Israel's Legal Right To Exist

[P F Tinmore]

member,

What does it mean?

fuck talking about the "tombstone" - what about YOU blaming the United States of America for the genocide happening in Syria ?

Most Respectfully,
R

This is the wrong thread for this. But here are links to the proper thread.

Aleppo liberated from terrorists

Aleppo liberated from terrorists

 

[MJB12741]

Ethnic cleansing is not numbers. It is location.

Here we go again re-defining terms in order to demonize Israel. It defies rational thinking. There are no Jews in Gaza and Areas A and B. There are almost no Jews left anywhere in the ME except Israel. There is a significant portion of Arab Muslims and Christians in Israel.

Where is this ethnic cleansing occurring, then?

You clearly do not understand ethnic cleansing, do you?

Isn’t it what they’re doing in Syria?






















p.s.:


no more crowds for him.





Him and his friends,
he/they murdered all of them. “Cleansed.”



p.s.s.:


what happened to that stupid anti-american tombstone picture of yours?

He may be right if us Americans keep on allowing radical Muslims to immigrate to our country.

 

[RoccoR]

MJB12741, et al,

I'm not sure if anyone knows what the strategy is to defeat DAESH (ISIS).

He may be right if us Americans keep on allowing radical Muslims to immigrate to our country.

(COMMENT)

Who is in charge of the Syrian Campaign?

How do we divide-up the parties to the conflict? (Who is on what side?)

Sometime into the future, one of these Regional Fighters is going to be a media scandal for the US Leadership and military. It will not be because the US did something wrong; but because the groups and environment changed.

The US is no longer a Superpower. But even if it was a Superpower, it does not have the influence to prevent creeping low intensity conflicts; and or deter the involvement of other global powers from stepping in and altering the course of the war. Since the end of the Clinton Administration, the once powerful roar of America has gradually become the prolonged cry of a nation in decline.

In 1969, the US Army was 15 Divisions strong and could fight two and a half war. It was a time when US Astronauts walks on the moon; and the Boeing 747 was making its first flights. Today we think of the Army in Brigades, the US still using the B-52 and Boeing 747, and our astronauts have to hitchhike into space.

What we are doing in Syria?

In last August (2016), Turkey (a US/NATO Ally) began an offensive against IS/DAESH --- and --- the YPG; which Turkey considers terrorists and insurgents. The YPG controls ≈ 20% of Syria and a significant chunk of the northern border with Turkey

YET! The People's Protection Units (YPG) is a key ally of the US against the Islamic State/DAESH. The US Special Forces coalition fighting IS/DAESH; altogether the coalition is called the Kurdish-Arab Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF).
​

If we don't back-out slowly and quietly, we are likely to come out as bad there as we did in Iraq.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

MJB12741, et al,

I'm not sure if anyone knows what the strategy is to defeat DAESH (ISIS).

He may be right if us Americans keep on allowing radical Muslims to immigrate to our country.

(COMMENT)

Who is in charge of the Syrian Campaign?

How do we divide-up the parties to the conflict? (Who is on what side?)

Sometime into the future, one of these Regional Fighters is going to be a media scandal for the US Leadership and military. It will not be because the US did something wrong; but because the groups and environment changed.

The US is no longer a Superpower. But even if it was a Superpower, it does not have the influence to prevent creeping low intensity conflicts; and or deter the involvement of other global powers from stepping in and altering the course of the war. Since the end of the Clinton Administration, the once powerful roar of America has gradually become the prolonged cry of a nation in decline.

In 1969, the US Army was 15 Divisions strong and could fight two and a half war. It was a time when US Astronauts walks on the moon; and the Boeing 747 was making its first flights. Today we think of the Army in Brigades, the US still using the B-52 and Boeing 747, and our astronauts have to hitchhike into space.

What we are doing in Syria?

In last August (2016), Turkey (a US/NATO Ally) began an offensive against IS/DAESH --- and --- the YPG; which Turkey considers terrorists and insurgents. The YPG controls ≈ 20% of Syria and a significant chunk of the northern border with Turkey

YET! The People's Protection Units (YPG) is a key ally of the US against the Islamic State/DAESH. The US Special Forces coalition fighting IS/DAESH; altogether the coalition is called the Kurdish-Arab Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF).
​

If we don't back-out slowly and quietly, we are likely to come out as bad there as we did in Iraq.

