Josh Duggar And The Message Of Forgiveness

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

You are well intended but incorrect. Forgiveness and salvation are granted to the sinner immediately, and then the new regenerate undergoes a process of sanctification. "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us," (Romans 5:8) is an important theological point, that salvation was not merited by our actions, but rather vouchsafed while we were in our wretched state. In fact, it cannot be understated that the initiative in the salvation process belongs to God alone: "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he would be Firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined He also called, and these whom He called He also justified, and these whom He justified, he also glorified." (Romans 8:29,30). This "golden chain of salvation" as some refer to it posits God as the "author and finisher of our faith". (Hebrews 12:2)

A response on our part is certainly required, to commit to a new way of living, and to act out our faith with good works, a requisite for salvation. But the initial act is not ours, it is God's.

So you're going with the predestination idea, where you are chosen, and a personal decision isn't required. As I've said before ... believe what you want.

No, quoting Scripture that Calvinists abuse does not mean I am preaching predestination. They don't own those Bible verses. I wouldn't be asking people here to receive the forgiveness of God if I didn't believe it is available for everyone.

Make up your mind. You do know what requisite means don't you? Without the person choosing to fulfill that requisite, the sacrifice does nothing for him. As I said, and you just confirmed, the death on the cross does nothing for those who don't repent and change. It was never intended to. You just argue to be disagreeable. Why don't you ever read what is actually written before you spout crap?

Do you? I've been a model of consistency throughout this thread. Forgiveness comes first, then sanctification. You argue that people need to change first, but that's not true, in fact it's impossible. The point of coming to God with a demeanor of surrender is that we are unable to change our ways. God gives us the power of a changed heart, making us a new creation. This is what Jesus meant when he taught that to enter God's kingdom one must be born again.

Living a changed life of repentance and renewal is our response to forgiveness, not a "requisite".

THEN MAKE UP YOUR MIND

your quote
A response on our part is certainly required, to commit to a new way of living, and to act out our faith with good works, a requisite for salvation

The confusion is understandable. Forgiveness is in an instant, but salvation is a process that must be maintained to the end. Hebrews chapters 2 and 3 warn repeatedly that faith must be held steadfast to the end. See the difference now? Protestant teaching often muddies the water, teaching that salvation cannot be forfeited. But the Bible is clear that it can, that we do not lose free will, that we must persevere in our faith and that we can walk away from it if we choose.....and many people do.

It cannot be stressed enough that forgiveness is given to us unconditionally; a free gift for all who ask. But salvation is a culmination of our continued response to grace.

"Be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life." Revelation 2:10

And I really am trying to be clear for you and not confuse you.

 

[BULLDOG]

So you're going with the predestination idea, where you are chosen, and a personal decision isn't required. As I've said before ... believe what you want.

No, quoting Scripture that Calvinists abuse does not mean I am preaching predestination. They don't own those Bible verses. I wouldn't be asking people here to receive the forgiveness of God if I didn't believe it is available for everyone.

Make up your mind. You do know what requisite means don't you? Without the person choosing to fulfill that requisite, the sacrifice does nothing for him. As I said, and you just confirmed, the death on the cross does nothing for those who don't repent and change. It was never intended to. You just argue to be disagreeable. Why don't you ever read what is actually written before you spout crap?

Do you? I've been a model of consistency throughout this thread. Forgiveness comes first, then sanctification. You argue that people need to change first, but that's not true, in fact it's impossible. The point of coming to God with a demeanor of surrender is that we are unable to change our ways. God gives us the power of a changed heart, making us a new creation. This is what Jesus meant when he taught that to enter God's kingdom one must be born again.

Living a changed life of repentance and renewal is our response to forgiveness, not a "requisite".

THEN MAKE UP YOUR MIND

your quote
A response on our part is certainly required, to commit to a new way of living, and to act out our faith with good works, a requisite for salvation

The confusion is understandable. Forgiveness is in an instant, but salvation is a process that must be maintained to the end. Hebrews chapters 2 and 3 warn repeatedly that faith must be held steadfast to the end. See the difference now? Protestant teaching often muddies the water, teaching that salvation cannot be forfeited. But the Bible is clear that it can, that we do not lose free will, that we must persevere in our faith and that we can walk away from it if we choose.....and many people do.

It cannot be stressed enough that forgiveness is given to us unconditionally; a free gift for all who ask. But salvation is a culmination of our continued response to grace.

