Israel orders partial demolition of Palestinian school

[Billo_Really]

So answer the question.

I did.

If they're the direct ancestors of the Israelites, that means they never left.

 

[Osomir]

So how do any of your claims make Palestine an indigenous Arab homeland?

There have been hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Palestine for more than 130 years.

There are a lot of Muslims in Spain, that doesn't make Spain an Arab homeland.

The indigenous population in the region became Arab so it became an Arab homeland. Same is true for say the Egyptians. They didn't always used to be Arab, and just because they are now doesn't mean that they came straight from the Arabian Peninsula or that they don't identify with pre-Arab Egyptian history.

 

[Hoffstra]

If Arabs live in a land for 5 centuries, those Arabs become native to the land.

 

[Osomir]

If Arabs live in a land for 5 centuries, those Arabs become native to the land.

They've lived there even longer than that too. Their ancestors weren't always Arab.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

So answer the question.

I did.

If they're the direct ancestors of the Israelites, that means they never left.

But they aren't.

 

[proudveteran06]

OMG! Isn't it just awful? Do you think maybe NOW might be a good time for the Palestinian terrorists to stop their missile attacks on Israel, end their vow to annihilate Israel & work with Israel for peace?

They already have; Israel won't reciprocate.

The Palestinians have made steps to work with Israel towards Peace? Tell us what they are, please. Pro Palestinians never answer because the answer is " Nothing"

 

[Osomir]

So answer the question.

I did.

If they're the direct ancestors of the Israelites, that means they never left.

But they aren't.

interesting how you haven't been able to counter any of my posts.

 

[Hossfly]

Most Palestinians are squatters on Israel's land since antiquity. And not a single Arab country will grant their Palestinians a right of return back to their indigenous homelands. Why is that?

This is quite a historically inaccurate statement. If you want to support Israel, that is fine, but there is no need to be intellectually dishonest about things when doing so.

Palestine is an indigenous Arab homeland.

Maybe you were taught that in your madrassa, but people who traveled through the area so many years ago (besides Mark Twain) wrote that they saw very few Arabs, mostly Bedouins. Meanwhile, of course, years later Winston Churchill and the British officials in the area reported that the Arabs arrived in droves from their impoverished countries when the Jews had jobs for them. It is the same reason you see your fellow Arabs and other Muslims arriving in great numbers from their poor countries into Europe and why we see the Hispanics crossing our southern border. Maybe you think that Egypt is also an indigenous Arab country when the early Christians happened to be there way before the Arabs left the Saudi Peninsula and started invading the surrounding countries. In fact, the early Christians were there before Islam was even invented and they can't even practice their religious beliefs in peace to this day.
History of Jihad against the Egyptian Coptic Christians (640)

 

[Hossfly]

I did.

If they're the direct ancestors of the Israelites, that means they never left.

But they aren't.

interesting how you haven't been able to counter any of my posts.

Ah, but he has. You're talkin' when you should be listening.

 

[Hossfly]

Arab ethnicity is one that spans multiple peoples who did not originate in the Arabian Peninsula. Just because someone is an Arab doesn't mean their genetic heritage is from Saudi Arabia, that's not how it works.

So how do any of your claims make Palestine an indigenous Arab homeland?

There have been hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Palestine for more than 130 years.

I think I would rather believe Winston Churchill and the British Officials in the area who said that the Arabs came in droves from their poor surrounding countries when the Jews had jobs for them. I am sure that Hoffstra, even though she appears very young, has seen quite a change in the population right on Long Island. How many languages do you hear spoken there now, Hoffstra? I am sure it is much different than when you were a little kid. I hope that Hoffstra is taking some language courses in Spanish and Chinese so she can speak to some of her fellow Long Islanders. Hmm, I wonder how difficult Tagalong would be for her.

 

[Hoffstra]

So how do any of your claims make Palestine an indigenous Arab homeland?

There have been hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Palestine for more than 130 years.

I think I would rather believe Winston Churchill and the British Officials in the area who said that the Arabs came in droves from their poor surrounding countries when the Jews had jobs for them. I am sure that Hoffstra, even though she appears very young, has seen quite a change in the population right on Long Island. How many languages do you hear spoken there now, Hoffstra? I am sure it is much different than when you were a little kid. I hope that Hoffstra is taking some language courses in Spanish and Chinese so she can speak to some of her fellow Long Islanders. Hmm, I wonder how difficult Tagalong would be for her.

Official British studies and records of the time say that the Palestinians were mostly not migrants since 1922. There numbers were mostly due to natural increase.

Palestinians in Israel grew from 200,000 to 1.3 million in 64 years. Its insane to think this rate of increase didn't exist before 1949 in Palestine.

 

[Osomir]

Maybe you were taught that in your madrassa, but people who traveled through the area so many years ago (besides Mark Twain) wrote that they saw very few Arabs, mostly Bedouins.

In the Negev perhaps, and even further south in the Sinai, but not in all of Palestine. They have long had a robust Arab population. The entire Levantine region has.

