It's The Books!

[Chuckt]

What makes those words 'sacred'?​

the short answer is: intrinsically they are not sacred ...just as all religious writing is not.
the belief in them gives the illusion of sacredness and that is the cause of the greatest and most destructive events in history.[/QUOTE]

Daws,

The meaning of sacred is:

connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration.

https://www.google.com/#q=definition+sacred

They have a religious purpose and or they are connected with God. That would make them sacred. You didn't specify why in your response other than that is what you think.

 

[daws101]

What makes those words 'sacred'?​

the short answer is: intrinsically they are not sacred ...just as all religious writing is not.
the belief in them gives the illusion of sacredness and that is the cause of the greatest and most destructive events in history.

Daws,

The meaning of sacred is:

connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration.

https://www.google.com/#q=definition+sacred

They have a religious purpose and or they are connected with God. That would make them sacred. You didn't specify why in your response other than that is what you think.[/QUOTE]no need to specify...there is no quantifiable objective evidence for or against the existence of god.
therefore the concept of sacredness is is man made.
intrinsicallyn·trin·sic [in-trin-sik, -zik] Show IPA
adjective
1.
belonging to a thing by its very nature:
those words like all words have no meaning until we give them one.
there is no proof that god made them that way..
you believe them to be sacred, so to YOU they are..

 

[turzovka]

I am constantly amazed at how ignorant people are of the history of the very religions they claim are vitally important to their lives.

Ironically, it is also ignorance of the faith that keeps so many more as unbelievers or uncaring.

I dare say the top poster’s remarks are a good example of that with his strawman premises.

So the Bible was written down by human hands. Oh, my!! Does the OP insist God do everything with lightning burning words into stone?

Also, AvgJoe, try not to get hung up that some religions got it wrong. No more wrong than atheists, agnostics and heathens. Just because Islam departed from Christianity brings no invalidation or confusion to Christianity.

What makes the words sacred you ask? The witness of the religion that follows in a myriad of ways over all centuries. Our faith is not blind… we keep insisting.

The good news: God is merciful --- immeasurably. Ignorance may be a partial defense for many.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Still not sure why so many agree that the voices playing inside Abraham's head were indeed The Creator of The Universe (especially against the back-drop of a modern definition for 'Universe'), but oh well... suffice to say that for some, Abe remains, THE man.

​

We'll have to agree to disagree. If forced to ass-U-Me the Divine, I still favor the voice inside my own head for it.

Why should we question that Abraham was a man of God and called by God whether he was an actual historical figure or was symbolic of a people chosen by God? The entirety of the Old Testament is based on just such a concept as are those who became Christian patriarchs. It is the only concept that would make any sense to the ancient scribes who first wrote down the oral traditions that related the stories.

Exactly! There is a LOT of world history and modern attitude wrapped up in The Torah, New Testament & Koran.


There's a lot riding on whether or not the voices in Abraham's were actually God or not.

I'm still not convinced... we ALL hear voices.

 

[AVG-JOE]

We can go forward with a lot of whys and other questions too, Joe. How did a relatively insignificant group of nomadic people attain such prominence in the world? No people in the history of the human race has been more hated, more persecuted, or more systematically exterminated than have the presumed descendants of Abraham, and yet they are still with us. And no single group of people in the history of the Earth has accomplished more for the benefit of humankind than as the remnants of those same people that make up a quarter of one percent of the world population.

Just some of the Jewish Nobel prize winners:
Chemistry (33 prize winners, 20% of world total, 30% of US total)
•Economics (29 prize winners, 41% of world total, 53% of US total)
•Literature (13 prize winners, 12% of world total, 27% of US total)
•Peace (9 prize winners, 9% of world total, 10% of US total)4
•Physics (50 prize winners, 26% of world total, 37% of US total)
•Physiology or Medicine (53 prize winners, 26% of world total, 39% of US total)
Also:
•Jewish Recipients of the Kyoto Prize (24% of recipients)
•Jewish Recipients of the Wolf Foundation Prize (33% of recipients)
•Jewish Recipients of the US National Medal of Science (38% of recipients)

It is not hard to understand why it is easy to believe that these remarkable gifted people are indeed chosen and ordained by God for some great purpose.

