Is There One Sound/valid Syllogistic Argument For The Existence Of God?

[Hollie]

Yes Justin, to those of us who already understand and are looking back to frame it in perspective.
But for audience members not starting where we are, we are making leaps and skipping steps to them.
I understand that by starting with the conclusion then you work through the process from there.
I am talking about how to reach the audience that got left behind at step 1.

That's fine, though, there is plenty of work to do to gather the minds together who are ok with the proof as is,
I suggest to MD to start a steering committee of people from different faith backgrounds who can deal with
this proof and the process around it. Then use heads or teams in each approach to reach and reconcile with people who don't get this at all.

MD is like the professor trying to present material,
and needs a whole truckload of grad students in every field to work with others who don't
get what the prof is saying in his weird funky accent using examples they can't follow
and don't see how any of this applies to them. It's still enough to START the conversation
but Justin PLEASE UNDERSTAND that not all people process this the same way.

Other people like my friend Daron are still not over the Pentecostal preaching Uncle who
mortified him and the family at his Dad's funeral by announcing they were both going to hell.
Daron spent his Dad's last dying days cleaning up after his colonoscopy and being the only one
to walk his Dad through that while all the other fine Christians in the family stayed away and
enjoyed their heavenly peace of mind by avoiding suffering, and they did go through hell.
but to show up and instead of offering comfort and encouragement to rise above, to use the
funeral to preach and condemn someone to hell when they are already there, do you see
that's going to turn someone against the whole Christian thing in any form.

so to deal with people who don't get or trust the judgment of Christians.
it is wiser to start with where they are and why. and undo some of the damage and
negative perceptions ENGRAINED in peoples minds as THEIR reality.

This REALITY can change but the wounds have to heal first and cant always
be rushed with a miracle cure overnight. Most people ESPECIALLY Secular Gentiles
go through steps in a process of revisiting and healing each memory that told them
to stay away from Christians who are bigoted mean hypocrite jerkholes.

This is not an overnight fix, but takes time and individual unique steps to heal the hurts.
If you and MD are not gifted in this area, maybe Boss and me can work on that level
and process since we understand how people come in with different realities.

maybe that is not your job to address. so we need to form teams
and I even know a JW Elder who may be open since his best friend is a
secular gentile Constitutionalist and they understand they have different backgrounds for a reason.

I know some Church of Christ members concerned about addressing the JW and
liked the idea of coming together to work out longstanding issues to reconcile in Christ.

There are many different steps these people and groups need to go through
to get on the same page. So the process AROUND the proof is much larger and diverse.

The final test is at the END if people can be on the same page with you me MD Boss et al.
then we know we have forgiven and resolved our differences about God Jesus the Bible
Christianity religion etc. So it may be used to launch the process and separate
sheep from goats, but the process to work through issues and reach resolution is much
greater. the proof may also be used at the end to show we are all on the same page AFTER
we hash out all the issues with religion it brings up. I'm talking a worldwide consensus
so Jews and Muslims, Dems and GOP, blacks and whites have to make peace also to unite.

That's far beyond what your proof outlines guidelines for doing!
but thats what it takes to form a consensus on God through agreement in Christ.
all grievances will need to be rebuked and redressed because they are interconnected
in one collective spiritual peace process including everyone.

Thanks Justin you handle your part
and I will call together the people to handle the different tribes.
Yours truly,
Love, Emily

Well, I'm not certain about all this or if I'm sharp enough to get all this, but this much I do know, everyone gets the seven things beginning with the idea of God, the Creator. Those are real simple and nobody needs to be anything but maybe at least 13 years old to get.

Folks are turning the ABCs of a very simple matter into rocket science. Everybody with a sound, developmentally mature mind knows or apprehends these things about the problems of existence and origin:

The Seven Things
1. We exist!
2. The cosmological order exists!
3. The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds! So the possibility that God exists cannot be logically ruled out!
4. If God does exist, He would necessarily be, logically, a Being of unparalleled greatness!
5. Currently, science cannot verify whether or not God exists!
6. It is not logically possible to say or think that God (the Creator) doesn't exist, whether He actually exists outside the logic of our minds or not (See Posts 2599 and 2600)!
7. All six of the above things are objectively, universally and logically true for human knowers/thinkers!

Those are the facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin. The objective facts of human cognition report, you decide. God just might be waiting for you on the other side of that leap of faith. There's plenty of rational and empirical evidence for His existence. Take the leap of faith now or don't. It's your decision, not mine.​

All the rest of the things I've talked about go to the apprehensible details of #4. Not everybody can follow that or will even try because they've made up their minds about things they know nothing about or have never thought about.

But what all can and should logically understand, that which is self-evident, regarding #4: to assume that the reality of the construct of God would be anything less than the very highest conceivable standard of being unjustifiably begs the question. From an objective standpoint, finite minds are in no position to rationally presuppose anything less, as such a thing would necessarily be an apriority of a purely subjective standard of belief. An objective standard presupposes nothing less than infinitely unparalleled greatness and, therefore, absolute perfection.

It doesn’t matter that we can't comprehend the totality of that. We can and do apprehend the meaning of a highest conceivable standard of perfection whatever that may entail. In other words, logically, nothing created could be greater than the Creator of all other things, and what is the highest conceivable standard of being in this regard: an eternally and transcendentally self-subsistent, i.e., non-contingent, sentient Being of infinitely absolute perfection!

Earlier it was wrongfully asserted, in my opinion, that the objective standard was not biblical. Well, goody, but even if that were true, that would be the interposition of a purely subjective standard of belief that is not going to wash with any person who recognizes the objectively uncontestable standard that doesn't beg the question. In short, objectively, it's the only standard that leaves the matter open-ended without any conceivable allegation of preconceived bias.
__________________________________

By the way, something just occurred to me. I think I wrote interjection earlier on this thread in the place of interposition. LOL! Yippee! Yahoo!

