Keeping guns from criminals - liberals, what is your plan?

[kaz]

The price of the illegal guns will go up too; silly.

Why would the price of illegal gun ownership go up when they aren't paying the taxes and insurance?

Because the price of guns to the "non criminal" market is going to go up due to reduced production. Higher prices means fewer buyers when there is elastic demand. Guns are pretty much a luxury item and if the price goes up from $700 to $1,000, fewer buyers will mean fewer being made. Thus you have a shortage.

And then when drug dealers and gun runners recognize the price is going up, they'll start flooding the streets with foreign made guns and the price will go down again. Which was the basic question in my op, when any high school kid can buy as much weed as they want, how are you going to keep guns out of criminals hands?

So then what do you do to get the prices to go up again, Kasparov?

 

[candycorn]

Right, because criminals too honest to buy an illegal gun and not pay the tax. They would never think of that, they just wouldn't buy the gun. I feel you...

The price of the illegal guns will go up too; silly.

Yeah cause no one ever buys illegal products made in south america, asia, europe...

Sure they do.

But it's not as if the illegal arms are immune from market forces.

 

[kaz]

The price of the illegal guns will go up too; silly.

Yeah cause no one ever buys illegal products made in south america, asia, europe...

Sure they do.

But it's not as if the illegal arms are immune from market forces.

That point works against you. Driving prices up just motivates the illegal gun trade. Because of ... wait for it ... market forces ...

 

[Spoonman]

The price of the illegal guns will go up too; silly.

Why would the price of illegal gun ownership go up when they aren't paying the taxes and insurance?

Because the price of guns to the "non criminal" market is going to go up due to reduced production. Higher prices means fewer buyers when there is elastic demand. Guns are pretty much a luxury item and if the price goes up from $700 to $1,000, fewer buyers will mean fewer being made. Thus you have a shortage.

guess again. bought my HK-91 for $389 prior to Clintons assault weapons ban. at the range about 9 months ago I was offered $4500 for it. If I was even considering selling it I could have worked that initial offer up. you can't out price guns. they thought they could out price ammo. it went up 5 times the going rate with Obama's push after sandy hook. what happened. every available piece of ammo sold out. manufacturers ramped up production, added shifts and still they can not meet the demand. when something becomes too expensive or too difficult to get by conventional means, what happens? the black market. they thought they could out price cigarettes. it reaches a threshold and now there is an market for the black market. people don't care, they say fuck the government and their taxes and they buy black market. more people are making their own ammo now too. it's easy.

 

[candycorn]

Exactly. You're on your own planet. Since you have no consistency in your view, you just make arbitrary rules that have nothing to do with anything, there's no point in addressing it. Now if you come up with an actual standard you can defend, let us know.

The original question was how to keep guns from criminals. Since we can't ban guns thanks to a 200+ y/o rule when the firing rate was what; one round every four minutes and it would take hours to kill 26 kids; the next best thing is to dry up the supply.

Making them cost-prohibitive would do that. You guys didn't like the tax or the insurance so now requiring gun manufacturers to front the money for their product's deadly effects is the next best thing.

that 200 + year old rule is the same document that applies to everyone of our freedoms. are you suggesting they are all invalid now too?

Absolutely not.

I will submit to you, however, that not every idea derived at by any group is a good idea; much less a document written 200+ years ago is built to serve for all eternity.

Who is your favorite musical group? I like the Guess Who myself. Do I like every one of their songs equally. No. I would submit that whomever your favorite band is that they have some music you'd rather not listen to.

As human beings it would seem as though we would be smart enough to recognize what isn't working and fix it. We have what, 15,000 gun deaths a year? Is that acceptable? I would say no.

and that rule was put in place by james Madison to give the people the ability to protect themselves, not only from enemies but also from their own government.

that rule is never more needed then today.

Why do you think it's more needed today? So you agree we should drastically reduce spending on our military since that is why you say you need the guns; right?

 

[RKMBrown]

Yeah cause no one ever buys illegal products made in south america, asia, europe...

Sure they do.

But it's not as if the illegal arms are immune from market forces.

That point works against you. Driving prices up just motivates the illegal gun trade. Because of ... wait for it ... market forces ...

How expensive do you think pot is? How much is sold here each year? You are blind if you think making something illegal runs the price up and/or slows the flow down. All it does is screw over the people who manufacture here in the states and then screw over the people in the states that have to pay to keep freedom fighters in jail.

 

[candycorn]

Why would the price of illegal gun ownership go up when they aren't paying the taxes and insurance?