And also there was an even more dedicated and deliberate attempt to stamp out Christianity and destroy all its manuscripts for much of its first 300 years, and yet Christianity has thrived and expanded throughout the world and it's 'book' remains a top best seller decade after decade after decade.

I have to believe that God's hand is in that too.

Theirs is the God-story that survived our history. After writing it down, The Jews refrained from pushing their religion on folks, so when conquered, their conquerors let them keep their religion. And The WORD was God.

The ONLY thing that I can come up with to justify the attention that the 3 Books in question garner is the survivability of The Torah on which the other two are based.

 

[Chuckt]

There's a lot riding on whether or not the voices in Abraham's were actually God or not.

I'm still not convinced... we ALL hear voices.

Joe,

God visited Abraham in his tent. Abraham was called the friend of God and it was Abraham to whom God made a promise to.
Abraham had servants. Abraham was incredibly wealthy.
God blessed Abraham wherever he went.
Sarah also heard God.

Chuck

 

[Foxfyre]

We can go forward with a lot of whys and other questions too, Joe. How did a relatively insignificant group of nomadic people attain such prominence in the world? No people in the history of the human race has been more hated, more persecuted, or more systematically exterminated than have the presumed descendants of Abraham, and yet they are still with us. And no single group of people in the history of the Earth has accomplished more for the benefit of humankind than as the remnants of those same people that make up a quarter of one percent of the world population.

Just some of the Jewish Nobel prize winners:
Chemistry (33 prize winners, 20% of world total, 30% of US total)
•Economics (29 prize winners, 41% of world total, 53% of US total)
•Literature (13 prize winners, 12% of world total, 27% of US total)
•Peace (9 prize winners, 9% of world total, 10% of US total)4
•Physics (50 prize winners, 26% of world total, 37% of US total)
•Physiology or Medicine (53 prize winners, 26% of world total, 39% of US total)
Also:
•Jewish Recipients of the Kyoto Prize (24% of recipients)
•Jewish Recipients of the Wolf Foundation Prize (33% of recipients)
•Jewish Recipients of the US National Medal of Science (38% of recipients)

It is not hard to understand why it is easy to believe that these remarkable gifted people are indeed chosen and ordained by God for some great purpose.

And also there was an even more dedicated and deliberate attempt to stamp out Christianity and destroy all its manuscripts for much of its first 300 years, and yet Christianity has thrived and expanded throughout the world and it's 'book' remains a top best seller decade after decade after decade.

I have to believe that God's hand is in that too.

Theirs is the God-story that survived our history. After writing it down, The Jews refrained from pushing their religion on folks, so when conquered, their conquerors let them keep their religion. And The WORD was God.

The ONLY thing that I can come up with to justify the attention that the 3 Books in question garner is the survivability of The Torah on which the other two are based.

Believing Jews stick to their roots and traditions that have developed over the millenia and embrace and are immortalized in the Tanakh, similar to the Christian Old Testament, comprised of the Torah (Hebrew: 'Law'), Nevi'im ('Prophets') and Ketuvim ('Writings') canonized (closed) by the Jewish elders prior to First Century A.D.

Most believing Christians see their faith and traditions as simply a continuation of God's work and purpose experienced by the Jews and as revealed in the Bible most use. The Chrsitian Bible contains the books of the Old Testament, similar to the Jewish Tanakh, and the books of the New Testament that have never been formally canonized but became pretty well set in stone through common usage and acceptance.

Some traditions--for instance Roman Catholics and Anglicans/Episcopalians--include a separate section called the Apocrypha in their most commonly used Bibles. This is a collection of writings that have been hotly debated by theologians over the centuries and there was never a firm agreement as to their purity and/or authenticity, but they add some teachings and elements that some felt should not be excluded. They therefore are considered separately. They are not included in the versions of the Bibles used by most Protestants.

The Islamic Quran or Koran is purported to be revelation given to the prophet Mohammed over roughly two decades and is the 'final revelation' given by Allah to humankind. It contains fragments of both Judaism and Christianity and is seen by Muslims as the restoration of the true religion as commanded by Allah.