"Be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life." Revelation 2:10

And I really am trying to be clear for you and not confuse you.

I suspect the confusion is on your part upon realizing your rote beliefs don't always align as well as you had assumed.

 

[Statistikhengst]

You a defense attorney?

You have never posted anything that would indicate any knowledge of the law. In fact, the only law you seem to know about is your own cult's.

How does your god feel about you lying?

I'm sure he would be upset if I was lying.

Considering we had a discussion about this before, you have a bad memory.

If you've defended paedophiles, Avatar, that you knew were guilty? You have partaken in their sin by defending them in a courtroom. The Bible explicitly tells us not to call evil good or good evil. That you could say that to Luddly and not feel any shame about it? Tells me you are in serious trouble and do not even realize it.

Why should I feel shame for doing what Christ does? He is our advocate with the Father. He loves us despite us being sinners who often do horrible things. He defends us to the point that He bled for us.

Are you a Christian and not realizing that? He died for you, for me, and even for pedohiles. He died for everyone. Every single one of us.

If he was willing to die to give even the most vile of us a chance to change, who am I to not live to do the same?

No. He died for those that had already changed and received forgiveness. You probably need to reread that part.

Those who refuse forgiveness and reject Jesus Christ are rejecting the terms God has laid down for redemption. Therein they remain condemned in their sins and there is no pardon.

Are you aware what the Torah says about forgiveness?

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

 

[Statistikhengst]

For the left/libs "forgiveness" is only for those WHO they deem should get it

and that means. everyone who is a Democrat. No matter they are: an adulterer, a drowner of women, a Former KKK member, a homosexual who ran a underage brothel out of his home. AND their sick judgment of all Mankind goes on and on

oh did I mention. Anyone who is Conservative/Republican gets NO FORGIVINESS from them. they think they should automatically be sent to hell

that's a two faced hypocrite

If Josh Duggar owned up and paid his debt to society and served his time, I'd let him vote. Conservatives wouldn't.

Did you demand the same for Barney Frank? For Bill Clinton? For Gerry Studds? For Ted Kennedy and/or his nephew who he defended? Etc. etc. etc. Once we get on the slippery slope of demanding that one person bear the most severe penalty of law but give those we like pretty much a pass, it all becomes quite murky and the lines of justice become very blurred.

I think each of us has to search our own heart for what is appropriate in any given case. It seems to me that Josh Duggar has suffered huge public embarrassment and significant consequence for his past sins. If his sisters can forgive him and assure us that all is well, what is it to the rest of us to allow him to get on with his life? What purpose is served by locking up a repentent adult because of something stupid he did in his youth that caused no lasting harm?

Not sure what crime was committed by Barny Frank, and Bill Clinton got away with stupidity only because his wife forgave him - again no crime was committed - but the point you're trying to make is valid - justice in America seems to have less to do with the truth than the resources that the accused can commit to lawyers and campaign contributions, and that truly is a disgusting black eye worn by all of us.

If Josh Duggar were truly repentant, he would confess his crimes publicly and accept whatever punishment society wanted to throw at him without so much as a word in his own defense. Sure, as a believer in Jesus, The Christ, as described in The Torah and The New Testament, he could rest in the forgiveness from God that his faith provides, but his debt to society is between us and him. Just because God forgives him doesn't mean that humanity at large is under the same obligation.

I concur.

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

 

[NYcarbineer]

A young Josh Duggar did go to his parents, confessed his sin, and did accept the consequences imposed upon him for it

The consequences proposed by the parents is not what society proposes to others who commit the same type of crime. Christians who commit crimes are not exempt from society's rules and a good Christian would be more than willing to pay for his crime. We don't know if Josh Duggar is completely cured, or if he is just more cautious, and our duty to innocent children should supersede any pity we might have for someone no matter how Christian/penitent he may seem to appear.

Most especially when he realizes it was wrong and has incurred the punishment deemed appropriate for it?

Excuse me, but who decided that the punishment he incurred is deemed appropriate? His parents? His political peers?

A police report was filed. Apparently the authorities were satisfied that the punishment was appropriate. Unless we were there, unless we were in a position of authority in that situation, we have no basis to judge that the situation was not handled appropriately or at least as well as anybody knew to do at the time. The misconduct was not ignored, it was not minimalized, it was not excused.

I am in no position to say that Josh Duggar must now pay for something he did as a kid 12 years ago. I don't think anybody here is qualified to demand that unless you know precisely what the situation was and what is in Josh Duggar's mind and heart.

