Israel defends itself?

[Claudette]

The last reported death toll I saw of the Israeli assault on Gaza was about 650 Palestinians versus 20 something Israeli soldiers.

So, who's terrorizing whom?

Hopefully, at this point, it's the IDF terrorizing the people who built the tunnels specifically meant to transport weapons and military personnel into Israel to murder Israeli citizens.
Are you that fucking stupid?

You are.
Hamas built those tunnels to resist an illegal belligerent occupation by the fucking Jews.
Are you Jewish?

No. They built those tunnels to get their suicide bombers weapons and fighters into Isreal to blow up innocent women and kids. Don't hear you ranting about that little factoid.

Funny you think Isreal is the bad guy here when Hamas has been the bad guy all along. Hamas has has billions in aid going into that country and they sure as shit haven't used it to help the people. The people voted those dirtbags in so they get what they get.

Civilians die in war. They always have and always will. Get the fuck over it. Nothing you say will ever change that fact. Wars happen and people die. Period.

Wonder how many civilians died because of the bombs of the allies and axis bombers during WWII??

If Isreal surrendered tomorrow they would all be dead because the Muslims have vowed to remove them from the earth. Great guys those Muslims.

If the Muslims surrendered tomorrow there would be peace.

 

[bripat9643]

You are.

Hamas built those tunnels to resist an illegal belligerent occupation by the fucking Jews.

Are you Jewish?

Wrong, they were built to invade Israel and kill civilians

Israel has been violating international law for decades by imposing a belligerent occupation upon the people of Gaza. Hamas came into existence to remedy that crime; they have the right to resist Israel's occupation while Israel has no right to impose it. If Jews want their civilians safe from legitimate self defense operations on the part of Arabs, they are going to have to agree to share the land between the River and the sea; so far, Jews are making it clear they have no such intention.

Hamas has declared war on Israel. Therefore, Israel is entitled to send them all to see Allah. The occupation of the Sinai occurred only because Egypt attacked Israel. It continues in Gaza only because Egypt didn't want to take responsibility for the cockroaches inhabiting it.

 

[bripat9643]

Hopefully, at this point, it's the IDF terrorizing the people who built the tunnels specifically meant to transport weapons and military personnel into Israel to murder Israeli citizens.
Are you that fucking stupid?

Want to confirm that? Maybe it's a way to get food and other types of things you don't think about twice living here in Obama's kingdom.

".....over the last 14 years the draconian system of movement controls used by Israel in the occupied Palestinian territory has become increasingly institutionalized and restrictive. The permit system put in place in the early 1990s which requires that all Palestinians obtain military issued permits to move between the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem or to travel abroad is now complemented by a permanent system of roadblocks, gates, checkpoints, the Wall and other obstacles to movement in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza blockade.

Taken together all of these factors contribute to forced displacement, severely limit Palestinian access to basic resources including land and water and basic services including health care and education, and perpetuate a system of segregation and legal and structural inequality between Palestinians and Israelis."""

I'd be digging tunnels too, if someone was trying to starve me out.

Restricted Movement in the Occupied Palestinian Territory | American Friends Service Committee

Starvation is only one of many tools that Zionist employ to drive all non-Jews out of Greater Israel. Their leaders have never liked to publicize the Zionist dependence upon transfer, but it's always there to see for anyone who isn't afraid to look.

"Jewish immigration, colonization and labor were the primary means through which the Zionist movement sought to establish a state in Palestine. Since mass immigration alone would not be sufficient to establish a Jewish majority, and because most Palestinian Arab landowners were unwilling to part with their land, many leaders of the Zionist movement resorted to the idea of transferring the indigenous population out of the country."

Population Transfer and Political Zionism

"Zionism" is a word invented by antisemites to disguise bigotry.

 

[georgephillip]

Hopefully, at this point, it's the IDF terrorizing the people who built the tunnels specifically meant to transport weapons and military personnel into Israel to murder Israeli citizens.
Are you that fucking stupid?

You are.
Hamas built those tunnels to resist an illegal belligerent occupation by the fucking Jews.
Are you Jewish?

No. They built those tunnels to get their suicide bombers weapons and fighters into Isreal to blow up innocent women and kids. Don't hear you ranting about that little factoid.

Funny you think Isreal is the bad guy here when Hamas has been the bad guy all along. Hamas has has billions in aid going into that country and they sure as shit haven't used it to help the people. The people voted those dirtbags in so they get what they get.

