It's The Books!

[AVG-JOE]

what do you mean by natural means?

interpretations through the Universe and God's creation the Garden of Earth.

.

best nonsense answer today!

No... I like his answer!

If I had an ancient text that spoke of and interpreted my world, I too would be a Believer!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB9YIsKIEbA]I'm a Believer - The Monkees - YouTube[/ame]

 

[AVG-JOE]

I don't know. Why did God choose Joseph? Or Moses? Or Jonah? Or moving on, why the Apostle Paul, a fanatical extremist Zionist Pharasaic Jew determined to kill every Jew who even thought about following the Jesus religion? Paul had certain credentials that served him well being both respected Jew AND a Roman citizen, but surely there were more amicable, attractive, and capable people to call?

I long ago gave up trying to second guess why God does anything. I came to the point I finally gave up and admitted he was much more powerful and a whole lot smarter than I was. And it was pretty much useless trying to take his place and/or tell him how things ought to be done.

And I don't know whether I would obey and give up everything if God told me to. I would like to think that I would, but since it hasn't happened, I haven't had to find out. I will say, at those times God has called me to do something, he sure doesn't let a body off the hook.

A finer set of queries I could not have posed myself.

Why?​

Why did the Romans so successfully take the church political after year 300?

God had to be going ​

Why did God pick the God-Forsaken chunk of dirt that he did for His Chosen Ones?

Why did God not hear the cries of the 15th - 17th Century Slaves and indigenous people displaced and brutalized in the name of Profit by His representative The Pope, who took it upon himself to divide the planet among his friends, once it was roughly mapped?

Why?

Constantine embraced Christianity in the fourth century because he was having a hell of a time managing a quarreling and diverse Roman Empire with barbarians at the gates on several fronts. And he recognized the superior organizational skills the Christians Church had developed and decided to utilize that with their help. (He also had a vision that encouraged this but that is more complicated than we need to go into.) And that fortuous turn of events (for the Church) gave it favored status and ability to spread throughout the Roman Empire pretty well unhindered.

God's hand was in all that? Of course I think so.

Which brings us back to "why?"

What love-loss did God have for the Roman Empire?

I just don't see the involvement of a Father in our History. At least not one who gave a shit about His Monkeys.

 

[Foxfyre]

Jesus's Great Commission was to go to the whole world making disciples. The Roman Empire was a huge chunk of the known world of that time. And we who know God believe the old saw that he indeed works in mysterious ways.

And why popes, most especially corrupt ones, and why 'religious' monarchs who teamed up with those same opportunistic popes to rule, and why something as hateful and horrendous as the Inquisition or the Salem witch burnings or other atrocities committed in the name of Christ? I believe here we see the same pattern of power corrupts and the use of noble sounding things to control others that we have witnessed throughout history. No dictator or other opportunistic authoritarian comes to power by telling the people the evil he intends to do. No he promises them great things, grandiose programs with high minded sounding titles, etc. etc. etc. After he has the power, it is usually too late for them to protest even when they learn it was all lies.

That is not God's doing in my opinion. But God cannot allow us free will so that we can know maximum joy without also allowing evil. One of those mysteries we will have explained at some distant time.

 

[AVG-JOE]

As long as we all have a plan.

To me our checkered history is VERY explainable by the concepts of greed and survival of the most fit.

After death? Anyone's guess.

 

[daws101]

interpretations through the Universe and God's creation the Garden of Earth.

.

best nonsense answer today!

No... I like his answer!

If I had an ancient text that spoke of and interpreted my world, I too would be a Believer!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB9YIsKIEbA]I'm a Believer - The Monkees - YouTube[/ame]

when you put it like that:[ame=http://youtu.be/0mYBSayCsH0]Smash Mouth - I'm A Believer - YouTube[/ame]

 

[AVG-JOE]

^^ Fun Video!

 

[daws101]

^^ Fun Video!

IT IS !
good remake too..

 

[Avatar4321]

A finer set of queries I could not have posed myself.

Why?​

Why did the Romans so successfully take the church political after year 300?

God had to be going ​

Why did God pick the God-Forsaken chunk of dirt that he did for His Chosen Ones?

Why did God not hear the cries of the 15th - 17th Century Slaves and indigenous people displaced and brutalized in the name of Profit by His representative The Pope, who took it upon himself to divide the planet among his friends, once it was roughly mapped?

Why?

Constantine embraced Christianity in the fourth century because he was having a hell of a time managing a quarreling and diverse Roman Empire with barbarians at the gates on several fronts. And he recognized the superior organizational skills the Christians Church had developed and decided to utilize that with their help. (He also had a vision that encouraged this but that is more complicated than we need to go into.) And that fortuous turn of events (for the Church) gave it favored status and ability to spread throughout the Roman Empire pretty well unhindered.

God's hand was in all that? Of course I think so.

Which brings us back to "why?"

What love-loss did God have for the Roman Empire?