Er, the police report was not filed at the time that it happened. His parents knew about it and didn't report it for a year. How in the hell do we trust anything they say? Like, he's been cured....looks to me like a coverup has been underway for a long time. That's not the way these cases are handled for others.

Jim Bob and Michelle, reportedly knew about the accusations, but didn't report them to police for over a year.
What counseling did Josh Duggar undergo HLNtv.com

Josh was 14 and 15 when the improper touching occurred, but the police report wasn't filed until 2006 — four years after the incidents.
Josh Duggar Molestation Report Was NOT Illegally Released City Attorney Says PerezHilton.com

To add insult to injury, Josh turned around and sued DHS for investigating him.

I find it highly offensive for those who claim to be Christian to say that Josh received proper counseling, considering the founder of the so-called Christian treatment center was apparently suffering from the same illness.....and considered himself cured, I'm sure, until he was found out.

Josh's parents sent their son to a Christian treatment center which was founded by Bill Gothard, a 'Christian' writer, who later left after reaching out and touching as many as 30 girls in his ministry.
Josh Duggar Sued Arkansas After They Investigated His Sex Crimes Liberaland

So which was it. Over a year? Or four years? The accusations and blame and finger pointing are coming from all directions. But nobody wants to hear from those who were actually there--they aren't credible it seems even though there is no evidence they have falsified anything. Regardless of when the police report was filed, obviously the police saw no reason to pursue prosecution of Josh Duggar. So were they covering up something?

The fact is none of us know. The fact is none of us have a clue how we would handle that situation if it was our own teenage kid. A whole bunch of people are sitting in judgment gleefully gobbling up what scandal any tabloid or news source can make out of the situation, and not one has a clue about about what really happened or how it was actually handled.

But without evidence that Josh Duggar is a danger to himself or anybody else, to drag all these people through the mud 12 years later for no better reason than it can be done and it is a slow news week is just wrong.

It's newsworthy politically and socially because of the highly disproportionate amount of sympathy and support the Josh Duggar et al are getting from conservatives who have never ever ever shown this attitude towards anyone who was not one of 'their own' politically.

 

[featherlite]

Everywhere else some of you mock and belittle the Bible, now you pick out the parts that serve a purpose for you and are preaching it.




Repentance is between Josh and God...the honest, final judgement rest with God. Morons with an agenda & public mob mentality is totally incapable of something like that.

Safety of kids is the important issue.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I'm sure he would be upset if I was lying.

Considering we had a discussion about this before, you have a bad memory.

If you've defended paedophiles, Avatar, that you knew were guilty? You have partaken in their sin by defending them in a courtroom. The Bible explicitly tells us not to call evil good or good evil. That you could say that to Luddly and not feel any shame about it? Tells me you are in serious trouble and do not even realize it.

Why should I feel shame for doing what Christ does? He is our advocate with the Father. He loves us despite us being sinners who often do horrible things. He defends us to the point that He bled for us.

Are you a Christian and not realizing that? He died for you, for me, and even for pedohiles. He died for everyone. Every single one of us.

If he was willing to die to give even the most vile of us a chance to change, who am I to not live to do the same?

No. He died for those that had already changed and received forgiveness. You probably need to reread that part.

Those who refuse forgiveness and reject Jesus Christ are rejecting the terms God has laid down for redemption. Therein they remain condemned in their sins and there is no pardon.

Are you aware what the Torah says about forgiveness?

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

I'm sure he would be upset if I was lying.

Considering we had a discussion about this before, you have a bad memory.

If you've defended paedophiles, Avatar, that you knew were guilty? You have partaken in their sin by defending them in a courtroom. The Bible explicitly tells us not to call evil good or good evil. That you could say that to Luddly and not feel any shame about it? Tells me you are in serious trouble and do not even realize it.

Why should I feel shame for doing what Christ does? He is our advocate with the Father. He loves us despite us being sinners who often do horrible things. He defends us to the point that He bled for us.

Are you a Christian and not realizing that? He died for you, for me, and even for pedohiles. He died for everyone. Every single one of us.

If he was willing to die to give even the most vile of us a chance to change, who am I to not live to do the same?

No. He died for those that had already changed and received forgiveness. You probably need to reread that part.

Those who refuse forgiveness and reject Jesus Christ are rejecting the terms God has laid down for redemption. Therein they remain condemned in their sins and there is no pardon.

Are you aware what the Torah says about forgiveness?