Actually, bible thumping zealot, I need to further modify your previously modified "The Five Things", AKA, "The Seven Things", hereinafter known as "The Things We Keep Changing Because They're Been Shown To Be Viciously Circular and Pointless Piffle".

6a. It is not logically possible to say or think or contemplate or consider or propound or advance any consideration that Zeus (The God) (the Creator) (the all-knowing, all-seeing, most beneficent True God of The Gods) doesn't exist whether He actually exists or not... "because I say so"

(thus, decree by Ayatollah, Field Marshall General, Jehovah's Witness Neighborhood Canvas Committee Leader, Master of a Kingdom Hall (drum roll please), M. Pompous Rawling)

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Gödel:

"The first incompleteness theorem states that no consistent system of axioms whose theorems can be listed by an "effective procedure" is capable of proving all truths about the relations of the natural numbers.. For any such system, there will always be statements about the natural numbers that are true, but that are unprovable within the system. The second incompleteness theorem, an extension of the first, shows that such a system cannot demonstrate its own consistency."

G del s incompleteness theorems - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

So...the paradox is that the theorem which proves that theorems are not really theorems is kind of haphazardly wonky.

Possibly anyway...

.

Good post!

But it's not actually a theorem that proves that theorems regarding the various sets of all numbers are not theorems; rather, it proves that we don't have a unifying principle that would universally resolve the points at which theorems break down, just like we don't a unifying principle that resolves the points at which the various sets of theoretical laws of physics break down. The puzzle is huge. For something really mind-blowing check out the mathematical science of infinity.

 

[percysunshine]

.

I think Gödel put God in his name just to piss everyone off.

The original point stands. Science and religion are mutually compatible, by definition.

.

 

[emilynghiem]

Maybe in your fantasy world, 2+2 doesn't equal 4, but in the real world, it's true, 2+2=4. I swear!!!

Again, you are failing to read and comprehend my posts and simply lobbing shit bombs at me. You've taken what I said out of context and want to imply that I live in fantasy world. I live in the same material reality that you live in.

If you read up on electrons, you will find that electrons appear, disappear, exist in two places at the same time or nowhere at all. So... whenever the electron is not appearing to exist, does it still exist? What about when it exists in two places at the same time? How can 2+2=4 if any one thing can be present in two places at the same time or not appear to exist at all? ...yeah... it's bizarre, isn't it?

So in your world, nothing is true?

No, in my world (and yours), truth is unknown. We believe things to be true, we can't know they are.

Yes, we can.

Yes, we can AGREE what is truth.
We could always be wrong, it could always change.
But we could AGREE on that also, that it is faith based and based on agreement.

MD I AGREE that by agreeing to assign the LOGIC variables
we can PROVE by definition what is consistent or not.

Where the FAITH comes in is this applies to all people.
People still need to AGREE to use those logic definitions.
So you are talking about the logistic level of proof.

Boss and I are talking about "proving or convincing"
people to reach agreement in real life.

So this is the difference between writing out the perfect script
and really producing it and getting people to go along with the movie.

You can preach all you want about the perfect script
but if no one will help you produce the movie to share with others
then your perfect script stays on the page, or your perfect film stays in the can.

I'm looking at what it takes to produce it
where it plays to the audience.

 

[emilynghiem]

6a. It is not logically possible to say or think or contemplate or consider or propound or advance any consideration that Zeus (The God) (the Creator) (the all-knowing, all-seeing, most beneficent True God of The Gods) doesn't exist whether He actually exists or not... "because I say so"

(thus, decree by Ayatollah, Field Marshall General, Jehovah's Witness Neighborhood Canvas Committee Leader, Master of a Kingdom Hall (drum roll please), M. Pompous Rawling)

Hi Hollie I agree with you that MD has an obvious bias toward the position that God exists.
But if you are going to criticize MD it is equally fair to criticize YOU for the opposite bias that God does not exist.

Is that fair?

I can forgive both you and ask that you forgive people of the opposite bias.

the neutral objective position is to stay open that since technically we can
never prove nor disprove God (except if we all AGREE to define God = something we agree already exists)
then one person's bias or another's should be treated equally.

I also see that Breezewood and Sealybobo have a bias against God existing.
But Sealybobo is willing to work with me without namecalling marring the communication and sharing between us.
Derideo_Te also is very civil and fair, and presents honest criticisms without getting too personal.
They present points very effectively.

Why can't we ask the same of you and MD not to namecall if someone has the opposite bias?

Especially if you do not like when theists namecall and insult people with opposite views or biases
it makes little sense to do this back, and double the trouble between us.

Can we PLEASE stick to the logical points and content of arguments
and lay off the personal poking at people. If the response to the TAG
approach is NO this makes no sense then the answer is NO. What
do you suggest in place of this, that would move in a more constructive direction to get somewhere better than this?

Thanks Hollie
Let's get creative with solutions instead of destructive with problems.

 

[BreezeWood]

Again, using mathematical formulas of probability, you are probably right about other inhabitable planets, but we really don't know for sure until we can go there or at least see what is there. But I don't follow how that proves that it is not by chance that Earth exists. (Don't get me wrong--I do not believe Earth exists purely by chance but I am arguing for what can be logically concluded and not what is based on religious doctrines or dogma.)

Again, using mathematical formulas of probability, you are probably right about other inhabitable planets, but we really don't know for sure until we can go there or at least see what is there.

... until we can go there


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

however the facts are there is not the ability for inhabitants of our planet to explore the universe and will die doing so without artificial means, there is no atmosphere to sustain life between heavenly bodies.

well, what exists in our minds today is not the same as during Antiquity when humanity believed travel through space was as an Eagle flying to the moon.

there simply is not a relevant connection between what is in the minds of humanity and the reality humanity perceives and the actual cosmological order as it exists. without scientific verification.


