Keeping guns from criminals - liberals, what is your plan?

[RKMBrown]

But you can go to this "black market" and buy them cheaper; right?

Why go to the black market when it's legal to buy guns? Why would I do that?

You're not paying sales tax.

Today, only criminals need to buy illegal guns. The fact that they are criminals makes the illegal market more expensive due to the risk.

Oh...so the black market is more expensive.

There is no benefit to the bulk of the market to use the black market when there is a fair priced capitalist free market.

So raising the price would automatically force businessmen, housewives and college students to go to this shady black market instead of just saving up for a couple of more weeks?

Is THAT your argument?

Sales tax is insignificant when compared to the risk of buying illegal guns.

The black market for good guns is certainly more expensive today.

The black market would not be more expensive if a restrictive tax were applied to guns.

The market would move from walmart to the back alleys where pot is sold. The pot sellers would have a new product.

There is a line that the government can cross, beyond which the people revolt. Look at prohibition and the war on drugs as evidence. Pot is dirt cheap. Guns are dirt cheap.

You are not paying attn.

 

[candycorn]

Retard. It's legal to buy guns.

But you can go to this "black market" and buy them cheaper; right?

The point was that if you drive up the price of guns, THEN they will be cheaper on the black market. Criminals won't have a problem getting them. The whole point of this is that your policies make it harder and harder for people to defend themselves without keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. Seriously, after all this discussion, you don't get that?

You're assuming supply will remain the same as it is today. It won't. The price lowers demand and thus lowers supply

In fact, you'll likely see the price escalation keep guns out of the hands of the criminals and the youth.

Why?

If something costs 1 week's pay, it's pretty easy to get it.
If something costs 3 week's pay, it's harder to get; agreed?

So the unemployed (a lot of criminals don't have a day job; nor do kids like Kleibold, Harris, and that A-Hole who shot up Sandy Hook, Va Tech, Gabby Giffords etc (I can't list all of the recent perps and their financial conditions but suffice to say that many are not hob nobbing with Bill Gates) won't be able to afford the weaponry they seek.

It will take quite a while but we really need to do something.

 

[RKMBrown]

But you can go to this "black market" and buy them cheaper; right?

The point was that if you drive up the price of guns, THEN they will be cheaper on the black market. Criminals won't have a problem getting them. The whole point of this is that your policies make it harder and harder for people to defend themselves without keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. Seriously, after all this discussion, you don't get that?

You're assuming supply will remain the same as it is today. It won't. The price lowers demand and thus lowers supply

In fact, you'll likely see the price escalation keep guns out of the hands of the criminals and the youth.

Why?

If something costs 1 week's pay, it's pretty easy to get it.
If something costs 3 week's pay, it's harder to get; agreed?

So the unemployed (a lot of criminals don't have a day job; nor do kids like Kleibold, Harris, and that A-Hole who shot up Sandy Hook, Va Tech, Gabby Giffords etc (I can't list all of the recent perps and their financial conditions but suffice to say that many are not hob nobbing with Bill Gates) won't be able to afford the weaponry they seek.

It will take quite a while but we really need to do something.

ROFL typical authoritarian thinks they can force demand to decrease by screwing people over. ROFL

I have tons of guns. Make it illegal I'd love to make some good money off my inventory.

What we need to do is put people like you, who take our liberties away, in jail.

 

[Antares]

The point was that if you drive up the price of guns, THEN they will be cheaper on the black market. Criminals won't have a problem getting them. The whole point of this is that your policies make it harder and harder for people to defend themselves without keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. Seriously, after all this discussion, you don't get that?

You're assuming supply will remain the same as it is today. It won't. The price lowers demand and thus lowers supply

In fact, you'll likely see the price escalation keep guns out of the hands of the criminals and the youth.

Why?

If something costs 1 week's pay, it's pretty easy to get it.
If something costs 3 week's pay, it's harder to get; agreed?

So the unemployed (a lot of criminals don't have a day job; nor do kids like Kleibold, Harris, and that A-Hole who shot up Sandy Hook, Va Tech, Gabby Giffords etc (I can't list all of the recent perps and their financial conditions but suffice to say that many are not hob nobbing with Bill Gates) won't be able to afford the weaponry they seek.

It will take quite a while but we really need to do something.