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

Yes. Are you aware of what Jesus Christ said about it? Do you realize that the bar has been raised concerning the command to be holy? Look at this, Stat.

Matthew 5. The Holy Bible King James Version

Jesus' Attitude toward the Law
17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Lk. 16.17
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus' Attitude toward Anger
Lk. 12.57-59
21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; Ex. 20.13 · Deut. 5.17and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 but I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee;
24 leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Everywhere else some of you mock and belittle the Bible, now you pick out the parts that serve a purpose for you and are preaching it.




Repentance is between Josh and God...the honest, final judgement rest with God. Morons with an agenda & public mob mentality is totally incapable of something like that.

Safety of kids is the important issue.

So... do you agree with the morons and the growing public mob that the safety of the kids is the most important issue?

I'm confused.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

No, quoting Scripture that Calvinists abuse does not mean I am preaching predestination. They don't own those Bible verses. I wouldn't be asking people here to receive the forgiveness of God if I didn't believe it is available for everyone.

Make up your mind. You do know what requisite means don't you? Without the person choosing to fulfill that requisite, the sacrifice does nothing for him. As I said, and you just confirmed, the death on the cross does nothing for those who don't repent and change. It was never intended to. You just argue to be disagreeable. Why don't you ever read what is actually written before you spout crap?

Do you? I've been a model of consistency throughout this thread. Forgiveness comes first, then sanctification. You argue that people need to change first, but that's not true, in fact it's impossible. The point of coming to God with a demeanor of surrender is that we are unable to change our ways. God gives us the power of a changed heart, making us a new creation. This is what Jesus meant when he taught that to enter God's kingdom one must be born again.

Living a changed life of repentance and renewal is our response to forgiveness, not a "requisite".

THEN MAKE UP YOUR MIND

your quote
A response on our part is certainly required, to commit to a new way of living, and to act out our faith with good works, a requisite for salvation

The confusion is understandable. Forgiveness is in an instant, but salvation is a process that must be maintained to the end. Hebrews chapters 2 and 3 warn repeatedly that faith must be held steadfast to the end. See the difference now? Protestant teaching often muddies the water, teaching that salvation cannot be forfeited. But the Bible is clear that it can, that we do not lose free will, that we must persevere in our faith and that we can walk away from it if we choose.....and many people do.

It cannot be stressed enough that forgiveness is given to us unconditionally; a free gift for all who ask. But salvation is a culmination of our continued response to grace.

"Be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life." Revelation 2:10

And I really am trying to be clear for you and not confuse you.

I suspect the confusion is on your part upon realizing your rote beliefs don't always align as well as you had assumed.

Bulldog, not everyone preaches Christ from a pure heart or with a pure motive. We are warned about this in the King James Bible in the book of Philippians (there are other Scriptures but we'll focus on this one)

It is written:

Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife: and some of good will. The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, posing to add affliction to my bonds. But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? Not withstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached, and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Philippians 1:15-18

These are the words of Paul to the Philippians. What is Paul telling them? He is telling them not to be troubled by those who preach Christ from envy and strife. Because they were attempting to add afflictions to Paul who was a true follower of Jesus Christ - this was their motive.

They were not preaching for the love of Jesus Christ which was the motive of Paul's heart. They were preaching with "pretence", but Paul said he rejoiced because either way? The Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached!

Bulldog, when you encounter a person who claims to be a follower of Christ and a preacher of the Gospel and they put up the Scriptures - the Word of God - yet their own actions / words expose them - their condescension towards others, stirring up strife, using filthy language (in between their sermons) talking down to others, full of pride and haughtiness and boastfulness - do not focus on them because God will surely deal with them in due time - but rejoice that the Gospel is preached - even by the wicked!

This was what the LORD gave me the other morning during prayer as I was concerned about what some who profess Christ were doing on this board - I'm not longer concerned knowing that even in Paul's time he dealt with the same type of individuals!

These are the ones that will one day come to Jesus and say, but Lord! Didn't I preach your word and do many good things? And he will say depart from me ye worker of iniquity I never knew you.

 

[Statistikhengst]

If you've defended paedophiles, Avatar, that you knew were guilty? You have partaken in their sin by defending them in a courtroom. The Bible explicitly tells us not to call evil good or good evil. That you could say that to Luddly and not feel any shame about it? Tells me you are in serious trouble and do not even realize it.

Why should I feel shame for doing what Christ does? He is our advocate with the Father. He loves us despite us being sinners who often do horrible things. He defends us to the point that He bled for us.