Because the price of guns to the "non criminal" market is going to go up due to reduced production. Higher prices means fewer buyers when there is elastic demand. Guns are pretty much a luxury item and if the price goes up from $700 to $1,000, fewer buyers will mean fewer being made. Thus you have a shortage.

guess again. bought my HK-91 for $389 prior to Clintons assault weapons ban. at the range about 9 months ago I was offered $4500 for it. If I was even considering selling it I could have worked that initial offer up. you can't out price guns. they thought they could out price ammo. it went up 5 times the going rate with Obama's push after sandy hook. what happened. every available piece of ammo sold out. manufacturers ramped up production, added shifts and still they can not meet the demand. when something becomes too expensive or too difficult to get by conventional means, what happens? the black market. they thought they could out price cigarettes. it reaches a threshold and now there is an market for the black market. people don't care, they say fuck the government and their taxes and they buy black market. more people are making their own ammo now too. it's easy.

Cigarette consumption is generally at it's lowest point in history due in no small part to the price having to be paid.

It could work very easily with guns.

As for this black market; yeah okay. I could probably get my next TV set from a guy selling them out of his van for cheaper than I'll pay at Wal*Mart. I'm likely to still go to Wal*Mart. Ninety percent of the people would do the same .

It's a comical argument.

 

[candycorn]

Yeah cause no one ever buys illegal products made in south america, asia, europe...

Sure they do.

But it's not as if the illegal arms are immune from market forces.

That point works against you. Driving prices up just motivates the illegal gun trade. Because of ... wait for it ... market forces ...

So I suppose you've bought all of your weapons illegally then? Hey, if it's so much cheaper than Dick's Sporting Goods and the sales tax in your state...

How many illegal weapons DO YOU own?

 

[candycorn]

Sure they do.

But it's not as if the illegal arms are immune from market forces.

That point works against you. Driving prices up just motivates the illegal gun trade. Because of ... wait for it ... market forces ...

So I suppose you've bought all of your weapons illegally then? Hey, if it's so much cheaper than Dick's Sporting Goods and the sales tax in your state...

How many illegal weapons DO YOU own?

I'm not asking you to give up your source but really; the black market sounds great. You can avoid sales taxes so it makes me wonder why Dick's is sold out of weapons....everyone should be at this black market...right?

If illegal arms are so prevealant; why are gun manufacturers running 3 shifts and "can't keep up"?

 

[RKMBrown]

That point works against you. Driving prices up just motivates the illegal gun trade. Because of ... wait for it ... market forces ...

So I suppose you've bought all of your weapons illegally then? Hey, if it's so much cheaper than Dick's Sporting Goods and the sales tax in your state...

How many illegal weapons DO YOU own?

I'm not asking you to give up your source but really; the black market sounds great. You can avoid sales taxes so it makes me wonder why Dick's is sold out of weapons....everyone should be at this black market...right?

If illegal arms are so prevealant; why are gun manufacturers running 3 shifts and "can't keep up"?

Retard. It's legal to manufacture and buy guns. The question was what if guns were made illegal to manufacture and sell in the states. Then most of us would gladly tell the feds to shove it just as we did during prohibition and just as we are doing now regarding weed.

 

[candycorn]

So I suppose you've bought all of your weapons illegally then? Hey, if it's so much cheaper than Dick's Sporting Goods and the sales tax in your state...

How many illegal weapons DO YOU own?

I'm not asking you to give up your source but really; the black market sounds great. You can avoid sales taxes so it makes me wonder why Dick's is sold out of weapons....everyone should be at this black market...right?

If illegal arms are so prevealant; why are gun manufacturers running 3 shifts and "can't keep up"?

Retard. It's legal to buy guns.

But you can go to this "black market" and buy them cheaper; right?

 

[RKMBrown]

I'm not asking you to give up your source but really; the black market sounds great. You can avoid sales taxes so it makes me wonder why Dick's is sold out of weapons....everyone should be at this black market...right?

If illegal arms are so prevealant; why are gun manufacturers running 3 shifts and "can't keep up"?

Retard. It's legal to buy guns.

But you can go to this "black market" and buy them cheaper; right?

Why go to the black market when it's legal to buy guns? Why would I do that? Today, only criminals need to buy illegal guns. The fact that they are criminals makes the illegal market more expensive due to the risk. There is no benefit to the bulk of the market to use the black market when there is a fair priced capitalist free market.

 

[RKMBrown]

If however, government starts taxing it like cigs.. there will be an illegal black market like the one for cigs.

 

[kaz]

I'm not asking you to give up your source but really; the black market sounds great. You can avoid sales taxes so it makes me wonder why Dick's is sold out of weapons....everyone should be at this black market...right?