- what Rawlings claims to be * Hardwired * from his TAG's deity into the mind of humanity is nothing more than a futile exercise of speculative comedy.

Sire, can we have a clarification on how your TAG's " Creator " has hardwired the minds of mankind ...

.

OK so given
The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

so does the idea that God does NOT exist,
this idea exists in our minds

and "there is not a relevant connection" without scientific verification

Foxfyre is right. Your statements should apply back to you equally if they are TRUE.

And this is consistent with GT and Godel, PercySunshine and Boss
that we can neither prove nor disprove God who represents something infinite
beyond the scope of man's finite minds and science

Very good!

Breezewood do you apply the same concepts about "things existing in our minds"
to yourself as you do to other people's concepts?

Breezewood if they don't apply to you, and you are the exception,
then your statement is not universal but is faulty, if it only applies to other people's ideas not yours.

Is it true or not?

Breezewood do you apply the same concepts about "things existing in our minds" to yourself as you do to other people's concepts?

the idea of being Hardwired by a Deity is a claim made by M.D. Rawlings.


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

"exists in our minds" ...


concepts of the cosmological order during Antiquity was different than today's and did not distinguish between Earth as an oasis but as all heavenly bodies being the same - a presence of God the same as Earth, all as a Garden. the Creator of everything for Antiquity is a different concept than the present day reality that only Earth is habitable, -

therefore a Hardwire (by God) for the concept of God the Creator is disproved by the inconsistency that evolved over time for what the Creation itself actually is and for christians that concept has become far more rigid and less yielding to their exogenous description.

I am agreeing with you, there is no Hardwire.

and not with you - a Hardwire exists for the belief in God by God contrary to an individuals personal disposition.

.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

6a. It is not logically possible to say or think or contemplate or consider or propound or advance any consideration that Zeus (The God) (the Creator) (the all-knowing, all-seeing, most beneficent True God of The Gods) doesn't exist whether He actually exists or not... "because I say so"

(thus, decree by Ayatollah, Field Marshall General, Jehovah's Witness Neighborhood Canvas Committee Leader, Master of a Kingdom Hall (drum roll please), M. Pompous Rawling)

Hi Hollie I agree with you that MD has an obvious bias toward the position that God exists.
But if you are going to criticize MD it is equally fair to criticize YOU for the opposite bias that God does not exist.

.

I've never made any secret about the fact that I believe the evidence overwhelmingly supports the conclusion that God exists, but that has no bearing on the objective, even-handed manner in which I have presented the facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

the idea of being Hardwired by a Deity is a claim made by M.D. Rawlings.


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

"exists in our minds" ...

.

False. I have never asserted any such thing without qualification. What I have asserted, objectively, and rightly so, is that the incontrovertible axiom that God exits is bioneurologically hardwired. That's a rational and empirical fact of human cognition.

What you do with that is up to you.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

.

I think Gödel put God in his name just to piss everyone off.

The original point stands. Science and religion are mutually compatible, by definition.

.

Fair enough. Thanks again for the post and a great read.

 

[emilynghiem]

Again, using mathematical formulas of probability, you are probably right about other inhabitable planets, but we really don't know for sure until we can go there or at least see what is there. But I don't follow how that proves that it is not by chance that Earth exists. (Don't get me wrong--I do not believe Earth exists purely by chance but I am arguing for what can be logically concluded and not what is based on religious doctrines or dogma.)

Again, using mathematical formulas of probability, you are probably right about other inhabitable planets, but we really don't know for sure until we can go there or at least see what is there.

... until we can go there


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

however the facts are there is not the ability for inhabitants of our planet to explore the universe and will die doing so without artificial means, there is no atmosphere to sustain life between heavenly bodies.

well, what exists in our minds today is not the same as during Antiquity when humanity believed travel through space was as an Eagle flying to the moon.

there simply is not a relevant connection between what is in the minds of humanity and the reality humanity perceives and the actual cosmological order as it exists. without scientific verification.


- what Rawlings claims to be * Hardwired * from his TAG's deity into the mind of humanity is nothing more than a futile exercise of speculative comedy.

Sire, can we have a clarification on how your TAG's " Creator " has hardwired the minds of mankind ...

.

OK so given
The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

so does the idea that God does NOT exist,
this idea exists in our minds

and "there is not a relevant connection" without scientific verification

Foxfyre is right. Your statements should apply back to you equally if they are TRUE.

And this is consistent with GT and Godel, PercySunshine and Boss
that we can neither prove nor disprove God who represents something infinite
beyond the scope of man's finite minds and science

Very good!

Breezewood do you apply the same concepts about "things existing in our minds"
to yourself as you do to other people's concepts?

Breezewood if they don't apply to you, and you are the exception,
then your statement is not universal but is faulty, if it only applies to other people's ideas not yours.

Is it true or not?

Breezewood do you apply the same concepts about "things existing in our minds" to yourself as you do to other people's concepts?

the idea of being Hardwired by a Deity is a claim made by M.D. Rawlings.


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

"exists in our minds" ...


concepts of the cosmological order during Antiquity was different than today's and did not distinguish between Earth as an oasis but as all heavenly bodies being the same - a presence of God the same as Earth, all as a Garden. the Creator of everything for Antiquity is a different concept than the ipresent day reality that only Earth is habitable, -

therefore a Hardwire (by God) for the concept of God the Creator is disproved by the inconsistency that evolved over time for what the Creation itself actually is and for christians that concept has become far more rigid and less yielding to their exogenous description.

I am agreeing with you, there is no Hardwire.

and not with you - a Hardwire exists for the belief in God by God contrary to an individuals personal disposition.

.