Most Respectfully,
R

Russia, Iran, and Hezbollah are the only ones in Syria legally. Everyone else with their hand in the pie is illegal.

It is true that those who destroyed Iraq based on a pack of lies and the same liars who created a vacuum in Syria created Daesh.

There is no question who that might be.

 

[Hollie]

MJB12741, et al,

I'm not sure if anyone knows what the strategy is to defeat DAESH (ISIS).

He may be right if us Americans keep on allowing radical Muslims to immigrate to our country.

(COMMENT)

Who is in charge of the Syrian Campaign?

How do we divide-up the parties to the conflict? (Who is on what side?)

Sometime into the future, one of these Regional Fighters is going to be a media scandal for the US Leadership and military. It will not be because the US did something wrong; but because the groups and environment changed.

The US is no longer a Superpower. But even if it was a Superpower, it does not have the influence to prevent creeping low intensity conflicts; and or deter the involvement of other global powers from stepping in and altering the course of the war. Since the end of the Clinton Administration, the once powerful roar of America has gradually become the prolonged cry of a nation in decline.

In 1969, the US Army was 15 Divisions strong and could fight two and a half war. It was a time when US Astronauts walks on the moon; and the Boeing 747 was making its first flights. Today we think of the Army in Brigades, the US still using the B-52 and Boeing 747, and our astronauts have to hitchhike into space.

What we are doing in Syria?

In last August (2016), Turkey (a US/NATO Ally) began an offensive against IS/DAESH --- and --- the YPG; which Turkey considers terrorists and insurgents. The YPG controls ≈ 20% of Syria and a significant chunk of the northern border with Turkey

YET! The People's Protection Units (YPG) is a key ally of the US against the Islamic State/DAESH. The US Special Forces coalition fighting IS/DAESH; altogether the coalition is called the Kurdish-Arab Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF).
​

If we don't back-out slowly and quietly, we are likely to come out as bad there as we did in Iraq.

Most Respectfully,
R

Russia, Iran, and Hezbollah are the only ones in Syria legally. Everyone else with their hand in the pie is illegal.

It is true that those who destroyed Iraq based on a pack of lies and the same liars who created a vacuum in Syria created Daesh.

There is no question who that might be.

I think the above is just another rambling screed intended to blame the Great Satan™ for the disease of Islamist ideology.

Daesh differs from any of the other islamist fascist parties gaining power across the Middle East only in degrees of retrogression. The Hamas vs. Fatah civil war was nearly as vicious as what Daesh does to Arabs-Moslems, just on a broader scale. You're hoping to sidestep the fact that all the Islamic Boys Clubs, by whatever name they assign their franchises, are subordinate to an ideology. Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Daesh, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah, etc., are not so much Islamic terrorist "organizations" as they are a retrograde politico-religious ideology and a worldview. Within these groups, and only separating them by the amount of financing they acquire to maintain their mini-caliphates, they all subscribe to a virulent manifesto of God-given Islamosupremacy, and they are the blueprint for the Religion of Peace's assault on humanity.

It's easier to identify discrete groups of Islamic terrorists with a name, rather than the politico-religious ideology that inspires them.

 

[member]

MJB12741, et al,

I'm not sure if anyone knows what the strategy is to defeat DAESH (ISIS).

He may be right if us Americans keep on allowing radical Muslims to immigrate to our country.

(COMMENT)

Who is in charge of the Syrian Campaign?

How do we divide-up the parties to the conflict? (Who is on what side?)

Sometime into the future, one of these Regional Fighters is going to be a media scandal for the US Leadership and military. It will not be because the US did something wrong; but because the groups and environment changed.

The US is no longer a Superpower. But even if it was a Superpower, it does not have the influence to prevent creeping low intensity conflicts; and or deter the involvement of other global powers from stepping in and altering the course of the war. Since the end of the Clinton Administration, the once powerful roar of America has gradually become the prolonged cry of a nation in decline.

In 1969, the US Army was 15 Divisions strong and could fight two and a half war. It was a time when US Astronauts walks on the moon; and the Boeing 747 was making its first flights. Today we think of the Army in Brigades, the US still using the B-52 and Boeing 747, and our astronauts have to hitchhike into space.

