Keeping guns from criminals - liberals, what is your plan?

[frigidweirdo]

That just doesn't work. These 3rd world countries have extreme gun control laws....more laws and less access to guns by regular people...and you guys say that this will make them less violent and reduce their gun murder rate...and it just doesn't.

And again, European culture has a different history than the United States, we were not exposed to the class system of feudalism, or the devestation of the two World Wars.....and we didn't send 12 million innocent men, women and children to death camps. They store up their killing and let it all out at once. And as has been pointed out, if you take out democrat inner cities our crime rate is the same or lower than Europe....and don't get to happy, they are importing violent people from muslim countries...their crime rates are going up.....

Third world countries are different to first world countries. Many third world countries will have laws in place but not the money to actually put this in place. You look at prisons in third world countries and some of them are literally communities run by the criminals. As long as they stay inside away from the public no one cares.

Also third world countries have worse education, and depending on the country different situation.

For example, last year I was in southern Africa. South Africa is hell. It's like being in a dangerous US city only worse. Jo'burg is a "get out of here as quickly as you can" place. Even Cape Town is dodgy at the wrong time of day. Guns are there, knives are there. Chances of getting robbed or killed are quite high.

Then you go to next door neighbor Mozambique and the police rule. They walk around with guns, crime exists but much less so than South Africa. In fact you're always worried about the police getting you, not the criminals, especially in Maputo. Away from the cities, beach areas or whatever and you're fine.

But these are two countries with two situations, one with much less crime than the other, still high crime, still poverty, still inequality, still problems, but the governments and situations are completely different. South Africa, former British colony which had Apartheid where the whites ruled, then there was major bitterness. In Mozambique the Portuguese ruled but when independence happened the whites got the hell out of there and this caused other problems, then there was civil war. Even when I was there it was impossible to travel through the center of the country, unless you went in military convoy.

You have so many factors that make the difference in these poor countries, but there still remain constants which mean you cannot compare high crime rates and so on with first world countries and third world countries. Situations are too different, so many things to talk about, so much history that you don't get a sense of the US's crime rate when comparing.

You do when you compare with other first world countries. Mostly Western Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. Even comparing with Hong Kong, Japan and Singapore is a little strange just because of the culture in these countries which means you get less crime as a rule anyway.

So, you said more laws and less access to guns makes crime lower. Again, third world countries. Many laws aren't enforced, do they have less guns? Again, depends on the country. In SA there are probably the same amount of guns as in the US.
Places which had civil wars will probably have high numbers of guns in their society. Any country close to these countries may also have high levels of guns.

I wouldn't advise, but just pointing out that you haven't even made a comparison with any country, you've not shown there are less guns, or more guns laws, or that they are enforced. You're simply making generalisations based on nothing, which isn't helpful here.

Yes, European history is different to US history. Your point however was that European history was more pacific. Not so.

WW2 saw scorched Earth policies in many places. Cities were bombed to hell. The US got hit in Hawaii and maybe some small problems on the East Coast. Doesn't compare.

Most European countries have had their civil wars. Spain in the 1930s was very brutal.

No, the US hasn't had a feudal class system. However it has had a class system with slaves at the bottom along with Native Americans and other blacks, with White Anglo Saxon Protestants at the top. Different, but not totally so. The US was a European invention by "Europeans" who were over in the Americas. Still Americans are more European than they are anything else. It's been a branch off, not a total separation. Much of the immigration has been from Europeans, even now the Mexican influx is from a country that was colonied by the Spanish and made more European than it would otherwise have been had it remained Aztec or whatever.

You're making claims that aren't standing up.

The problems in the US might be due to cultural differences, but this has nothing to do with Feudalism, or class or any of that.

A lot of the problems in the US have to do with the system of slavery and the white dominance over other races and the racism that has grown with the US, changed with time from slavery to segregation to what we have now which is unofficial racism in many places, especially the Deep South. But also the resolute determination of such people to stop blacks and others from rising up. Changed from out right racism to more keeping the poor where they are, because the poor are a higher percentage of blacks and hispanics etc.

There you have problems. And there is where I say the US needs to solve many of these problems. But, the murder rate is still much, MUCH higher than other European countries which have governed themselves with far more sensibility towards poorer people.

In Europe most countries have had some kind of working man's party. In the US this has been stifled by the rich, made not to happen. And this is causing so many problems.

 

[kaz]

My current plan is to end the Prohibition of our War on Drugs.

Prohibition's supporters were initially surprised by what did not come to pass during the dry era. When the law went into effect, they expected sales of clothing and household goods to skyrocket. Real estate developers and landlords expected rents to rise as saloons closed and neighborhoods improved. Chewing gum, grape juice, and soft drink companies all expected growth. Theater producers expected new crowds as Americans looked for new ways to entertain themselves without alcohol. None of it came to pass.

...

The effects of Prohibition on law enforcement were also negative. The sums of money being exchanged during the dry era proved a corrupting influence in both the federal Bureau of Prohibition and at the state and local level. Police officers and Prohibition agents alike were frequently tempted by bribes or the lucrative opportunity to go into bootlegging themselves. Many stayed honest, but enough succumbed to the temptation that the stereotype of the corrupt Prohibition agent or local cop undermined public trust in law enforcement for the duration of the era.

The growth of the illegal liquor trade under Prohibition made criminals of millions of Americans. As the decade progressed, court rooms and jails overflowed, and the legal system failed to keep up. Many defendants in prohibition cases waited over a year to be brought to trial. As the backlog of cases increased, the judicial system turned to the "plea bargain" to clear hundreds of cases at a time, making a it common practice in American jurisprudence for the first time.

...
Source: Prohibition Unintended Consequences PBS

Just to educate you on one difference between the Canadian and English languages, what you said is actually that you support the war on drugs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you meant you are against the war on drugs

No, what I said was,
My current plan is to end the Prohibition of our War on Drugs.

Here is the simpler version for the Right, if not the South:

My current plan is to end the Prohibition (of our current regime) of our War on Drugs.

Canadian is a very strange language. In English you keep repeating you are in favor of the war on drugs

No Thing but diversion as that form of fallacy and error in reasoning, Person on the clueless and Causeless, Right?

Does that even mean anything in Canadian?

 

[kaz]

So, if the U.S. has the world's highest incarceration rate, and the world's highest gun ownership , why doesn't it have the world's lowest crime rate?


Sent from my tree hut on my day off.

Again, crime dropped with incarceration rates rising, so your point is?

Also, why did most mass shootings happen in gun free zones? Virginia Tech, Columbine, Aurora, Sandy Hook, even the Washington Navy yard, a military property where guns were prohibited by Slick Willy.

Then there's the ridiculous assumption that a complicated problem boils down to only those two variables, neither of which contradicts my statement.

You aren't doing well. You may want to stay in the treehouse

That doesn't explain the whole story:

Do crime reduction efforts — like building more prisons — really pay?

If you think dramatically lowering violent crime rates constitutes "pay" then yes. I happen to think dramatically lowering violent crime rates is a big deal, so my answer to that is yes. Maybe you only care when it happens to you or someone you care about, that's for you to say

A new national study says that states with the biggest jumps in incarceration levels have not shown corresponding drops in crime, compared to states with smaller increases in their population behind bars... Source: Incarceration Rate Crime Drop Link Disputed - ABC News

I see, so you aren't interested in overall statistics, you want to try to slice and dice your way to more violent crime. Nice guy you are

 

[frigidweirdo]

Gotcha, it's our job to motivate and engage criminals, not their job. Yeah, that's going to work.

One key thing you are oblivious to is the incredible diversity in this country. Comparing us to places like Iceland with far more homogeneous populations is preposterous.

One thing you are right about is the best way to keep guns from criminals is to keep them locked up

It's a choice really.

Very few children are born to be criminals. Very few would make it as a criminal under every circumstance possible. Many end up there because of circumstances.

What's happened in the US is that in certain areas of the country, especially inner city areas, especially minority areas, the family unit has broken down to such a point, not just on an individual basis, but literally over large areas as the norm, that the US is seeing the negative effects of this.

You look at Europe and see how Europeans have been pro-active and made sure this sort of thing didn't happen. It was going that way, industalisation era Britain and other European countries would have been pretty similar to the US. The attitude in the US, the same attitude you have, one of "everyone can make it in the US" is simply designed to stop something good from happening.

It's not even criminals you should be motivating and engaging, it's kids. And that's not happening, especially in areas with high single parent families, bad gang problems, poor education. These are the future criminals and the US in BREEDING criminals so it can then have not the 2nd highest prison population but the highest.


You claim I'm oblivious to diversity. As if diversity has created all these problems. It's not so. London has diversity on a massive scale.

36.7% of the population was foreign born in 2011.
60% of London is white British, Asian 13%, Black 10%. Newham in London is 29% white, 20% black, 43% Asian. Lewisham is 27% black, 10% Asian, 53% white. Havering is 88% white, 5% black, 5% Asian.

You have different areas, some have majority Asian, some have a lot of black, though no majority of the population.

