Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

[Lewdog]

Im pro gun rights but the mentality of anyone thinking this is OK makes me question being pretty pro regulation...I dunno. Its def. a downer that people are so irrational like that.

I'm of the mind that you don't assault people
I don't care that people who assault others get dead

Again, so do you believe in the Constitution or not? I want to make sure to hold you to this.

The constitution has nothing to do with it

The 8th amendment applies to bail and sentences passed by the government

Yeah, the punishment should fit the crime. You are fucking arguing that the guy deserved the death penalty for pushing the guy down. You fucking believe in the Constitution or not. It's based on the same principle.

WTF? You don't even know what the Constitution is, Democrats never do. The Constitution is a limitation on government. Where the fuck do you get that the bill of rights are powers of government? That's completely moronic.

Murder is State law, not Federal law

What in the fuck are you talking about? I never said murder was a federal law. However the 8th Amendment gives citizens protection against cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[kaz]

He's talking about his fists, moron. I mean duh. How did you possibly not get that?

In that case did he place his hands on anyone ?

You already admitted that you and your wife would both have felt threatened if it had been you

Yes but the threat has not risen to a level requiring lethal force absent hands on or brandishing a weapon.

Neither was getting knocked down by a guy defending his woman from him who then backed off

He wasn't defending his woman when he walked up and shoved the man to the ground.... that was a level of violence that was completely over the top.......

The guy on the ground did not commit a physical act of aggression, and simply arguing with someone isn't cause for a violent physical assault.

I can't believe you people keep arguing that a man pushing you to the ground is an adequate justification for killing him ...

... but ...

... a psychotic man who could physically beat the hell out of your wife screaming at her in a parking lot over where you're parked is no threat and not a justification to do anything at all about it.

Here's a dollar, buy some perspective

 

[Skull Pilot]

Supposed to be trained?

Where is that stipulation in any law regarding self defense?

Concealed permit holder right ?? Are you suggesting that concealed carry permits are found in cracker jack boxes ??

Where is there any stipulation on being trained to overcome emotion?

An NRA pistol safety class does not train people to overcome emotion

However, it would train people to avoid rather than create conflict as the test way to prevent shootings, however. And the goal is to avoid a shooting if at all possible, not just justify a shooting.

If you were carrying, would you start screaming at another guys's woman over where she was parked? You see any risk of that turning into a shooting?

I don't yell at anyone

but then again yelling at a person is not a crime while forcibly assaulting a person is

Threatening people is a crime.

So seriously, you'd let someone scream at your wife for where you'd parked.

Again with the stupid argument

Shoving someone who is threatening your wife is an unreasonable escallation

Killing someone who shoves you for yelling at his wife is perfectly good.

That's totally idiotic

Do you know he was threatening anyone

There was no audio

Look no matter how you slice it the guy yelling was assaulted by the much larger guy

Would you feel your life might be in danger if a guy who was much bigger than you blindsided you and knocked you on your ass?

 

[Flash]

As uncouth as it is and as much as it might piss you off another man arguing with your wife is not provocation enough to attack by shoving him down.

As uncouth as it is and as much as it might piss you off a man shoving you to the ground is not provocation enough to kill him.

However, the responsible party is the one that initiated the physical contact.

 

[Skull Pilot]

In that case did he place his hands on anyone ?

You already admitted that you and your wife would both have felt threatened if it had been you

Yes but the threat has not risen to a level requiring lethal force absent hands on or brandishing a weapon.

Neither was getting knocked down by a guy defending his woman from him who then backed off

He wasn't defending his woman when he walked up and shoved the man to the ground.... that was a level of violence that was completely over the top.......

The guy on the ground did not commit a physical act of aggression, and simply arguing with someone isn't cause for a violent physical assault.

I can't believe you people keep arguing that a man pushing you to the ground is an adequate justification for killing him ...

... but ...

... a psychotic man who could physically beat the hell out of your wife screaming at her in a parking lot over where you're parked is no threat and not a justification to do anything at all about it.

Here's a dollar, buy some perspective

Oversimplification

If a guy much larger than you blind sided you and laid you out on the pavement would you think your life might be in danger?