Are you a Christian and not realizing that? He died for you, for me, and even for pedohiles. He died for everyone. Every single one of us.

If he was willing to die to give even the most vile of us a chance to change, who am I to not live to do the same?

No. He died for those that had already changed and received forgiveness. You probably need to reread that part.

Those who refuse forgiveness and reject Jesus Christ are rejecting the terms God has laid down for redemption. Therein they remain condemned in their sins and there is no pardon.

Are you aware what the Torah says about forgiveness?

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

If you've defended paedophiles, Avatar, that you knew were guilty? You have partaken in their sin by defending them in a courtroom. The Bible explicitly tells us not to call evil good or good evil. That you could say that to Luddly and not feel any shame about it? Tells me you are in serious trouble and do not even realize it.

Why should I feel shame for doing what Christ does? He is our advocate with the Father. He loves us despite us being sinners who often do horrible things. He defends us to the point that He bled for us.

Are you a Christian and not realizing that? He died for you, for me, and even for pedohiles. He died for everyone. Every single one of us.

If he was willing to die to give even the most vile of us a chance to change, who am I to not live to do the same?

No. He died for those that had already changed and received forgiveness. You probably need to reread that part.

Those who refuse forgiveness and reject Jesus Christ are rejecting the terms God has laid down for redemption. Therein they remain condemned in their sins and there is no pardon.

Are you aware what the Torah says about forgiveness?

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

Yes. Are you aware of what Jesus Christ said about it? Do you realize that the bar has been raised concerning the command to be holy? Look at this, Stat.

Matthew 5. The Holy Bible King James Version

Jesus' Attitude toward the Law
17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Lk. 16.17
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus' Attitude toward Anger
Lk. 12.57-59
21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; Ex. 20.13 · Deut. 5.17and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 but I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee;
24 leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Uhm, you missed the point.

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Why should I feel shame for doing what Christ does? He is our advocate with the Father. He loves us despite us being sinners who often do horrible things. He defends us to the point that He bled for us.

Are you a Christian and not realizing that? He died for you, for me, and even for pedohiles. He died for everyone. Every single one of us.

If he was willing to die to give even the most vile of us a chance to change, who am I to not live to do the same?

No. He died for those that had already changed and received forgiveness. You probably need to reread that part.

Those who refuse forgiveness and reject Jesus Christ are rejecting the terms God has laid down for redemption. Therein they remain condemned in their sins and there is no pardon.

Are you aware what the Torah says about forgiveness?

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

Why should I feel shame for doing what Christ does? He is our advocate with the Father. He loves us despite us being sinners who often do horrible things. He defends us to the point that He bled for us.

Are you a Christian and not realizing that? He died for you, for me, and even for pedohiles. He died for everyone. Every single one of us.

If he was willing to die to give even the most vile of us a chance to change, who am I to not live to do the same?

No. He died for those that had already changed and received forgiveness. You probably need to reread that part.

Those who refuse forgiveness and reject Jesus Christ are rejecting the terms God has laid down for redemption. Therein they remain condemned in their sins and there is no pardon.

Are you aware what the Torah says about forgiveness?

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

Yes. Are you aware of what Jesus Christ said about it? Do you realize that the bar has been raised concerning the command to be holy? Look at this, Stat.

Matthew 5. The Holy Bible King James Version

Jesus' Attitude toward the Law
17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Lk. 16.17
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus' Attitude toward Anger
Lk. 12.57-59
21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; Ex. 20.13 · Deut. 5.17and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 but I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee;
24 leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Uhm, you missed the point.

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

The only point that matters is the one that God is trying to get across to us, Stat. Here is another message that gives us His point of view on the matter of forgiveness.

Luke 16 KJV
The Law and the Prophets

(Matthew 11:7-19; Luke 1:5-25; Luke 7:24-35)
14And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
______________
Now examine this story and see how the LORD teaches us about forgiveness, Stat.

Matthew 18. The Holy Bible King James Version

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
21 ¶ Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Lk. 17.3, 4
23 ¶ Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, which owed him a hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellow servant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellow servants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

 

[featherlite]

Everywhere else some of you mock and belittle the Bible, now you pick out the parts that serve a purpose for you and are preaching it.




Repentance is between Josh and God...the honest, final judgement rest with God. Morons with an agenda & public mob mentality is totally incapable of something like that.

Safety of kids is the important issue.

So... do you agree with the morons and the growing public mob that the safety of the kids is the most important issue?