London has diversity.

Compare this to New York.
36% of the city is foreign born. 44.6% white, 25% black, 27% Hispanic, 11% Asian.

There's a difference. A higher population of non-white people in New York, but diversity exists in both. A look at some areas and you'd see something similar in London and in New York. Some places would be mainly white, others mainly not white.

You'd find things similar in many British cities, Paris and other places.

London also had problems with gangs. But the difference is that London became pro-active about it, making sure schools were playing their part, making sure people got behind programs to reduce gun and knife crime, to get behind programs to get rid of gangs or reduce their impact and so on.

Just looking at the US and saying "ow, nothing can be done" is not only trying to make sure nothing can be done, but also very ignorant.

You say the best way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals is to keep them locked up. With 707 people out of every 100,000 locked up, costing a ton of money for every person, and still many criminals still have guns and many murders are still happening, how many people are you going to need locked up?

Wouldn't it be cheaper to spend the money on decent education, decent after school programs, on programs to help people choose their relationships better, on programs to give kids skills so they can work, then maybe you would have more tax paying people and less people sponging off the state stuck in prison?

Or is that just too hard for the people of the US to be able to do?

So you're thinking we remove children from homes we think could end up being criminal? Of all you throw out, specifics are in very short supply

I agree that hope and opportunity are key to changing lives, I don't get how we accomplish that and you aren't providing any specifics

I'm not sure why you're replying to yourself. However I'm not thinking of removing children, so I don't know where you got that idea from, so I'll ignore it.

As for how to accomplish this, I've suggested this sort of stuff before. It's complex, but the main point is that it requires politicians to actually give a damn, instead of pretending that everyone can make it with hard work sort of thing that completely avoids the issues.

But the US seems to have reached the point where people are all in it for themselves and are tearing the country apart for self interest.

So you have zero idea how you'd do it, you just expect politicians to figure it out and people to not be responsible for themselves. Yes, that is typically a recipe for success

Oh, jeez, sounds like all you want to do is win. This is like being in a pathetic high school argument. You're boring me.

 

[kaz]

No, democrats have gained control of inner cities....they destroy education, business and increase the crime rate....stop voting in democrats and all of those concerns will improve.

A) I don't vote Democrat, B) I don't believe you. Republicans are the same as Democrats. Republicans haven't improved education the same as the Democrats haven't improved education.

Blame Democrats where it's deserved, but don't ignore blaming Republicans just because you've decided they're "your team" and you'll support them no matter what.

Education is a mess in the US, and it benefits the rich who send their kids to private education.

Republicans are pushing this stupid education voucher scheme which is just a "if you send your kids to private school, we'll give you money for it", which clearly only benefits rich people.

Republicans and Democrats are the same, you got that right. Republicans talk about smaller government and spend like Democrats, Democrats talk about avoiding using the military and attack other countries as freely as Republicans. It's back and forth, no difference. I left the Republican circa 1990, they have given me zero reason to come back

 

[kaz]

It's a choice really.

Very few children are born to be criminals. Very few would make it as a criminal under every circumstance possible. Many end up there because of circumstances.

What's happened in the US is that in certain areas of the country, especially inner city areas, especially minority areas, the family unit has broken down to such a point, not just on an individual basis, but literally over large areas as the norm, that the US is seeing the negative effects of this.

You look at Europe and see how Europeans have been pro-active and made sure this sort of thing didn't happen. It was going that way, industalisation era Britain and other European countries would have been pretty similar to the US. The attitude in the US, the same attitude you have, one of "everyone can make it in the US" is simply designed to stop something good from happening.

It's not even criminals you should be motivating and engaging, it's kids. And that's not happening, especially in areas with high single parent families, bad gang problems, poor education. These are the future criminals and the US in BREEDING criminals so it can then have not the 2nd highest prison population but the highest.


You claim I'm oblivious to diversity. As if diversity has created all these problems. It's not so. London has diversity on a massive scale.

36.7% of the population was foreign born in 2011.
60% of London is white British, Asian 13%, Black 10%. Newham in London is 29% white, 20% black, 43% Asian. Lewisham is 27% black, 10% Asian, 53% white. Havering is 88% white, 5% black, 5% Asian.

You have different areas, some have majority Asian, some have a lot of black, though no majority of the population.

London has diversity.

Compare this to New York.
36% of the city is foreign born. 44.6% white, 25% black, 27% Hispanic, 11% Asian.

There's a difference. A higher population of non-white people in New York, but diversity exists in both. A look at some areas and you'd see something similar in London and in New York. Some places would be mainly white, others mainly not white.

You'd find things similar in many British cities, Paris and other places.

London also had problems with gangs. But the difference is that London became pro-active about it, making sure schools were playing their part, making sure people got behind programs to reduce gun and knife crime, to get behind programs to get rid of gangs or reduce their impact and so on.

Just looking at the US and saying "ow, nothing can be done" is not only trying to make sure nothing can be done, but also very ignorant.

You say the best way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals is to keep them locked up. With 707 people out of every 100,000 locked up, costing a ton of money for every person, and still many criminals still have guns and many murders are still happening, how many people are you going to need locked up?

Wouldn't it be cheaper to spend the money on decent education, decent after school programs, on programs to help people choose their relationships better, on programs to give kids skills so they can work, then maybe you would have more tax paying people and less people sponging off the state stuck in prison?

Or is that just too hard for the people of the US to be able to do?

So you're thinking we remove children from homes we think could end up being criminal? Of all you throw out, specifics are in very short supply

I agree that hope and opportunity are key to changing lives, I don't get how we accomplish that and you aren't providing any specifics

I'm not sure why you're replying to yourself. However I'm not thinking of removing children, so I don't know where you got that idea from, so I'll ignore it.

As for how to accomplish this, I've suggested this sort of stuff before. It's complex, but the main point is that it requires politicians to actually give a damn, instead of pretending that everyone can make it with hard work sort of thing that completely avoids the issues.

But the US seems to have reached the point where people are all in it for themselves and are tearing the country apart for self interest.

So you have zero idea how you'd do it, you just expect politicians to figure it out and people to not be responsible for themselves. Yes, that is typically a recipe for success

Oh, jeez, sounds like all you want to do is win. This is like being in a pathetic high school argument. You're boring me.

There is nothing to "win." You keep making sweeping statements like you want criminals to have fewer guns and criminals and their children would commit fewer crimes if they had a stake in society, but you've offered zero to do that. Saying politicans don't give a shit while being true is still on the specific level a flat liner. You have offered nothing to debate.

I stipulate that I want criminals and their families to have a greater stake in society. I stipulate that politicians don't give a shit. I stipulate to that I want criminals to have fewer guns. Now what if you move from there to some actual ideas to actually accomplish any of those? What do you think?

 

[frigidweirdo]

So you're thinking we remove children from homes we think could end up being criminal? Of all you throw out, specifics are in very short supply

I agree that hope and opportunity are key to changing lives, I don't get how we accomplish that and you aren't providing any specifics

I'm not sure why you're replying to yourself. However I'm not thinking of removing children, so I don't know where you got that idea from, so I'll ignore it.

As for how to accomplish this, I've suggested this sort of stuff before. It's complex, but the main point is that it requires politicians to actually give a damn, instead of pretending that everyone can make it with hard work sort of thing that completely avoids the issues.

But the US seems to have reached the point where people are all in it for themselves and are tearing the country apart for self interest.

So you have zero idea how you'd do it, you just expect politicians to figure it out and people to not be responsible for themselves. Yes, that is typically a recipe for success

Oh, jeez, sounds like all you want to do is win. This is like being in a pathetic high school argument. You're boring me.

There is nothing to "win." You keep making sweeping statements like you want criminals to have fewer guns and criminals and their children would commit fewer crimes if they had a stake in society, but you've offered zero to do that. Saying politicans don't give a shit while being true is still on the specific level a flat liner. You have offered nothing to debate.

I stipulate that I want criminals and their families to have a greater stake in society. I stipulate that politicians don't give a shit. I stipulate to that I want criminals to have fewer guns. Now what if you move from there to some actual ideas to actually accomplish any of those? What do you think?

I think you're criticising me for no reason other than for your own ego. I think you're criticizing me for having nothing when you have nothing, we call that hypocrisy, and I'm really not in the mood for troll posters right now.

 

[kaz]

I agree that hope and opportunity are key to changing lives, I don't get how we accomplish that and you aren't providing any specifics

I'm not sure why you're replying to yourself. However I'm not thinking of removing children, so I don't know where you got that idea from, so I'll ignore it.

As for how to accomplish this, I've suggested this sort of stuff before. It's complex, but the main point is that it requires politicians to actually give a damn, instead of pretending that everyone can make it with hard work sort of thing that completely avoids the issues.

But the US seems to have reached the point where people are all in it for themselves and are tearing the country apart for self interest.

So you have zero idea how you'd do it, you just expect politicians to figure it out and people to not be responsible for themselves. Yes, that is typically a recipe for success

Oh, jeez, sounds like all you want to do is win. This is like being in a pathetic high school argument. You're boring me.

