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Believing Jews stick to their roots and traditions that have developed over the millenia and embrace and are immortalized in the Tanakh, similar to the Christian Old Testament, comprised of the Torah (Hebrew: 'Law'), Nevi'im ('Prophets') and Ketuvim ('Writings') canonized (closed) by the Jewish elders prior to First Century A.D.
Most believing Christians see their faith and traditions as simply a continuation of God's work and purpose experienced by the Jews and as revealed in the Bible most use. The Chrsitian Bible contains the books of the Old Testament, similar to the Jewish Tanakh, and the books of the New Testament that have never been formally canonized but became pretty well set in stone through common usage and acceptance.
Some traditions--for instance Roman Catholics and Anglicans/Episcopalians--include a separate section called the Apocrypha in their most commonly used Bibles. This is a collection of writings that have been hotly debated by theologians over the centuries and there was never a firm agreement as to their purity and/or authenticity, but they add some teachings and elements that some felt should not be excluded. They therefore are considered separately. They are not included in the versions of the Bibles used by most Protestants.
The Islamic Quran or Koran is purported to be revelation given to the prophet Mohammed over roughly two decades and is the 'final revelation' given by Allah to humankind. It contains fragments of both Judaism and Christianity and is seen by Muslims as the restoration of the true religion as commanded by Allah.
So the Torah as been around by far the longest and is respected and studied by Christians, and, even though some concepts are considered in the Quran, is not respected or honored by Islam. Modern Jews mostly just want to be left alone to be who they are in peace and don't care whatever religion others practice.
Modern Christians are the people most likely to go forth to teach the gospel, believing that it will bless those who hear and believe. But whether are not people believe, it is mostly Christians who work among the world's poorest citizens to relieve their suffering and improve the conditions under which they live. And though there are concepts of Christianity also contained in the Quran, Muslims do not respect the Bible or consider it a holy book.
Islam gains converts mostly by promises of reward or punishment. Both Christians and Jews are regarded as infidels by modern Islam and militant Islamic extremists intend to wipe the Earth clean of both so that Allah will reign supreme over the Earth.
The believing Jew believes Christians put their faith in a fiction that the Messiah has come; the believing Christian believes the Jew needs to believe in that same Messiah. But they get along together quite peacefully pretty much everywhere these days. And neither give Islam any grief when Islam does its own thing and allows everybody else to do theirs.
You do a great job of explaining what's going on Miss Foxfyre...
I still wanna know why?
Why the books? Or why I explain it?
[MENTION=9429]AVG-JOE[/MENTION]
Why not believe?
You do a great job of explaining what's going on Miss Foxfyre...
I still wanna know why?
Why the books? Or why I explain it?
Why is Abraham so special when we ALL hear voices? Why would The Creator single out such an ordinary creature? Why would God stop all verifiable communication with His creation after his relationship with Abe?
Why do so many bet not only their next life on the Ancient Stories of Abraham and his God, but also much of their current lives?
Why?
belief is no proof !According to WHOM, exactly?
( It's in The Books)
40 different authors who didn't all know each other.
Martyrs who died and suffered for this book.
When they were nailing them on the crosses, did you ever think that maybe they would recant and say it wasn't worth dying for a lie? Some of them were crucified near the ground so it wouldn't be uncommon for animals to come by and eat them while they were on the cross.
500 witnesses that saw the resurrection. Mass hypnosis that they all saw the same thing? Right...(sarcasm here).
There are prophecies that came true. Jesus filled more than eight but it would be impossible for one person to fill eight according to probability.
The Bible is accurate in archaeology and history.
Changed lives throughout history.
I believe it.
You do a great job of explaining what's going on Miss Foxfyre...
I still wanna know why?
Why the books? Or why I explain it?
Why is Abraham so special when we ALL hear voices? Why would The Creator single out such an ordinary creature? Why would God stop all verifiable communication with His creation after his relationship with Abe?
Why do so many bet not only their next life on the Ancient Stories of Abraham and his God, but also much of their current lives?
Why?
what do you mean by natural means?Why the books? Or why I explain it?
Why is Abraham so special when we ALL hear voices? Why would The Creator single out such an ordinary creature? Why would God stop all verifiable communication with His creation after his relationship with Abe?
Why do so many bet not only their next life on the Ancient Stories of Abraham and his God, but also much of their current lives?
Why?
why if one does not read the Bible are there no natural means to reference its text ?
.
what do you mean by natural means?Why is Abraham so special when we ALL hear voices? Why would The Creator single out such an ordinary creature? Why would God stop all verifiable communication with His creation after his relationship with Abe?
Why do so many bet not only their next life on the Ancient Stories of Abraham and his God, but also much of their current lives?
Why?
why if one does not read the Bible are there no natural means to reference its text ?
.
Why the books? Or why I explain it?