I just don't see the involvement of a Father in our History. At least not one who gave a shit about His Monkeys.

To preserve Christianity. To preserve the scriptures.

I dont know how you cannot see His fingers throughout history.

You think it's a coincidence that the Muslim conquored lands from Spain to China?

Do you think it's a coincidence that by "random" chance the Islamic conquorers captured a paper maker from China in a little known skirmish that brought paper to Europe through that Empire?

Do you think it's a coincidence that Ireland was converted to Christianity right at the time Rome was falling and able to preserve all the Christian and Classical texts away from where all the fall out was?

Do you think it's a coincidence that the Printing press gained popularity in Europe where the Bible was popular and the people desired to read it while the printing press invented in East Asia didn't?

Do you think it's a coincidence that the second the Bible started going to the people, the people began to notice some things wrong with the Church and started agitating for a more Biblical faith?

Do you think it's a coincidence that at the same time Europe had begun exploring the world? That Columbus found the New World?

Do you think it's just a coincidence that our forefathers left Europe for Religious freedom on the American continent?

Do you think it's coincidence that they just happened to benefit from thousands of years of human history to create one of the greatest nations in the history of the world?

Do you think it's coincidence that our Forefathers were preserved by Divine Providence throughout the Revolutionary War when they should have been overcome within the first year? Battle of Boston. Battle of Long Island. Trenton and Princeton and countless more all have the finger of Divine Providence upon them.

You think it's a coincidence that industrialization started then?

Providence is all over human history. All for His work in the Last days to go as planned.

All things denote the existence of the Lord.

 

[AVG-JOE]

In a word, yes.

I do think it was all fomented by greed, motivated by profit and completely random, save what influence the Monkeys were able to inject in to the process.

Any EVIDENCE to the contrary?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I jest... I do know why.

And The Word was God.

`​

I find your honesty and sincerity compelling, Joe. God surely has his Hand upon your life. God bless you.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Still not sure why so many agree that the voices playing inside Abraham's head were indeed The Creator of The Universe (especially against the back-drop of a modern definition for 'Universe'), but oh well... suffice to say that for some, Abe remains, THE man.

​

We'll have to agree to disagree. If forced to ass-U-Me the Divine, I still favor the voice inside my own head for it.

Why should we question that Abraham was a man of God and called by God whether he was an actual historical figure or was symbolic of a people chosen by God? The entirety of the Old Testament is based on just such a concept as are those who became Christian patriarchs. It is the only concept that would make any sense to the ancient scribes who first wrote down the oral traditions that related the stories.

It's not a question of whether or not Abraham existed, or even whether or not it truly was God's voice in his head. The question is, 'what makes Abraham special?' Why would God possibly want to work any magic He's willing to work on this Creation of His through Abraham and no one else? Like EVER?


Which is more likely:

THE Creator of The Universe singling out one and only one human on our Timeline for a relationship to assist Him in His cosmic struggle against evil...

or
​

At a point in Time considered ancient, near the dawn of recorded history, a story-telling Arab lived a successful upper-middle class life in a land that's far away, rejecting the popular local gods of his Time in favor of The Voice in his head, and culminating in the title of 'Grampa' with the nightly entertainment of his multiplying spawn with stories of his struggles, joys, tragedies and triumphs in life?

​

 

[Foxfyre]

Still not sure why so many agree that the voices playing inside Abraham's head were indeed The Creator of The Universe (especially against the back-drop of a modern definition for 'Universe'), but oh well... suffice to say that for some, Abe remains, THE man.

​

We'll have to agree to disagree. If forced to ass-U-Me the Divine, I still favor the voice inside my own head for it.

Why should we question that Abraham was a man of God and called by God whether he was an actual historical figure or was symbolic of a people chosen by God? The entirety of the Old Testament is based on just such a concept as are those who became Christian patriarchs. It is the only concept that would make any sense to the ancient scribes who first wrote down the oral traditions that related the stories.

It's not a question of whether or not Abraham existed, or even whether or not it truly was God's voice in his head. The question is, 'what makes Abraham special?' Why would God possibly want to work any magic He's willing to work on this Creation of His through Abraham and no one else? Like EVER?


Which is more likely:

THE Creator of The Universe singling out one and only one human on our Timeline for a relationship to assist Him in His cosmic struggle against evil...

or
​

At a point in Time considered ancient, near the dawn of recorded history, a story-telling Arab lived a successful upper-middle class life in a land that's far away, rejecting the popular local gods of his Time in favor of The Voice in his head, and culminating in the title of 'Grampa' with the nightly entertainment of his multiplying spawn with stories of his struggles, joys, tragedies and triumphs in life?

​

Your question is: what made Abraham special?