There is nothing to "win." You keep making sweeping statements like you want criminals to have fewer guns and criminals and their children would commit fewer crimes if they had a stake in society, but you've offered zero to do that. Saying politicans don't give a shit while being true is still on the specific level a flat liner. You have offered nothing to debate.

I stipulate that I want criminals and their families to have a greater stake in society. I stipulate that politicians don't give a shit. I stipulate to that I want criminals to have fewer guns. Now what if you move from there to some actual ideas to actually accomplish any of those? What do you think?

I think you're criticising me for no reason other than for your own ego. I think you're criticizing me for having nothing when you have nothing, we call that hypocrisy, and I'm really not in the mood for troll posters right now.

Asking you to present actual ideas is trolling? That's ridiculous.

I started this thread with an actual question. How do you keep the guns out of the hands of criminals? High schoolers can get all the pot they want and it is actually illegal. There are guns everywhere both inside and outside the country. They are not high tech. Our borders are open. Criminals don't obey laws. You posted in the thread, which is cool, but you just keep saying goals that we all agree on. The question is how we actually accomplish those though. All you said is that politicians don't care, but it's their job to solve the problem. I agree on the first part of that, the second will never happen.

So let me phrase it this way. If you were a politician, how would you propose to the rest of the politicians to address the problem? ... How ... would you engage criminals and their families in the economy so they commit fewer crimes to start with? ... How ... would you keep guns away from criminals? Obviously laws don't work, registration doesn't work, so how would you actually do it?

I would love to just discuss this with you, but I need more than 50K feet of objective, what is wrong with asking you for actual plans and proposals exactly?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Asking you to present actual ideas is trolling? That's ridiculous.

I started this thread with an actual question. How do you keep the guns out of the hands of criminals? High schoolers can get all the pot they want and it is actually illegal. There are guns everywhere both inside and outside the country. They are not high tech. Our borders are open. Criminals don't obey laws. You posted in the thread, which is cool, but you just keep saying goals that we all agree on. The question is how we actually accomplish those though. All you said is that politicians don't care, but it's their job to solve the problem. I agree on the first part of that, the second will never happen.

So let me phrase it this way. If you were a politician, how would you propose to the rest of the politicians to address the problem? ... How ... would you engage criminals and their families in the economy so they commit fewer crimes to start with? ... How ... would you keep guns away from criminals? Obviously laws don't work, registration doesn't work, so how would you actually do it?

I would love to just discuss this with you, but I need more than 50K feet of objective, what is wrong with asking you for actual plans and proposals exactly?

What is trolling is telling me I have zero ideas. I don't expect you to have read every post on this forum that I have written. However I would expect you to accept that there is a lot of what I have written here, or said in my life, or whatever, that you don't know about.
Making a silly statement telling me I have zero was not designed to actually get me to say what I believe, but more for that ego massage you wanted to give yourself.

I do keep saying the politicians are not doing anything, because no matter what ideas you do have, you can't get them through anyway.
But, again, you're telling me I have ideas, then you're saying I'm criticising the politicians then saying I don't have ideas. I don't get what the feck you're talking about.

But I'll answer your question and ignore the guff.

First, get education to be about educating kids, and by kids I mean ALL KIDS, in to being good adults of the country with skills they can use to get themselves jobs.
This would involve classes which would deal with things like how to choose a partner who is good for you, how to look after a child effectively, how to understand what you're taking if you take drugs, both legal and illegal, how to deal with other people, how to understand other people.
Also skills would be at the forefront of education. Stuff English Literature and History and all these traditional subjects. All subjects like this would be the platform with which to pass on skills that are essential in modern life.
Schools would also be split up, somehow, into technical, academic and other which focus kids, especially teenagers, towards a career. So, some kids might go and "major" (so to speak) in construction work. They'd learn how to lay bricks, or do more complex things. Learning other important skills like literacy, math, science would be based around the subject they are doing, rather than just general generic stuff.

Also, education would target poorer communities which have major problems in society. After school programs would be made effective, keeping kids focused on education and their career ahead, possibly sending them out as 14, 15, 16 year olds etc to get on the job experience, to see what it's like to be a worker.
Also schools in poorer areas would be targeted to get standards up. Teachers would have to meet certain standards of teaching in order to be able to do their job. (which in turn would mean a change in the way teachers's contracts and unions work).
Education in prisons would also be a big thing, getting those who have already missed the boat back on track, reducing reoffending rates, making sure ex-criminals who leave prison can get work with the skills that they have learned in prison, even if it is for a lower wage initially.

The you have the police who would target, in many ways, the poorer areas too. The first is in making sure the police and the communities are working together, rather than feeling they are separate from one another. Then making sure kids are aware of the consequences of prison.

I'd even be open to some kind of military intervention in education. Kids who are in gangs, who are having major problems, in single parent families where the parent is struggling etc, can have the kid sent off to some kind of boot camp which leads to a potential career in the military if they manage to come out of it doing well.

Even youth sections of the military in inner cities and poorer areas taking part in the post school educating.


The goal would be to get adults who can work, adults who can get jobs, adults who have the skills needed, in order for them to have purpose in life. Give kids from inner city areas the same chances as kids from rich families.

People pay their tax money for a mass education system, not for "their kid to get a good education", and a mass education system should benefit all, not just the few. So things like school vouchers would simply be made illegal.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Asking you to present actual ideas is trolling? That's ridiculous.

I started this thread with an actual question. How do you keep the guns out of the hands of criminals? High schoolers can get all the pot they want and it is actually illegal. There are guns everywhere both inside and outside the country. They are not high tech. Our borders are open. Criminals don't obey laws. You posted in the thread, which is cool, but you just keep saying goals that we all agree on. The question is how we actually accomplish those though. All you said is that politicians don't care, but it's their job to solve the problem. I agree on the first part of that, the second will never happen.

So let me phrase it this way. If you were a politician, how would you propose to the rest of the politicians to address the problem? ... How ... would you engage criminals and their families in the economy so they commit fewer crimes to start with? ... How ... would you keep guns away from criminals? Obviously laws don't work, registration doesn't work, so how would you actually do it?

I would love to just discuss this with you, but I need more than 50K feet of objective, what is wrong with asking you for actual plans and proposals exactly?

What is trolling is telling me I have zero ideas. I don't expect you to have read every post on this forum that I have written. However I would expect you to accept that there is a lot of what I have written here, or said in my life, or whatever, that you don't know about.
Making a silly statement telling me I have zero was not designed to actually get me to say what I believe, but more for that ego massage you wanted to give yourself.

I do keep saying the politicians are not doing anything, because no matter what ideas you do have, you can't get them through anyway.
But, again, you're telling me I have ideas, then you're saying I'm criticising the politicians then saying I don't have ideas. I don't get what the feck you're talking about.

But I'll answer your question and ignore the guff.

First, get education to be about educating kids, and by kids I mean ALL KIDS, in to being good adults of the country with skills they can use to get themselves jobs.
This would involve classes which would deal with things like how to choose a partner who is good for you, how to look after a child effectively, how to understand what you're taking if you take drugs, both legal and illegal, how to deal with other people, how to understand other people.
Also skills would be at the forefront of education. Stuff English Literature and History and all these traditional subjects. All subjects like this would be the platform with which to pass on skills that are essential in modern life.
Schools would also be split up, somehow, into technical, academic and other which focus kids, especially teenagers, towards a career. So, some kids might go and "major" (so to speak) in construction work. They'd learn how to lay bricks, or do more complex things. Learning other important skills like literacy, math, science would be based around the subject they are doing, rather than just general generic stuff.

Also, education would target poorer communities which have major problems in society. After school programs would be made effective, keeping kids focused on education and their career ahead, possibly sending them out as 14, 15, 16 year olds etc to get on the job experience, to see what it's like to be a worker.
Also schools in poorer areas would be targeted to get standards up. Teachers would have to meet certain standards of teaching in order to be able to do their job. (which in turn would mean a change in the way teachers's contracts and unions work).
Education in prisons would also be a big thing, getting those who have already missed the boat back on track, reducing reoffending rates, making sure ex-criminals who leave prison can get work with the skills that they have learned in prison, even if it is for a lower wage initially.

The you have the police who would target, in many ways, the poorer areas too. The first is in making sure the police and the communities are working together, rather than feeling they are separate from one another. Then making sure kids are aware of the consequences of prison.

I'd even be open to some kind of military intervention in education. Kids who are in gangs, who are having major problems, in single parent families where the parent is struggling etc, can have the kid sent off to some kind of boot camp which leads to a potential career in the military if they manage to come out of it doing well.

Even youth sections of the military in inner cities and poorer areas taking part in the post school educating.


The goal would be to get adults who can work, adults who can get jobs, adults who have the skills needed, in order for them to have purpose in life. Give kids from inner city areas the same chances as kids from rich families.

People pay their tax money for a mass education system, not for "their kid to get a good education", and a mass education system should benefit all, not just the few. So things like school vouchers would simply be made illegal.

