Israel does not exist

[Sixties Fan]

No, because they consider it an occupation.

Strangely enough you are BOTH wrong!

The Arabs and Muslims I have spoken to, in their own Arab/Muslim countries, don't actually have an issue with Israel existing. That is fact! Whether it is governed by Jews or Muslims. The fact that Israel exists, from my personal experience, is not the issue here!

Not ONE Arab/Muslim I have met has considered Israel as an "occupation" either!

If you believe wither of those two 'ideas' then you really have no experience of Israel/Jews or Arab/Muslims!

You have this extremely low level understanding of the situation and, sorry to say, neither of you are right!

I do not understand where you got the idea that if Israel is governed by Jews or Arabs/Muslims it is ok with the Muslim world.

Could you tell me what Muslims you have been speaking to?
Are they part of any of the Muslim governments? Have any one of them said that it is ok, after the wars of 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 and all the wars started from Gaza or Lebanon, that any one of these involved in trying to destroy Israel are going to be ok if Israel continues to exist?

Where did you get the idea that I have no experience of Israel/Jews or Arab/Muslims?

What is the experience you are coming from, exactly?

Have you met anyone in Gaza or Ramallah?
They are not telling you that Israel is occupying "their" land?

So, what are all of those videos, and news fromAl Jazeera, BBC, NYT, etc, calling Judea and Samaria and "East Jerusalem" as occupied Palestinian territories?

I think that Humanity exists in a fanstasy world where arabs do not have a problem with jews in the region. Strangely enough on this very thread we hear the opposite. Jews are clearly called occupiers and have no rights and never will.

Correct, Israel DOES occupy territory that is not theirs!

However, Israel, as a country, does exist and has as much right to exist as the US or any other country in the world. The Jews have every right to live peacefully in Israel!

The Jews have every right to live peacefully in Israel!

OK, but that is not an exclusive right. Nobody has the right to violate the rights of others. Nobody has the right to expel citizens and steal their land. Nobody has the right to impose a government, at the force of arms, on a people in the opposition of the vast majority of the people. Nobody has the right to brutally rule over a people who have no say in the government that rules them.

Religion is irrelevant.

Extra ! Extra ! Reporting directly from the Middle East we have our most important and most experienced Journalist, in Muslim, Jewish, and everything else that happens over there - issues.

Everything he says should be believed in because he has lived in the Middle East, especially in Israel, where he reports the most amazing stories we will ever hear about.

He has been there from the beginning, since 1920, and has witness the absolutely brutal
behavior of the Jews on the Arab indigenous people of the area.
Before and after 1948. With each and every war the Jews started, our reporter has witness the ethnic cleansing of thousands and thousands of the rightful owners of the land by this savages who now call themselves Israelis.

This "Israelis" do not fool anyone with their evacuation of Gaza in 2005.
This "Israelis" do not fool anyone by saying that they are the ones who are the indigenous people of the land.
This "Israelis" are not the people the Muslims had under rule for 1300 years. ONLY the people who were under the rule of the Muslims are the ones with the right to remain in Palestine.
This "Israelis" say that they Muslims who live in Israel have the right to vote, and be a part in the government, but our expert journalist has uncovered the vile secret that there is not one none Jew in the Knesset, or in any important role in government or anywhere else in the country.

There is only one thing our expert Journalist, winner of so many awards in excellence in Journalism, could conclude about Israel and this so called Jews, which the world agrees with:

ISRAEL IS AN APARTHEID COUNTRY, where the government behaves exactly as the Europeans did in South Africa.
They must be boycotted, they must be made to change their ways, and put a stop to the brutal behavior against the indigenous Arab, Druze and Beduin people of Palestine.

Congratulations to our illustrious Journalist for his indefatigable work, which must never stop, not until Israel changes its ways and joins all the other civilized countries of the world.


Our sincere thanks, and continue the good job.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Strangely enough you are BOTH wrong!

The Arabs and Muslims I have spoken to, in their own Arab/Muslim countries, don't actually have an issue with Israel existing. That is fact! Whether it is governed by Jews or Muslims. The fact that Israel exists, from my personal experience, is not the issue here!