What we are doing in Syria?

In last August (2016), Turkey (a US/NATO Ally) began an offensive against IS/DAESH --- and --- the YPG; which Turkey considers terrorists and insurgents. The YPG controls ≈ 20% of Syria and a significant chunk of the northern border with Turkey

YET! The People's Protection Units (YPG) is a key ally of the US against the Islamic State/DAESH. The US Special Forces coalition fighting IS/DAESH; altogether the coalition is called the Kurdish-Arab Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF).
​

If we don't back-out slowly and quietly, we are likely to come out as bad there as we did in Iraq.

Most Respectfully,
R

Russia, Iran, and Hezbollah are the only ones in Syria legally. Everyone else with their hand in the pie is illegal.

It is true that those who destroyed Iraq based on a pack of lies and the same liars who created a vacuum in Syria created Daesh.

There is no question who that might be.

...blaming "america" (me) for islamic terrorism.

you are a very disturbing, hateful man. screw you. blaming me for the genocide in syria. vomitus, nutjob ramblings......you have this irrationality...it's to weird, even for me.. you're from 'some other fucking world."

i promise, never-ever to read or reply to your posts. reading your posts/replying... would only make me feel dumbed-down (...EVEN more than....usual....lol).

Go to hell you son of a bitch.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I'm not sure I understand you.

Russia, Iran, and Hezbollah are the only ones in Syria legally. Everyone else with their hand in the pie is illegal.

It is true that those who destroyed Iraq based on a pack of lies and the same liars who created a vacuum in Syria created Daesh.

There is no question who that might be.

(COMMENT)

What criteria are you using to distinguish between (in Syria) "illegal" and (in Syria) "legal" counter-DAESH Operations in Syria?

Of course, you have to remember that the Arab League changes their interpretation to fit their action.

The use of force in any territory of another state is prohibited under the UN Charter and Customary International Law. The four universally recognized exceptions (that the Arab Countries make use of frequently) to the Chapter I prohibitions are:

• UN Security Council Chapter VII authorization;
• Consent from the state on whose territory the operations are conducted;
• Self-defense;
• Collective self-defense.
• Humanitarian intervention involving “overwhelming humanitarian exigency or necessity”.
​

The US is opposed to —

• The President al-Assad. Regime Also,
• The Islamic State,
• All the other jihadi groups fighting in Syria — including

• Jabhat al-Nusra (the al-Qaeda affiliate)
• Ahrar al-Sham
• Hezbollah forces
• Iranian forces supporting the Syrian government.
​

It really does not matter who the US is allied with, or opposed to; the various Jihadist, Deadly Fedayeen, Hostile Insurgent, Radicalized Islamist, and Asymmetric Fighters will assume the opposite station keeping to that of the US.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

The US is opposed to —
• The President al-Assad. Regime Also,
• The Islamic State,
• All the other jihadi groups fighting in Syria — including

• Jabhat al-Nusra (the al-Qaeda affiliate)
• Ahrar al-Sham
• Hezbollah forces
• Iranian forces supporting the Syrian government.

It doesn't matter who we don't like. We still have to stay out of other countries.

 

[Hossfly]

The US is opposed to —
• The President al-Assad. Regime Also,
• The Islamic State,
• All the other jihadi groups fighting in Syria — including

• Jabhat al-Nusra (the al-Qaeda affiliate)
• Ahrar al-Sham
• Hezbollah forces
• Iranian forces supporting the Syrian government.

It doesn't matter who we don't like. We still have to stay out of other countries.

How about you telling Abbas to stay the hell out of Israel then. Deal?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The use of force in any territory of another state is prohibited under the UN Charter and Customary International Law.

Indeed, that is what I have always said.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

So you are saying (for example) that the intrusion by the Arab League against Israel was prohibited...?

The use of force in any territory of another state is prohibited under the UN Charter and Customary International Law.

Indeed, that is what I have always said.

(COMMENT)

Yes, I would rather like to have seen the nature of the Syrian Arab Republic (al-Assad Regime) if the US had just allowed DAESH/ISIS to take its course. These various factions would have just torn-up everything in its path; eventually taking control of Syria (ousting the al-Assad Regime) and be on the border of Jordan.