ROFL typical authoritarian thinks they can force demand to decrease by screwing people over. ROFL

I have tons of guns. Make it illegal I'd love to make some good money off my inventory.

She is as dense as it gets.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Drugs are already legal in the states, only it's a protected monopoly on the producers and the drugs have to be purchased through scripts. Eliminate the monopoly and the prescription requirement and the price falls.

If guns were outlawed, there would be legal ways around buying them illegally too.

People that are consuming heroin, blow and weed aren't going to be amenable to red tape. They'll just want to go down to the store, grab what they want and splurge.

 

[MikeK]

Cigarette consumption is generally at it's lowest point in history due in no small part to the price having to be paid.

It could work very easily with guns.

[...]

Increasing their cost would make guns readily available to the wealthy while systematically impeding ordinary citizens access to them, thereby systematically defeating the fundamental purpose of the Second Amendment.

Also, cigarettes and guns are not a valid comparison because cigarettes harm all who use them while only a very small percentage of guns are misused.

 

[RKMBrown]

Drugs are already legal in the states, only it's a protected monopoly on the producers and the drugs have to be purchased through scripts. Eliminate the monopoly and the prescription requirement and the price falls.

If guns were outlawed, there would be legal ways around buying them illegally too.

People that are consuming heroin, blow and weed aren't going to be amenable to red tape. They'll just want to go down to the store, grab what they want and splurge.

So? Why should I be punished for their desire to drink themselves or drug themselves to death?

Look someone aborted a baby, make it illegal to have sex?

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Drugs are already legal in the states, only it's a protected monopoly on the producers and the drugs have to be purchased through scripts. Eliminate the monopoly and the prescription requirement and the price falls.

If guns were outlawed, there would be legal ways around buying them illegally too.

People that are consuming heroin, blow and weed aren't going to be amenable to red tape. They'll just want to go down to the store, grab what they want and splurge.

So? Why should I be punished for their desire to drink themselves or drug themselves to death?

I don't think you should be. That's just why I feel the prices would go up.

 

[candycorn]

Why go to the black market when it's legal to buy guns? Why would I do that?

You're not paying sales tax.


Oh...so the black market is more expensive.

There is no benefit to the bulk of the market to use the black market when there is a fair priced capitalist free market.

So raising the price would automatically force businessmen, housewives and college students to go to this shady black market instead of just saving up for a couple of more weeks?

Is THAT your argument?

Sales tax is insignificant when compared to the risk of buying illegal guns.

I'm of the opinion that if it's illegal, thats a barrier to entry regardless of price. I'm also of the opinion that the barrier will remain there. Nobody really needs a gun in this day and age so if it comes down to "break the law or buy a gun from a guy at a flea market", I'm pretty sure that most won't buy the gun.

The black market for good guns is certainly more expensive today.

The black market would not be more expensive if a restrictive tax were applied to guns.

Well, it's not a tax. The manufacturer would have to basically put a bond amount for a set period of time with each weapon they make.

As for the amount of price increase to push people in to commiting an illegal act for an item they don't need...you tell me; how much would it have to go up to make you buy an illegal product?

The market would move from walmart to the back alleys where pot is sold. The pot sellers would have a new product.

There is a line that the government can cross, beyond which the people revolt. Look at prohibition and the war on drugs as evidence. Pot is dirt cheap. Guns are dirt cheap.

You are not paying attn.

I agree with prohibition and I agree with the war on drugs. Which is why I'm not saying make guns illegal.

 

[kaz]

But you can go to this "black market" and buy them cheaper; right?

The point was that if you drive up the price of guns, THEN they will be cheaper on the black market. Criminals won't have a problem getting them. The whole point of this is that your policies make it harder and harder for people to defend themselves without keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. Seriously, after all this discussion, you don't get that?

You're assuming supply will remain the same as it is today. It won't. The price lowers demand and thus lowers supply

In fact, you'll likely see the price escalation keep guns out of the hands of the criminals and the youth.

Why?

If something costs 1 week's pay, it's pretty easy to get it.
If something costs 3 week's pay, it's harder to get; agreed?

So the unemployed (a lot of criminals don't have a day job; nor do kids like Kleibold, Harris, and that A-Hole who shot up Sandy Hook, Va Tech, Gabby Giffords etc (I can't list all of the recent perps and their financial conditions but suffice to say that many are not hob nobbing with Bill Gates) won't be able to afford the weaponry they seek.