Not ONE Arab/Muslim I have met has considered Israel as an "occupation" either!

If you believe wither of those two 'ideas' then you really have no experience of Israel/Jews or Arab/Muslims!

You have this extremely low level understanding of the situation and, sorry to say, neither of you are right!

I do not understand where you got the idea that if Israel is governed by Jews or Arabs/Muslims it is ok with the Muslim world.

Could you tell me what Muslims you have been speaking to?
Are they part of any of the Muslim governments? Have any one of them said that it is ok, after the wars of 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 and all the wars started from Gaza or Lebanon, that any one of these involved in trying to destroy Israel are going to be ok if Israel continues to exist?

Where did you get the idea that I have no experience of Israel/Jews or Arab/Muslims?

What is the experience you are coming from, exactly?

Have you met anyone in Gaza or Ramallah?
They are not telling you that Israel is occupying "their" land?

So, what are all of those videos, and news fromAl Jazeera, BBC, NYT, etc, calling Judea and Samaria and "East Jerusalem" as occupied Palestinian territories?

I think that Humanity exists in a fanstasy world where arabs do not have a problem with jews in the region. Strangely enough on this very thread we hear the opposite. Jews are clearly called occupiers and have no rights and never will.

Correct, Israel DOES occupy territory that is not theirs!

However, Israel, as a country, does exist and has as much right to exist as the US or any other country in the world. The Jews have every right to live peacefully in Israel!

Exactly what territory, belonging to other people before it became Israel, does it occupy?
Name the areas specifically. And name the people it belonged to.

Golan Heights
Syria

Next?

Syria lost the Golan Heights in a war. It is a disputed territory.
A territory where the Syrians could easily attack and murder Jews at will .

That is a piece of land which will never go back to Syria, because Syria is not at peace with Israel, because if given back to murderous Muslims, they would be at the top of it
doing target practice on Jews again.

Smart live Jews, are better then dumb dead ones.

 

[teddyearp]

What about the 40 years of occupation before there was a Hamas?

What about the 20 years of Egyptian and Jordanian occupation?

 

[Humanity]

I do not understand where you got the idea that if Israel is governed by Jews or Arabs/Muslims it is ok with the Muslim world.

Could you tell me what Muslims you have been speaking to?
Are they part of any of the Muslim governments? Have any one of them said that it is ok, after the wars of 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 and all the wars started from Gaza or Lebanon, that any one of these involved in trying to destroy Israel are going to be ok if Israel continues to exist?

Where did you get the idea that I have no experience of Israel/Jews or Arab/Muslims?

What is the experience you are coming from, exactly?

Have you met anyone in Gaza or Ramallah?
They are not telling you that Israel is occupying "their" land?

So, what are all of those videos, and news fromAl Jazeera, BBC, NYT, etc, calling Judea and Samaria and "East Jerusalem" as occupied Palestinian territories?

I think that Humanity exists in a fanstasy world where arabs do not have a problem with jews in the region. Strangely enough on this very thread we hear the opposite. Jews are clearly called occupiers and have no rights and never will.

Correct, Israel DOES occupy territory that is not theirs!

However, Israel, as a country, does exist and has as much right to exist as the US or any other country in the world. The Jews have every right to live peacefully in Israel!

Exactly what territory, belonging to other people before it became Israel, does it occupy?
Name the areas specifically. And name the people it belonged to.

Golan Heights
Syria

Next?

Syria lost the Golan Heights in a war. It is a disputed territory.
A territory where the Syrians could easily attack and murder Jews at will .

That is a piece of land which will never go back to Syria, because Syria is not at peace with Israel, because if given back to murderous Muslims, they would be at the top of it
doing target practice on Jews again.

Smart live Jews, are better then dumb dead ones.

Interesting use of the word "disputed" when you know that it really is "occupied"...

The whys and wherefores are a completely different matter.