OK so we have already established that "belief in God" is hardwired

then is rejecting this also hardwired
INSISTING it is NOT existent?

Please answer the question:
"OK so given
The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

so does the idea that God does NOT exist,"
this idea exists in our minds

Do you AGREE the opposite assertion also applies to you?

Breezewood: "Neutral" would mean someone neither rejects or accepts
but remains "open either way"

Since you are NOT objectively neutral either way
but you take the STANCE that God does NOT exist
isn't this also an "idea that exists in your mind"
even as a response to a hardwired God.

Do you agree you are no longer neutral if you take a hard stance?

Thanks if you can please answer honestly

 

[emilynghiem]

6a. It is not logically possible to say or think or contemplate or consider or propound or advance any consideration that Zeus (The God) (the Creator) (the all-knowing, all-seeing, most beneficent True God of The Gods) doesn't exist whether He actually exists or not... "because I say so"

(thus, decree by Ayatollah, Field Marshall General, Jehovah's Witness Neighborhood Canvas Committee Leader, Master of a Kingdom Hall (drum roll please), M. Pompous Rawling)

Hi Hollie I agree with you that MD has an obvious bias toward the position that God exists.
But if you are going to criticize MD it is equally fair to criticize YOU for the opposite bias that God does not exist.

.

I've never made any secret about the fact that I believe the evidence overwhelmingly supports the conclusion that God exists, but that has no bearing on the objective, even-handed manner in which I have presented the facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin.

1. OK so you believe the evidence
(even though in your own words that Science only verifies and doesn't prove)
2. And you explain that the TAG proof works by definition of God
3. but NO I do NOT agree that your bias
"has no bearing on the "even-handed" manner" in presenting facts.

Look at your msgs.

You don't insult me and Justin
as you do others such as by saying "don't trust that person"
and making insinuations about the people rejecting your proof.

This shows a bias because you favor your views.

Hollie has this, too, by insulting the theists personally.

Sorry that is NOT perfectly objective
but reflects a personal bias.

Please check t his bias by addressing Hollie and others
with respect as you do with Justin and with me when I make sense to you.

when you criticize how I say things that's fine when it is for correction.
no need for personal insinuations as yuo and Hollie seem to demean each other in your responses.

You and Boss seemed to restore respect between you.

Can you please try the same with Hollie
as Christians we are called to be the first to offer forgiveness
as God freely offers to us. If i have to ask Hollie and other
nontheists and nonchristians to be the first to forgive,
it is downright embarrassing when the Christians run around
teaching forgiveness but it's always the people imposed upon
who are forced to forgive first!

Can you be the bigger person and extend the Olive branch
as you effectively resolved issues with Boss.

there is no need for namecalling and insulting personally,
especially when you turn right around and claim your
bias does not affect how you present your points to others!

What?

 

[BreezeWood]

This is the behavior of persons who are telling us they have no real regard for the dignity, the humanity, the rights of others. It's not accidental that most atheists tend to be statists.

you haven't just conducted yourself as you have made the accusation ... what Atheists are there you are talking about as perhaps only one comes to mind and no one that fits your description.

.

the idea of being Hardwired by a Deity is a claim made by M.D. Rawlings.


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

"exists in our minds" ...

.

False. I have never asserted any such thing without qualification. What I have asserted, objectively, and rightly so, is that the incontrovertible axiom that God exits is bioneurologically hardwired. That's a rational and empirical fact of human cognition.

What you do with that is up to you.

False. I have never asserted any such thing without qualification. What I have asserted, objectively, and rightly so, is that the incontrovertible axiom that God exits is bioneurologically hardwired. That's a rational and empirical fact of human cognition.

no, it is not bioneurologically anything, you simply do not understand the Almighty ... to bad for you.

.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Again, using mathematical formulas of probability, you are probably right about other inhabitable planets, but we really don't know for sure until we can go there or at least see what is there. But I don't follow how that proves that it is not by chance that Earth exists. (Don't get me wrong--I do not believe Earth exists purely by chance but I am arguing for what can be logically concluded and not what is based on religious doctrines or dogma.)

Again, using mathematical formulas of probability, you are probably right about other inhabitable planets, but we really don't know for sure until we can go there or at least see what is there.

... until we can go there


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

however the facts are there is not the ability for inhabitants of our planet to explore the universe and will die doing so without artificial means, there is no atmosphere to sustain life between heavenly bodies.

well, what exists in our minds today is not the same as during Antiquity when humanity believed travel through space was as an Eagle flying to the moon.

there simply is not a relevant connection between what is in the minds of humanity and the reality humanity perceives and the actual cosmological order as it exists. without scientific verification.


- what Rawlings claims to be * Hardwired * from his TAG's deity into the mind of humanity is nothing more than a futile exercise of speculative comedy.

Sire, can we have a clarification on how your TAG's " Creator " has hardwired the minds of mankind ...

.

OK so given
The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

so does the idea that God does NOT exist,
this idea exists in our minds

and "there is not a relevant connection" without scientific verification

Foxfyre is right. Your statements should apply back to you equally if they are TRUE.

And this is consistent with GT and Godel, PercySunshine and Boss
that we can neither prove nor disprove God who represents something infinite
beyond the scope of man's finite minds and science

Very good!

Breezewood do you apply the same concepts about "things existing in our minds"
to yourself as you do to other people's concepts?

Breezewood if they don't apply to you, and you are the exception,
then your statement is not universal but is faulty, if it only applies to other people's ideas not yours.

Is it true or not?

Breezewood do you apply the same concepts about "things existing in our minds" to yourself as you do to other people's concepts?

the idea of being Hardwired by a Deity is a claim made by M.D. Rawlings.


