knowledge of them.

It seems that Yahweh put Adam in a catch 22. Damned to being mentally blind and as bright as a brick and unable to reproduce or condemned to death if he educated himself.

Regards
DL

Neither good nor evil exists outside of the mind of man

Good exists. Evil doesn’t.

Do hot and cold exist outside the mind of man?

What about light and darkness?

There is no physical quantification of good or evil.

When there is a thermometer that can measure the evil in the air let me know.

Does cold exist? Does darkness exist?

Yes and they can be quantified

When you can measure "evil" let me know.

WHat would one unit of evil be called do you think?

Maybe we should call it a Satan or a Lucifer.

So tell me how many Lucifers must be present in the air for a murder to be committed?

So cold does not exist. Only heat exists. Darkness does not exist. Only light exists.'

Cold is the absence of heat and darkness is the absence of light.

Evil doesn't exist either. Evil is the absence of good.

Unfairness doesn't exist. Unfairness is the absence of fairness.

G-d said evil exists,
you weren't consulted.

Creation is not bound by the limits of dulaistic human logic.

The epitome of human corruption - when man willfully denies his evil potential.

Everything God created is good.

And yet G-d calls man's heart evil.

Who are you to argue?

God said everything he created is good. It's the first thing you were told.

Man has a choice to do good or not do good. The problem comes when he doesn't do good and fails to admit it and learn from his mistakes.

Which is contradicted by modern neuroscience.

Show me how modern neuroscience contradicts that man doesn't rationalize doing wrong as right?

There is no absolute right and wrong.

Both are merely value judgements. Those value judgements have become part of many cultures because they prove to make survival easier not because there is some metaphysical thing called good or evil

Just pain and pleasure. If you can get away with pleasure without the pain that would be great, right?

So there would be nothing wrong with harming others for your gain, right?

These are your logical conclusions.

I never said just pain and pleasure. People who choose to live together in a cooperative society have to agree on what behaviors are allowed and disallowed in their society.

A society can certainly believe sacrificing people on the altar of some god is perfectly acceptable. I'll even go so far as to say that if any of us were raised in such a society that we too would believe it to be acceptable.

If all there are are opinions then the only thing that is real is pain and pleasure.

No there are as many things as there are opinions.

There are those who believe mortification of the flesh to be a necessary component of worship.

So to them pain is the means they derive pleasure in serving their god.

And to you the only thing that exists in actuality is your pain and pleasure. Do whatever doesn't give you pain and whatever gives you pleasure. Screw everyone else. There is no moral authority. It is whatever you can take for your pleasure.

I do not believe I have the right to harm another person in any way.

In fact I stopped eating meat because I don't want to be responsible for the large scale suffering of animals.

That is my choice, my judgement, not some overriding absolute moral code becase such a thing does not exist outside of what is agreed upon by the members of a society

Sounds like you are making a moral argument to me.

What's wrong with being like an animal?

I'm not. That is my personal choice. i have no moral or any other justification for forcing you to believe as I do.

Exactly, which is why you can't argue I would be wrong to take from you using force.

Whereas, I can make that argument against you. I have authority on my side. You have no authority on your side.

 

[ding]

Let me state this once again. Morals are standards which exist for logical reasons and are independent of man because they exist for logical reasons. man cannot make them be anything he wants them to be.

 

[ding]

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.



Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.



So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.



Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.



If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

 

[LittleNipper]

The knowledge of good and evil isn't evil. GOD is well familiar with what evil is, accomplishes, and promotes. The issue is Adam and Eve already began to believe the Serpent and question GOD's good. Clearly, they became confused immediately.

 

[Blues Man]

So it seems that morality is an artifact of intelligence. That in reality we are different than animals.

It's not morality.

It's a set of standards that are agreed upon by the members of a society.

All the human cultures that have condoned human sacrifice or ritualistic violence were not cultures of animals but of humans

Morals are standards. And they exist for reasons. Logical reasons. Which is why morality is an artifact of intelligence and independent of man.

What you are arguing is that because humans are subjective that there are not absolute standards which is ridiculous.

There are not absolute standards and I have already given examples of the differing standards between civilizations of the past.

In some cultures today it is acceptable to subjugate women to the point of raping with impunity. That is what that group of people have deemed acceptable therefore there is no absolute moral standard.

 

[Blues Man]

Is the knowledge of good and evil, good or evil?