If illegal arms are so prevealant; why are gun manufacturers running 3 shifts and "can't keep up"?

Retard. It's legal to buy guns.

But you can go to this "black market" and buy them cheaper; right?

The point was that if you drive up the price of guns, THEN they will be cheaper on the black market. Criminals won't have a problem getting them. The whole point of this is that your policies make it harder and harder for people to defend themselves without keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. Seriously, after all this discussion, you don't get that?

 

[RKMBrown]

Retard. It's legal to buy guns.

But you can go to this "black market" and buy them cheaper; right?

The point was that if you drive up the price of guns, THEN they will be cheaper on the black market. Criminals won't have a problem getting them. The whole point of this is that your policies make it harder and harder for people to defend themselves without keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. Seriously, after all this discussion, you don't get that?

Kaz, that is what they want. The reason the democrats want us to be "defenseless" is so we'll have to pay them (government) to defend us. It's no different than the mafia demanding "protection" money.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Sure they do.

But it's not as if the illegal arms are immune from market forces.

That point works against you. Driving prices up just motivates the illegal gun trade. Because of ... wait for it ... market forces ...

How expensive do you think pot is? How much is sold here each year? You are blind if you think making something illegal runs the price up and/or slows the flow down. All it does is screw over the people who manufacture here in the states and then screw over the people in the states that have to pay to keep freedom fighters in jail.

Yea, if they legalize all illegal drugs, the price would probably go up, because there would be thousands or millions now buying them and a lot of their disposable income would frivolously go to pot or cocaine. The demand would soar and prices would go up dramatically.

 

[RKMBrown]

That point works against you. Driving prices up just motivates the illegal gun trade. Because of ... wait for it ... market forces ...

How expensive do you think pot is? How much is sold here each year? You are blind if you think making something illegal runs the price up and/or slows the flow down. All it does is screw over the people who manufacture here in the states and then screw over the people in the states that have to pay to keep freedom fighters in jail.

Yea, if they legalize all illegal drugs, the price would probably go up, because there would be thousands or millions now buying them and a lot of their disposable income would go to pot or cocaine. The demand would soar and prices would go up dramatically.

Not if we started producing here. America used to be a top producer of hemp. Additionally, the price of drugs would fall due to the alternate sources for the expensive pain killing drugs made from poppies etc. Demand would not change much if any.

However, south america's economy would be screwed.

 

[candycorn]

Retard. It's legal to buy guns.

But you can go to this "black market" and buy them cheaper; right?

Why go to the black market when it's legal to buy guns? Why would I do that?

You're not paying sales tax.

Today, only criminals need to buy illegal guns. The fact that they are criminals makes the illegal market more expensive due to the risk.

Oh...so the black market is more expensive.

There is no benefit to the bulk of the market to use the black market when there is a fair priced capitalist free market.

So raising the price would automatically force businessmen, housewives and college students to go to this shady black market instead of just saving up for a couple of more weeks?

Is THAT your argument?

 

[RKMBrown]

Drugs are already legal in the states, only it's a protected monopoly on the producers and the drugs have to be purchased through scripts. Eliminate the monopoly and the prescription requirement and the price falls.

 

[Antares]

Because the price of guns to the "non criminal" market is going to go up due to reduced production. Higher prices means fewer buyers when there is elastic demand. Guns are pretty much a luxury item and if the price goes up from $700 to $1,000, fewer buyers will mean fewer being made. Thus you have a shortage.

guess again. bought my HK-91 for $389 prior to Clintons assault weapons ban. at the range about 9 months ago I was offered $4500 for it. If I was even considering selling it I could have worked that initial offer up. you can't out price guns. they thought they could out price ammo. it went up 5 times the going rate with Obama's push after sandy hook. what happened. every available piece of ammo sold out. manufacturers ramped up production, added shifts and still they can not meet the demand. when something becomes too expensive or too difficult to get by conventional means, what happens? the black market. they thought they could out price cigarettes. it reaches a threshold and now there is an market for the black market. people don't care, they say fuck the government and their taxes and they buy black market. more people are making their own ammo now too. it's easy.

Cigarette consumption is generally at it's lowest point in history due in no small part to the price having to be paid.

It could work very easily with guns.

As for this black market; yeah okay. I could probably get my next TV set from a guy selling them out of his van for cheaper than I'll pay at Wal*Mart. I'm likely to still go to Wal*Mart. Ninety percent of the people would do the same .

It's a comical argument.

No honey, whats comical is that you think you can get guns out of the hands of the criminals who use them by pssing more laws