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

"exists in our minds" ...


concepts of the cosmological order during Antiquity was different than today's and did not distinguish between Earth as an oasis but as all heavenly bodies being the same - a presence of God the same as Earth, all as a Garden. the Creator of everything for Antiquity is a different concept than the ipresent day reality that only Earth is habitable, -

therefore a Hardwire (by God) for the concept of God the Creator is disproved by the inconsistency that evolved over time for what the Creation itself actually is and for christians that concept has become far more rigid and less yielding to their exogenous description.

I am agreeing with you, there is no Hardwire.

and not with you - a Hardwire exists for the belief in God by God contrary to an individuals personal disposition.

.

OK so we have already established that "belief in God" is hardwired

then is rejecting this also hardwired
INSISTING it is NOT existent?

Let us be clear. Are you suggesting that an inability to perceive the axiom as extrapolated by the laws of organic thought could be hardwired?

If so, the answer is generally no. That's not possible for any one of a sound, developmentally mature mind. The only exception would necessarily entail some kind of neurological abnormality. Hollie is either lying like some others or is thinking number 2: http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10039225/

 

[emilynghiem]

no, it is not bioneurologically anything, you simply do not understand the Almighty ... to bad for you.

.

Dear Breezewood:
Would it help to make a distinction between
1. that which we call God which is self-existent
MD has said that Science cannot prove this and can only verify/falsify information

so this is clearly separate from the proof he is trying ot focus on

2. the part that is hardwired is man's Definition and connection with this God

If you look up the "God part of the Brain"
even if you do or do not believe in the self-existing God outside human perception

we CAN point to the scientific reaction in the brain
that corresponds to BELIEF in God and call that
some kind of survival mechanism or whtever you want

3. I was confused sorry
when i first started reading your msg BW
I thought you were a spiritual believer including the notion of God in some form

then I read your msgs here and you seemed to REJECT the Christian God
instead of including this equally as a valid way of representing or expressing God

Now I see you are saying that the greater God is not the same
as the Christian God which is a false construct to you

Why does it have to be false or rejected

Why can't we work with people who represent God this way

Buddhist represent the higher truth as Wisdom
as Buddha Nature

Some people represent the forces of Life or Creation
as Mother Nature or Mother Earth

why can't we let each person or tribe have their way of expressing the greater God or Almighty

and then just work things out from there

Why Breezewood
Why this need to reject each other's representation of God
why can't we put all the different ways together and use them all for good purpose?

it seems we waste time rejecting each other's ways of understanding and
depicting the forces of life and nature

Can you tell me why it is wrong for Christians to have their own understanding of God?

 

[BreezeWood]

Again, using mathematical formulas of probability, you are probably right about other inhabitable planets, but we really don't know for sure until we can go there or at least see what is there. But I don't follow how that proves that it is not by chance that Earth exists. (Don't get me wrong--I do not believe Earth exists purely by chance but I am arguing for what can be logically concluded and not what is based on religious doctrines or dogma.)

Again, using mathematical formulas of probability, you are probably right about other inhabitable planets, but we really don't know for sure until we can go there or at least see what is there.

... until we can go there


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

however the facts are there is not the ability for inhabitants of our planet to explore the universe and will die doing so without artificial means, there is no atmosphere to sustain life between heavenly bodies.

well, what exists in our minds today is not the same as during Antiquity when humanity believed travel through space was as an Eagle flying to the moon.

there simply is not a relevant connection between what is in the minds of humanity and the reality humanity perceives and the actual cosmological order as it exists. without scientific verification.


- what Rawlings claims to be * Hardwired * from his TAG's deity into the mind of humanity is nothing more than a futile exercise of speculative comedy.

Sire, can we have a clarification on how your TAG's " Creator " has hardwired the minds of mankind ...

.

OK so given
The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

so does the idea that God does NOT exist,
this idea exists in our minds

and "there is not a relevant connection" without scientific verification

Foxfyre is right. Your statements should apply back to you equally if they are TRUE.

And this is consistent with GT and Godel, PercySunshine and Boss
that we can neither prove nor disprove God who represents something infinite
beyond the scope of man's finite minds and science

Very good!

Breezewood do you apply the same concepts about "things existing in our minds"
to yourself as you do to other people's concepts?

Breezewood if they don't apply to you, and you are the exception,
then your statement is not universal but is faulty, if it only applies to other people's ideas not yours.

Is it true or not?

Breezewood do you apply the same concepts about "things existing in our minds" to yourself as you do to other people's concepts?

the idea of being Hardwired by a Deity is a claim made by M.D. Rawlings.


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

"exists in our minds" ...


concepts of the cosmological order during Antiquity was different than today's and did not distinguish between Earth as an oasis but as all heavenly bodies being the same - a presence of God the same as Earth, all as a Garden. the Creator of everything for Antiquity is a different concept than the ipresent day reality that only Earth is habitable, -

therefore a Hardwire (by God) for the concept of God the Creator is disproved by the inconsistency that evolved over time for what the Creation itself actually is and for christians that concept has become far more rigid and less yielding to their exogenous description.

I am agreeing with you, there is no Hardwire.

and not with you - a Hardwire exists for the belief in God by God contrary to an individuals personal disposition.

.

OK so we have already established that "belief in God" is hardwired

then is rejecting this also hardwired
INSISTING it is NOT existent?

Please answer the question:
"OK so given
The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

so does the idea that God does NOT exist,"
this idea exists in our minds

Do you AGREE the opposite assertion also applies to you?

Breezewood: "Neutral" would mean someone neither rejects or accepts
but remains "open either way"

Since you are NOT objectively neutral either way
but you take the STANCE that God does NOT exist
isn't this also an "idea that exists in your mind"
even as a response to a hardwired God.

Do you agree you are no longer neutral if you take a hard stance?

Thanks if you can please answer honestly

emilynghiem: OK so we have already established that "belief in God" is hardwired

no emilynghiem - I do not agree with you ... your posts remind me of another time and the hearts of others.