One's zip code is an excellent indicator of one's chances to become a contributing member of society.

Take a kid out of a poor neighborhood and put him in a middle class neighborhood.....and the chances that this kid becomes a burden on society go down exponentially.

Since we can't take all poor kids and move them in with rich kids.....we've got to find another way. How about making upward mobility MUCH more easily achieved?

If there weren't so many insecure people who were born and raised in some of the better zip codes......fooling themselves into believing that they got whet they are through hard work and great choices....and refusing to acknowledge that they were simply fortunate.....we might have already done what is needed.

Studies Suggest Economic Inequity Is Built Into and Worsened by School Systems

 

[kaz]

Asking you to present actual ideas is trolling? That's ridiculous.

I started this thread with an actual question. How do you keep the guns out of the hands of criminals? High schoolers can get all the pot they want and it is actually illegal. There are guns everywhere both inside and outside the country. They are not high tech. Our borders are open. Criminals don't obey laws. You posted in the thread, which is cool, but you just keep saying goals that we all agree on. The question is how we actually accomplish those though. All you said is that politicians don't care, but it's their job to solve the problem. I agree on the first part of that, the second will never happen.

So let me phrase it this way. If you were a politician, how would you propose to the rest of the politicians to address the problem? ... How ... would you engage criminals and their families in the economy so they commit fewer crimes to start with? ... How ... would you keep guns away from criminals? Obviously laws don't work, registration doesn't work, so how would you actually do it?

I would love to just discuss this with you, but I need more than 50K feet of objective, what is wrong with asking you for actual plans and proposals exactly?

What is trolling is telling me I have zero ideas. I don't expect you to have read every post on this forum that I have written. However I would expect you to accept that there is a lot of what I have written here, or said in my life, or whatever, that you don't know about.
Making a silly statement telling me I have zero was not designed to actually get me to say what I believe, but more for that ego massage you wanted to give yourself.

I do keep saying the politicians are not doing anything, because no matter what ideas you do have, you can't get them through anyway.
But, again, you're telling me I have ideas, then you're saying I'm criticising the politicians then saying I don't have ideas. I don't get what the feck you're talking about.

But I'll answer your question and ignore the guff.

First, get education to be about educating kids, and by kids I mean ALL KIDS, in to being good adults of the country with skills they can use to get themselves jobs.
This would involve classes which would deal with things like how to choose a partner who is good for you, how to look after a child effectively, how to understand what you're taking if you take drugs, both legal and illegal, how to deal with other people, how to understand other people.
Also skills would be at the forefront of education. Stuff English Literature and History and all these traditional subjects. All subjects like this would be the platform with which to pass on skills that are essential in modern life.
Schools would also be split up, somehow, into technical, academic and other which focus kids, especially teenagers, towards a career. So, some kids might go and "major" (so to speak) in construction work. They'd learn how to lay bricks, or do more complex things. Learning other important skills like literacy, math, science would be based around the subject they are doing, rather than just general generic stuff.

Also, education would target poorer communities which have major problems in society. After school programs would be made effective, keeping kids focused on education and their career ahead, possibly sending them out as 14, 15, 16 year olds etc to get on the job experience, to see what it's like to be a worker.
Also schools in poorer areas would be targeted to get standards up. Teachers would have to meet certain standards of teaching in order to be able to do their job. (which in turn would mean a change in the way teachers's contracts and unions work).
Education in prisons would also be a big thing, getting those who have already missed the boat back on track, reducing reoffending rates, making sure ex-criminals who leave prison can get work with the skills that they have learned in prison, even if it is for a lower wage initially.

The you have the police who would target, in many ways, the poorer areas too. The first is in making sure the police and the communities are working together, rather than feeling they are separate from one another. Then making sure kids are aware of the consequences of prison.

I'd even be open to some kind of military intervention in education. Kids who are in gangs, who are having major problems, in single parent families where the parent is struggling etc, can have the kid sent off to some kind of boot camp which leads to a potential career in the military if they manage to come out of it doing well.

Even youth sections of the military in inner cities and poorer areas taking part in the post school educating.


The goal would be to get adults who can work, adults who can get jobs, adults who have the skills needed, in order for them to have purpose in life. Give kids from inner city areas the same chances as kids from rich families.

People pay their tax money for a mass education system, not for "their kid to get a good education", and a mass education system should benefit all, not just the few. So things like school vouchers would simply be made illegal.

One's zip code is an excellent indicator of one's chances to become a contributing member of society.

Take a kid out of a poor neighborhood and put him in a middle class neighborhood.....and the chances that this kid becomes a burden on society go down exponentially.

Since we can't take all poor kids and move them in with rich kids.....we've got to find another way. How about making upward mobility MUCH more easily achieved?

If there weren't so many insecure people who were born and raised in some of the better zip codes......fooling themselves into believing that they got whet they are through hard work and great choices....and refusing to acknowledge that they were simply fortunate.....we might have already done what is needed.

Studies Suggest Economic Inequity Is Built Into and Worsened by School Systems

I agree. Sadly it's your left who block parents of kids in bad neighborhoods from choosing to put their kids in better schools through vouchers and force them to stay in their crappy neighborhood schools

 

[kaz]

Asking you to present actual ideas is trolling? That's ridiculous.

I started this thread with an actual question. How do you keep the guns out of the hands of criminals? High schoolers can get all the pot they want and it is actually illegal. There are guns everywhere both inside and outside the country. They are not high tech. Our borders are open. Criminals don't obey laws. You posted in the thread, which is cool, but you just keep saying goals that we all agree on. The question is how we actually accomplish those though. All you said is that politicians don't care, but it's their job to solve the problem. I agree on the first part of that, the second will never happen.

So let me phrase it this way. If you were a politician, how would you propose to the rest of the politicians to address the problem? ... How ... would you engage criminals and their families in the economy so they commit fewer crimes to start with? ... How ... would you keep guns away from criminals? Obviously laws don't work, registration doesn't work, so how would you actually do it?

I would love to just discuss this with you, but I need more than 50K feet of objective, what is wrong with asking you for actual plans and proposals exactly?

What is trolling is telling me I have zero ideas. I don't expect you to have read every post on this forum that I have written. However I would expect you to accept that there is a lot of what I have written here, or said in my life, or whatever, that you don't know about.
Making a silly statement telling me I have zero was not designed to actually get me to say what I believe, but more for that ego massage you wanted to give yourself.

I do keep saying the politicians are not doing anything, because no matter what ideas you do have, you can't get them through anyway.
But, again, you're telling me I have ideas, then you're saying I'm criticising the politicians then saying I don't have ideas. I don't get what the feck you're talking about.

But I'll answer your question and ignore the guff.

First, get education to be about educating kids, and by kids I mean ALL KIDS, in to being good adults of the country with skills they can use to get themselves jobs.
This would involve classes which would deal with things like how to choose a partner who is good for you, how to look after a child effectively, how to understand what you're taking if you take drugs, both legal and illegal, how to deal with other people, how to understand other people.
Also skills would be at the forefront of education. Stuff English Literature and History and all these traditional subjects. All subjects like this would be the platform with which to pass on skills that are essential in modern life.
Schools would also be split up, somehow, into technical, academic and other which focus kids, especially teenagers, towards a career. So, some kids might go and "major" (so to speak) in construction work. They'd learn how to lay bricks, or do more complex things. Learning other important skills like literacy, math, science would be based around the subject they are doing, rather than just general generic stuff.

Also, education would target poorer communities which have major problems in society. After school programs would be made effective, keeping kids focused on education and their career ahead, possibly sending them out as 14, 15, 16 year olds etc to get on the job experience, to see what it's like to be a worker.
Also schools in poorer areas would be targeted to get standards up. Teachers would have to meet certain standards of teaching in order to be able to do their job. (which in turn would mean a change in the way teachers's contracts and unions work).
Education in prisons would also be a big thing, getting those who have already missed the boat back on track, reducing reoffending rates, making sure ex-criminals who leave prison can get work with the skills that they have learned in prison, even if it is for a lower wage initially.

The you have the police who would target, in many ways, the poorer areas too. The first is in making sure the police and the communities are working together, rather than feeling they are separate from one another. Then making sure kids are aware of the consequences of prison.

I'd even be open to some kind of military intervention in education. Kids who are in gangs, who are having major problems, in single parent families where the parent is struggling etc, can have the kid sent off to some kind of boot camp which leads to a potential career in the military if they manage to come out of it doing well.

Even youth sections of the military in inner cities and poorer areas taking part in the post school educating.


The goal would be to get adults who can work, adults who can get jobs, adults who have the skills needed, in order for them to have purpose in life. Give kids from inner city areas the same chances as kids from rich families.

People pay their tax money for a mass education system, not for "their kid to get a good education", and a mass education system should benefit all, not just the few. So things like school vouchers would simply be made illegal.