Civilians die in war. They always have and always will. Get the fuck over it. Nothing you say will ever change that fact. Wars happen and people die. Period.

Wonder how many civilians died because of the bombs of the allies and axis bombers during WWII??

If Isreal surrendered tomorrow they would all be dead because the Muslims have vowed to remove them from the earth. Great guys those Muslims.

If the Muslims surrendered tomorrow there would be peace.

If Muslims surrendered tomorrow, they would reap the same reward they did in 1948:

"The 1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramle was the expulsion of 50,000–70,000 Palestinian Arabs when Israeli troops captured the towns in July that year. The military action occurred within the context of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

"The two Arab towns, lying outside the area designated for a Jewish state in the UN Partition Plan of 1947, and inside the area set aside for an Arab state in Palestine,[1][2] subsequently were transformed into predominantly Jewish areas in the new State of Israel, known as Lod and Ramla."

1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[georgephillip]

Want to confirm that? Maybe it's a way to get food and other types of things you don't think about twice living here in Obama's kingdom.

".....over the last 14 years the draconian system of movement controls used by Israel in the occupied Palestinian territory has become increasingly institutionalized and restrictive. The permit system put in place in the early 1990s which requires that all Palestinians obtain military issued permits to move between the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem or to travel abroad is now complemented by a permanent system of roadblocks, gates, checkpoints, the Wall and other obstacles to movement in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza blockade.

Taken together all of these factors contribute to forced displacement, severely limit Palestinian access to basic resources including land and water and basic services including health care and education, and perpetuate a system of segregation and legal and structural inequality between Palestinians and Israelis."""

I'd be digging tunnels too, if someone was trying to starve me out.

Restricted Movement in the Occupied Palestinian Territory | American Friends Service Committee

Starvation is only one of many tools that Zionist employ to drive all non-Jews out of Greater Israel. Their leaders have never liked to publicize the Zionist dependence upon transfer, but it's always there to see for anyone who isn't afraid to look.

"Jewish immigration, colonization and labor were the primary means through which the Zionist movement sought to establish a state in Palestine. Since mass immigration alone would not be sufficient to establish a Jewish majority, and because most Palestinian Arab landowners were unwilling to part with their land, many leaders of the Zionist movement resorted to the idea of transferring the indigenous population out of the country."

Population Transfer and Political Zionism

"Zionism" is a word invented by antisemites to disguise bigotry.

Why do you repeat the same ignorant lie?

"Zionism (Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת, translit. Tsiyonut) is the national movement of Jews and Jewish culture that supports the creation of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the Land of Israel."

Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[georgephillip]

Wrong, they were built to invade Israel and kill civilians

Israel has been violating international law for decades by imposing a belligerent occupation upon the people of Gaza. Hamas came into existence to remedy that crime; they have the right to resist Israel's occupation while Israel has no right to impose it. If Jews want their civilians safe from legitimate self defense operations on the part of Arabs, they are going to have to agree to share the land between the River and the sea; so far, Jews are making it clear they have no such intention.

Hamas has declared war on Israel. Therefore, Israel is entitled to send them all to see Allah. The occupation of the Sinai occurred only because Egypt attacked Israel. It continues in Gaza only because Egypt didn't want to take responsibility for the cockroaches inhabiting it.

Except Israel attacked Egypt before occupying the Sinai in '67.
Some Jews do such things to their neighbors.

 

[Claudette]

You are.
Hamas built those tunnels to resist an illegal belligerent occupation by the fucking Jews.
Are you Jewish?

No. They built those tunnels to get their suicide bombers weapons and fighters into Isreal to blow up innocent women and kids. Don't hear you ranting about that little factoid.

Funny you think Isreal is the bad guy here when Hamas has been the bad guy all along. Hamas has has billions in aid going into that country and they sure as shit haven't used it to help the people. The people voted those dirtbags in so they get what they get.

Civilians die in war. They always have and always will. Get the fuck over it. Nothing you say will ever change that fact. Wars happen and people die. Period.

Wonder how many civilians died because of the bombs of the allies and axis bombers during WWII??

If Isreal surrendered tomorrow they would all be dead because the Muslims have vowed to remove them from the earth. Great guys those Muslims.

If the Muslims surrendered tomorrow there would be peace.

If Muslims surrendered tomorrow, they would reap the same reward they did in 1948:

"The 1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramle was the expulsion of 50,000–70,000 Palestinian Arabs when Israeli troops captured the towns in July that year. The military action occurred within the context of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

"The two Arab towns, lying outside the area designated for a Jewish state in the UN Partition Plan of 1947, and inside the area set aside for an Arab state in Palestine,[1][2] subsequently were transformed into predominantly Jewish areas in the new State of Israel, known as Lod and Ramla."