 

[featherlite]

It just bothered me that I was so quick to defend a family & the pedophile accusations. I realized I didn't really know enough about either to make an informed comment.

..No obviously Im not a part of the convicting growing mob mentality.
Id want to hear only the verified facts, listen to people directly involved and take everything into consideration.
This just isnt the place for that.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Stat, do you realize there are Jews ( not all - but some) - Jewish men and women who also partake in the works of darkness - practicing witchcraft and the works of the devil - seeking to seduce men into sins against God of Israel and His commandments which warn against such things - and yet they will celebrate Hannukah in front of their own children!

They do not see the destruction they are bringing down upon their own households by their rebellion against God. Knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do they do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

A man is known by the company he keeps. No one can drink from the cup of demons and the cup of the LORD. A double minded man will receive nothing from God.

Some believe that only Gentiles are Baal worshippers but the Scriptures are clear that even God's own people were drawn away into Baal worship and so they have sold their birthright in exchange for what the devil offered them. How awful to realize that such blindness can happen even to those who were chosen by God first to walk in His commands and obey Him. Have nothing to do with the works of darkness because it is an abomination to God - every hidden thing shall be revealed. Every sin that is covered up shall be exposed. God is not mocked. Whatsover a man sows that is what he shall reap. If we obey God and have nothing to do with the works of darkness what will He not provide that we have need of? What blessing would he withhold from us?

It is written:

O Lord of hosts, hear my prayer: give ear, O God of Jacob. Selah. Behold, Our God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness. For the Lord God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly. O LORD of hosts, blessed is the man that trusteth in thee. Psalm 84:8-12

We cannot be a doorkeeper in the Temple of the LORD and then dwell in the tents of wickedness. God sees everything. His eye is watching everything. He does not miss anything. Let those who have departed from the LORD in their hearts and have dwelled in the tents of the wicked return to Him with repentant hearts and God will have mercy and forgive, restore and make the crooked paths straight.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

It just bothered me that I was so quick to defend a family & the pedophile accusations. I realized I didn't really know enough about either to make an informed comment.

..No obviously Im not a part of the convicting growing mob mentality.
Id want to hear only the verified facts, listen to people directly involved and take everything into consideration.
This just isnt the place for that.

I did the same thing, featherlite. i didn't know enough to make an informed decision on what was going on and yet I did - early on. I came to the same conclusion that you did on the matter! The good news is we have admitted this. Your honesty is to be commended.

 

[BULLDOG]

Make up your mind. You do know what requisite means don't you? Without the person choosing to fulfill that requisite, the sacrifice does nothing for him. As I said, and you just confirmed, the death on the cross does nothing for those who don't repent and change. It was never intended to. You just argue to be disagreeable. Why don't you ever read what is actually written before you spout crap?

Do you? I've been a model of consistency throughout this thread. Forgiveness comes first, then sanctification. You argue that people need to change first, but that's not true, in fact it's impossible. The point of coming to God with a demeanor of surrender is that we are unable to change our ways. God gives us the power of a changed heart, making us a new creation. This is what Jesus meant when he taught that to enter God's kingdom one must be born again.

Living a changed life of repentance and renewal is our response to forgiveness, not a "requisite".

THEN MAKE UP YOUR MIND

your quote
A response on our part is certainly required, to commit to a new way of living, and to act out our faith with good works, a requisite for salvation

The confusion is understandable. Forgiveness is in an instant, but salvation is a process that must be maintained to the end. Hebrews chapters 2 and 3 warn repeatedly that faith must be held steadfast to the end. See the difference now? Protestant teaching often muddies the water, teaching that salvation cannot be forfeited. But the Bible is clear that it can, that we do not lose free will, that we must persevere in our faith and that we can walk away from it if we choose.....and many people do.

It cannot be stressed enough that forgiveness is given to us unconditionally; a free gift for all who ask. But salvation is a culmination of our continued response to grace.

"Be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life." Revelation 2:10

And I really am trying to be clear for you and not confuse you.

I suspect the confusion is on your part upon realizing your rote beliefs don't always align as well as you had assumed.

Bulldog, not everyone preaches Christ from a pure heart or with a pure motive. We are warned about this in the King James Bible in the book of Philippians (there are other Scriptures but we'll focus on this one)

It is written:

Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife: and some of good will. The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, posing to add affliction to my bonds. But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? Not withstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached, and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Philippians 1:15-18

These are the words of Paul to the Philippians. What is Paul telling them? He is telling them not to be troubled by those who preach Christ from envy and strife. Because they were attempting to add afflictions to Paul who was a true follower of Jesus Christ - this was their motive.