So the Torah as been around by far the longest and is respected and studied by Christians, and, even though some concepts are considered in the Quran, is not respected or honored by Islam. Modern Jews mostly just want to be left alone to be who they are in peace and don't care whatever religion others practice.

Modern Christians are the people most likely to go forth to teach the gospel, believing that it will bless those who hear and believe. But whether are not people believe, it is mostly Christians who work among the world's poorest citizens to relieve their suffering and improve the conditions under which they live. And though there are concepts of Christianity also contained in the Quran, Muslims do not respect the Bible or consider it a holy book.

Islam gains converts mostly by promises of reward or punishment. Both Christians and Jews are regarded as infidels by modern Islam and militant Islamic extremists intend to wipe the Earth clean of both so that Allah will reign supreme over the Earth.

The believing Jew believes Christians put their faith in a fiction that the Messiah has come; the believing Christian believes the Jew needs to believe in that same Messiah. But they get along together quite peacefully pretty much everywhere these days. And neither give Islam any grief when Islam does its own thing and allows everybody else to do theirs.

 

[AVG-JOE]

There's a lot riding on whether or not the voices in Abraham's were actually God or not.

I'm still not convinced... we ALL hear voices.

Joe,

God visited Abraham in his tent. Abraham was called the friend of God and it was Abraham to whom God made a promise to.
Abraham had servants. Abraham was incredibly wealthy.
God blessed Abraham wherever he went.
Sarah also heard God.

Chuck

According to WHOM, exactly?

( It's in The Books )​

 

[AVG-JOE]

It's all just stories that are still up to each and every one of us to validate in the privacy of our own heart, soul & mind.

I'm SO not there...

 

[AVG-JOE]

We can go forward with a lot of whys and other questions too, Joe. How did a relatively insignificant group of nomadic people attain such prominence in the world? No people in the history of the human race has been more hated, more persecuted, or more systematically exterminated than have the presumed descendants of Abraham, and yet they are still with us. And no single group of people in the history of the Earth has accomplished more for the benefit of humankind than as the remnants of those same people that make up a quarter of one percent of the world population.

Just some of the Jewish Nobel prize winners:
Chemistry (33 prize winners, 20% of world total, 30% of US total)
•Economics (29 prize winners, 41% of world total, 53% of US total)
•Literature (13 prize winners, 12% of world total, 27% of US total)
•Peace (9 prize winners, 9% of world total, 10% of US total)4
•Physics (50 prize winners, 26% of world total, 37% of US total)
•Physiology or Medicine (53 prize winners, 26% of world total, 39% of US total)
Also:
•Jewish Recipients of the Kyoto Prize (24% of recipients)
•Jewish Recipients of the Wolf Foundation Prize (33% of recipients)
•Jewish Recipients of the US National Medal of Science (38% of recipients)

It is not hard to understand why it is easy to believe that these remarkable gifted people are indeed chosen and ordained by God for some great purpose.

And also there was an even more dedicated and deliberate attempt to stamp out Christianity and destroy all its manuscripts for much of its first 300 years, and yet Christianity has thrived and expanded throughout the world and it's 'book' remains a top best seller decade after decade after decade.

I have to believe that God's hand is in that too.

Theirs is the God-story that survived our history. After writing it down, The Jews refrained from pushing their religion on folks, so when conquered, their conquerors let them keep their religion. And The WORD was God.

The ONLY thing that I can come up with to justify the attention that the 3 Books in question garner is the survivability of The Torah on which the other two are based.

Believing Jews stick to their roots and traditions that have developed over the millenia and embrace and are immortalized in the Tanakh, similar to the Christian Old Testament, comprised of the Torah (Hebrew: 'Law'), Nevi'im ('Prophets') and Ketuvim ('Writings') canonized (closed) by the Jewish elders prior to First Century A.D.