1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I doubt that. Hell. How much land has Isreal given back that they won during wars??

If the Muslims all surrendered there would be peace because Isreal doesn't want what they have and unlike those Muslims don't fight wars over religion.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Israel has been violating international law for decades by imposing a belligerent occupation upon the people of Gaza. Hamas came into existence to remedy that crime; they have the right to resist Israel's occupation while Israel has no right to impose it. If Jews want their civilians safe from legitimate self defense operations on the part of Arabs, they are going to have to agree to share the land between the River and the sea; so far, Jews are making it clear they have no such intention.

Hamas has declared war on Israel. Therefore, Israel is entitled to send them all to see Allah. The occupation of the Sinai occurred only because Egypt attacked Israel. It continues in Gaza only because Egypt didn't want to take responsibility for the cockroaches inhabiting it.

Except Israel attacked Egypt before occupying the Sinai in '67.
Some Jews do such things to their neighbors.

But what about the Arab invasion of 1948 ?
What about the Crusades?
(and besides there is no question that Egypt, the PLO, and Syria attacked first in 1967. If you have to re-write history to make a point - your point isn't very good now is it?)

Bottom line is that Jews and Arabs have been fighting for centuries. Israel has a right to exist. Recognize that FIRST - then we can start to move toward peace. If you continue vowing to wipe Israel from the map and continue terrorist attacks, then you have no room to whine about civilian casualties. Terrorist attacks kill civilians too. It's wrong. But I'm not going to be moved by hearing the pot call the kettle black.

 

[Mustang]

The UN understands that Israel is not blameless, despite what American conservative Israel apologists would have everyone believe.

GENEVA (AP) -- The U.N.'s top human rights official has warned all sides in the two-week war in the Gaza Strip to not indiscriminately attack civilians, and that violations may amount to war crimes.

U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said Wednesday around three-quarters of those killed in the Gaza Strip were civilians and thousands more have been injured.

At least 657 Palestinians and 31 Israelis have been killed during the conflict. Among the Palestinian dead, Pillay said there were at least 147 children and 74 women.

Pillay noted an Israeli drone missile strike in Gaza City that killed three children and wounded two others while they were playing on the roof of their home. She also referenced an Israeli strike and naval shelling that struck seven children playing on Gaza beach, killing four from the same family.

"These are just a few examples where there seems to be a strong possibility that international humanitarian law has been violated, in a manner that could amount to war crimes," Pillay told the 47-nation U.N. Human Rights Council.

AOL.com Article - UN rights chief warns of possible war crimes

 

[Claudette]

Humanitarian law huh?

Gee not much said about all the Isreali's killed by Hamas and their rockets and suicide bombers. Guess that doesn't come under "humanitarian law."

 

[g5000]

Fuck Israel.

This is precisely why the Palestinians use children as human shields. So rubes like you will fall for this kind of shit.

 

[nodoginnafight]

The UN understands that Israel is not blameless, despite what American conservative Israel apologists would have everyone believe.

If you only support those who are blameless - then you'll support no one. Not even yourself. I've heard very few claim that Israel is blameless and 75% of Americans (which makes it a mathematical certainty that there are conservatives in that group) believe Israel has used too much force.

So please don't make unfounded generalizations a part of your argument. YES, Israel has the military capabilities to be more discriminate and because they can - they should.

But it isn't like their attackers are inviting them out to a cleared battlefield. In this age of asymmetrical warfare, civilian casualties happen. I don't see you posting links bemoaning the Israeli civilian casualties or calling out the terrorists for their killing of civilians.

Join me in denouncing ALL the atrocities and admitting that BOTH sides have been responsible. Then we can discuss who is "more" to blame.

 

[Mustang]

Humanitarian law huh?

Gee not much said about all the Isreali's killed by Hamas and their rockets and suicide bombers. Guess that doesn't come under "humanitarian law."

Claiming moral outrage when violence is directed at you while attempting to absolve yourself of moral responsibility when your own side engages in atrocities is a losing argument because it's easily recognized as hypocritical. You simply can't have it both ways no matter how you try to convince yourself that you can. If the violence directed at you is immoral when it kills civilians, the violence you direct at the other side is also immoral when it kills civilians on the other side. Likewise, any claim you make to protecting yourself and fighting for a just cause can be made by the other side as well.