For you, me, and Adam to answer this question; we need the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam may have needed what he was denied by Yahweh to know if the tree of the knowledge of all things, is good or evil to eat from. As scriptures say, he was mentally and morally blind without it.

You and I cannot see any better than Adam could when our mental eyes are blind on issues and without knowledge of them.

It seems that Yahweh put Adam in a catch 22. Damned to being mentally blind and as bright as a brick and unable to reproduce or condemned to death if he educated himself.

Regards
DL

Neither good nor evil exists outside of the mind of man

Good exists. Evil doesn’t.

Do hot and cold exist outside the mind of man?

What about light and darkness?

There is no physical quantification of good or evil.

When there is a thermometer that can measure the evil in the air let me know.

Does cold exist? Does darkness exist?

Yes and they can be quantified

When you can measure "evil" let me know.

WHat would one unit of evil be called do you think?

Maybe we should call it a Satan or a Lucifer.

So tell me how many Lucifers must be present in the air for a murder to be committed?

So cold does not exist. Only heat exists. Darkness does not exist. Only light exists.'

Cold is the absence of heat and darkness is the absence of light.

Evil doesn't exist either. Evil is the absence of good.

Unfairness doesn't exist. Unfairness is the absence of fairness.

G-d said evil exists,
you weren't consulted.

Creation is not bound by the limits of dulaistic human logic.

The epitome of human corruption - when man willfully denies his evil potential.

Everything God created is good.

And yet G-d calls man's heart evil.

Who are you to argue?

God said everything he created is good. It's the first thing you were told.

Man has a choice to do good or not do good. The problem comes when he doesn't do good and fails to admit it and learn from his mistakes.

Which is contradicted by modern neuroscience.

Show me how modern neuroscience contradicts that man doesn't rationalize doing wrong as right?

There is no absolute right and wrong.

Both are merely value judgements. Those value judgements have become part of many cultures because they prove to make survival easier not because there is some metaphysical thing called good or evil

Just pain and pleasure. If you can get away with pleasure without the pain that would be great, right?

So there would be nothing wrong with harming others for your gain, right?

These are your logical conclusions.

I never said just pain and pleasure. People who choose to live together in a cooperative society have to agree on what behaviors are allowed and disallowed in their society.

A society can certainly believe sacrificing people on the altar of some god is perfectly acceptable. I'll even go so far as to say that if any of us were raised in such a society that we too would believe it to be acceptable.

If all there are are opinions then the only thing that is real is pain and pleasure.

No there are as many things as there are opinions.

There are those who believe mortification of the flesh to be a necessary component of worship.

So to them pain is the means they derive pleasure in serving their god.

And to you the only thing that exists in actuality is your pain and pleasure. Do whatever doesn't give you pain and whatever gives you pleasure. Screw everyone else. There is no moral authority. It is whatever you can take for your pleasure.

I do not believe I have the right to harm another person in any way.

In fact I stopped eating meat because I don't want to be responsible for the large scale suffering of animals.

That is my choice, my judgement, not some overriding absolute moral code becase such a thing does not exist outside of what is agreed upon by the members of a society

Sounds like you are making a moral argument to me.

What's wrong with being like an animal?

I'm not. That is my personal choice. i have no moral or any other justification for forcing you to believe as I do.

Exactly, which is why you can't argue I would be wrong to take from you using force.

Whereas, I can make that argument against you. I have authority on my side. You have no authority on your side.

I can make my own judgements of what I deem right and wrong there is no absolute standard just the subjective ones.

Authority is just another agreed upon societal contract the Authority we agree upon in our society is not the authority agreed upon in others. Therefore there is no absolute standard

 

[Blues Man]

Let me state this once again. Morals are standards which exist for logical reasons and are independent of man because they exist for logical reasons. man cannot make them be anything he wants them to be.

They do not exist independent of man because man has created them.

 

[zaangalewa]

Man does not do evil for evil's sake.

FACT

Some German and British soldiers of world war 2 reported that killing is able to make fun. In war it's possible someone kills only on reason it makes fun to kill. In such a situation everyone is able to do evil for evils sake.

What does that have to do with anything?

You said "man doesn't do evil for evil's sake." I showed to you that this sentence finds not a full representation in the reality. I think everyone is able to come in war into the situation to kill just for fun. I'm not sure now - but did Vietnam veterans not report about similar problems?