Most believing Christians see their faith and traditions as simply a continuation of God's work and purpose experienced by the Jews and as revealed in the Bible most use. The Chrsitian Bible contains the books of the Old Testament, similar to the Jewish Tanakh, and the books of the New Testament that have never been formally canonized but became pretty well set in stone through common usage and acceptance.

Some traditions--for instance Roman Catholics and Anglicans/Episcopalians--include a separate section called the Apocrypha in their most commonly used Bibles. This is a collection of writings that have been hotly debated by theologians over the centuries and there was never a firm agreement as to their purity and/or authenticity, but they add some teachings and elements that some felt should not be excluded. They therefore are considered separately. They are not included in the versions of the Bibles used by most Protestants.

The Islamic Quran or Koran is purported to be revelation given to the prophet Mohammed over roughly two decades and is the 'final revelation' given by Allah to humankind. It contains fragments of both Judaism and Christianity and is seen by Muslims as the restoration of the true religion as commanded by Allah.

So the Torah as been around by far the longest and is respected and studied by Christians, and, even though some concepts are considered in the Quran, is not respected or honored by Islam. Modern Jews mostly just want to be left alone to be who they are in peace and don't care whatever religion others practice.

Modern Christians are the people most likely to go forth to teach the gospel, believing that it will bless those who hear and believe. But whether are not people believe, it is mostly Christians who work among the world's poorest citizens to relieve their suffering and improve the conditions under which they live. And though there are concepts of Christianity also contained in the Quran, Muslims do not respect the Bible or consider it a holy book.

Islam gains converts mostly by promises of reward or punishment. Both Christians and Jews are regarded as infidels by modern Islam and militant Islamic extremists intend to wipe the Earth clean of both so that Allah will reign supreme over the Earth.

The believing Jew believes Christians put their faith in a fiction that the Messiah has come; the believing Christian believes the Jew needs to believe in that same Messiah. But they get along together quite peacefully pretty much everywhere these days. And neither give Islam any grief when Islam does its own thing and allows everybody else to do theirs.

You do a great job of explaining what's going on Miss Foxfyre...

I still wanna know why?

 

[Chuckt]

According to WHOM, exactly?

( It's in The Books )​

40 different authors who didn't all know each other.

Martyrs who died and suffered for this book.

When they were nailing them on the crosses, did you ever think that maybe they would recant and say it wasn't worth dying for a lie? Some of them were crucified near the ground so it wouldn't be uncommon for animals to come by and eat them while they were on the cross.

500 witnesses that saw the resurrection. Mass hypnosis that they all saw the same thing? Right...(sarcasm here).

There are prophecies that came true. Jesus filled more than eight but it would be impossible for one person to fill eight according to probability.

The Bible is accurate in archaeology and history.

Changed lives throughout history.

I believe it.

 

[Chuckt]

You do a great job of explaining what's going on Miss Foxfyre...

I still wanna know why?

It is the invisible hand of God whom you don't believe in. That is why. That is the why.

 

[Ropey]

You do a great job of explaining what's going on Miss Foxfyre...

I still wanna know why?

Me too. You think you're alone? Most want to know why.

 

[Foxfyre]

Theirs is the God-story that survived our history. After writing it down, The Jews refrained from pushing their religion on folks, so when conquered, their conquerors let them keep their religion. And The WORD was God.

The ONLY thing that I can come up with to justify the attention that the 3 Books in question garner is the survivability of The Torah on which the other two are based.

Believing Jews stick to their roots and traditions that have developed over the millenia and embrace and are immortalized in the Tanakh, similar to the Christian Old Testament, comprised of the Torah (Hebrew: 'Law'), Nevi'im ('Prophets') and Ketuvim ('Writings') canonized (closed) by the Jewish elders prior to First Century A.D.

Most believing Christians see their faith and traditions as simply a continuation of God's work and purpose experienced by the Jews and as revealed in the Bible most use. The Chrsitian Bible contains the books of the Old Testament, similar to the Jewish Tanakh, and the books of the New Testament that have never been formally canonized but became pretty well set in stone through common usage and acceptance.