Meanwhile, of course, years later Winston Churchill and the British officials in the area reported that the Arabs arrived in droves from their impoverished countries when the Jews had jobs for them.

Then how could TE Lawrence have used these non-existent Arabs to fight the Ottomans in WWI?

Maybe you think that Egypt is also an indigenous Arab country when the early Christians happened to be there way before the Arabs left the Saudi Peninsula and started invading the surrounding countries.

Arabs can be and are Christians as well. Don't confuse ethnicity with religion.

And you simply prove my point with this comment. Egyptians weren't always Arabized, they became Arabs, that doesn't mean that the native population was displace by Arabs from Saudi Arabia and the Arabian Peninsula, it means that they ethnically converted. The Arabs that live there now are descendants not necessarily of Arabs from the Peninsula (though I am sure some are), but of Egyptians. "Arab" was a language and to some extent a culture that was spread and co-opted local populations who then themselves became Arab. That is true for places like Egypt, and also true for Palestine, and other Levantine Arab groups like Syrians.

 

[Osomir]

Ah, but he has. You're talkin' when you should be listening.

Says the guy who confuses religion with ethnicity

 

[Hossfly]

Maybe you were taught that in your madrassa, but people who traveled through the area so many years ago (besides Mark Twain) wrote that they saw very few Arabs, mostly Bedouins.

In the Negev perhaps, and even further south in the Sinai, but not in all of Palestine. They have long had a robust Arab population. The entire Levantine region has.

Meanwhile, of course, years later Winston Churchill and the British officials in the area reported that the Arabs arrived in droves from their impoverished countries when the Jews had jobs for them.

Then how could TE Lawrence have used these non-existent Arabs to fight the Ottomans in WWI?

Maybe you think that Egypt is also an indigenous Arab country when the early Christians happened to be there way before the Arabs left the Saudi Peninsula and started invading the surrounding countries.

Arabs can be and are Christians as well. Don't confuse ethnicity with religion.

And you simply prove my point with this comment. Egyptians weren't always Arabized, they became Arabs, that doesn't mean that the native population was displace by Arabs from Saudi Arabia and the Arabian Peninsula, it means that they ethnically converted. The Arabs that live there now are descendants not necessarily of Arabs from the Peninsula (though I am sure some are), but of Egyptians. "Arab" was a language and to some extent a culture that was spread and co-opted local populations who ten themselves became Arab. That is true for places like Egypt, and also true for Palestine, and other Levantine Arab groups like Syrians.

Hmm, how did the Christian Copts become Arabs? Maybe you should ask some Christian Copts from Egypt who are now living in America if they consider themselves Arabs. By the way, when you ask many, many people from Iran where they are from, they always say Persia and don't consider themselves as Arabs. However, Osimir, where are your Arab roots from, if you don't mind me asking? By the way, it's a shame that everyone couldn't see the exhibit of 2nd to 4th century Icons of the Holy Land lent by St. Catherine's Church in the Sinai which was touring this country. People viewing this exhibit notice that there is not an Arab depicted on these Icons and they also can see from the Icons how devoutly Christian these people were. The remnants of the people whose ancestors were lucky enough to survive as Christians can't even practice their religion in peace there.

 

[Osomir]

Hmm, how did the Christian Copts become Arabs?

They adopted Arabic as their primary language. They are an ethno-religious grouping, and a particularly potent subgrouping within the Arab lingual groups. They do have a historical coptic language that is held onto and a unique historical identity that was also held onto in the face of attempted larger Arabization.

Maybe you should ask some Christian Copts from Egypt who are now living in America if they consider themselves Arabs.

The ones I know do, same is true for Christian Palestinians who I know and Orthodox Christian Syrians.

By the way, when you ask many, many people from Iran where they are from, they always say Persia and don't consider themselves as Arabs.

Right, because they primarily do not speak Arabic as their official language. Historically ethnicity is based very strongly around language, coupled with a common sense of history, but usually, it is language which reigns supreme.

Iranians aren't Arabs.

However, Osimir, where are your Arab roots from, if you don't mind me asking?

I'm not an Arab.

 

[Hossfly]

Hmm, how did the Christian Copts become Arabs?

They adopted Arabic as their primary language. They are an ethno-religious grouping, and a particularly potent subgrouping within the Arab lingual groups. They do have a historical coptic language that is held onto and a unique historical identity that was also held onto in the face of attempted larger Arabization.

Maybe you should ask some Christian Copts from Egypt who are now living in America if they consider themselves Arabs.

The ones I know do, same is true for Christian Palestinians who I know and Orthodox Christian Syrians.

By the way, when you ask many, many people from Iran where they are from, they always say Persia and don't consider themselves as Arabs.

Right, because they primarily do not speak Arabic as their official language. Historically ethnicity is based very strongly around language, coupled with a common sense of history, but usually, it is language which reigns supreme.

Iranians aren't Arabs.

However, Osimir, where are your Arab roots from, if you don't mind me asking?

I'm not an Arab.