They were not preaching for the love of Jesus Christ which was the motive of Paul's heart. They were preaching with "pretence", but Paul said he rejoiced because either way? The Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached!

Bulldog, when you encounter a person who claims to be a follower of Christ and a preacher of the Gospel and they put up the Scriptures - the Word of God - yet their own actions / words expose them - their condescension towards others, stirring up strife, using filthy language (in between their sermons) talking down to others, full of pride and haughtiness and boastfulness - do not focus on them because God will surely deal with them in due time - but rejoice that the Gospel is preached - even by the wicked!

This was what the LORD gave me the other morning during prayer as I was concerned about what some who profess Christ were doing on this board - I'm not longer concerned knowing that even in Paul's time he dealt with the same type of individuals!

These are the ones that will one day come to Jesus and say, but Lord! Didn't I preach your word and do many good things? And he will say depart from me ye worker of iniquity I never knew you.

I still haven't figured out when or why Paul's teachings became equal, or in some cases more important than those of Jesus.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Do you? I've been a model of consistency throughout this thread. Forgiveness comes first, then sanctification. You argue that people need to change first, but that's not true, in fact it's impossible. The point of coming to God with a demeanor of surrender is that we are unable to change our ways. God gives us the power of a changed heart, making us a new creation. This is what Jesus meant when he taught that to enter God's kingdom one must be born again.

Living a changed life of repentance and renewal is our response to forgiveness, not a "requisite".

THEN MAKE UP YOUR MIND

your quote
A response on our part is certainly required, to commit to a new way of living, and to act out our faith with good works, a requisite for salvation

The confusion is understandable. Forgiveness is in an instant, but salvation is a process that must be maintained to the end. Hebrews chapters 2 and 3 warn repeatedly that faith must be held steadfast to the end. See the difference now? Protestant teaching often muddies the water, teaching that salvation cannot be forfeited. But the Bible is clear that it can, that we do not lose free will, that we must persevere in our faith and that we can walk away from it if we choose.....and many people do.

It cannot be stressed enough that forgiveness is given to us unconditionally; a free gift for all who ask. But salvation is a culmination of our continued response to grace.

"Be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life." Revelation 2:10

And I really am trying to be clear for you and not confuse you.

I suspect the confusion is on your part upon realizing your rote beliefs don't always align as well as you had assumed.

Bulldog, not everyone preaches Christ from a pure heart or with a pure motive. We are warned about this in the King James Bible in the book of Philippians (there are other Scriptures but we'll focus on this one)

It is written:

Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife: and some of good will. The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, posing to add affliction to my bonds. But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? Not withstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached, and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Philippians 1:15-18

These are the words of Paul to the Philippians. What is Paul telling them? He is telling them not to be troubled by those who preach Christ from envy and strife. Because they were attempting to add afflictions to Paul who was a true follower of Jesus Christ - this was their motive.

They were not preaching for the love of Jesus Christ which was the motive of Paul's heart. They were preaching with "pretence", but Paul said he rejoiced because either way? The Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached!

Bulldog, when you encounter a person who claims to be a follower of Christ and a preacher of the Gospel and they put up the Scriptures - the Word of God - yet their own actions / words expose them - their condescension towards others, stirring up strife, using filthy language (in between their sermons) talking down to others, full of pride and haughtiness and boastfulness - do not focus on them because God will surely deal with them in due time - but rejoice that the Gospel is preached - even by the wicked!

This was what the LORD gave me the other morning during prayer as I was concerned about what some who profess Christ were doing on this board - I'm not longer concerned knowing that even in Paul's time he dealt with the same type of individuals!

These are the ones that will one day come to Jesus and say, but Lord! Didn't I preach your word and do many good things? And he will say depart from me ye worker of iniquity I never knew you.

I still haven't figured out when or why Paul's teachings became equal, or in some cases more important than those of Jesus.

I haven't figured out why you set up in your mind a conflict between Jesus and an apostle of Jesus.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

No, quoting Scripture that Calvinists abuse does not mean I am preaching predestination. They don't own those Bible verses. I wouldn't be asking people here to receive the forgiveness of God if I didn't believe it is available for everyone.