 

[Lewdog]

I do know, that's why I said they share the same principle. Do you not know what that means?

Hell you keep saying the 8th Amendment is just about bail. No the 8th Amendment's MAIN topic is Cruel and Unusual Punishment. Do you know what that means? That means the punishment should fit the crime... and that everyone should be punished equally. So when you say that a guy that pushed a guy to the ground deserves to die, you show how little morals you have. Then if you want to say that, but then the next minute say you support the Constitution, then you just admit your a hypocrite.

So, what is it then? You are either stupid, racist, a hypocrite, a troll, or a liar based on the comments you've made in this thread.

I'll let you chose.

They don't share the same principal at all.

The guy who shot in what he considered to be self defense after being blindsided by a much larger person will not be charged with violating the 8th amendment.

He will be charged with some degree of murder and tried for it.

If he can justify the shooting he will walk

They don't? If you break the law, the punishment you receive is dictated by the Bill of Rights in the 8th Amendment that you can not receive a punishment that the courts rule are cruel and unusual compared to the severity of the crime. That's EXACTLY the same principle. But see the issue here is you are a hypocrite that lacks morals. You'd rather defend and try to scapegoat a murderer, instead of admitting a legal gun carrying citizen abused his right.

No it's not it's dictated by the laws and statutes of the state the crime was committed in

Wow. The Bill of Rights has power over the states given to it by Due Process through the 14th Amendment.

Our educational system is seriously failing our country. Some of the stuff in this thread EVERY citizen in this country should know in order to be able to vote.

I cannot violate your 8th amendment rights, Idiot

Only the government can violate your 8th amendment rights

You dumbfuck. I've told you at least 3 times now I never said that. I said they share the same PRINCIPLE. If you agree with the Constitution which gives citizens protection against cruel and unusual punishment, then in life, if you don't feel the same way, you are a hypocrite, which you've proven.

You said that the guy DESERVED TO DIE, for committing simple assault by pushing the guy to the ground. The punishment does not fit the crime.

 

[OODA_Loop]

I can't believe you people keep arguing that a man pushing you to the ground is an adequate justification for killing him ...

... but ...

... a psychotic man who could physically beat the hell out of your wife screaming at her in a parking lot over where you're parked is no threat and not a justification to do anything at all about it.

Here's a dollar, buy some perspective

One is physical assault.

One are mean words.

The law only supports lethal force in one of those circumstances.

 

[kaz]

Armed, or not one is obligated to act responsibly in public. It’s a good idea to do the same in private as well. As to what constitutes him screaming at her... That’s subjective, and we have no idea if she was “screaming” at him in kind. Nor who “screamed” first.
As for doing this while her boyfriend was coming out of the store... It’s unlikely that the victim knew he was being approached by her boyfriend. Otherwise he would likely have made some move to defend himself against an approaching threat. As for the assailaints moral high ground... Muh dicking for your girlfriend gets no traction. He could have just as easily displayed his virtue by telling the driver not to park in the handicapped spot.
And for those bleeding hearts who assume the assailants location indicated the assault was over... You‘re merely speculating. The assault is only over when the assailant decides its over; or when he’s rendered incapable of furthering the assault. The victim made the choice in this case, by opting for choice two.

Yes, and by repeatedly being aggressive and armed, death was the eventual outcome, which is why it was murder. That isn't how you act when you're armed

Being armed has nothing to do with how you should act.

Sure as shit does. I carry concealed and I definitely am not going to inject myself into confrontations for this very reason

Thank you. I can't believe any second amendment supporter wouldn't feel that way.

And in this case, the shooter did more than interject himself into a confrontation, he started it by yelling at the woman in the parking lot.

I always argue to leftists that they don't have actual standards because they only apply their standards to Republicans, never themselves. A standard is something you apply to yourself first, or it's just an attack, not a standard.

That's why I won't back down from the argument that if you're carrying, you have a responsibility to take all reasonable measures to avoid conflicts and you only produce the gun when you can't. Screaming at another guy's woman in a parking lot because you don't like where she parked isn't it

His actions are so out of line with responsible gun carry I cannot outright dismiss the suggestion that he was itching for something like this. Hope it wasn’t so, but if not, what was he thinking?