I agree that a better educational system would help. To say that it alone would solve the problem is a huge stretch. The problem with politicians is they don't know how to fix anything other than throwing money at it. Our investment in education is actually huge compared to the Western world, we're getting a terrible return for our money. Before throwing even more money at it, we need to focus on improving the system we have.

Any ideas on that?

 

[2aguy]

Asking you to present actual ideas is trolling? That's ridiculous.

I started this thread with an actual question. How do you keep the guns out of the hands of criminals? High schoolers can get all the pot they want and it is actually illegal. There are guns everywhere both inside and outside the country. They are not high tech. Our borders are open. Criminals don't obey laws. You posted in the thread, which is cool, but you just keep saying goals that we all agree on. The question is how we actually accomplish those though. All you said is that politicians don't care, but it's their job to solve the problem. I agree on the first part of that, the second will never happen.

So let me phrase it this way. If you were a politician, how would you propose to the rest of the politicians to address the problem? ... How ... would you engage criminals and their families in the economy so they commit fewer crimes to start with? ... How ... would you keep guns away from criminals? Obviously laws don't work, registration doesn't work, so how would you actually do it?

I would love to just discuss this with you, but I need more than 50K feet of objective, what is wrong with asking you for actual plans and proposals exactly?

What is trolling is telling me I have zero ideas. I don't expect you to have read every post on this forum that I have written. However I would expect you to accept that there is a lot of what I have written here, or said in my life, or whatever, that you don't know about.
Making a silly statement telling me I have zero was not designed to actually get me to say what I believe, but more for that ego massage you wanted to give yourself.

I do keep saying the politicians are not doing anything, because no matter what ideas you do have, you can't get them through anyway.
But, again, you're telling me I have ideas, then you're saying I'm criticising the politicians then saying I don't have ideas. I don't get what the feck you're talking about.

But I'll answer your question and ignore the guff.

First, get education to be about educating kids, and by kids I mean ALL KIDS, in to being good adults of the country with skills they can use to get themselves jobs.
This would involve classes which would deal with things like how to choose a partner who is good for you, how to look after a child effectively, how to understand what you're taking if you take drugs, both legal and illegal, how to deal with other people, how to understand other people.
Also skills would be at the forefront of education. Stuff English Literature and History and all these traditional subjects. All subjects like this would be the platform with which to pass on skills that are essential in modern life.
Schools would also be split up, somehow, into technical, academic and other which focus kids, especially teenagers, towards a career. So, some kids might go and "major" (so to speak) in construction work. They'd learn how to lay bricks, or do more complex things. Learning other important skills like literacy, math, science would be based around the subject they are doing, rather than just general generic stuff.

Also, education would target poorer communities which have major problems in society. After school programs would be made effective, keeping kids focused on education and their career ahead, possibly sending them out as 14, 15, 16 year olds etc to get on the job experience, to see what it's like to be a worker.
Also schools in poorer areas would be targeted to get standards up. Teachers would have to meet certain standards of teaching in order to be able to do their job. (which in turn would mean a change in the way teachers's contracts and unions work).
Education in prisons would also be a big thing, getting those who have already missed the boat back on track, reducing reoffending rates, making sure ex-criminals who leave prison can get work with the skills that they have learned in prison, even if it is for a lower wage initially.

The you have the police who would target, in many ways, the poorer areas too. The first is in making sure the police and the communities are working together, rather than feeling they are separate from one another. Then making sure kids are aware of the consequences of prison.

I'd even be open to some kind of military intervention in education. Kids who are in gangs, who are having major problems, in single parent families where the parent is struggling etc, can have the kid sent off to some kind of boot camp which leads to a potential career in the military if they manage to come out of it doing well.

Even youth sections of the military in inner cities and poorer areas taking part in the post school educating.


The goal would be to get adults who can work, adults who can get jobs, adults who have the skills needed, in order for them to have purpose in life. Give kids from inner city areas the same chances as kids from rich families.

People pay their tax money for a mass education system, not for "their kid to get a good education", and a mass education system should benefit all, not just the few. So things like school vouchers would simply be made illegal.

One's zip code is an excellent indicator of one's chances to become a contributing member of society.

Take a kid out of a poor neighborhood and put him in a middle class neighborhood.....and the chances that this kid becomes a burden on society go down exponentially.

Since we can't take all poor kids and move them in with rich kids.....we've got to find another way. How about making upward mobility MUCH more easily achieved?

If there weren't so many insecure people who were born and raised in some of the better zip codes......fooling themselves into believing that they got whet they are through hard work and great choices....and refusing to acknowledge that they were simply fortunate.....we might have already done what is needed.

Studies Suggest Economic Inequity Is Built Into and Worsened by School Systems

I agree. Sadly it's your left who block parents of kids in bad neighborhoods from choosing to put their kids in better schools through vouchers and force them to stay in their crappy neighborhood schools

it is also the policies of democrats that increase crime and drive out job makers, making good jobs for the poor harder to get.

 

[kaz]

Asking you to present actual ideas is trolling? That's ridiculous.

I started this thread with an actual question. How do you keep the guns out of the hands of criminals? High schoolers can get all the pot they want and it is actually illegal. There are guns everywhere both inside and outside the country. They are not high tech. Our borders are open. Criminals don't obey laws. You posted in the thread, which is cool, but you just keep saying goals that we all agree on. The question is how we actually accomplish those though. All you said is that politicians don't care, but it's their job to solve the problem. I agree on the first part of that, the second will never happen.

So let me phrase it this way. If you were a politician, how would you propose to the rest of the politicians to address the problem? ... How ... would you engage criminals and their families in the economy so they commit fewer crimes to start with? ... How ... would you keep guns away from criminals? Obviously laws don't work, registration doesn't work, so how would you actually do it?

I would love to just discuss this with you, but I need more than 50K feet of objective, what is wrong with asking you for actual plans and proposals exactly?

What is trolling is telling me I have zero ideas. I don't expect you to have read every post on this forum that I have written. However I would expect you to accept that there is a lot of what I have written here, or said in my life, or whatever, that you don't know about.
Making a silly statement telling me I have zero was not designed to actually get me to say what I believe, but more for that ego massage you wanted to give yourself.

I do keep saying the politicians are not doing anything, because no matter what ideas you do have, you can't get them through anyway.
But, again, you're telling me I have ideas, then you're saying I'm criticising the politicians then saying I don't have ideas. I don't get what the feck you're talking about.

But I'll answer your question and ignore the guff.

First, get education to be about educating kids, and by kids I mean ALL KIDS, in to being good adults of the country with skills they can use to get themselves jobs.
This would involve classes which would deal with things like how to choose a partner who is good for you, how to look after a child effectively, how to understand what you're taking if you take drugs, both legal and illegal, how to deal with other people, how to understand other people.
Also skills would be at the forefront of education. Stuff English Literature and History and all these traditional subjects. All subjects like this would be the platform with which to pass on skills that are essential in modern life.
Schools would also be split up, somehow, into technical, academic and other which focus kids, especially teenagers, towards a career. So, some kids might go and "major" (so to speak) in construction work. They'd learn how to lay bricks, or do more complex things. Learning other important skills like literacy, math, science would be based around the subject they are doing, rather than just general generic stuff.

Also, education would target poorer communities which have major problems in society. After school programs would be made effective, keeping kids focused on education and their career ahead, possibly sending them out as 14, 15, 16 year olds etc to get on the job experience, to see what it's like to be a worker.
Also schools in poorer areas would be targeted to get standards up. Teachers would have to meet certain standards of teaching in order to be able to do their job. (which in turn would mean a change in the way teachers's contracts and unions work).
Education in prisons would also be a big thing, getting those who have already missed the boat back on track, reducing reoffending rates, making sure ex-criminals who leave prison can get work with the skills that they have learned in prison, even if it is for a lower wage initially.

The you have the police who would target, in many ways, the poorer areas too. The first is in making sure the police and the communities are working together, rather than feeling they are separate from one another. Then making sure kids are aware of the consequences of prison.

I'd even be open to some kind of military intervention in education. Kids who are in gangs, who are having major problems, in single parent families where the parent is struggling etc, can have the kid sent off to some kind of boot camp which leads to a potential career in the military if they manage to come out of it doing well.

Even youth sections of the military in inner cities and poorer areas taking part in the post school educating.


The goal would be to get adults who can work, adults who can get jobs, adults who have the skills needed, in order for them to have purpose in life. Give kids from inner city areas the same chances as kids from rich families.

People pay their tax money for a mass education system, not for "their kid to get a good education", and a mass education system should benefit all, not just the few. So things like school vouchers would simply be made illegal.

One's zip code is an excellent indicator of one's chances to become a contributing member of society.

Take a kid out of a poor neighborhood and put him in a middle class neighborhood.....and the chances that this kid becomes a burden on society go down exponentially.

Since we can't take all poor kids and move them in with rich kids.....we've got to find another way. How about making upward mobility MUCH more easily achieved?

If there weren't so many insecure people who were born and raised in some of the better zip codes......fooling themselves into believing that they got whet they are through hard work and great choices....and refusing to acknowledge that they were simply fortunate.....we might have already done what is needed.

