It's a False Doctrine That People Go To Heaven Immediately After Death

[Vox]

In any case this was the post of yours, that my counter point was directed.




And, No, Vox. I'm sorry but they are not His words. He said He was setting up shop in Israel, His inheritance. If His followers are never separated from Him again, how are they going to be in Heaven for eternity when he's relocating to earth?

The same people that told you what Christ said, told you more about Him. You have shunned all of their information except for the red words in the Bible. And to make up for what you passed over in the Book, you relied on self to complete the picture.

Not every one rises at the same time or even at the same event. You ignored that part of the Bible. His return to earth to rule and reign for 1,000 years before He holds the White Throne Judgment is scriptural. And I quoted it for you. Some formally dead, are alive at the beginning of the 1,000 years to rule and reign with Christ and some aren't raised until after the 1,000 years, for the WTJ.
The same person that told you what Christ said, told you that very thing. And that Satan who will have been restrained since the Nations Judgment will even be loosened for a short time immediately prior to the WTJ.
You can't pick and choose what parts of the Bible you think are symbolism and what you think may be literal.
Christ can't kind of judge and punish indiscriminately, some literally and some symbolically. He doesn't even have the discretion to lighten one's sentence or harshen another's for the same crime. He must be 100% just in meting out rewards, crowns, or punishment for sin. < to those who didn't accept Christ's gift of sin free blood in place of their own.

You have also reinvented Heaven. You don't go there for eternity if you are in the correct lane, It is coming here. How large is New Jerusalem? If it's "more symbolism", why give it's exact dimensions?
And you have confused the Judgment of the Nations (right and left sides or aka sheep vs goats) when He returns to prevent man from annihilation of all life on earth at end the tribulation, with the WTJ.
I provided you with the scripture on why He judges the nations after the trib., so they won't create a problem for Israel during His 1,000 year reign.
That is completely different than the WTJ <( no right or left lanes. and none of His sheep on the docket.) that takes place after the thousand year reign. Two completely different events. Both scriptural and literal.

And you have His first coming/revealing< cross, confused with His second coming/revealing< Lion of Judah

But here's the good part. If you know nothing at all except for the faith in the passages which quote the Lord, then you don't need to believe in the rapture. You'll be going up to meet Him in the air, anyway.

Christ en/trusted the people that have given us what knowledge of Jesus we have today. He felt they were the ones reliable enough to feed us. "Jesus said" to them, to feed His sheep. We are the sheep. I don't know of one preacher that confines His education about the Lord, to Jesus' quotes, exclusively.
It's all about Jesus.

I am sorry, Irish, but I do not agree with a newly ( relatively as it is about 200 years old) invented heresy of millennium and rapture as it DIRECTLY contradicts the words of Our Lord.

HE did not EVER mention any earthly millennial kingdoms, raptures or any additional judgements - and that is what matters, not what mere humans are reading into the words of His followers written decades later.

How many books have you read on dispensationalism?
Can you give me a bibliography of books you have read on dispensationalism?
Do you have anything against a literal and grammatical interpretation of the Bible?

why on earth should I read on something I do not believe in( dispensationalism)?

I have already told you that I am amillennial classic preterist and I do not interpret the Bible literally and grammatically.

 

[GISMYS]

i am sorry, irish, but i do not agree with a newly ( relatively as it is about 200 years old) invented heresy of millennium and rapture as it directly contradicts the words of our lord.

He did not ever mention any earthly millennial kingdoms, raptures or any additional judgements - and that is what matters, not what mere humans are reading into the words of his followers written decades later.

how many books have you read on dispensationalism?
Can you give me a bibliography of books you have read on dispensationalism?
Do you have anything against a literal and grammatical interpretation of the bible?

why on earth should i read on something i do not believe in( dispensationalism)?

I have already told you that i am amillennial classic preterist and i do not interpret the bible literally and gramatically.

you make a fatal error!! Count the cost!!!

 

[Vox]

how many books have you read on dispensationalism?
Can you give me a bibliography of books you have read on dispensationalism?
Do you have anything against a literal and grammatical interpretation of the bible?

why on earth should i read on something i do not believe in( dispensationalism)?

I have already told you that i am amillennial classic preterist and i do not interpret the bible literally and gramatically.

you make a fatal error!! Count the cost!!!

*shrug*

I can tell that to you as well - a heresy of 200+ years old IS a fatal error.

 

[Mertex]

piss off or stay on track of the discussion. life is not evolving around you even if you wish so.

Says the one that brings "politics" into a discussion regarding religion.....seems to me you and the Prophet have a chip on your shoulders....maybe it's further down from the shoulders?
How is your personal attack relevant to the discussion? Life doesn't revolve around your vitriol, either.

repeating - piss off

Take your own advice, why don't you? Quit attacking people with off-topic jabs if you don't want to be confronted.