Well, he was carrying and starting confrontation after confrontation with people over where they parked. Obviously that was going to end in a shooting. It's hard to believe he didn't realize that

 

[Skull Pilot]

I'm of the mind that you don't assault people
I don't care that people who assault others get dead

Again, so do you believe in the Constitution or not? I want to make sure to hold you to this.

The constitution has nothing to do with it

The 8th amendment applies to bail and sentences passed by the government

Yeah, the punishment should fit the crime. You are fucking arguing that the guy deserved the death penalty for pushing the guy down. You fucking believe in the Constitution or not. It's based on the same principle.

WTF? You don't even know what the Constitution is, Democrats never do. The Constitution is a limitation on government. Where the fuck do you get that the bill of rights are powers of government? That's completely moronic.

Murder is State law, not Federal law

What in the fuck are you talking about? I never said murder was a federal law. However the 8th Amendment gives citizens protection against cruel and unusual punishment.

Yeah protection from the government not other citizens

 

[OODA_Loop]

Well, he was carrying and starting confrontation after confrontation with people over where they parked. Obviously that was going to end in a shooting. It's hard to believe he didn't realize that

But it didn't until someone assaulted him.

 

[kaz]

Nothing, I never said it did. Actually, you brought this up in our discussion about murder, not me.

Fact: Blacks kill more whites than whites kill blacks

LewDemocrat: OMG, whites have a race issue

That's what makes no sense

No I didn't. I said people like this guy have been over-reacting because of race a lot in all kinds of situations.

Fact, Blacks kill more Blacks than Blacks kill Whites. Now another thing, and this is the last I'll say, the percentage of Whites killed by Blacks, compared to Blacks killed by Whites, isn't that big of a gap, and to be quite honest, it could very easily be made up by the fact that a lot of Black deaths go unsolved because the cops don't care to put as much resources towards finding the killer unless they are someone of importance.

Now that's a fact. The less money you make, if you are a minority, and if you live in an urban area, the less police resources that will be used to solve your murder.

Fact, blacks kill more whites than whites kill blacks. Stop diverting. How do you get out that the issue is ... whites being racist?

You're just a typical Democrat race whore. Blacks aren't racist because only whites are racist. You know that because you're not a racist ...

Statistics say that. Murder statistics especially when it comes to who committed them, are about the least reliable statistic there is. Now you've seemed to have some reasoning and common sense in this thread, so I'm sure you can figure out why murder statistics when it comes to who committed the murders are hard to figure out.

Statistics say that when blacks murder more whites than whites murder blacks, the issue is racist whites. And I called you a race whore. Nailed it!

Obviously you don't understand murder statistics along with sexual assault statistics will NEVER be correct. Do you have any idea how many murders go unsolved per year? And do you know who happens to make up the demographic of most of those unsolved murders?

Guess what? If you can't solve a murder, then you can't assign the demographic of the murderer. Even worse yet, do you know how many missing people go unfound every year?

Now those are REAL statistics.

What does it have to do with your Democrat party plan of only disarming honest citizens while doing nothing about the criminals?

 

[Skull Pilot]

i understand the difference. It can cause death and its used as force....its lethal force.

Yeah, no. Nobodys ever been convicted of attempted murder for pushing someone down. If a push results in a death its also not murder, its involuntary manslaughter by virtue of a push NOT being considered lethal in intent.

Give it a fuckin break...an obsessive compulsive threatening to shoot people over a damn parking spot being pushed away from a woman and children is what youre defending as cause for murder in spite of the pusher doing what any grown man should do to a nutbag approaching his family


you perhaps dont belong owning deadly weaponry, either. life is more valuable than a killing in retaliation for a push.

Bam! Perfectly stated

Im pro gun rights but the mentality of anyone thinking this is OK makes me question being pretty pro regulation...I dunno. Its def. a downer that people are so irrational like that.