Make up your mind. You do know what requisite means don't you? Without the person choosing to fulfill that requisite, the sacrifice does nothing for him. As I said, and you just confirmed, the death on the cross does nothing for those who don't repent and change. It was never intended to. You just argue to be disagreeable. Why don't you ever read what is actually written before you spout crap?

Do you? I've been a model of consistency throughout this thread. Forgiveness comes first, then sanctification. You argue that people need to change first, but that's not true, in fact it's impossible. The point of coming to God with a demeanor of surrender is that we are unable to change our ways. God gives us the power of a changed heart, making us a new creation. This is what Jesus meant when he taught that to enter God's kingdom one must be born again.

Living a changed life of repentance and renewal is our response to forgiveness, not a "requisite".

THEN MAKE UP YOUR MIND

your quote
A response on our part is certainly required, to commit to a new way of living, and to act out our faith with good works, a requisite for salvation

The confusion is understandable. Forgiveness is in an instant, but salvation is a process that must be maintained to the end. Hebrews chapters 2 and 3 warn repeatedly that faith must be held steadfast to the end. See the difference now? Protestant teaching often muddies the water, teaching that salvation cannot be forfeited. But the Bible is clear that it can, that we do not lose free will, that we must persevere in our faith and that we can walk away from it if we choose.....and many people do.

It cannot be stressed enough that forgiveness is given to us unconditionally; a free gift for all who ask. But salvation is a culmination of our continued response to grace.

"Be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life." Revelation 2:10

And I really am trying to be clear for you and not confuse you.

I suspect the confusion is on your part upon realizing your rote beliefs don't always align as well as you had assumed.

A claim which you have certainly failed to substantiate.

 

[Mertex]

So were they covering up something?

The fact is none of us know.

That is why an investigation is important....we need to know that no other child is at risk with Josh Duggar.

 

[BULLDOG]

THEN MAKE UP YOUR MIND

your quote
A response on our part is certainly required, to commit to a new way of living, and to act out our faith with good works, a requisite for salvation

The confusion is understandable. Forgiveness is in an instant, but salvation is a process that must be maintained to the end. Hebrews chapters 2 and 3 warn repeatedly that faith must be held steadfast to the end. See the difference now? Protestant teaching often muddies the water, teaching that salvation cannot be forfeited. But the Bible is clear that it can, that we do not lose free will, that we must persevere in our faith and that we can walk away from it if we choose.....and many people do.

It cannot be stressed enough that forgiveness is given to us unconditionally; a free gift for all who ask. But salvation is a culmination of our continued response to grace.

"Be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life." Revelation 2:10

And I really am trying to be clear for you and not confuse you.

I suspect the confusion is on your part upon realizing your rote beliefs don't always align as well as you had assumed.

Bulldog, not everyone preaches Christ from a pure heart or with a pure motive. We are warned about this in the King James Bible in the book of Philippians (there are other Scriptures but we'll focus on this one)

It is written:

Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife: and some of good will. The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, posing to add affliction to my bonds. But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? Not withstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached, and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Philippians 1:15-18

These are the words of Paul to the Philippians. What is Paul telling them? He is telling them not to be troubled by those who preach Christ from envy and strife. Because they were attempting to add afflictions to Paul who was a true follower of Jesus Christ - this was their motive.

They were not preaching for the love of Jesus Christ which was the motive of Paul's heart. They were preaching with "pretence", but Paul said he rejoiced because either way? The Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached!

Bulldog, when you encounter a person who claims to be a follower of Christ and a preacher of the Gospel and they put up the Scriptures - the Word of God - yet their own actions / words expose them - their condescension towards others, stirring up strife, using filthy language (in between their sermons) talking down to others, full of pride and haughtiness and boastfulness - do not focus on them because God will surely deal with them in due time - but rejoice that the Gospel is preached - even by the wicked!

This was what the LORD gave me the other morning during prayer as I was concerned about what some who profess Christ were doing on this board - I'm not longer concerned knowing that even in Paul's time he dealt with the same type of individuals!

These are the ones that will one day come to Jesus and say, but Lord! Didn't I preach your word and do many good things? And he will say depart from me ye worker of iniquity I never knew you.

I still haven't figured out when or why Paul's teachings became equal, or in some cases more important than those of Jesus.

I haven't figured out why you set up in your mind a conflict between Jesus and an apostle of Jesus.

Because Paul never even met Jesus in life, and their teachings contradict in many ways. On this particular subject,

Paul says:
Rom.9
[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.

Jesus says:
Matt.7
[21] Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[22] On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.