Gee, you mean that all those in the U.S. now who have come from different places and the rest of the American citizens whose ancestors also came from other countries are no longer to consider themselves as Italian Americans, Chinese Americans, etc. because they have adopted the English languyage of their choice. And being what is going on in Egypt right now, I doubt the Christian Copts here consider themselves as Arabs since it is the Arab Muslims who are saying the Copts are the outsiders and shouldn't be in Egypt. You are not an Arab, Osimir? You could have fooled the viewers since the Muslim Arabs and other Muslims seem obsessed with Israel no matter where they or their ancestors came from (whether the Middle East, Southeast Asia, Africa) and that is why they don't seem interested in what is happening in other parts of the world. Have you made any comments, Osimir, since you have many forums here to do so, on what is happening in Tunisia, Yemen, Egypt, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Mali, etc. What is to important to you about Israel when so much is happening (and many atrocities occurring) in other parts of the world?

 

[Osomir]

Gee, you mean that all those in the U.S. now who have come from different places and the rest of the American citizens whose ancestors also came from other countries are no longer to consider themselves as Italian Americans, Chinese Americans, etc. because they have adopted the English languyage of their choice.

Well notice that you put "American" at the end of each of those. First generation immigrants will usually identify very strongly with their homelands, but second and third generation may do so much less, if at all. Of course some have great pride in their family's history and that is where the cultural common roots aspect of ethnicity comes into play as I mentioned previously, but for many they would consider themselves American first.

It's interesting that you would bring up the US, because we are actually pretty unique in this social sense. We really are the exception to the general rule (and maybe Canada too). Our ability to be extremely diverse yet all still be American and considered to be in the same social class is one reason why our country is so amazing and one of the big reasons why I am so proud to be an American. Most of the world historically and even currently isn't set up that way socially. We truly did "bring forth a new nation". So pointing to the US as an example of traditional social constructions doesn't really work well.

And being what is going on in Egypt right now, I doubt the Christian Copts here consider themselves as Arabs since it is the Arab Muslims who are saying the Copts are the outsiders and shouldn't be in Egypt.

The existence of Sectarianism doesn't negate ethnic association (though it can over time and the example of Arab Jews is a good one there). It might reinforce their common history and Coptic tradition, but at this point they share a huge common history with Arab Muslims As well as a common language as well.

My Christian Arab friends would be quite offended at the idea that they weren't Arab because they were Christian. Such a notion dismisses large and significant portions of Arab history. Iraq for example used to be predominately Arab Nestorian Christian, and Arab Jewish. Arab Muslims came in third place in terms of religious affiliation for some time.

Also Arab is a pretty fluid term, One can be Arab and still be Egyptian, one can be Arab and still be Palestinian, one can be Arab and still be Bedouin, or Jewish (less so now), or Nubian, or even Kurdish (also less so now) and Somali.

Take one of the best known "Arab" Muslims of all time to us in the west as an example: Saladin, the taker of Jerusalem. He was Kurdish. His family became Arab through Arabization. He was a Kurdish Arab.

You are not an Arab, Osimir?

I am not, nor am I Muslim.

You could have fooled the viewers since the Muslim Arabs and other Muslims seem obsessed with Israel no matter where they or their ancestors came from (whether the Middle East, Southeast Asia, Africa) and that is why they don't seem interested in what is happening in other parts of the world.

Having an opinion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict doesn't make on an Arab or Muslim.

Are you an Arab since you're talking about the issue? Seems a bit silly to assume such a thing.

Have you made any comments, Osimir, since you have many forums here to do so, on what is happening in Tunisia, Yemen, Egypt, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Mali, etc.

Yes. In fact my specialty is Sub-Saharan Africa.

What is to important to you about Israel when so much is happening (and many atrocities occurring) in other parts of the world?

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a huge geo-political issue and a very long running run. Anyone interested in international affairs has come into contact with it, I'm no exception. My interest in it is based in the humanitarian and legal issues surrounding it. It is also interesting in terms of its history, its political and economic impacts regionally and globally and its role in terrorism and subsequently in counter terrorism efforts.

I think a better question is why would someone who is interested in global issues not be interested in the Israeli-Palestinian issue?

 

[Hoffstra]

Israel demolishes "illegal" Palestinian schools.......yet gives illegally built Jewish settlements retro-active building permits and allows settlements which it admits were built on stolen land to not pay rent or give back the land to its Arab owners.

racism anyone?

 

[Osomir]

Israel demolishes "illegal" Palestinian schools.......yet gives illegally built Jewish settlements retro-active building permits.

racism anyone?

Israel has been working on giving illegal outposts formal recognition in the Knesset directly contrary to international law.

Stating such a thing is in no way racist or bigoted, or in anyway anti-Jewish or anti-Israeli.

 

[Hoffstra]

Israel has been working on giving illegal outposts formal recognition in the Knesset directly contrary to international law.

Stating such a thing is in no way racist or bigoted, or in anyway anti-Jewish or anti-Israeli.

Israel clearly has one rule for Jewish housing and another rule for Arab housing.

this is racism.

It is Apartheid, Sabra-style.