I'm of the mind that you don't assault people
I don't care that people who assault others get dead

You're just the hero who would let psychotic men scream at your wife in parking lots. I actually doubt your story you would do that.

The psycho who murdered him staged the event and repeated it until he got what he wanted, to kill someone. If you repeatedly yell at people for where they park, someone will respond. No responsible gun owner would ever condone a trap that is certain to end in a shooting. Then there's you ...

I would have left the parking lot if it were me. My wife would have done the same.
See I am a CCW permit holder and I make it a point not to escalate situations.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Bam! Perfectly stated

Im pro gun rights but the mentality of anyone thinking this is OK makes me question being pretty pro regulation...I dunno. Its def. a downer that people are so irrational like that.

Well, notice that the majority of second amendment supporters are not on the side of the shooter.

But yes, that this many people would argue that yelling at a woman over where she parked while packing is not an unreasonably dangerous situation to create is a bit scary

I haven’t heard a single poster endorse the confrontation of the woman, who parked in the handicapped spot.

it wasn't a crime so it doesn't matter

It doesn't matter if a psycho man screams at your wife in a parking lot. You are so full of shit

No it doesn't

I'm not going to assault a person for yelling nor would my wife want me to.

 

[kaz]

Big difference between yelling and assault.
And as I said earlier all involved are idiots.
From the chick on down to the shooter.

I agree. But only one decided to raise the stakes to violence. And it cost him his life...

So you are saying if a guy with a gun was standing outside the car your wife and kids are sitting in and yelling at them, you'd not do anything about it?

I sure as fuck wouldnt assault him!!!
Thats a good way to get shot.......oh wait.

It's also a good way to get shot standing outside someone's wife's car yelling at her for where she parked. Or in this case, it's a good way to get to shoot someone, which was his goal

No...that would be murder.

Yes, it was murder. That's my point. I carry, and I badly want to avoid ever using my gun. I don't view life as a video game where the goal is to kill someone and have it legally justified so you don't get in trouble. The guilt that I staged the shooting would haunt me forever. That's what awaits this guy if he has a soul.

When he carried and repeatedly initiated aggression, a shooting was going to happen. Yes, it was murder

 

[Skull Pilot]

They don't share the same principal at all.

The guy who shot in what he considered to be self defense after being blindsided by a much larger person will not be charged with violating the 8th amendment.

He will be charged with some degree of murder and tried for it.

If he can justify the shooting he will walk

They don't? If you break the law, the punishment you receive is dictated by the Bill of Rights in the 8th Amendment that you can not receive a punishment that the courts rule are cruel and unusual compared to the severity of the crime. That's EXACTLY the same principle. But see the issue here is you are a hypocrite that lacks morals. You'd rather defend and try to scapegoat a murderer, instead of admitting a legal gun carrying citizen abused his right.

No it's not it's dictated by the laws and statutes of the state the crime was committed in

Wow. The Bill of Rights has power over the states given to it by Due Process through the 14th Amendment.

Our educational system is seriously failing our country. Some of the stuff in this thread EVERY citizen in this country should know in order to be able to vote.

I cannot violate your 8th amendment rights, Idiot

Only the government can violate your 8th amendment rights

You dumbfuck. I've told you at least 3 times now I never said that. I said they share the same PRINCIPLE. If you agree with the Constitution which gives citizens protection against cruel and unusual punishment, then in life, if you don't feel the same way, you are a hypocrite, which you've proven.

You said that the guy DESERVED TO DIE, for committing simple assault by pushing the guy to the ground. The punishment does not fit the crime.

All right FUCK WAD

quote the post where I said he deserved to die

 

[kaz]

Big difference between yelling and assault.
And as I said earlier all involved are idiots.
From the chick on down to the shooter.

I agree. But only one decided to raise the stakes to violence. And it cost him his life...

So you are saying if a guy with a gun was standing outside the car your wife and kids are sitting in and yelling at them, you'd not do anything about it?

If he was just yelling?

I would have ignored him

If he put his hands on them or tried to open the car doors that's a different story

You'd ignore some nutcase yelling at your family for where you parked, but if he touched you, you'd waste him. I'd say that's a good argument, but wow, it's not

Lets not forget about the children in the car. What if he would have been off balance when he made one of those shots and hit one of those kids?