It will take quite a while but we really need to do something.

Damn, I was going to go on a shooting rampage, but damn, three weeks salary to buy a gun? Pass...

High schoolers can afford pot. How expensive can guns get? Not very. You can't keep black markets from operating in free countries. I realize as an authoritarian you don't want a free country, but just picking guns isn't going to work. You're going to have to seal the borders and fill the prisons ala Singapore style to have a chance.

 

[candycorn]

Cigarette consumption is generally at it's lowest point in history due in no small part to the price having to be paid.

It could work very easily with guns.

[...]

Increasing their cost would make guns readily available to the wealthy while systematically impeding ordinary citizens of access, thereby systematically defeating the fundamental purpose of the Second Amendment.

Also, cigarettes and guns are not a valid comparison because cigarettes harm all who use them while only a very small percentage of guns are misused.

They also harm people who are near people who are using them.

Still the cigarette taxes are on every pack sold; not only for those who are getting cancer.

 

[candycorn]

The point was that if you drive up the price of guns, THEN they will be cheaper on the black market. Criminals won't have a problem getting them. The whole point of this is that your policies make it harder and harder for people to defend themselves without keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. Seriously, after all this discussion, you don't get that?

You're assuming supply will remain the same as it is today. It won't. The price lowers demand and thus lowers supply

In fact, you'll likely see the price escalation keep guns out of the hands of the criminals and the youth.

Why?

If something costs 1 week's pay, it's pretty easy to get it.
If something costs 3 week's pay, it's harder to get; agreed?

So the unemployed (a lot of criminals don't have a day job; nor do kids like Kleibold, Harris, and that A-Hole who shot up Sandy Hook, Va Tech, Gabby Giffords etc (I can't list all of the recent perps and their financial conditions but suffice to say that many are not hob nobbing with Bill Gates) won't be able to afford the weaponry they seek.

It will take quite a while but we really need to do something.

ROFL typical authoritarian thinks they can force demand to decrease by screwing people over. ROFL

I have tons of guns. Make it illegal I'd love to make some good money off my inventory.

What we need to do is put people like you, who take our liberties away, in jail.

It worked with cigarettes. It will work with guns.

Your liberties are safe. Nothing in the Constitution sets the price of the gun you're able to purchase. Remington does that.

 

[RKMBrown]

You're assuming supply will remain the same as it is today. It won't. The price lowers demand and thus lowers supply

In fact, you'll likely see the price escalation keep guns out of the hands of the criminals and the youth.

Why?

If something costs 1 week's pay, it's pretty easy to get it.
If something costs 3 week's pay, it's harder to get; agreed?

So the unemployed (a lot of criminals don't have a day job; nor do kids like Kleibold, Harris, and that A-Hole who shot up Sandy Hook, Va Tech, Gabby Giffords etc (I can't list all of the recent perps and their financial conditions but suffice to say that many are not hob nobbing with Bill Gates) won't be able to afford the weaponry they seek.

It will take quite a while but we really need to do something.

ROFL typical authoritarian thinks they can force demand to decrease by screwing people over. ROFL

I have tons of guns. Make it illegal I'd love to make some good money off my inventory.

What we need to do is put people like you, who take our liberties away, in jail.

It worked with cigarettes. It will work with guns.

Your liberties are safe. Nothing in the Constitution sets the price of the gun you're able to purchase. Remington does that.

Cigs give you cancer. Guns save your life. Cig taxes pushed purchases to the Indian Reservations and other black market sources. Cigs becoming unpopular reduced the number of people smoking them.

Yeah same thing.

Remington does not hold a monopoly. The reason guns are cheap is the fact that there is no monopoly. The price of guns is set by supply and demand.

 

[candycorn]

The point was that if you drive up the price of guns, THEN they will be cheaper on the black market. Criminals won't have a problem getting them. The whole point of this is that your policies make it harder and harder for people to defend themselves without keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. Seriously, after all this discussion, you don't get that?

You're assuming supply will remain the same as it is today. It won't. The price lowers demand and thus lowers supply

In fact, you'll likely see the price escalation keep guns out of the hands of the criminals and the youth.

Why?