 

[Vox]

Says the one that brings "politics" into a discussion regarding religion.....seems to me you and the Prophet have a chip on your shoulders....maybe it's further down from the shoulders?
How is your personal attack relevant to the discussion? Life doesn't revolve around your vitriol, either.

repeating - piss off

Take your own advice, why don't you? Quit attacking people with off-topic jabs if you don't want to be confronted.

piss off, retard

 

[Mertex]

repeating - piss off

Take your own advice, why don't you? Quit attacking people with off-topic jabs if you don't want to be confronted.

piss off, retard

Quit talking to yourself.....

 

[Chuckt]

I am sorry, Irish, but I do not agree with a newly ( relatively as it is about 200 years old) invented heresy of millennium and rapture as it DIRECTLY contradicts the words of Our Lord.

HE did not EVER mention any earthly millennial kingdoms, raptures or any additional judgements - and that is what matters, not what mere humans are reading into the words of His followers written decades later.

How many books have you read on dispensationalism?
Can you give me a bibliography of books you have read on dispensationalism?
Do you have anything against a literal and grammatical interpretation of the Bible?

why on earth should I read on something I do not believe in( dispensationalism)?

I have already told you that I am amillennial classic preterist and I do not interpret the Bible literally and grammatically.

Why should a kid try carrots or peas or broccoli? Some kids will only try chicken nuggets, pizza and peanut butter sandwiches. That isn't a balanced diet.

I didn't appreciate art until I went to the Art museum and they taught me about art appreciation. Because I understand some of it a little, I appreciate it more.

How do you know you are right about dissing something if you don't understand what you are dissing?

Why try a restaurant and a sit down dinner when you can get fast food? Why wait 45 minutes for a good cooked meal at a restaurant when you can go to McDonald's or Burger King?

If you are willing to try something, get to know something, etc., maybe you will see there is more to it than meets the eye.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Well, that's true, but there is no harm in trying to figure out what some of what was told to us in the Bible means.....that's just our nature, the way He made us.

is there harm in creating division in Christ's church over issues that are meaningless?.......and there are many things about human nature that He is not happy with.......

 

[PostmodernProph]

And, when someone asks you what you know about God/Jesus, you don't want to appear clueless

lol....to be perfectly honest, the arguments about the millenium have caused many unbelievers to conclude that Christians are clueless.....

 

[Mertex]

Well, that's true, but there is no harm in trying to figure out what some of what was told to us in the Bible means.....that's just our nature, the way He made us.

is there harm in creating division in Christ's church over issues that are meaningless?.......and there are many things about human nature that He is not happy with.......

Yes there is.....and that is why I respect those that have different opinions, most of the differences are not important.

That's why I said in one of my previous posts, the main thing is to "believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and then make Him your Lord" .... everything that matters will fall into place, maybe not right away, but eventually...and your life will be better for it.

 

[Mertex]

And, when someone asks you what you know about God/Jesus, you don't want to appear clueless

lol....to be perfectly honest, the arguments about the millenium have caused many unbelievers to conclude that Christians are clueless.....

Well, that's true.....that's why I don't try to push my opinion of it on others...people will choose to believe what they want to. But, this thread was for the purpose of debating the OP, and that subject came up, giving one's opinion is not arguing, just stating what you believe.

You believe it is not important, and you're right.....nobody has it 100% correct anyway ....most just go by what they read in the Bible and try to make educated guesses....but regardless of which one you believe in, it's not the thing that is going to get you into Heaven.

 

[Vox]

How many books have you read on dispensationalism?
Can you give me a bibliography of books you have read on dispensationalism?
Do you have anything against a literal and grammatical interpretation of the Bible?

why on earth should I read on something I do not believe in( dispensationalism)?

I have already told you that I am amillennial classic preterist and I do not interpret the Bible literally and grammatically.

Why should a kid try carrots or peas or broccoli? Some kids will only try chicken nuggets, pizza and peanut butter sandwiches. That isn't a balanced diet.

I didn't appreciate art until I went to the Art museum and they taught me about art appreciation. Because I understand some of it a little, I appreciate it more.

How do you know you are right about dissing something if you don't understand what you are dissing?

Why try a restaurant and a sit down dinner when you can get fast food? Why wait 45 minutes for a good cooked meal at a restaurant when you can go to McDonald's or Burger King?

If you are willing to try something, get to know something, etc., maybe you will see there is more to it than meets the eye.

*shrug*

I am already enjoying the superior meal at at high end restaurant and have absolutely no desire to try a burnt burger at a your chain - and that is exactly what your heresy is.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I am sorry, Irish, but I do not agree with a newly ( relatively as it is about 200 years old) invented heresy of millennium and rapture as it DIRECTLY contradicts the words of Our Lord.

HE did not EVER mention any earthly millennial kingdoms, raptures or any additional judgements - and that is what matters, not what mere humans are reading into the words of His followers written decades later.

HIS timeline was verysimple and pretty straightforward - He is going to come again only ONCE - and that is going to be for the Last Judgement only - the time is known only to the Father, and the Second Coming is going to be preceded by increased persecution of His followers and increase in false prophets preaching ( that one is on a display for sure). That is the Second Coming which is described in Thessalonians 4 ( which all this construction of rapture is based on) and obviously Paul is considering the Christ followers to be Judged as the ones on the right of Him - and therefore united with Him after the Judgement - that is obvious from the context.