Does shit for brains Florida law still protect him?

The bottom line here is a man defending a woman and children is dead, and Florida law protects the shooter.

The shooter is not only a coward, but in the eyes of those children, whom he has now terrorized for life, is a murderer, but in any grown ass man with a pair is a coward and a murderer, and in the eyes of God is a murderer.

In the eyes of Florida is a hero. But then lets consider who we're discussing here.

I disagree on your accusations about Florida law. This isn't a stand your ground situation. This was a staged situation by the shooter. It was murder

 

[Lewdog]

No I didn't. I said people like this guy have been over-reacting because of race a lot in all kinds of situations.

Fact, Blacks kill more Blacks than Blacks kill Whites. Now another thing, and this is the last I'll say, the percentage of Whites killed by Blacks, compared to Blacks killed by Whites, isn't that big of a gap, and to be quite honest, it could very easily be made up by the fact that a lot of Black deaths go unsolved because the cops don't care to put as much resources towards finding the killer unless they are someone of importance.

Now that's a fact. The less money you make, if you are a minority, and if you live in an urban area, the less police resources that will be used to solve your murder.

Fact, blacks kill more whites than whites kill blacks. Stop diverting. How do you get out that the issue is ... whites being racist?

You're just a typical Democrat race whore. Blacks aren't racist because only whites are racist. You know that because you're not a racist ...

Statistics say that. Murder statistics especially when it comes to who committed them, are about the least reliable statistic there is. Now you've seemed to have some reasoning and common sense in this thread, so I'm sure you can figure out why murder statistics when it comes to who committed the murders are hard to figure out.

Statistics say that when blacks murder more whites than whites murder blacks, the issue is racist whites. And I called you a race whore. Nailed it!

Obviously you don't understand murder statistics along with sexual assault statistics will NEVER be correct. Do you have any idea how many murders go unsolved per year? And do you know who happens to make up the demographic of most of those unsolved murders?

Guess what? If you can't solve a murder, then you can't assign the demographic of the murderer. Even worse yet, do you know how many missing people go unfound every year?

Now those are REAL statistics.

What does it have to do with your Democrat party plan of only disarming honest citizens while doing nothing about the criminals?

I don't have a fucking clue what you are talking about. First, I'm not a Democrat. Secondly I'm not for disarming honest citizens.

I'm for common sense laws like not letting fucking people like those getting Federal disability for a mental condition being allowed to buy guns for one... which was the VERY first executive order Trump signed when he became President.

 

[kaz]

Big difference between yelling and assault.
And as I said earlier all involved are idiots.
From the chick on down to the shooter.

I agree. But only one decided to raise the stakes to violence. And it cost him his life...

So you are saying if a guy with a gun was standing outside the car your wife and kids are sitting in and yelling at them, you'd not do anything about it?

If he was just yelling?

I would have ignored him

If he put his hands on them or tried to open the car doors that's a different story

You'd ignore some nutcase yelling at your family for where you parked, but if he touched you, you'd waste him. I'd say that's a good argument, but wow, it's not

Whats so hard to understand? Yelling you leave,manhandling they get shot.

How do you just leave when he's screaming at your wife with your kids there over where you parked?

I hope you're never in that situation because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I haven't either, and hope I never will be.

But the murderer staged a situation by being armed and initiating aggression and repeating it until he got what he wanted

 

[OODA_Loop]

I disagree on your accusations about Florida law. This isn't a stand your ground situation. This was a staged situation by the shooter. It was murder

So the sheriff is wrong ?

 

[kaz]

I'd escalate the situation by not screaming at another guy's woman in a parking lot while I'm packing? Seriously? How does that make sense?

Big difference between yelling and assault.
And as I said earlier all involved are idiots.
From the chick on down to the shooter.

Big difference between pushing someone who's screaming at your woman and shooting the guy who pushed you

Speech is not assault.

I never said it was "assault," so?

So they guy had no reason to assault the shooter?

You're word parsing