Studies Suggest Economic Inequity Is Built Into and Worsened by School Systems

I agree. Sadly it's your left who block parents of kids in bad neighborhoods from choosing to put their kids in better schools through vouchers and force them to stay in their crappy neighborhood schools

it is also the policies of democrats that increase crime and drive out job makers, making good jobs for the poor harder to get.

Agreed. And the minimum wage is flat out evil to the poor. Unemployment for inner city teens is 50%, and who needs jobs to improve their work ethnic and lot in lives more? The idea that businesses pay people what they are not worth is preposterous, it causes exactly that, high unemployment for those who need jobs the most. And inner city businesses can't afford it at all, and if they try to pay it they have to raise prices on their customers who can afford it the least. The stats and data are all there in the open and the left doesn't care. Once again liberal elitists screw other people so they can feel smug and superior

 

[LoneLaugher]

Asking you to present actual ideas is trolling? That's ridiculous.

I started this thread with an actual question. How do you keep the guns out of the hands of criminals? High schoolers can get all the pot they want and it is actually illegal. There are guns everywhere both inside and outside the country. They are not high tech. Our borders are open. Criminals don't obey laws. You posted in the thread, which is cool, but you just keep saying goals that we all agree on. The question is how we actually accomplish those though. All you said is that politicians don't care, but it's their job to solve the problem. I agree on the first part of that, the second will never happen.

So let me phrase it this way. If you were a politician, how would you propose to the rest of the politicians to address the problem? ... How ... would you engage criminals and their families in the economy so they commit fewer crimes to start with? ... How ... would you keep guns away from criminals? Obviously laws don't work, registration doesn't work, so how would you actually do it?

I would love to just discuss this with you, but I need more than 50K feet of objective, what is wrong with asking you for actual plans and proposals exactly?

What is trolling is telling me I have zero ideas. I don't expect you to have read every post on this forum that I have written. However I would expect you to accept that there is a lot of what I have written here, or said in my life, or whatever, that you don't know about.
Making a silly statement telling me I have zero was not designed to actually get me to say what I believe, but more for that ego massage you wanted to give yourself.

I do keep saying the politicians are not doing anything, because no matter what ideas you do have, you can't get them through anyway.
But, again, you're telling me I have ideas, then you're saying I'm criticising the politicians then saying I don't have ideas. I don't get what the feck you're talking about.

But I'll answer your question and ignore the guff.

First, get education to be about educating kids, and by kids I mean ALL KIDS, in to being good adults of the country with skills they can use to get themselves jobs.
This would involve classes which would deal with things like how to choose a partner who is good for you, how to look after a child effectively, how to understand what you're taking if you take drugs, both legal and illegal, how to deal with other people, how to understand other people.
Also skills would be at the forefront of education. Stuff English Literature and History and all these traditional subjects. All subjects like this would be the platform with which to pass on skills that are essential in modern life.
Schools would also be split up, somehow, into technical, academic and other which focus kids, especially teenagers, towards a career. So, some kids might go and "major" (so to speak) in construction work. They'd learn how to lay bricks, or do more complex things. Learning other important skills like literacy, math, science would be based around the subject they are doing, rather than just general generic stuff.

Also, education would target poorer communities which have major problems in society. After school programs would be made effective, keeping kids focused on education and their career ahead, possibly sending them out as 14, 15, 16 year olds etc to get on the job experience, to see what it's like to be a worker.
Also schools in poorer areas would be targeted to get standards up. Teachers would have to meet certain standards of teaching in order to be able to do their job. (which in turn would mean a change in the way teachers's contracts and unions work).
Education in prisons would also be a big thing, getting those who have already missed the boat back on track, reducing reoffending rates, making sure ex-criminals who leave prison can get work with the skills that they have learned in prison, even if it is for a lower wage initially.

The you have the police who would target, in many ways, the poorer areas too. The first is in making sure the police and the communities are working together, rather than feeling they are separate from one another. Then making sure kids are aware of the consequences of prison.

I'd even be open to some kind of military intervention in education. Kids who are in gangs, who are having major problems, in single parent families where the parent is struggling etc, can have the kid sent off to some kind of boot camp which leads to a potential career in the military if they manage to come out of it doing well.

Even youth sections of the military in inner cities and poorer areas taking part in the post school educating.


The goal would be to get adults who can work, adults who can get jobs, adults who have the skills needed, in order for them to have purpose in life. Give kids from inner city areas the same chances as kids from rich families.

People pay their tax money for a mass education system, not for "their kid to get a good education", and a mass education system should benefit all, not just the few. So things like school vouchers would simply be made illegal.

One's zip code is an excellent indicator of one's chances to become a contributing member of society.

Take a kid out of a poor neighborhood and put him in a middle class neighborhood.....and the chances that this kid becomes a burden on society go down exponentially.

Since we can't take all poor kids and move them in with rich kids.....we've got to find another way. How about making upward mobility MUCH more easily achieved?

If there weren't so many insecure people who were born and raised in some of the better zip codes......fooling themselves into believing that they got whet they are through hard work and great choices....and refusing to acknowledge that they were simply fortunate.....we might have already done what is needed.

Studies Suggest Economic Inequity Is Built Into and Worsened by School Systems

I agree. Sadly it's your left who block parents of kids in bad neighborhoods from choosing to put their kids in better schools through vouchers and force them to stay in their crappy neighborhood schools

Nope. Try again.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Asking you to present actual ideas is trolling? That's ridiculous.

I started this thread with an actual question. How do you keep the guns out of the hands of criminals? High schoolers can get all the pot they want and it is actually illegal. There are guns everywhere both inside and outside the country. They are not high tech. Our borders are open. Criminals don't obey laws. You posted in the thread, which is cool, but you just keep saying goals that we all agree on. The question is how we actually accomplish those though. All you said is that politicians don't care, but it's their job to solve the problem. I agree on the first part of that, the second will never happen.

So let me phrase it this way. If you were a politician, how would you propose to the rest of the politicians to address the problem? ... How ... would you engage criminals and their families in the economy so they commit fewer crimes to start with? ... How ... would you keep guns away from criminals? Obviously laws don't work, registration doesn't work, so how would you actually do it?

I would love to just discuss this with you, but I need more than 50K feet of objective, what is wrong with asking you for actual plans and proposals exactly?

What is trolling is telling me I have zero ideas. I don't expect you to have read every post on this forum that I have written. However I would expect you to accept that there is a lot of what I have written here, or said in my life, or whatever, that you don't know about.
Making a silly statement telling me I have zero was not designed to actually get me to say what I believe, but more for that ego massage you wanted to give yourself.

I do keep saying the politicians are not doing anything, because no matter what ideas you do have, you can't get them through anyway.
But, again, you're telling me I have ideas, then you're saying I'm criticising the politicians then saying I don't have ideas. I don't get what the feck you're talking about.

But I'll answer your question and ignore the guff.

First, get education to be about educating kids, and by kids I mean ALL KIDS, in to being good adults of the country with skills they can use to get themselves jobs.
This would involve classes which would deal with things like how to choose a partner who is good for you, how to look after a child effectively, how to understand what you're taking if you take drugs, both legal and illegal, how to deal with other people, how to understand other people.
Also skills would be at the forefront of education. Stuff English Literature and History and all these traditional subjects. All subjects like this would be the platform with which to pass on skills that are essential in modern life.
Schools would also be split up, somehow, into technical, academic and other which focus kids, especially teenagers, towards a career. So, some kids might go and "major" (so to speak) in construction work. They'd learn how to lay bricks, or do more complex things. Learning other important skills like literacy, math, science would be based around the subject they are doing, rather than just general generic stuff.

Also, education would target poorer communities which have major problems in society. After school programs would be made effective, keeping kids focused on education and their career ahead, possibly sending them out as 14, 15, 16 year olds etc to get on the job experience, to see what it's like to be a worker.
Also schools in poorer areas would be targeted to get standards up. Teachers would have to meet certain standards of teaching in order to be able to do their job. (which in turn would mean a change in the way teachers's contracts and unions work).
Education in prisons would also be a big thing, getting those who have already missed the boat back on track, reducing reoffending rates, making sure ex-criminals who leave prison can get work with the skills that they have learned in prison, even if it is for a lower wage initially.

The you have the police who would target, in many ways, the poorer areas too. The first is in making sure the police and the communities are working together, rather than feeling they are separate from one another. Then making sure kids are aware of the consequences of prison.

I'd even be open to some kind of military intervention in education. Kids who are in gangs, who are having major problems, in single parent families where the parent is struggling etc, can have the kid sent off to some kind of boot camp which leads to a potential career in the military if they manage to come out of it doing well.

Even youth sections of the military in inner cities and poorer areas taking part in the post school educating.


The goal would be to get adults who can work, adults who can get jobs, adults who have the skills needed, in order for them to have purpose in life. Give kids from inner city areas the same chances as kids from rich families.

People pay their tax money for a mass education system, not for "their kid to get a good education", and a mass education system should benefit all, not just the few. So things like school vouchers would simply be made illegal.