Man has free will to do good or not do good.

But no one has a free will to recognize what's good or not good. Lots of people think for example to say "right or wrong, my country" is an honorful thing - but indeed it is criminal to say so. ("Right or wrong, my country" = I'm not sure it is good what I do, but I do not care about good and evil as longs as I do what I do for my country.)

Those guys did not do evil for evil's sake. The did "evil" for the sake of their own selfish good; their enjoyment.

No. They did not go to war, because they loved it to go to war. They noticed how the war changed their psychological structure and they did not like to live with lies - as you do now, because you on your own - like everyone else - could be one of them.

And what you say here on pieces of electronic paper is not this, what you are doing on your own. If everything what god creates is always only good then you would not try to change anyones opinion - independent how evil or absurde this opinion is. And I fear exactly this is the brainwashing background to say so. Such ideas eliminate critics. And Christians never said so. God created the devil for example. Jesus was injust, when he damned a fig tree for example. Jesus said in another context "Don't call me good" and so on. You perception is selective. And you don't see that god has many, many, many children - and he is the father of them all.

 

[zaangalewa]

Let me state this once again. Morals are standards which exist for logical reasons and are independent of man because they exist for logical reasons. man cannot make them be anything he wants them to be.

They do not exist independent of man because man has created them.

Man has created mathematics - but this doesn't mean everywhere in the nature is not mathematics too.

 

[zaangalewa]

... There is no absolute right and wrong. ...

Good is everything what helps all and every life.

 

[Blues Man]

Let me state this once again. Morals are standards which exist for logical reasons and are independent of man because they exist for logical reasons. man cannot make them be anything he wants them to be.

They do not exist independent of man because man has created them.

Man has created mathematics - but this doesn't mean everywhere in the nature is not mathematics too.

Math does not exist anywhere but in the mind.

Math is basically a language

 

[rylah]

Man's inclination is for good not evil.

G-d says otherwise.

Write a letter to your congressman.

Did God create evil?

Yes, and gave humanity the freedom to choose.
How many times will you be asking the same question?

So does God contain evil? Where did God get this evil from to create evil?

What do you mean, where did he get it from?

Everything God created is good because God is good. The goodness proceeds from God. How was God able to create evil if his nature does not contain evil?

You’re just subjectively anthropomorphising Him.

Asking who or what He is might be the best place for you to start.

You call it anthropomorphising. I call it using logic, reason and experience.

I start from the position that existence is good. That man is inclined to good and that man prefers good over the absence of good. I rely on observations and my own experience to form that conclusion. If one were to make a tally of every single act and event and catalog that act and event as bad or good, goodness would overwhelmingly dominate the list.

You can know from your own experiences that virtue is the greatest organizing principle in your life. You are drawn to people who behave with virtue and you are repulsed by people who behave without virtue.

You can use logic to understand why you are drawn to people with virtue and why you are repulsed by people devoid of virtue.

Logic tells us that the natural order is set by the creator. So why wouldn't the attributes of the natural world be the attributes of the Creator of the natural world?

Sorry. It’s all too convoluted for me. I’m out.

Except that >

In Jewish thought, one of the things Jews struggle against every day is the "evil inclination," also known as the yetzer hara (יֵצֶר הַרַע, from Genesis 6:5).The yetzer hara is not a force or a being, but rather refers to mankind's innate capacity for doing evil in the world.

From Jewish view of Satan..

Again, you can arrive at that exact same position without believing that God created evil as long as you recognize that what you perceive as evil is in reality absence of good.

I even posted several links of Jewish thought that said the exact same thing.

Actually you can't, neither did you,
and that's exactly the opposite of what Rabbi Sa'adiah Gaon wrote,
you'd know that if you actually learn the context of the discussion he was addressing.
But that would take reading actually Rav Sa'adia Goan, and then Rambam with Ibn 'Ezra.

Kinda better than quoting what someone says they supposedly said.

 

[Mindful]

Let me state this once again. Morals are standards which exist for logical reasons and are independent of man because they exist for logical reasons. man cannot make them be anything he wants them to be.

They do not exist independent of man because man has created them.

Man has created mathematics - but this doesn't mean everywhere in the nature is not mathematics too.

Math does not exist anywhere but in the mind.

Math is basically a language

You don’t have a curious mind?