Why is Abraham so special when we ALL hear voices? Why would The Creator single out such an ordinary creature? Why would God stop all verifiable communication with His creation after his relationship with Abe?
Why do so many bet not only their next life on the Ancient Stories of Abraham and his God, but also much of their current lives?
Why?
The ancient Hebrew historian and story teller gave much more anthropological characteristics to YHWH/God than did those of the latest writings. So 'voices' are a relative thing to the ancient writers who had a limited number of words to use to illustrate communications of God to man. The modern prophet or messenger might use such a term as "The Spirit convicted me that. . . ." or "God laid upon my heart. . . ." instead of saying "God spoke to me."
In the first Chapter of Genesis, which is believed to be one of the most recent manuscripts included in the "Old Testament" text, we see ". . . .God said. . . ." numerous times but there is nothing to determine who, if anybody, heard this. "God said. . ." was the ancient way to express that God made it happen--it was by God's hand or order--everything that has ever been, is, or will ever be is created or called into being by God.
In the second Chapter of Genesis, wihich is believe to be one of the oldest manuscripts included in the "Old Testament", we have a much more personal God speaking directly to Adam. Now instead of a doctrinal statement that God is the Creator of all, we have a discourse on how or why things are the way they are. A completely different theological emphasis.
Abraham isn't special because he heard voices. Abraham is special because he is the one God chose to father a great people, a chosen people, designated by God for a great purpose. He is special because it was with him that God made his covenant. Even though the geneologies trace all the way back to Adam, it was Abraham who was the designated patriarch, the father of the Jewish people and would bring forth the root of Jesse, Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah.
Why is Abraham so special when we ALL hear voices? Why would The Creator single out such an ordinary creature? Why would God stop all verifiable communication with His creation after his relationship with Abe?
Why do so many bet not only their next life on the Ancient Stories of Abraham and his God, but also much of their current lives?
Why?
The ancient Hebrew historian and story teller gave much more anthropological characteristics to YHWH/God than did those of the latest writings. So 'voices' are a relative thing to the ancient writers who had a limited number of words to use to illustrate communications of God to man. The modern prophet or messenger might use such a term as "The Spirit convicted me that. . . ." or "God laid upon my heart. . . ." instead of saying "God spoke to me."
In the first Chapter of Genesis, which is believed to be one of the most recent manuscripts included in the "Old Testament" text, we see ". . . .God said. . . ." numerous times but there is nothing to determine who, if anybody, heard this. "God said. . ." was the ancient way to express that God made it happen--it was by God's hand or order--everything that has ever been, is, or will ever be is created or called into being by God.
In the second Chapter of Genesis, wihich is believe to be one of the oldest manuscripts included in the "Old Testament", we have a much more personal God speaking directly to Adam. Now instead of a doctrinal statement that God is the Creator of all, we have a discourse on how or why things are the way they are. A completely different theological emphasis.
Abraham isn't special because he heard voices. Abraham is special because he is the one God chose to father a great people, a chosen people, designated by God for a great purpose. He is special because it was with him that God made his covenant. Even though the geneologies trace all the way back to Adam, it was Abraham who was the designated patriarch, the father of the Jewish people and would bring forth the root of Jesse, Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah.
Do you believe that Abraham saw things best described as 'other worldly'?
Do you think Abraham and The Creator had a true face-to-face with witnesses?
I don't discount it. I wasn't there. None of us were. Hard to swallow though.
Abraham isn't special because he heard voices. Abraham is special because he is the one God chose to father a great people, a chosen people, designated by God for a great purpose. He is special because it was with him that God made his covenant. Even though the geneologies trace all the way back to Adam, it was Abraham who was the designated patriarch, the father of the Jewish people and would bring forth the root of Jesse, Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah.
Abraham isn't special because he heard voices. Abraham is special because he is the one God chose to father a great people, a chosen people, designated by God for a great purpose. He is special because it was with him that God made his covenant. Even though the geneologies trace all the way back to Adam, it was Abraham who was the designated patriarch, the father of the Jewish people and would bring forth the root of Jesse, Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah.
Why Him? Why did God choose Abraham?
And what's so special about The Jews beyond having the oldest written documents that organize a people in to a community?
They, nor the gentile followers of Abraham's God via the New Testament and Koran, have proven to be any less political and conniving than the rest of The Monkeys...
With the exceptions of having THE longest written history in History, and the mess that being a community within a community that went savage in 1930's Europe, the Jews are not necessarily noteworthy, especially given the parameters of being a people "Chosen by God".
I'm just not seeing the modern marketability of this ancient God of Abraham.
Especially when the three communities who claim to represent Him are squabbling so bloody for His attention.