.

 

[emilynghiem]

Again, using mathematical formulas of probability, you are probably right about other inhabitable planets, but we really don't know for sure until we can go there or at least see what is there. But I don't follow how that proves that it is not by chance that Earth exists. (Don't get me wrong--I do not believe Earth exists purely by chance but I am arguing for what can be logically concluded and not what is based on religious doctrines or dogma.)

Again, using mathematical formulas of probability, you are probably right about other inhabitable planets, but we really don't know for sure until we can go there or at least see what is there.

... until we can go there


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

however the facts are there is not the ability for inhabitants of our planet to explore the universe and will die doing so without artificial means, there is no atmosphere to sustain life between heavenly bodies.

well, what exists in our minds today is not the same as during Antiquity when humanity believed travel through space was as an Eagle flying to the moon.

there simply is not a relevant connection between what is in the minds of humanity and the reality humanity perceives and the actual cosmological order as it exists. without scientific verification.


- what Rawlings claims to be * Hardwired * from his TAG's deity into the mind of humanity is nothing more than a futile exercise of speculative comedy.

Sire, can we have a clarification on how your TAG's " Creator " has hardwired the minds of mankind ...

.

OK so given
The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

so does the idea that God does NOT exist,
this idea exists in our minds

and "there is not a relevant connection" without scientific verification

Foxfyre is right. Your statements should apply back to you equally if they are TRUE.

And this is consistent with GT and Godel, PercySunshine and Boss
that we can neither prove nor disprove God who represents something infinite
beyond the scope of man's finite minds and science

Very good!

Breezewood do you apply the same concepts about "things existing in our minds"
to yourself as you do to other people's concepts?

Breezewood if they don't apply to you, and you are the exception,
then your statement is not universal but is faulty, if it only applies to other people's ideas not yours.

Is it true or not?

Breezewood do you apply the same concepts about "things existing in our minds" to yourself as you do to other people's concepts?

the idea of being Hardwired by a Deity is a claim made by M.D. Rawlings.


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

"exists in our minds" ...


concepts of the cosmological order during Antiquity was different than today's and did not distinguish between Earth as an oasis but as all heavenly bodies being the same - a presence of God the same as Earth, all as a Garden. the Creator of everything for Antiquity is a different concept than the ipresent day reality that only Earth is habitable, -

therefore a Hardwire (by God) for the concept of God the Creator is disproved by the inconsistency that evolved over time for what the Creation itself actually is and for christians that concept has become far more rigid and less yielding to their exogenous description.

I am agreeing with you, there is no Hardwire.

and not with you - a Hardwire exists for the belief in God by God contrary to an individuals personal disposition.

.

OK so we have already established that "belief in God" is hardwired

then is rejecting this also hardwired
INSISTING it is NOT existent?

Let us be clear. Are you suggesting that an inability to perceive the axiom as extrapolated by the laws of organic thought could be hardwired?

If so, the answer is generally no. That's not possible for any one of a sound, developmentally mature mind. The only exception would necessarily entail some kind of neurological abnormality. Hollie is either lying like some others or is thinking number 2: http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10039225/

Yes and no
1. I agree that the default is to be perfectly neutral and open to different ways
I think Boss expresses this, but admit we all favor our own views and are not going to be perfectly objective.
We can at least acknowledge our biases for and against, and quit knocking each other for own leanings

2. However, whether natural or unnatural, emotional or spiritually engrained
I DO FIND that people who are NONtheist are geared that way to be secular minded.

I equate it to being color blind vs. mixing reds and greens or seeing all colors.

Or how some animals like dogs can hear things that are beyond the range of human hearing.

My friend Olivia can receive messages from God that are more
direct than when I receive divine insights that come as vague ideas.

So our channels are designed differently.

Some people see physical visions, I have friends who can see demons.

Some people have no notion and are left in the dark about
what is this business of Jesus and talking with God. it makes
no sense to them because they don't have those spiritual experiences.
It seems unreal how that can be possible.

So in general MD it can go either way:
in some cases people being excessive anti-theist are
reacting against social conditioning and this is not natural
but reacting to equally unnatural abuses that have conditioned people to react that way.

That is one level and I hope that can change as we forgive and correct issues of abuse
tha tmake people turn against and reject God Jesus and religion.

in some cases however
people are naturally secular gentile

God creates some people to think in black and white
as a check on reality.

So when I get too emotional and empathize too much with others,
it helps me to consult with someone who is more neutral and objective
and get feedback from them to check myself.

we help each other this way

God designs some of us to be of this tribe or that one
to serve different purposes and reach different audiences.

All these ways still answer to the one authority of law
that Jesus represents as Justice for all.

but there are many branches from the same tree, to reach in all directions.

If we only had one trunk that tree would be almost useless.

We have all these branches for a reason.

And I find that the Secular Gentiles who look at the world
Nontheistically
serve a purpose as a check and balance on the other branch

I think you and Boss and others have an advantage
if we can relate to both branches.
so we should use our gifts wisely to coordinate
our spiritual gifts and not fight to ax off this branch or that one.

Sorry if it's not all one way.

There are some who are hardwired to see black and white nontheistically
and there are some who are conditioned by social karma to reject God and religion.

It depends on the person which factor or factors apply to them.

 

[emilynghiem]

Again, using mathematical formulas of probability, you are probably right about other inhabitable planets, but we really don't know for sure until we can go there or at least see what is there. But I don't follow how that proves that it is not by chance that Earth exists. (Don't get me wrong--I do not believe Earth exists purely by chance but I am arguing for what can be logically concluded and not what is based on religious doctrines or dogma.)

Again, using mathematical formulas of probability, you are probably right about other inhabitable planets, but we really don't know for sure until we can go there or at least see what is there.