Again working from the Scriptures, he is special because he was essentially the beginning of the story of "the chosen ones." It isn't that he himself did anything all that remarkable other than to take such a terrible risk in order to hear and obey God. He is considered the father of that teensy but so remarkable bit of humanity that we call the Jews. And it was him and his descendants who first settled in Canaan part of which is now the State of Israel. And it is why that tiny little country of Israel, about the size of the State of New Jersey, is so important to the Israelis now. Why Jerusalem, King David's capital city--King David directly descended from Abraham--in a time of glory for the Jews, is so important to the Israeli's now.

The Old Testament closed with the hope of the Messiah who would come. The Christian story begins with the Messiah has come and he was born of that same group of people who began with Abraham in that same land that God gave to Abraham and his children forever--a Messiah descended from Abraham and David who was not just the Savior of the Jews, but was God revealed to the whole world. Which is why it is often described as a JudeoChristian belief or faith.

As to why Abraham, the Scriptures are full of stories of God calling unlikely, imperfect people for His purposes of accomplishing great things. When you look around and see the profound difference and influence that Judaism and Christianity have had on the world, and all that came from one man's obedience to God when called?. . .it is difficult to fully comprehend that and, if one believes in God, not to believe God's hand has not been in all that.

That is why Abraham, the historical father of all, was/is special.

 

[yiostheoy]

The Torah - Penned by human hands and then preserved by human hands for the last 6,000 years.

The New Testament - Penned by human hands and then preserved by human hands for the last 2,000 years.

The Koran - Penned by human hands and preserved by human hands for the last 1,700 years.

The Books.​

Sacred words on paper describing and testifying to The God of Abraham.

Is it because the words in the stories about Abraham's God are connected to their origins across so much time?

What makes those words 'sacred'?​

Descriptions of a unique in history relationship between a mere human and The Creator. Literally starting with the written preservation of stories told 6,000 years ago among a large and growing family about their grandpa Abe and the tales he told.

And The Word was God.

But they're more than just words.... More because so many of the people who're trying to share this little world believe with all their hearts, souls and minds that Abraham truly was THE Man, his God rocks, and the wordsmiths who poured heart, soul and mind out over parchments, papyrus and clay to tell the 3 Ancient Tales of how to approach and win the heart of this God whom Abraham loved, had a connection to the Divine not seen since in mankind.

I don't know why.​

Really old thread, by the way !!

 

[yiostheoy]

Still not sure why so many agree that the voices playing inside Abraham's head were indeed The Creator of The Universe (especially against the back-drop of a modern definition for 'Universe'), but oh well... suffice to say that for some, Abe remains, THE man.

​

We'll have to agree to disagree. If forced to ass-U-Me the Divine, I still favor the voice inside my own head for it.

Why should we question that Abraham was a man of God and called by God whether he was an actual historical figure or was symbolic of a people chosen by God? The entirety of the Old Testament is based on just such a concept as are those who became Christian patriarchs. It is the only concept that would make any sense to the ancient scribes who first wrote down the oral traditions that related the stories.

It's not a question of whether or not Abraham existed, or even whether or not it truly was God's voice in his head. The question is, 'what makes Abraham special?' Why would God possibly want to work any magic He's willing to work on this Creation of His through Abraham and no one else? Like EVER?


Which is more likely:

THE Creator of The Universe singling out one and only one human on our Timeline for a relationship to assist Him in His cosmic struggle against evil...

or
​

At a point in Time considered ancient, near the dawn of recorded history, a story-telling Arab lived a successful upper-middle class life in a land that's far away, rejecting the popular local gods of his Time in favor of The Voice in his head, and culminating in the title of 'Grampa' with the nightly entertainment of his multiplying spawn with stories of his struggles, joys, tragedies and triumphs in life?

​

How do you spell B-U-M-P ?!

 

[yiostheoy]

I generally treat all of Genesis as mythology.

The rest of the Tenakh I treat as revised and corrupted narrative.

 

[Foxfyre]

The Torah - Penned by human hands and then preserved by human hands for the last 6,000 years.

The New Testament - Penned by human hands and then preserved by human hands for the last 2,000 years.

The Koran - Penned by human hands and preserved by human hands for the last 1,700 years.

The Books.​

Sacred words on paper describing and testifying to The God of Abraham.

Is it because the words in the stories about Abraham's God are connected to their origins across so much time?

What makes those words 'sacred'?​

Descriptions of a unique in history relationship between a mere human and The Creator. Literally starting with the written preservation of stories told 6,000 years ago among a large and growing family about their grandpa Abe and the tales he told.

And The Word was God.

But they're more than just words.... More because so many of the people who're trying to share this little world believe with all their hearts, souls and minds that Abraham truly was THE Man, his God rocks, and the wordsmiths who poured heart, soul and mind out over parchments, papyrus and clay to tell the 3 Ancient Tales of how to approach and win the heart of this God whom Abraham loved, had a connection to the Divine not seen since in mankind.

I don't know why.​

Really old thread, by the way !!

And your objection to continuing an interesting and thoughtful discussion from an old thread is. . . .?