It's this fact that makes conservatives' argument to being "principled" such a joke as far as I'm concerned simply because they're ALWAYS trying to play both sides of the moral outrage fence; on the one hand, they're outraged at the violence directed at Israel, and on the other hand, they're outraged when anyone dares to suggest that Israel might actually be in the wrong when they engage in military operations which end up killing large numbers of civilians, including innocent women and children. That kind of simplistic sophistry doesn't impress me in the least, and I don't buy it any more than a lot of other people who see it for exactly what it is: total BS.

 

[georgephillip]

Hamas has declared war on Israel. Therefore, Israel is entitled to send them all to see Allah. The occupation of the Sinai occurred only because Egypt attacked Israel. It continues in Gaza only because Egypt didn't want to take responsibility for the cockroaches inhabiting it.

Except Israel attacked Egypt before occupying the Sinai in '67.
Some Jews do such things to their neighbors.

But what about the Arab invasion of 1948 ?
What about the Crusades?
(and besides there is no question that Egypt, the PLO, and Syria attacked first in 1967. If you have to re-write history to make a point - your point isn't very good now is it?)

Bottom line is that Jews and Arabs have been fighting for centuries. Israel has a right to exist. Recognize that FIRST - then we can start to move toward peace. If you continue vowing to wipe Israel from the map and continue terrorist attacks, then you have no room to whine about civilian casualties. Terrorist attacks kill civilians too. It's wrong. But I'm not going to be moved by hearing the pot call the kettle black.

Arab states have repeatedly agreed on Israel's right to exist in its pre-67 borders.
Jews struck first in '67 as even their leaders have admitted.
Which is more than their leaders have done for the 34 Americans murdered by the Jews in international waters on June 8, 1967:

"On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. The USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died."

The US government buried the evidence of this deliberate assault, and that should make you wonder what else are they lying about when it involves Israel.

USS Liberty Memorial

 

[georgephillip]

No. They built those tunnels to get their suicide bombers weapons and fighters into Isreal to blow up innocent women and kids. Don't hear you ranting about that little factoid.

Funny you think Isreal is the bad guy here when Hamas has been the bad guy all along. Hamas has has billions in aid going into that country and they sure as shit haven't used it to help the people. The people voted those dirtbags in so they get what they get.

Civilians die in war. They always have and always will. Get the fuck over it. Nothing you say will ever change that fact. Wars happen and people die. Period.

Wonder how many civilians died because of the bombs of the allies and axis bombers during WWII??

If Isreal surrendered tomorrow they would all be dead because the Muslims have vowed to remove them from the earth. Great guys those Muslims.

If the Muslims surrendered tomorrow there would be peace.

If Muslims surrendered tomorrow, they would reap the same reward they did in 1948:

"The 1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramle was the expulsion of 50,000–70,000 Palestinian Arabs when Israeli troops captured the towns in July that year. The military action occurred within the context of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

"The two Arab towns, lying outside the area designated for a Jewish state in the UN Partition Plan of 1947, and inside the area set aside for an Arab state in Palestine,[1][2] subsequently were transformed into predominantly Jewish areas in the new State of Israel, known as Lod and Ramla."

1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I doubt that. Hell. How much land has Isreal given back that they won during wars??

If the Muslims all surrendered there would be peace because Isreal doesn't want what they have and unlike those Muslims don't fight wars over religion.

Israel has never wanted peace; it wants all the land between the River and the sea for Jews ONLY. How much more proof of that do you require?

 

[sealybobo]

The Jew haters are a joke already. Israel should just kill or imprission everyone in Hamas and do the Palestinians and the world a favor.

That is basically what Israel has been doing the last how many decades? So the only thing they can do really is either change their ineffective tactics/behavior or speed up the killing.

Seems belief in god does not make people good humans.

 

[sealybobo]

Humanitarian law huh?

Gee not much said about all the Isreali's killed by Hamas and their rockets and suicide bombers. Guess that doesn't come under "humanitarian law."

Claiming moral outrage when violence is directed at you while attempting to absolve yourself of moral responsibility when your own side engages in atrocities is a losing argument because it's easily recognized as hypocritical. You simply can't have it both ways no matter how you try to convince yourself that you can. If the violence directed at you is immoral when it kills civilians, the violence you direct at the other side is also immoral when it kills civilians on the other side. Likewise, any claim you make to protecting yourself and fighting for a just cause can be made by the other side as well.