 

[Sixties Fan]

I think that Humanity exists in a fanstasy world where arabs do not have a problem with jews in the region. Strangely enough on this very thread we hear the opposite. Jews are clearly called occupiers and have no rights and never will.

Correct, Israel DOES occupy territory that is not theirs!

However, Israel, as a country, does exist and has as much right to exist as the US or any other country in the world. The Jews have every right to live peacefully in Israel!

Exactly what territory, belonging to other people before it became Israel, does it occupy?
Name the areas specifically. And name the people it belonged to.

Golan Heights
Syria

Next?

Syria lost the Golan Heights in a war. It is a disputed territory.
A territory where the Syrians could easily attack and murder Jews at will .

That is a piece of land which will never go back to Syria, because Syria is not at peace with Israel, because if given back to murderous Muslims, they would be at the top of it
doing target practice on Jews again.

Smart live Jews, are better then dumb dead ones.

Interesting use of the word "disputed" when you know that it really is "occupied"...

The whys and wherefores are a completely different matter.

It is not occupied. It belongs to Israel. Israel is never returning it.

Whys and wherefores are the matter.

Jews have the right to live safely in Israel. Syrians would not want to see Jews and non Jews in Israel safe.

Safety comes first.

And you do not care that the Hashemites occupied Gaza and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem (why that Quarter? ) and all of Judea and Samaria for 19 years, or do you?
The Muslims consider the Israelis taking back their own land, "Occupation" and continue to attack the Jews to ethnically cleanse the area of Jews AGAIN.

Whys and wherefores do matter very much to people who want to stay alive and free.

 

[Humanity]

It is not occupied. It belongs to Israel. Israel is never returning it.

It IS occupied... Your denial won't change facts.

You stating that "Israel is never returning it"... Suggests that you know the truth.

 

[Sixties Fan]

It is not occupied. It belongs to Israel. Israel is never returning it.

It IS occupied... Your denial won't change facts.

You stating that "Israel is never returning it"... Suggests that you know the truth.

What I know is that Syria is at war with Israel, like most Muslim countries are.
What I know is that Syria is very unstable right now, with a civil war of its own.
What I know is that many Syrian rockets have already found their way to Israel, or purpose or accidentally.
What I know is that there is no Peace treaty between Israel and Syria.
What I know is that lives are at risk in Israel, all of them, not only Jews, from Syria's civil war.
What I know, is if Israel were to even think of giving the Golan Heights to Syria, as it is in the middle and depth of a civil war - all anti Israel groups would take advantage of it and sniper kill as many Jews as they could and set up an attack on Israel from that Hill.

I know the truth that Syria was one of the Arab countries which CHOSE to attack Israel not only in 1948, but in 1967 as well.

Syria made the bad choice, just as Jordan made the bad choice. There is no going back to what it was.
There is no going back to being easy targets against Jordanians or Syrians.
It is enough that they continue to educate their generations to hate Jews and murder as many as they can.

Israel is NOT a suicidal nation, you understand this or not.

 

[Humanity]

It is not occupied. It belongs to Israel. Israel is never returning it.

It IS occupied... Your denial won't change facts.

You stating that "Israel is never returning it"... Suggests that you know the truth.

What I know is that Syria is at war with Israel, like most Muslim countries are.
What I know is that Syria is very unstable right now, with a civil war of its own.
What I know is that many Syrian rockets have already found their way to Israel, or purpose or accidentally.
What I know is that there is no Peace treaty between Israel and Syria.
What I know is that lives are at risk in Israel, all of them, not only Jews, from Syria's civil war.
What I know, is if Israel were to even think of giving the Golan Heights to Syria, as it is in the middle and depth of a civil war - all anti Israel groups would take advantage of it and sniper kill as many Jews as they could and set up an attack on Israel from that Hill.

I know the truth that Syria was one of the Arab countries which CHOSE to attack Israel not only in 1948, but in 1967 as well.

Syria made the bad choice, just as Jordan made the bad choice. There is no going back to what it was.
There is no going back to being easy targets against Jordanians or Syrians.
It is enough that they continue to educate their generations to hate Jews and murder as many as they can.