... until we can go there


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

however the facts are there is not the ability for inhabitants of our planet to explore the universe and will die doing so without artificial means, there is no atmosphere to sustain life between heavenly bodies.

well, what exists in our minds today is not the same as during Antiquity when humanity believed travel through space was as an Eagle flying to the moon.

there simply is not a relevant connection between what is in the minds of humanity and the reality humanity perceives and the actual cosmological order as it exists. without scientific verification.


- what Rawlings claims to be * Hardwired * from his TAG's deity into the mind of humanity is nothing more than a futile exercise of speculative comedy.

Sire, can we have a clarification on how your TAG's " Creator " has hardwired the minds of mankind ...

.

OK so given
The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

so does the idea that God does NOT exist,
this idea exists in our minds

and "there is not a relevant connection" without scientific verification

Foxfyre is right. Your statements should apply back to you equally if they are TRUE.

And this is consistent with GT and Godel, PercySunshine and Boss
that we can neither prove nor disprove God who represents something infinite
beyond the scope of man's finite minds and science

Very good!

Breezewood do you apply the same concepts about "things existing in our minds"
to yourself as you do to other people's concepts?

Breezewood if they don't apply to you, and you are the exception,
then your statement is not universal but is faulty, if it only applies to other people's ideas not yours.

Is it true or not?

Breezewood do you apply the same concepts about "things existing in our minds" to yourself as you do to other people's concepts?

the idea of being Hardwired by a Deity is a claim made by M.D. Rawlings.


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

"exists in our minds" ...


concepts of the cosmological order during Antiquity was different than today's and did not distinguish between Earth as an oasis but as all heavenly bodies being the same - a presence of God the same as Earth, all as a Garden. the Creator of everything for Antiquity is a different concept than the ipresent day reality that only Earth is habitable, -

therefore a Hardwire (by God) for the concept of God the Creator is disproved by the inconsistency that evolved over time for what the Creation itself actually is and for christians that concept has become far more rigid and less yielding to their exogenous description.

I am agreeing with you, there is no Hardwire.

and not with you - a Hardwire exists for the belief in God by God contrary to an individuals personal disposition.

.

OK so we have already established that "belief in God" is hardwired

then is rejecting this also hardwired
INSISTING it is NOT existent?

Please answer the question:
"OK so given
The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

so does the idea that God does NOT exist,"
this idea exists in our minds

Do you AGREE the opposite assertion also applies to you?

Breezewood: "Neutral" would mean someone neither rejects or accepts
but remains "open either way"

Since you are NOT objectively neutral either way
but you take the STANCE that God does NOT exist
isn't this also an "idea that exists in your mind"
even as a response to a hardwired God.

Do you agree you are no longer neutral if you take a hard stance?

Thanks if you can please answer honestly

emilynghiem: OK so we have already established that "belief in God" is hardwired

no emilynghiem - I do not agree with you ... your posts remind me of another time and the hearts of others.

.

OK how do I remind you of Hitler?

Which groups am I oppressing and against?

I include ALL groups, ALL people, ALL views beliefs interests
and rights to consent or dissent, accept or reject, as included in
the process of establishing God's truth and the Kingdom of God.

You are the one saying Christian God is false and rejecting people.

Can you name ONE person or ONE group I reject?
And I will apologize for giving you the WRONG and OPPOSITE
impression of what my views are about.

thanks BW

I don't see how this applies to me,
please explain!

I am a Universalist who believes in full and equal inclusion.

Do you REALLY believe Hitler included and respected all people?
Wasn't he trying to eradicate the Jews, Gypsies, Catholics, gays
and other undesireables?

BreezeWood this is shocking to me to be compared with Hitler.
Do we need to take this into the Bullring?
If you cannot explain how I am like Hitler
I am happy to ask others to explain this to me!

Even Luddly who cannot stand my msgs
would not put me on the same level as Hitler.

That could even be seen as an INSULT like saying Hitler
was fluffy harmless bunny rabbit when he compelled mass
genocide and torture camps. I think you insult the Jews
by saying I am like that, which is belittling the atrocities done.

If you do not owe an apology to me, or Hitler,
you owe one to Jewish people who suffered historic losses and wounds.

????

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

This is the behavior of persons who are telling us they have no real regard for the dignity, the humanity, the rights of others. It's not accidental that most atheists tend to be statists.

you haven't just conducted yourself as you have made the accusation ... what Atheists are there you are talking about as perhaps only one comes to mind and no one that fits your description.

.

the idea of being Hardwired by a Deity is a claim made by M.D. Rawlings.


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

"exists in our minds" ...

.

False. I have never asserted any such thing without qualification. What I have asserted, objectively, and rightly so, is that the incontrovertible axiom that God exits is bioneurologically hardwired. That's a rational and empirical fact of human cognition.

What you do with that is up to you.

False. I have never asserted any such thing without qualification. What I have asserted, objectively, and rightly so, is that the incontrovertible axiom that God exits is bioneurologically hardwired. That's a rational and empirical fact of human cognition.

no, it is not bioneurologically anything, you simply do not understand the Almighty ... to bad for you.

.

The axiom is hardwired, at the very least, bioneurologically, as the fundamental laws of thought are universal. One can objectively and justifiably assert that. To assert the existence of an immaterial soul, however, would bias the matter. Nevertheless, this assertion in no way, shape or form necessarily precludes that the laws of thought persist above the level of the material realm of being.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

... until we can go there


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

however the facts are there is not the ability for inhabitants of our planet to explore the universe and will die doing so without artificial means, there is no atmosphere to sustain life between heavenly bodies.

well, what exists in our minds today is not the same as during Antiquity when humanity believed travel through space was as an Eagle flying to the moon.

there simply is not a relevant connection between what is in the minds of humanity and the reality humanity perceives and the actual cosmological order as it exists. without scientific verification.