Some traditions--for instance Roman Catholics and Anglicans/Episcopalians--include a separate section called the Apocrypha in their most commonly used Bibles. This is a collection of writings that have been hotly debated by theologians over the centuries and there was never a firm agreement as to their purity and/or authenticity, but they add some teachings and elements that some felt should not be excluded. They therefore are considered separately. They are not included in the versions of the Bibles used by most Protestants.

The Islamic Quran or Koran is purported to be revelation given to the prophet Mohammed over roughly two decades and is the 'final revelation' given by Allah to humankind. It contains fragments of both Judaism and Christianity and is seen by Muslims as the restoration of the true religion as commanded by Allah.

So the Torah as been around by far the longest and is respected and studied by Christians, and, even though some concepts are considered in the Quran, is not respected or honored by Islam. Modern Jews mostly just want to be left alone to be who they are in peace and don't care whatever religion others practice.

Modern Christians are the people most likely to go forth to teach the gospel, believing that it will bless those who hear and believe. But whether are not people believe, it is mostly Christians who work among the world's poorest citizens to relieve their suffering and improve the conditions under which they live. And though there are concepts of Christianity also contained in the Quran, Muslims do not respect the Bible or consider it a holy book.

Islam gains converts mostly by promises of reward or punishment. Both Christians and Jews are regarded as infidels by modern Islam and militant Islamic extremists intend to wipe the Earth clean of both so that Allah will reign supreme over the Earth.

The believing Jew believes Christians put their faith in a fiction that the Messiah has come; the believing Christian believes the Jew needs to believe in that same Messiah. But they get along together quite peacefully pretty much everywhere these days. And neither give Islam any grief when Islam does its own thing and allows everybody else to do theirs.

You do a great job of explaining what's going on Miss Foxfyre...

I still wanna know why?

Why the books? Or why I explain it?

 

[Ropey]

Believing Jews stick to their roots and traditions that have developed over the millenia and embrace and are immortalized in the Tanakh, similar to the Christian Old Testament, comprised of the Torah (Hebrew: 'Law'), Nevi'im ('Prophets') and Ketuvim ('Writings') canonized (closed) by the Jewish elders prior to First Century A.D.

Most believing Christians see their faith and traditions as simply a continuation of God's work and purpose experienced by the Jews and as revealed in the Bible most use. The Chrsitian Bible contains the books of the Old Testament, similar to the Jewish Tanakh, and the books of the New Testament that have never been formally canonized but became pretty well set in stone through common usage and acceptance.

Some traditions--for instance Roman Catholics and Anglicans/Episcopalians--include a separate section called the Apocrypha in their most commonly used Bibles. This is a collection of writings that have been hotly debated by theologians over the centuries and there was never a firm agreement as to their purity and/or authenticity, but they add some teachings and elements that some felt should not be excluded. They therefore are considered separately. They are not included in the versions of the Bibles used by most Protestants.

The Islamic Quran or Koran is purported to be revelation given to the prophet Mohammed over roughly two decades and is the 'final revelation' given by Allah to humankind. It contains fragments of both Judaism and Christianity and is seen by Muslims as the restoration of the true religion as commanded by Allah.

So the Torah as been around by far the longest and is respected and studied by Christians, and, even though some concepts are considered in the Quran, is not respected or honored by Islam. Modern Jews mostly just want to be left alone to be who they are in peace and don't care whatever religion others practice.

Modern Christians are the people most likely to go forth to teach the gospel, believing that it will bless those who hear and believe. But whether are not people believe, it is mostly Christians who work among the world's poorest citizens to relieve their suffering and improve the conditions under which they live. And though there are concepts of Christianity also contained in the Quran, Muslims do not respect the Bible or consider it a holy book.

Islam gains converts mostly by promises of reward or punishment. Both Christians and Jews are regarded as infidels by modern Islam and militant Islamic extremists intend to wipe the Earth clean of both so that Allah will reign supreme over the Earth.

The believing Jew believes Christians put their faith in a fiction that the Messiah has come; the believing Christian believes the Jew needs to believe in that same Messiah. But they get along together quite peacefully pretty much everywhere these days. And neither give Islam any grief when Islam does its own thing and allows everybody else to do theirs.