The ancient Hebrew historian and story teller gave much more anthropological characteristics to YHWH/God than did those of the latest writings. So 'voices' are a relative thing to the ancient writers who had a limited number of words to use to illustrate communications of God to man. The modern prophet or messenger might use such a term as "The Spirit convicted me that. . . ." or "God laid upon my heart. . . ." instead of saying "God spoke to me."
In the first Chapter of Genesis, which is believed to be one of the most recent manuscripts included in the "Old Testament" text, we see ". . . .God said. . . ." numerous times but there is nothing to determine who, if anybody, heard this. "God said. . ." was the ancient way to express that God made it happen--it was by God's hand or order--everything that has ever been, is, or will ever be is created or called into being by God.
In the second Chapter of Genesis, wihich is believe to be one of the oldest manuscripts included in the "Old Testament", we have a much more personal God speaking directly to Adam. Now instead of a doctrinal statement that God is the Creator of all, we have a discourse on how or why things are the way they are. A completely different theological emphasis.
Abraham isn't special because he heard voices. Abraham is special because he is the one God chose to father a great people, a chosen people, designated by God for a great purpose. He is special because it was with him that God made his covenant. Even though the geneologies trace all the way back to Adam, it was Abraham who was the designated patriarch, the father of the Jewish people and would bring forth the root of Jesse, Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah.
Do you believe that Abraham saw things best described as 'other worldly'?
Do you think Abraham and The Creator had a true face-to-face with witnesses?
I don't discount it. I wasn't there. None of us were. Hard to swallow though.
God himsef is 'other worldly' so yes, I believe it very possible for Abraham to have had an 'other worldly' experience. I haven't visited those passages in awhile, but I don't recall a 'face to face' meeting between God and Abraham. But like all others God called in the ancient texts, "God said. . . ." and Abraham obeyed. The ancients recorded and passed down their stories via an excellent oral tradition and they knew them so much by heart, a lot of detail was left out when the stories were written down. The scribes felt no need to explain exactly HOW all that came to pass.
I recently read a novel in which the author incorporated a lot of modern imagery, lines from movies, lyrics from songs, that are familiar to us all living here and now, and he felt no impulse to explain the source of any of them. He knew his readers would fill in the blanks. Somebody reading the story two thousand years from now might wish for more explanation.
So I believe it was with the Old Testament story tellers when they finally wrote down the stories after they had been passed down through generations via oral tradition.
I am of the school that the scriptures bless the reader and hearer whether the story is 100% accurate as written - or - is based on a real life person with some embellishment by the historians--think of our own legends of Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone--or whether the stories are simply allegory to explain why things are the way they are. In my heart of heart I think there likely was an Abraham, but his being real is not essential to my faith.
Abraham isn't special because he heard voices. Abraham is special because he is the one God chose to father a great people, a chosen people, designated by God for a great purpose. He is special because it was with him that God made his covenant. Even though the geneologies trace all the way back to Adam, it was Abraham who was the designated patriarch, the father of the Jewish people and would bring forth the root of Jesse, Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah.
Why Him? Why did God choose Abraham?
And what's so special about The Jews beyond having the oldest written documents that organize a people in to a community?
They, nor the gentile followers of Abraham's God via the New Testament and Koran, have proven to be any less political and conniving than the rest of The Monkeys...
With the exceptions of having THE longest written history in History, and the mess that being a community within a community that went savage in 1930's Europe, the Jews are not necessarily noteworthy, especially given the parameters of being a people "Chosen by God".
I'm just not seeing the modern marketability of this ancient God of Abraham.
Especially when the three communities who claim to represent Him are squabbling so bloody for His attention.
I am of the school that the scriptures bless the reader and hearer whether the story is 100% accurate as written - or - is based on a real life person with some embellishment by the historians--think of our own legends of Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone--or whether the stories are simply allegory to explain why things are the way they are. In my heart of heart I think there likely was an Abraham, but his being real is not essential to my faith.
Abraham isn't special because he heard voices. Abraham is special because he is the one God chose to father a great people, a chosen people, designated by God for a great purpose. He is special because it was with him that God made his covenant. Even though the geneologies trace all the way back to Adam, it was Abraham who was the designated patriarch, the father of the Jewish people and would bring forth the root of Jesse, Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah.
Why Him? Why did God choose Abraham?
And what's so special about The Jews beyond having the oldest written documents that organize a people in to a community?
They, nor the gentile followers of Abraham's God via the New Testament and Koran, have proven to be any less political and conniving than the rest of The Monkeys...
With the exceptions of having THE longest written history in History, and the mess that being a community within a community that went savage in 1930's Europe, the Jews are not necessarily noteworthy, especially given the parameters of being a people "Chosen by God".
I'm just not seeing the modern marketability of this ancient God of Abraham.
Especially when the three communities who claim to represent Him are squabbling so bloody for His attention.