NOTHING ELSE.

He was not talking EVER about any intermediate Judgements, third comings, catching in the air and all other nonsense. That is pretty telling to ME.
All complicated constructions of additional Judgements, partial and otherwise, snatching to the air et cetera - is a HUMAN reading into the words of His followers - and you want me to consider HUMAN determination of the End Times to be superior to the words of Our Lord?

However, I do agree with you that what you beleive as the end of Times and what others do - is most likely secondary to what is needed for salvation. We all are already redeemed by His death, but we all are working on our salvation individually.
How we see the End Times is not that relevant to it, IMHO

Oh Lord........
Vulgate circa 382. The Latin word raptus, relating to rapiemur was used to translate snatched out of.
Even if Jerome hadn't used the latin word, you are still faced with the dilemma of what snatched out of refers to in the original.

Rarely does one have to rely on 1 scripture to validate a Biblical point.
There is Matthew 24:40-42 and
Luke 17:34-37.

And there's this:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 &#8220;Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.&#8221;

^
Note the absence of judgment or condemnation or punishment for that group. In 11/100th of a second, eternal incorruptible life with Jesus forever, there, here, here and there, other dimensions, other creations He may have created,....... eternity.

But the reason we lean so heavily on 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is because Jesus said it:

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.&#8221;

And He said this:

John 11:25-26 I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die&#8221;

The only way a human can escape death is for the ability to die to be rendered no longer a possibility. Incorruptible takes place before the opportunity to die comes along.

Jesus said this, right before His crucification:

John 14:2-3 &#8220;In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.&#8221;

That is up. He never touches the earth. And it's a clear description of Heaven and has to happen before he touches down on the Mt. of Olives and produces an earthquake. When He comes down for that event, He never leaves. The second coming to earth is a clear description of, earth. In the clouds is not the same.

Jesus said:
&#8220;Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass....&#8221;


The relevance to the End Time is He's coming Back. Satan is chained and so is pain and heartache and disease, and hatred and cruelty. He's coming back. He stops us from destroying all life. His return is tantamount to life continuing on this earth.

Peace, goodwill, brotherly love, hope, Isaac and Ishmael blessing one another. Love. Because He's coming back.

Isaiah 9:6-7
For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

 

[Vox]

Rarely does one have to rely on 1 scripture to validate a Biblical point.
There is Matthew 24:40-42 and
Luke 17:34-37.

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. &#8220;Tell us,&#8221; they said, &#8220;when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?&#8221;

(and all others as welll)
you do realize it is about the Second Coming and Last Judgement, and not any "snatching" don't you?

 

[Vox]

That is up. He never touches the earth. And it's a clear description of Heaven and has to happen before he touches down on the Mt. of Olives and produces an earthquake. When He comes down for that event, He never leaves. The second coming to earth is a clear description of, earth. In the clouds is not the same.

so WHAT? Maybe He is going to Judge us from the air - what difference does it make?

all quotes you have provided speak about His SECOND COMING at the END of TIMES for LAST JUDGEMENT - where on earth do you get the idea that after that coming and Judgement there is going to be any millenniums?

and after the Last Judgement the ones to be joined with Our Lord can join Him in the air - if you want to call it rapture - I do not object - but that is the only rapture which will happen - all the saved after the Last Judgement joining Our Lord in their glorious spiritual bodies will proceed to celebrate eternity with Him.

 

[Vox]

The relevance to the End Time is He's coming Back. Satan is chained and so is pain and heartache and disease, and hatred and cruelty. He's coming back. He stops us from destroying all life. His return is tantamount to life continuing on this earth.

Peace, goodwill, brotherly love, hope, Isaac and Ishmael blessing one another. Love. Because He's coming back.

Of course, He is coming back

He said so - he will come again to Judge the living and the dead ( which will arise).

I hope I will meet you on the Right

 

[PostmodernProph]

Well, that's true.....

I wish more people would add that to their replies to me.....

 

[The Irish Ram]

The relevance to the End Time is He's coming Back. Satan is chained and so is pain and heartache and disease, and hatred and cruelty. He's coming back. He stops us from destroying all life. His return is tantamount to life continuing on this earth.

Peace, goodwill, brotherly love, hope, Isaac and Ishmael blessing one another. Love. Because He's coming back.

Of course, He is coming back

He said so - he will come again to Judge the living and the dead ( which will arise).

I hope I will meet you on the Right

Oh I'm sorry, but I have decided to drag you up with me. It's for your own good.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Well, that's true.....

I wish more people would add that to their replies to me.....

Post, honey, I'm going to pos rep you just for the humility it took to type that post.
To the future......

 

[Fearandloathing]

Ah...I love hypothetical debates....

no one loses, no one wins, as no one has ever died and gone to heaven and come back save one guy and a lot of people don't believe he even existed let alone partied hearty making water into wine! My kind of partier.

But, 'heaven' is eternity. So, in effect, them that are going are already there, yesterday, today and tomorrow in that impossible to conceive concept of absolutely no thing called time, which when you think about it was man's most destructive invention.