Believe me when I say that there were some very strong arguments for allowing the Arab on Arab carnage take its course, and allow DAESH/ISIS destroy the historical legacies of the region.

But even though the voice of reason prevailed back then, today you see the signs that Russian support to counter DAESH/ISIS is withdrawing.

Syrian opposition welcomes Russian drawdown
Asked Tuesday whether the Russian withdrawal signaled a case of "mission accomplished," Shaaban replied, "Hundreds of villages have been liberated, many towns have been liberated from armed gangs, huge parts of Syria have been liberated."
She said Russia's Defense Ministry had said the "war against terrorism will continue. And we are happy also to see Russian-American coordination in fighting terrorism."
Russia's steps were "the right steps toward a political settlement and also toward a continuation of fighting terrorism," she continued.

Admittedly, it gradual draw-down will be slow; but the intent is there.

The Russian Defense Ministry: Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier set sail for home
Friday, January 13, 2017 10:31:00 AM

​

The more were step back and allow the Arab-on-Arab fighting to continue, the clearer the Regional Stability develop.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Shusha]

Because the area is being cleansed for Jewish only settlements.

I think you are incorrect to label this as ethnic cleansing. I think you are over-simplifying the extremely complex issues involved here, especially those of urban planning, urbanization and the competing desire to maintain traditional agricultural way of life in a very small country. The issues are much more complex than removing people because of their ethnicity.

That said, I absolutely believe there is a form of institutionalized discrimination at play here, as well as forced eviction and segregation. And I believe Israel is rightly criticized for its policies with respect to its Bedouin citizens (they are all Israel citizens and thus, at least theoretically, are not colored the conflict).

As I said, it is a complex issue, and it is extremely difficult to find good, objective sources, but let me try to give an overview:

There are 39 "unrecognized" Bedouin villages in the Negev region, comprising of ~70,000 people. (There are 6 villages which have been recognized). These villages represent locations where, in the past ~75 years, traditional, nomadic tribes have fallen into a more sedentary and localize agricultural lifestyle. The location of these villages is based on complex and competing tribal relationships as well as the result of the upheaval of the War of Independence. Some of those villages (including Umm al-Hiran in 1956) received government permission to settle on that land. The villages, however, were not considered or included in Israel's long-term land use strategy and planning. It may be that Israel's intent was to permit only temporary use of the land. This land is not "privately owned" by any citizen, and is State land. This is not land which is historically "ancestral" land in the sense often used by advocates in this conflict.

The issue is that this land does not fit into Israel's long-term urban planning schedule. Israel does not intend for this land to be traditional, local, agricultural subsistence-level farming. This conflict between urbanization and traditional farming communities is a common one all over the world. It is not primarily a conflict of ethnicities -- but a conflict of technology and civilization.

So what is Israel to do? First, it offered incentives -- each married couple and each single male over the age of 24 was offered legal ownership of a 800 sq m parcel of land in the nearby town of Hura with 100,000 NIS to build a house. Hura offered not only legal ownership of land and a home, but also water, electricity, and access to schools and medical services. The majority of the residents accepted this offer. The remaining ~700 residents refused.

But, there are problems with Hura. Unemployment is high. Housing is limited by physical space and there are families waiting to receive housing from the government (the Bedouin population''s fertility rate is so high the population doubles every 15 years). There are tribal and family conflicts.

The remaining residents of Umm al-Hiran have also been offered parcels of land within the new Hiran community to be built there. Those parcels are necessarily smaller than those in Hura, because the land parcels in Hiran are smaller universally.

The residents seem to be resisting this incorporation into the new Hiran community, near as I can tell. (As I said, it is difficult to get detailed, accurate information). The residents of Umm al-Hiran appear, at least to me, to want to maintain a semi-traditional, rural, agricultural subsistence farming-bound life. The ~700 residents want individual or communal ownership of the land they currently farm, and they will need enough land reserves to deal with a population which doubles ever 15 years.

Now, having said all that, there is a tendency in Israel to segregate Arab and Jewish communities. (No, don't go all apartheid on me -- its not that). There is an element of embedded, even institutionalized racism. It occurs on both sides. Its not much different than segregated communities which occur all over the world -- in the US, Canada, UK, Europe.