I agree that a better educational system would help. To say that it alone would solve the problem is a huge stretch. The problem with politicians is they don't know how to fix anything other than throwing money at it. Our investment in education is actually huge compared to the Western world, we're getting a terrible return for our money. Before throwing even more money at it, we need to focus on improving the system we have.

Any ideas on that?

There are ideas in the link I provided.

Read them.

 

[kaz]

Asking you to present actual ideas is trolling? That's ridiculous.

I started this thread with an actual question. How do you keep the guns out of the hands of criminals? High schoolers can get all the pot they want and it is actually illegal. There are guns everywhere both inside and outside the country. They are not high tech. Our borders are open. Criminals don't obey laws. You posted in the thread, which is cool, but you just keep saying goals that we all agree on. The question is how we actually accomplish those though. All you said is that politicians don't care, but it's their job to solve the problem. I agree on the first part of that, the second will never happen.

So let me phrase it this way. If you were a politician, how would you propose to the rest of the politicians to address the problem? ... How ... would you engage criminals and their families in the economy so they commit fewer crimes to start with? ... How ... would you keep guns away from criminals? Obviously laws don't work, registration doesn't work, so how would you actually do it?

I would love to just discuss this with you, but I need more than 50K feet of objective, what is wrong with asking you for actual plans and proposals exactly?

What is trolling is telling me I have zero ideas. I don't expect you to have read every post on this forum that I have written. However I would expect you to accept that there is a lot of what I have written here, or said in my life, or whatever, that you don't know about.
Making a silly statement telling me I have zero was not designed to actually get me to say what I believe, but more for that ego massage you wanted to give yourself.

I do keep saying the politicians are not doing anything, because no matter what ideas you do have, you can't get them through anyway.
But, again, you're telling me I have ideas, then you're saying I'm criticising the politicians then saying I don't have ideas. I don't get what the feck you're talking about.

But I'll answer your question and ignore the guff.

First, get education to be about educating kids, and by kids I mean ALL KIDS, in to being good adults of the country with skills they can use to get themselves jobs.
This would involve classes which would deal with things like how to choose a partner who is good for you, how to look after a child effectively, how to understand what you're taking if you take drugs, both legal and illegal, how to deal with other people, how to understand other people.
Also skills would be at the forefront of education. Stuff English Literature and History and all these traditional subjects. All subjects like this would be the platform with which to pass on skills that are essential in modern life.
Schools would also be split up, somehow, into technical, academic and other which focus kids, especially teenagers, towards a career. So, some kids might go and "major" (so to speak) in construction work. They'd learn how to lay bricks, or do more complex things. Learning other important skills like literacy, math, science would be based around the subject they are doing, rather than just general generic stuff.

Also, education would target poorer communities which have major problems in society. After school programs would be made effective, keeping kids focused on education and their career ahead, possibly sending them out as 14, 15, 16 year olds etc to get on the job experience, to see what it's like to be a worker.
Also schools in poorer areas would be targeted to get standards up. Teachers would have to meet certain standards of teaching in order to be able to do their job. (which in turn would mean a change in the way teachers's contracts and unions work).
Education in prisons would also be a big thing, getting those who have already missed the boat back on track, reducing reoffending rates, making sure ex-criminals who leave prison can get work with the skills that they have learned in prison, even if it is for a lower wage initially.

The you have the police who would target, in many ways, the poorer areas too. The first is in making sure the police and the communities are working together, rather than feeling they are separate from one another. Then making sure kids are aware of the consequences of prison.

I'd even be open to some kind of military intervention in education. Kids who are in gangs, who are having major problems, in single parent families where the parent is struggling etc, can have the kid sent off to some kind of boot camp which leads to a potential career in the military if they manage to come out of it doing well.

Even youth sections of the military in inner cities and poorer areas taking part in the post school educating.


The goal would be to get adults who can work, adults who can get jobs, adults who have the skills needed, in order for them to have purpose in life. Give kids from inner city areas the same chances as kids from rich families.

People pay their tax money for a mass education system, not for "their kid to get a good education", and a mass education system should benefit all, not just the few. So things like school vouchers would simply be made illegal.

One's zip code is an excellent indicator of one's chances to become a contributing member of society.

Take a kid out of a poor neighborhood and put him in a middle class neighborhood.....and the chances that this kid becomes a burden on society go down exponentially.

Since we can't take all poor kids and move them in with rich kids.....we've got to find another way. How about making upward mobility MUCH more easily achieved?

If there weren't so many insecure people who were born and raised in some of the better zip codes......fooling themselves into believing that they got whet they are through hard work and great choices....and refusing to acknowledge that they were simply fortunate.....we might have already done what is needed.

Studies Suggest Economic Inequity Is Built Into and Worsened by School Systems

I agree. Sadly it's your left who block parents of kids in bad neighborhoods from choosing to put their kids in better schools through vouchers and force them to stay in their crappy neighborhood schools

Nope. Try again.

Um...you think Democrats aren't against vouchers? Don't keep up much, do you?

 

[LoneLaugher]

Asking you to present actual ideas is trolling? That's ridiculous.

I started this thread with an actual question. How do you keep the guns out of the hands of criminals? High schoolers can get all the pot they want and it is actually illegal. There are guns everywhere both inside and outside the country. They are not high tech. Our borders are open. Criminals don't obey laws. You posted in the thread, which is cool, but you just keep saying goals that we all agree on. The question is how we actually accomplish those though. All you said is that politicians don't care, but it's their job to solve the problem. I agree on the first part of that, the second will never happen.

So let me phrase it this way. If you were a politician, how would you propose to the rest of the politicians to address the problem? ... How ... would you engage criminals and their families in the economy so they commit fewer crimes to start with? ... How ... would you keep guns away from criminals? Obviously laws don't work, registration doesn't work, so how would you actually do it?

I would love to just discuss this with you, but I need more than 50K feet of objective, what is wrong with asking you for actual plans and proposals exactly?

What is trolling is telling me I have zero ideas. I don't expect you to have read every post on this forum that I have written. However I would expect you to accept that there is a lot of what I have written here, or said in my life, or whatever, that you don't know about.
Making a silly statement telling me I have zero was not designed to actually get me to say what I believe, but more for that ego massage you wanted to give yourself.

I do keep saying the politicians are not doing anything, because no matter what ideas you do have, you can't get them through anyway.
But, again, you're telling me I have ideas, then you're saying I'm criticising the politicians then saying I don't have ideas. I don't get what the feck you're talking about.

But I'll answer your question and ignore the guff.

First, get education to be about educating kids, and by kids I mean ALL KIDS, in to being good adults of the country with skills they can use to get themselves jobs.
This would involve classes which would deal with things like how to choose a partner who is good for you, how to look after a child effectively, how to understand what you're taking if you take drugs, both legal and illegal, how to deal with other people, how to understand other people.
Also skills would be at the forefront of education. Stuff English Literature and History and all these traditional subjects. All subjects like this would be the platform with which to pass on skills that are essential in modern life.
Schools would also be split up, somehow, into technical, academic and other which focus kids, especially teenagers, towards a career. So, some kids might go and "major" (so to speak) in construction work. They'd learn how to lay bricks, or do more complex things. Learning other important skills like literacy, math, science would be based around the subject they are doing, rather than just general generic stuff.

Also, education would target poorer communities which have major problems in society. After school programs would be made effective, keeping kids focused on education and their career ahead, possibly sending them out as 14, 15, 16 year olds etc to get on the job experience, to see what it's like to be a worker.
Also schools in poorer areas would be targeted to get standards up. Teachers would have to meet certain standards of teaching in order to be able to do their job. (which in turn would mean a change in the way teachers's contracts and unions work).
Education in prisons would also be a big thing, getting those who have already missed the boat back on track, reducing reoffending rates, making sure ex-criminals who leave prison can get work with the skills that they have learned in prison, even if it is for a lower wage initially.

The you have the police who would target, in many ways, the poorer areas too. The first is in making sure the police and the communities are working together, rather than feeling they are separate from one another. Then making sure kids are aware of the consequences of prison.

I'd even be open to some kind of military intervention in education. Kids who are in gangs, who are having major problems, in single parent families where the parent is struggling etc, can have the kid sent off to some kind of boot camp which leads to a potential career in the military if they manage to come out of it doing well.

Even youth sections of the military in inner cities and poorer areas taking part in the post school educating.


The goal would be to get adults who can work, adults who can get jobs, adults who have the skills needed, in order for them to have purpose in life. Give kids from inner city areas the same chances as kids from rich families.

People pay their tax money for a mass education system, not for "their kid to get a good education", and a mass education system should benefit all, not just the few. So things like school vouchers would simply be made illegal.

One's zip code is an excellent indicator of one's chances to become a contributing member of society.

Take a kid out of a poor neighborhood and put him in a middle class neighborhood.....and the chances that this kid becomes a burden on society go down exponentially.