It's this fact that makes conservatives' argument to being "principled" such a joke as far as I'm concerned simply because they're ALWAYS trying to play both sides of the moral outrage fence; on the one hand, they're outraged at the violence directed at Israel, and on the other hand, they're outraged when anyone dares to suggest that Israel might actually be in the wrong when they engage in military operations which end up killing large numbers of civilians, including innocent women and children. That kind of simplistic sophistry doesn't impress me in the least, and I don't buy it any more than a lot of other people who see it for exactly what it is: total BS.

And Israel pretends/lies when it says it goes to great length to avoid civilian casualties. Just look at how many civilians they kill. Then they cry that the arabs are using civilians as human shields.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Except Israel attacked Egypt before occupying the Sinai in '67.
Some Jews do such things to their neighbors.

But what about the Arab invasion of 1948 ?
What about the Crusades?
(and besides there is no question that Egypt, the PLO, and Syria attacked first in 1967. If you have to re-write history to make a point - your point isn't very good now is it?)

Bottom line is that Jews and Arabs have been fighting for centuries. Israel has a right to exist. Recognize that FIRST - then we can start to move toward peace. If you continue vowing to wipe Israel from the map and continue terrorist attacks, then you have no room to whine about civilian casualties. Terrorist attacks kill civilians too. It's wrong. But I'm not going to be moved by hearing the pot call the kettle black.

Arab states have repeatedly agreed on Israel's right to exist in its pre-67 borders.
Jews struck first in '67 as even their leaders have admitted.
Which is more than their leaders have done for the 34 Americans murdered by the Jews in international waters on June 8, 1967:

"On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. The USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died."

The US government buried the evidence of this deliberate assault, and that should make you wonder what else are they lying about when it involves Israel.

USS Liberty Memorial

Can you please provide documentation of:
1) All Arabs agreeing to Israel's right to exist
2) Jews struck first in 1967

 

[nodoginnafight]

Humanitarian law huh?

Gee not much said about all the Isreali's killed by Hamas and their rockets and suicide bombers. Guess that doesn't come under "humanitarian law."

Claiming moral outrage when violence is directed at you while attempting to absolve yourself of moral responsibility when your own side engages in atrocities is a losing argument because it's easily recognized as hypocritical. You simply can't have it both ways no matter how you try to convince yourself that you can. If the violence directed at you is immoral when it kills civilians, the violence you direct at the other side is also immoral when it kills civilians on the other side. Likewise, any claim you make to protecting yourself and fighting for a just cause can be made by the other side as well.

It's this fact that makes conservatives' argument to being "principled" such a joke as far as I'm concerned simply because they're ALWAYS trying to play both sides of the moral outrage fence; on the one hand, they're outraged at the violence directed at Israel, and on the other hand, they're outraged when anyone dares to suggest that Israel might actually be in the wrong when they engage in military operations which end up killing large numbers of civilians, including innocent women and children. That kind of simplistic sophistry doesn't impress me in the least, and I don't buy it any more than a lot of other people who see it for exactly what it is: total BS.

And Israel pretends/lies when it says it goes to great length to avoid civilian casualties. Just look at how many civilians they kill. Then they cry that the arabs are using civilians as human shields.

Agreed. Israel is not doing enough to avoid civilian casualties.

Are the Arabs?

 

[The Rabbi]

Claiming moral outrage when violence is directed at you while attempting to absolve yourself of moral responsibility when your own side engages in atrocities is a losing argument because it's easily recognized as hypocritical. You simply can't have it both ways no matter how you try to convince yourself that you can. If the violence directed at you is immoral when it kills civilians, the violence you direct at the other side is also immoral when it kills civilians on the other side. Likewise, any claim you make to protecting yourself and fighting for a just cause can be made by the other side as well.

It's this fact that makes conservatives' argument to being "principled" such a joke as far as I'm concerned simply because they're ALWAYS trying to play both sides of the moral outrage fence; on the one hand, they're outraged at the violence directed at Israel, and on the other hand, they're outraged when anyone dares to suggest that Israel might actually be in the wrong when they engage in military operations which end up killing large numbers of civilians, including innocent women and children. That kind of simplistic sophistry doesn't impress me in the least, and I don't buy it any more than a lot of other people who see it for exactly what it is: total BS.

And Israel pretends/lies when it says it goes to great length to avoid civilian casualties. Just look at how many civilians they kill. Then they cry that the arabs are using civilians as human shields.

Agreed. Israel is not doing enough to avoid civilian casualties.

Are the Arabs?

What should the Israelis be doing instead to avoid civilian casualties?