I don't know. Why did God choose Joseph? Or Moses? Or Jonah? Or moving on, why the Apostle Paul, a fanatical extremist Zionist Pharasaic Jew determined to kill every Jew who even thought about following the Jesus religion? Paul had certain credentials that served him well being both respected Jew AND a Roman citizen, but surely there were more amicable, attractive, and capable people to call?
I long ago gave up trying to second guess why God does anything. I came to the point I finally gave up and admitted he was much more powerful and a whole lot smarter than I was. And it was pretty much useless trying to take his place and/or tell him how things ought to be done.
And I don't know whether I would obey and give up everything if God told me to. I would like to think that I would, but since it hasn't happened, I haven't had to find out. I will say, at those times God has called me to do something, he sure doesn't let a body off the hook.
I am of the school that the scriptures bless the reader and hearer whether the story is 100% accurate as written - or - is based on a real life person with some embellishment by the historians--think of our own legends of Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone--or whether the stories are simply allegory to explain why things are the way they are. In my heart of heart I think there likely was an Abraham, but his being real is not essential to my faith.
Maybe that's a key... I'm kind of of the school that 'Scripture' is the Sacred, infallible Word of God, and what made it through history is exactly what's supposed to be there today.
At least that's what more than one preacher taught me. I tend to agree... What kind of God would give His Children Books that describe Him and how to have an Everlasting Relationship with Him that were 'pretty close to accurate'?
Why Him? Why did God choose Abraham?
And what's so special about The Jews beyond having the oldest written documents that organize a people in to a community?
They, nor the gentile followers of Abraham's God via the New Testament and Koran, have proven to be any less political and conniving than the rest of The Monkeys...
With the exceptions of having THE longest written history in History, and the mess that being a community within a community that went savage in 1930's Europe, the Jews are not necessarily noteworthy, especially given the parameters of being a people "Chosen by God".
I'm just not seeing the modern marketability of this ancient God of Abraham.
Especially when the three communities who claim to represent Him are squabbling so bloody for His attention.
I don't know. Why did God choose Joseph? Or Moses? Or Jonah? Or moving on, why the Apostle Paul, a fanatical extremist Zionist Pharasaic Jew determined to kill every Jew who even thought about following the Jesus religion? Paul had certain credentials that served him well being both respected Jew AND a Roman citizen, but surely there were more amicable, attractive, and capable people to call?
I long ago gave up trying to second guess why God does anything. I came to the point I finally gave up and admitted he was much more powerful and a whole lot smarter than I was. And it was pretty much useless trying to take his place and/or tell him how things ought to be done.
And I don't know whether I would obey and give up everything if God told me to. I would like to think that I would, but since it hasn't happened, I haven't had to find out. I will say, at those times God has called me to do something, he sure doesn't let a body off the hook.
A finer set of queries I could not have posed myself.
Why?
Why did the Romans so successfully take the church political after year 300?
God had to be going
Why did God pick the God-Forsaken chunk of dirt that he did for His Chosen Ones?
Why did God not hear the cries of the 15th - 17th Century Slaves and indigenous people displaced and brutalized in the name of Profit by His representative The Pope, who took it upon himself to divide the planet among his friends, once it was roughly mapped?
Why?
he got all that from an hallucination ?I don't know. Why did God choose Joseph? Or Moses? Or Jonah? Or moving on, why the Apostle Paul, a fanatical extremist Zionist Pharasaic Jew determined to kill every Jew who even thought about following the Jesus religion? Paul had certain credentials that served him well being both respected Jew AND a Roman citizen, but surely there were more amicable, attractive, and capable people to call?
I long ago gave up trying to second guess why God does anything. I came to the point I finally gave up and admitted he was much more powerful and a whole lot smarter than I was. And it was pretty much useless trying to take his place and/or tell him how things ought to be done.
And I don't know whether I would obey and give up everything if God told me to. I would like to think that I would, but since it hasn't happened, I haven't had to find out. I will say, at those times God has called me to do something, he sure doesn't let a body off the hook.
A finer set of queries I could not have posed myself.
Why?
Why did the Romans so successfully take the church political after year 300?
God had to be going
Why did God pick the God-Forsaken chunk of dirt that he did for His Chosen Ones?
Why did God not hear the cries of the 15th - 17th Century Slaves and indigenous people displaced and brutalized in the name of Profit by His representative The Pope, who took it upon himself to divide the planet among his friends, once it was roughly mapped?
Why?
Constantine embraced Christianity in the fourth century because he was having a hell of a time managing a quarreling and diverse Roman Empire with barbarians at the gates on several fronts. And he recognized the superior organizational skills the Christians Church had developed and decided to utilize that with their help. (He also had a vision that encouraged this but that is more complicated than we need to go into.) And that fortuous turn of events (for the Church) gave it favored status and ability to spread throughout the Roman Empire pretty well unhindered.
God's hand was in all that? Of course I think so.