Since we can't take all poor kids and move them in with rich kids.....we've got to find another way. How about making upward mobility MUCH more easily achieved?

If there weren't so many insecure people who were born and raised in some of the better zip codes......fooling themselves into believing that they got whet they are through hard work and great choices....and refusing to acknowledge that they were simply fortunate.....we might have already done what is needed.

Studies Suggest Economic Inequity Is Built Into and Worsened by School Systems

I agree. Sadly it's your left who block parents of kids in bad neighborhoods from choosing to put their kids in better schools through vouchers and force them to stay in their crappy neighborhood schools

Nope. Try again.

Um...you think Democrats aren't against vouchers? Don't keep up much, do you?

Vouchers are hardly a solution. That's simpleton stuff. That's where you fail.

 

[kaz]

Asking you to present actual ideas is trolling? That's ridiculous.

I started this thread with an actual question. How do you keep the guns out of the hands of criminals? High schoolers can get all the pot they want and it is actually illegal. There are guns everywhere both inside and outside the country. They are not high tech. Our borders are open. Criminals don't obey laws. You posted in the thread, which is cool, but you just keep saying goals that we all agree on. The question is how we actually accomplish those though. All you said is that politicians don't care, but it's their job to solve the problem. I agree on the first part of that, the second will never happen.

So let me phrase it this way. If you were a politician, how would you propose to the rest of the politicians to address the problem? ... How ... would you engage criminals and their families in the economy so they commit fewer crimes to start with? ... How ... would you keep guns away from criminals? Obviously laws don't work, registration doesn't work, so how would you actually do it?

I would love to just discuss this with you, but I need more than 50K feet of objective, what is wrong with asking you for actual plans and proposals exactly?

What is trolling is telling me I have zero ideas. I don't expect you to have read every post on this forum that I have written. However I would expect you to accept that there is a lot of what I have written here, or said in my life, or whatever, that you don't know about.
Making a silly statement telling me I have zero was not designed to actually get me to say what I believe, but more for that ego massage you wanted to give yourself.

I do keep saying the politicians are not doing anything, because no matter what ideas you do have, you can't get them through anyway.
But, again, you're telling me I have ideas, then you're saying I'm criticising the politicians then saying I don't have ideas. I don't get what the feck you're talking about.

But I'll answer your question and ignore the guff.

First, get education to be about educating kids, and by kids I mean ALL KIDS, in to being good adults of the country with skills they can use to get themselves jobs.
This would involve classes which would deal with things like how to choose a partner who is good for you, how to look after a child effectively, how to understand what you're taking if you take drugs, both legal and illegal, how to deal with other people, how to understand other people.
Also skills would be at the forefront of education. Stuff English Literature and History and all these traditional subjects. All subjects like this would be the platform with which to pass on skills that are essential in modern life.
Schools would also be split up, somehow, into technical, academic and other which focus kids, especially teenagers, towards a career. So, some kids might go and "major" (so to speak) in construction work. They'd learn how to lay bricks, or do more complex things. Learning other important skills like literacy, math, science would be based around the subject they are doing, rather than just general generic stuff.

Also, education would target poorer communities which have major problems in society. After school programs would be made effective, keeping kids focused on education and their career ahead, possibly sending them out as 14, 15, 16 year olds etc to get on the job experience, to see what it's like to be a worker.
Also schools in poorer areas would be targeted to get standards up. Teachers would have to meet certain standards of teaching in order to be able to do their job. (which in turn would mean a change in the way teachers's contracts and unions work).
Education in prisons would also be a big thing, getting those who have already missed the boat back on track, reducing reoffending rates, making sure ex-criminals who leave prison can get work with the skills that they have learned in prison, even if it is for a lower wage initially.

The you have the police who would target, in many ways, the poorer areas too. The first is in making sure the police and the communities are working together, rather than feeling they are separate from one another. Then making sure kids are aware of the consequences of prison.

I'd even be open to some kind of military intervention in education. Kids who are in gangs, who are having major problems, in single parent families where the parent is struggling etc, can have the kid sent off to some kind of boot camp which leads to a potential career in the military if they manage to come out of it doing well.

Even youth sections of the military in inner cities and poorer areas taking part in the post school educating.


The goal would be to get adults who can work, adults who can get jobs, adults who have the skills needed, in order for them to have purpose in life. Give kids from inner city areas the same chances as kids from rich families.

People pay their tax money for a mass education system, not for "their kid to get a good education", and a mass education system should benefit all, not just the few. So things like school vouchers would simply be made illegal.

I agree that a better educational system would help. To say that it alone would solve the problem is a huge stretch. The problem with politicians is they don't know how to fix anything other than throwing money at it. Our investment in education is actually huge compared to the Western world, we're getting a terrible return for our money. Before throwing even more money at it, we need to focus on improving the system we have.

Any ideas on that?

There are ideas in the link I provided.

Read them.

First of all, it's hilarious reading a story about education written by someone who doesn't know the difference between ensures and insures, and they did it repeatedly.

I read through that long winded repetitious article at a high level and I didn't see that. Maybe instead of asking me to read a book you could pull out what you think are the pertinent sections

 

[kaz]

What is trolling is telling me I have zero ideas. I don't expect you to have read every post on this forum that I have written. However I would expect you to accept that there is a lot of what I have written here, or said in my life, or whatever, that you don't know about.
Making a silly statement telling me I have zero was not designed to actually get me to say what I believe, but more for that ego massage you wanted to give yourself.

I do keep saying the politicians are not doing anything, because no matter what ideas you do have, you can't get them through anyway.
But, again, you're telling me I have ideas, then you're saying I'm criticising the politicians then saying I don't have ideas. I don't get what the feck you're talking about.

But I'll answer your question and ignore the guff.

First, get education to be about educating kids, and by kids I mean ALL KIDS, in to being good adults of the country with skills they can use to get themselves jobs.
This would involve classes which would deal with things like how to choose a partner who is good for you, how to look after a child effectively, how to understand what you're taking if you take drugs, both legal and illegal, how to deal with other people, how to understand other people.
Also skills would be at the forefront of education. Stuff English Literature and History and all these traditional subjects. All subjects like this would be the platform with which to pass on skills that are essential in modern life.
Schools would also be split up, somehow, into technical, academic and other which focus kids, especially teenagers, towards a career. So, some kids might go and "major" (so to speak) in construction work. They'd learn how to lay bricks, or do more complex things. Learning other important skills like literacy, math, science would be based around the subject they are doing, rather than just general generic stuff.

Also, education would target poorer communities which have major problems in society. After school programs would be made effective, keeping kids focused on education and their career ahead, possibly sending them out as 14, 15, 16 year olds etc to get on the job experience, to see what it's like to be a worker.
Also schools in poorer areas would be targeted to get standards up. Teachers would have to meet certain standards of teaching in order to be able to do their job. (which in turn would mean a change in the way teachers's contracts and unions work).
Education in prisons would also be a big thing, getting those who have already missed the boat back on track, reducing reoffending rates, making sure ex-criminals who leave prison can get work with the skills that they have learned in prison, even if it is for a lower wage initially.

The you have the police who would target, in many ways, the poorer areas too. The first is in making sure the police and the communities are working together, rather than feeling they are separate from one another. Then making sure kids are aware of the consequences of prison.

I'd even be open to some kind of military intervention in education. Kids who are in gangs, who are having major problems, in single parent families where the parent is struggling etc, can have the kid sent off to some kind of boot camp which leads to a potential career in the military if they manage to come out of it doing well.

Even youth sections of the military in inner cities and poorer areas taking part in the post school educating.


The goal would be to get adults who can work, adults who can get jobs, adults who have the skills needed, in order for them to have purpose in life. Give kids from inner city areas the same chances as kids from rich families.

People pay their tax money for a mass education system, not for "their kid to get a good education", and a mass education system should benefit all, not just the few. So things like school vouchers would simply be made illegal.

One's zip code is an excellent indicator of one's chances to become a contributing member of society.

Take a kid out of a poor neighborhood and put him in a middle class neighborhood.....and the chances that this kid becomes a burden on society go down exponentially.

Since we can't take all poor kids and move them in with rich kids.....we've got to find another way. How about making upward mobility MUCH more easily achieved?

If there weren't so many insecure people who were born and raised in some of the better zip codes......fooling themselves into believing that they got whet they are through hard work and great choices....and refusing to acknowledge that they were simply fortunate.....we might have already done what is needed.

Studies Suggest Economic Inequity Is Built Into and Worsened by School Systems

I agree. Sadly it's your left who block parents of kids in bad neighborhoods from choosing to put their kids in better schools through vouchers and force them to stay in their crappy neighborhood schools

Nope. Try again.

Um...you think Democrats aren't against vouchers? Don't keep up much, do you?

Vouchers are hardly a solution. That's simpleton stuff. That's where you fail.

So you support the point that getting kids into better schools is the solution yet you oppose helping or even allowing parents in poor neighborhoods to put their kids in better schools.

You're right, you are a clown. Promise me you'll never change the avatar. It's classic how often people self identify