So what is Israel to do? What is the solution to this? Its a complex problem. Its a problem tackled by many countries in the past and still being addressed in many places today.

Its easy enough to say, "well, just give the 39 Bedouin villages recognition and land ownership within defined and official village boundaries, provide them with water, electricity, sanitation, education and medical facilities." And I wouldn't disagree with you. But be aware that this 'solution' presents a new host of problems. In the six villages which have been recognized, there is a problem with them growing outside their boundaries, building illegal houses there, taking over land which is not under their ownership. What does Israel do then?

Its a good discussion to have. This actually is one of the areas where people can legitimately criticize Israel. Be glad to have this debate with anyone willing to pursue it with integrity.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So you are saying (for example) that the intrusion by the Arab League against Israel was prohibited...?

Israeli talking point. Nobody has ever proven that to be true.

 

[Shusha]

So you are saying (for example) that the intrusion by the Arab League against Israel was prohibited...?

Israeli talking point. Nobody has ever proven that to be true.

Oh please! What was never proven to be true? That the Arab League nations sent or permitted troops into Israel and "Palestine" to fight against the Jewish people and the nascent Israeli nation? Are you saying it never happened? You've got to be kidding me.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

So you are saying (for example) that the intrusion by the Arab League against Israel was prohibited...?

The use of force in any territory of another state is prohibited under the UN Charter and Customary International Law.

Indeed, that is what I have always said.

(COMMENT)

Yes, I would rather like to have seen the nature of the Syrian Arab Republic (al-Assad Regime) if the US had just allowed DAESH/ISIS to take its course. These various factions would have just torn-up everything in its path; eventually taking control of Syria (ousting the al-Assad Regime) and be on the border of Jordan.

Believe me when I say that there were some very strong arguments for allowing the Arab on Arab carnage take its course, and allow DAESH/ISIS destroy the historical legacies of the region.

But even though the voice of reason prevailed back then, today you see the signs that Russian support to counter DAESH/ISIS is withdrawing.

Syrian opposition welcomes Russian drawdown
Asked Tuesday whether the Russian withdrawal signaled a case of "mission accomplished," Shaaban replied, "Hundreds of villages have been liberated, many towns have been liberated from armed gangs, huge parts of Syria have been liberated."
She said Russia's Defense Ministry had said the "war against terrorism will continue. And we are happy also to see Russian-American coordination in fighting terrorism."
Russia's steps were "the right steps toward a political settlement and also toward a continuation of fighting terrorism," she continued.

Admittedly, it gradual draw-down will be slow; but the intent is there.

The Russian Defense Ministry: Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier set sail for home
Friday, January 13, 2017 10:31:00 AM

​

The more were step back and allow the Arab-on-Arab fighting to continue, the clearer the Regional Stability develop.

Most Respectfully,
R

Would Daesh ever have gained foothold in Syria if they were not busy fighting the US and friends?

 

[P F Tinmore]

So you are saying (for example) that the intrusion by the Arab League against Israel was prohibited...?

Israeli talking point. Nobody has ever proven that to be true.

Oh please! What was never proven to be true? That the Arab League nations sent or permitted troops into Israel and "Palestine" to fight against the Jewish people and the nascent Israeli nation? Are you saying it never happened? You've got to be kidding me.

Thar Arab League fought Israel troops in Palestine.

 

[Shusha]

Thar Arab League fought Israel troops in Palestine.

Okay, so you agree that it did happen. So what was the point of your last post? You said it had never been proven true. WHAT was "never proven true"?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Thar Arab League fought Israel troops in Palestine.

Okay, so you agree that it did happen. So what was the point of your last post? You said it had never been proven true. WHAT was "never proven true"?

That Israel was attacked.

 

[Shusha]

That Israel was attacked.

Ah. Okay. So you agree that it is prohibited for a State to use military force to interfere with territory not under its sovereignty (presumably with the exceptions Rocco laid out). And you agree that the Arab League did use military force in territory not under its sovereignty.

So unless you are calling in one of the exceptions (and I rather think you are, specifically the "permission" one), you agree with Rocco that the Arab League acted illegally by using military force outside their own sovereign territory.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Ah. Okay. So you agree that it is prohibited for a State to use military force to interfere with territory not under its sovereignty

That is not what the law says.