You do a great job of explaining what's going on Miss Foxfyre...

I still wanna know why?

Why the books? Or why I explain it?

Why believe?

 

[Barb]

The Torah - Penned by human hands and then preserved by human hands for the last 6,000 years.

The New Testament - Penned by human hands and then preserved by human hands for the last 2,000 years.

The Koran - Penned by human hands and preserved by human hands for the last 1,700 years.

The Books.​

Sacred words on paper describing and testifying to The God of Abraham.


Is it because the words in the stories about Abraham's God are connected to their origins across so much time?

What makes those words 'sacred'?​

Descriptions of a unique in history relationship between a mere Monkey and The Creator. Literally starting with the written preservation of stories told 6,000 years ago among a large and growing family about their grandpa Abe and the tales he told.


And The Word was God.



But they're more than just words.... More because so many of the people who're trying to share this little world believe with all their hearts, souls and minds that Abraham truly was THE Man, his God rocks, and the wordsmiths who poured heart, soul and mind out over parchments, papyrus and clay to tell the 3 Ancient Tales of how to approach and win the heart of this God whom Abraham loved, had a connection to the Divine not seen since in mankind.

I don't know why.​

Goddesses, Whores, Wives, and Slaves: Women in Classical Antiquity - Sarah Pomeroy - Google Books

Once upon a time,
before monolithic and paternal religion,
there were female faces to the divine.
Some were terrifying,

others benign.

The men, though,
the men,
wanted women in line,
and the female and her history were no longer divine.

Heretics

The supreme being
in the image of men
celebrated the rooster
no longer the hen.

Which was a little something (maybe the last thing) those men could ALL agree on.

As a female,
divine by right,
rather than rite,
I most strenuously reject,

and object.

we will NOT

 

[Barb]

I am constantly amazed at how ignorant people are of the history of the very religions they claim are vitally important to their lives.

Ironically, it is also ignorance of the faith that keeps so many more as unbelievers or uncaring.

I dare say the top poster’s remarks are a good example of that with his strawman premises.

So the Bible was written down by human hands. Oh, my!! Does the OP insist God do everything with lightning burning words into stone?

Also, AvgJoe, try not to get hung up that some religions got it wrong. No more wrong than atheists, agnostics and heathens. Just because Islam departed from Christianity brings no invalidation or confusion to Christianity.

What makes the words sacred you ask? The witness of the religion that follows in a myriad of ways over all centuries. Our faith is not blind… we keep insisting.

The good news: God is merciful --- immeasurably. Ignorance may be a partial defense for many.

What makes the words sacred you ask? The witness of the religion that follows in a myriad of ways over all centuries.

Do you know how many religions boast a virgin birth, for just one example of similarity (or plagiarism)? Hint: they are PRE Christianity, not POST.

 

[Foxfyre]

You do a great job of explaining what's going on Miss Foxfyre...

I still wanna know why?

Why the books? Or why I explain it?

Why believe?

I believe not because of what is contained in the 'Book' but because I have no other choice. What one experiences, one believes.

My experience is that the Spirit can inform us through the pages of "the Book" and in other ways too. My belief is that much scripture has been written since "the Book" was effectively closed to further additions, because I believe that God continues to communicate with the people and some are led to write down their best understanding of that communication. I don't thnk any of the more recent scripture will ever make it into 'the Book' and won't be viewed as holy script, but every now and then, I know that it is God's word to my ear just the same.

I am drawn--perhaps even driven--to study and teach 'the Book' however and it is never boring to me. I don't expect to be done with learning, researching, and expanding my knowledge of what it can teach us in my lifetime.

 

[Ropey]

[MENTION=9429]AVG-JOE[/MENTION]

Why not believe?

 

[turzovka]

Do you know how many religions boast a virgin birth, for just one example of similarity (or plagiarism)? Hint: they are PRE Christianity, not POST.

So what?

There is truth. And I maintain it can be known.

10 religions claim to have the one true God and atheism claims there is none. Someone is right, and the other 10 are wrong. I do not care what the other 9 religions claim or what atheism claims. If we are right they are all wrong. And I am sure Jesus is right.