Israel is NOT a suicidal nation, you understand this or not.

So you DO accept that it is occupied territory then...

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Sixties Fan]

It is not occupied. It belongs to Israel. Israel is never returning it.

It IS occupied... Your denial won't change facts.

You stating that "Israel is never returning it"... Suggests that you know the truth.

What I know is that Syria is at war with Israel, like most Muslim countries are.
What I know is that Syria is very unstable right now, with a civil war of its own.
What I know is that many Syrian rockets have already found their way to Israel, or purpose or accidentally.
What I know is that there is no Peace treaty between Israel and Syria.
What I know is that lives are at risk in Israel, all of them, not only Jews, from Syria's civil war.
What I know, is if Israel were to even think of giving the Golan Heights to Syria, as it is in the middle and depth of a civil war - all anti Israel groups would take advantage of it and sniper kill as many Jews as they could and set up an attack on Israel from that Hill.

I know the truth that Syria was one of the Arab countries which CHOSE to attack Israel not only in 1948, but in 1967 as well.

Syria made the bad choice, just as Jordan made the bad choice. There is no going back to what it was.
There is no going back to being easy targets against Jordanians or Syrians.
It is enough that they continue to educate their generations to hate Jews and murder as many as they can.

Israel is NOT a suicidal nation, you understand this or not.

So you DO accept that it is occupied territory then...

Thanks for the clarification.

No, Humanity, it can be described as Disputed territory, but it is not occupied.
The only way to deal with the dispute is see that Syria does what Egypt and Jordan did.
Negotiate for peace. Israel ended up returning the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt because of negotiations.

Israel is not obligated to simply return any land won in a war it did not start and which would mean that the enemy would go back to killing all below the Golan Heights as it wished.

You are not clear as to what means what in this conflict.

This is not Tibet and China, or Western Sahara and Morocco, or Northern Cyprus and Turkey.

The Syrians declared war on Israel for the second time in 1967. They lost the Golan Heights where they had snipers hitting Israelis from above.

Let me repeat it again and make myself very clear.

Israelis are not SUICIDAL .

 

[Shusha]

Humanity, would agree that the Golan Heights is the only territory not belonging to Israel which Israel occupies?

 

[Shusha]

Sixties Fan,

Legally, the Golan Heights is occupied territory, because it is clearly under the sovereignty of another State by treaty. That said, I think Israel occupies Golan Heights legitimately and that returning it at this point is such a strong security threat, that Israel is justified in continuing to maintain an occupation there.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Here are the facts on how Golan Heights became part of Israel:

On June 9, 1967, Israel moved against Syrian forces on the Golan. By late afternoon, June 10, Israel was in complete control of the plateau. Israel's seizure of the strategic heights occurred only after 19 years of provocation from Syria, and after unsuccessful efforts to get the international community to act against the aggressors.

Six years later, in a surprise attack on Yom Kippur, the Syrians overran the Golan Heights before being repulsed by Israeli counterattacks. After the war, Syria signed a disengagement agreement that left the Golanin Israel's hands. Israel returned the city of Kuneitra to Syria, and a UN-patrolled buffer zone was created between the two armies.

On December 14, 1981, the Knesset voted to annex the Golan Heights. The statute extended Israeli civilian law and administration to the residents of the Golan, replacing the military authority that had ruled the area since 1967.


The Golan Heights

Question: Didn't Jordan disengage from the areas it took from 1948 to 1967?
It has no more say on any of those areas it took in 1948.

How is Israel occupying the Golan Heights if Syria signed an agreement giving it up after it attacked Israel in 1973?

 

[fanger]

Humanity, would agree that the Golan Heights is the only territory not belonging to Israel which Israel occupies?