- what Rawlings claims to be * Hardwired * from his TAG's deity into the mind of humanity is nothing more than a futile exercise of speculative comedy.

Sire, can we have a clarification on how your TAG's " Creator " has hardwired the minds of mankind ...

.

OK so given
The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

so does the idea that God does NOT exist,
this idea exists in our minds

and "there is not a relevant connection" without scientific verification

Foxfyre is right. Your statements should apply back to you equally if they are TRUE.

And this is consistent with GT and Godel, PercySunshine and Boss
that we can neither prove nor disprove God who represents something infinite
beyond the scope of man's finite minds and science

Very good!

Breezewood do you apply the same concepts about "things existing in our minds"
to yourself as you do to other people's concepts?

Breezewood if they don't apply to you, and you are the exception,
then your statement is not universal but is faulty, if it only applies to other people's ideas not yours.

Is it true or not?

Breezewood do you apply the same concepts about "things existing in our minds" to yourself as you do to other people's concepts?

the idea of being Hardwired by a Deity is a claim made by M.D. Rawlings.


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

"exists in our minds" ...


concepts of the cosmological order during Antiquity was different than today's and did not distinguish between Earth as an oasis but as all heavenly bodies being the same - a presence of God the same as Earth, all as a Garden. the Creator of everything for Antiquity is a different concept than the ipresent day reality that only Earth is habitable, -

therefore a Hardwire (by God) for the concept of God the Creator is disproved by the inconsistency that evolved over time for what the Creation itself actually is and for christians that concept has become far more rigid and less yielding to their exogenous description.

I am agreeing with you, there is no Hardwire.

and not with you - a Hardwire exists for the belief in God by God contrary to an individuals personal disposition.

.

OK so we have already established that "belief in God" is hardwired

then is rejecting this also hardwired
INSISTING it is NOT existent?

Let us be clear. Are you suggesting that an inability to perceive the axiom as extrapolated by the laws of organic thought could be hardwired?

If so, the answer is generally no. That's not possible for any one of a sound, developmentally mature mind. The only exception would necessarily entail some kind of neurological abnormality. Hollie is either lying like some others or is thinking number 2: http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10039225/

Yes and no
1. I agree that the default is to be perfectly neutral and open to different ways
I think Boss expresses this, but admit we all favor our own views and are not going to be perfectly objective.
We can at least acknowledge our biases for and against, and quit knocking each other for own leanings

2. However, whether natural or unnatural, emotional or spiritually engrained
I DO FIND that people who are NONtheist are geared that way to be secular minded.

I equate it to being color blind vs. mixing reds and greens or seeing all colors.

Or how some animals like dogs can hear things that are beyond the range of human hearing.

My friend Olivia can receive messages from God that are more
direct than when I receive divine insights that come as vague ideas.

So our channels are designed differently.

Some people see physical visions, I have friends who can see demons.

Some people have no notion and are left in the dark about
what is this business of Jesus and talking with God. it makes
no sense to them because they don't have those spiritual experiences.
It seems unreal how that can be possible.

So in general MD it can go either way:
in some cases people being excessive anti-theist are
reacting against social conditioning and this is not natural
but reacting to equally unnatural abuses that have conditioned people to react that way.

That is one level and I hope that can change as we forgive and correct issues of abuse
tha tmake people turn against and reject God Jesus and religion.

in some cases however
people are naturally secular gentile

God creates some people to think in black and white
as a check on reality.

So when I get too emotional and empathize too much with others,
it helps me to consult with someone who is more neutral and objective
and get feedback from them to check myself.

we help each other this way

God designs some of us to be of this tribe or that one
to serve different purposes and reach different audiences.

All these ways still answer to the one authority of law
that Jesus represents as Justice for all.

but there are many branches from the same tree, to reach in all directions.

If we only had one trunk that tree would be almost useless.

We have all these branches for a reason.

And I find that the Secular Gentiles who look at the world
Nontheistically
serve a purpose as a check and balance on the other branch

I think you and Boss and others have an advantage
if we can relate to both branches.
so we should use our gifts wisely to coordinate
our spiritual gifts and not fight to ax off this branch or that one.

Sorry if it's not all one way.

There are some who are hardwired to see black and white nontheistically
and there are some who are conditioned by social karma to reject God and religion.

It depends on the person which factor or factors apply to them.

Boss sees the axiom with no sweat.

 

[BreezeWood]

This is the behavior of persons who are telling us they have no real regard for the dignity, the humanity, the rights of others. It's not accidental that most atheists tend to be statists.

you haven't just conducted yourself as you have made the accusation ... what Atheists are there you are talking about as perhaps only one comes to mind and no one that fits your description.

.

the idea of being Hardwired by a Deity is a claim made by M.D. Rawlings.


The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds!

"exists in our minds" ...

.

False. I have never asserted any such thing without qualification. What I have asserted, objectively, and rightly so, is that the incontrovertible axiom that God exits is bioneurologically hardwired. That's a rational and empirical fact of human cognition.

What you do with that is up to you.

False. I have never asserted any such thing without qualification. What I have asserted, objectively, and rightly so, is that the incontrovertible axiom that God exits is bioneurologically hardwired. That's a rational and empirical fact of human cognition.

no, it is not bioneurologically anything, you simply do not understand the Almighty ... to bad for you.

.

The axiom is hardwired, at the very least, bioneurologically, as the fundamental laws of thought are universal. One can objectively and justifiably assert that. To assert the existence of an immaterial soul, however, would bias the matter. Nevertheless, this assertion in no way, shape or form necessarily precludes that the laws of thought persist above the level of the material realm of being.

R: To assert the existence of an immaterial soul, however, would bias the matter.

so it is your physiology you will be Admitting to the Everlasting and leaving your Spirit behind -

good luck with that Rawlings.

.