Apart from Jerusalem
The Four Quarters of the Old City1- Jewish Quarter 2- Muslim Quarter 3- Armenian Quarter 4- Christian Quarter

 

[Sixties Fan]

This is what it meant when Israel disengaged from Gaza:

Israeli disengagement from Gaza - Wikipedia

 

[fanger]

This is what it meant when Israel disengaged from Gaza:

Israeli disengagement from Gaza - Wikipedia

israel still controls the borders, airspace and maritime approaches

 

[Indeependent]

This is what it meant when Israel disengaged from Gaza:

Israeli disengagement from Gaza - Wikipedia

israel still controls the borders, airspace and maritime approaches

Damn impressive!

 

[Shusha]

Question: Didn't Jordan disengage from the areas it took from 1948 to 1967?
It has no more say on any of those areas it took in 1948.

How is Israel occupying the Golan Heights if Syria signed an agreement giving it up after it attacked Israel in 1973?

Article 8: This agreement is not a peace agreement. It is a step toward a just and durable peace on the basis of Security Council Resolution 338 dated October 22, 1973.

Syria did not cede any of the territory. Therefore the original border still stands. (As opposed to a peace treaty such as with Jordan where she withdrew any claims to the territory).

I would agree with you that it is more properly labelled "annexed" than "occupied", though.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Question: Didn't Jordan disengage from the areas it took from 1948 to 1967?
It has no more say on any of those areas it took in 1948.

How is Israel occupying the Golan Heights if Syria signed an agreement giving it up after it attacked Israel in 1973?

Article 8: This agreement is not a peace agreement. It is a step toward a just and durable peace on the basis of Security Council Resolution 338 dated October 22, 1973.

Syria did not cede any of the territory. Therefore the original border still stands. (As opposed to a peace treaty such as with Jordan where she withdrew any claims to the territory).

I would agree with you that it is more properly labelled "annexed" than "occupied", though.

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

 

[Shusha]

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

Generally. There are exceptions.

 

[Humanity]

It is not occupied. It belongs to Israel. Israel is never returning it.

It IS occupied... Your denial won't change facts.

You stating that "Israel is never returning it"... Suggests that you know the truth.

What I know is that Syria is at war with Israel, like most Muslim countries are.
What I know is that Syria is very unstable right now, with a civil war of its own.
What I know is that many Syrian rockets have already found their way to Israel, or purpose or accidentally.
What I know is that there is no Peace treaty between Israel and Syria.
What I know is that lives are at risk in Israel, all of them, not only Jews, from Syria's civil war.
What I know, is if Israel were to even think of giving the Golan Heights to Syria, as it is in the middle and depth of a civil war - all anti Israel groups would take advantage of it and sniper kill as many Jews as they could and set up an attack on Israel from that Hill.

I know the truth that Syria was one of the Arab countries which CHOSE to attack Israel not only in 1948, but in 1967 as well.

Syria made the bad choice, just as Jordan made the bad choice. There is no going back to what it was.
There is no going back to being easy targets against Jordanians or Syrians.
It is enough that they continue to educate their generations to hate Jews and murder as many as they can.

Israel is NOT a suicidal nation, you understand this or not.

So you DO accept that it is occupied territory then...

Thanks for the clarification.

No, Humanity, it can be described as Disputed territory, but it is not occupied.
The only way to deal with the dispute is see that Syria does what Egypt and Jordan did.
Negotiate for peace. Israel ended up returning the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt because of negotiations.

Israel is not obligated to simply return any land won in a war it did not start and which would mean that the enemy would go back to killing all below the Golan Heights as it wished.

You are not clear as to what means what in this conflict.

This is not Tibet and China, or Western Sahara and Morocco, or Northern Cyprus and Turkey.

The Syrians declared war on Israel for the second time in 1967. They lost the Golan Heights where they had snipers hitting Israelis from above.

Let me repeat it again and make myself very clear.

Israelis are not SUICIDAL .

No SF... It is described as "disputed territory" ONLY by Israel and Israel supporters... That is a fact!

How is it NOT not Tibet and China, or Western Sahara and Morocco, or Northern Cyprus and Turkey?

The legalities of taking territory through conflict is better left for those who want to argue the legal jargon.

Annexation however, is NOT a right that Israel has! Unless you are Israel or an Israel supporter.