If something costs 1 week's pay, it's pretty easy to get it.
If something costs 3 week's pay, it's harder to get; agreed?

So the unemployed (a lot of criminals don't have a day job; nor do kids like Kleibold, Harris, and that A-Hole who shot up Sandy Hook, Va Tech, Gabby Giffords etc (I can't list all of the recent perps and their financial conditions but suffice to say that many are not hob nobbing with Bill Gates) won't be able to afford the weaponry they seek.

It will take quite a while but we really need to do something.

Damn, I was going to go on a shooting rampage, but damn, three weeks salary to buy a gun? Pass...

See, it's working.

High schoolers can afford pot.

First it was cars, now pot seems to be the equation.

Pot is one of those rites of passage for kids. Many try; comparatively few relative to those who try continue use.

How expensive can guns get? Not very.
You can't keep black markets from operating in free countries. I realize as an authoritarian you don't want a free country, but just picking guns isn't going to work. You're going to have to seal the borders and fill the prisons ala Singapore style to have a chance.

I'm hoping we make all gun crimes a federal crime; you use a gun (not fire it--just have it with you) while commiting a crime; soyanara for 10 years. Pretty authoratarian I suppose but I'll be happy to wear that bage for a safer society.

The assumption that the nurse who wants a gun will discover this yellow pages directing her to the alley where she can buy a gun, ignore the law she abides every day, and plunk down cold hard cash is nutty but that seems to be a common streak with gun nuts...

Most of whom insist they need a gun to kill the feds who are coming along any day now to confiscate said gun; all the while insisting that we never reduce funding for those same feds.

It's a strange dynamic...insisting we keep funding the department of the govenrnment you fear most.

 

[RKMBrown]

You're assuming supply will remain the same as it is today. It won't. The price lowers demand and thus lowers supply

In fact, you'll likely see the price escalation keep guns out of the hands of the criminals and the youth.

Why?

If something costs 1 week's pay, it's pretty easy to get it.
If something costs 3 week's pay, it's harder to get; agreed?

So the unemployed (a lot of criminals don't have a day job; nor do kids like Kleibold, Harris, and that A-Hole who shot up Sandy Hook, Va Tech, Gabby Giffords etc (I can't list all of the recent perps and their financial conditions but suffice to say that many are not hob nobbing with Bill Gates) won't be able to afford the weaponry they seek.

It will take quite a while but we really need to do something.

Damn, I was going to go on a shooting rampage, but damn, three weeks salary to buy a gun? Pass...

See, it's working.

High schoolers can afford pot.

First it was cars, now pot seems to be the equation.

Pot is one of those rites of passage for kids. Many try; comparatively few relative to those who try continue use.

How expensive can guns get? Not very.
You can't keep black markets from operating in free countries. I realize as an authoritarian you don't want a free country, but just picking guns isn't going to work. You're going to have to seal the borders and fill the prisons ala Singapore style to have a chance.

I'm hoping we make all gun crimes a federal crime; you use a gun (not fire it--just have it with you) while commiting a crime; soyanara for 10 years. Pretty authoratarian I suppose but I'll be happy to wear that bage for a safer society.

The assumption that the nurse who wants a gun will discover this yellow pages directing her to the alley where she can buy a gun, ignore the law she abides every day, and plunk down cold hard cash is nutty but that seems to be a common streak with gun nuts...

Most of whom insist they need a gun to kill the feds who are coming along any day now to confiscate said gun; all the while insisting that we never reduce funding for those same feds.

It's a strange dynamic...insisting we keep funding the department of the govenrnment you fear most.

Why do you want a gun free society with a "homeland" security force that is every bit as powerful as the mightiest military on the planet?

To what end do you want this supposed security?

What is your end game? Communism, Facism?

 

[candycorn]

ROFL typical authoritarian thinks they can force demand to decrease by screwing people over. ROFL

I have tons of guns. Make it illegal I'd love to make some good money off my inventory.

What we need to do is put people like you, who take our liberties away, in jail.

It worked with cigarettes. It will work with guns.

Your liberties are safe. Nothing in the Constitution sets the price of the gun you're able to purchase. Remington does that.

Cigs give you cancer. Guns save your life. Cig taxes pushed purchases to the Indian Reservations and other black market sources. Cigs becoming unpopular reduced the number of people smoking them.

Yeah same thing.

Remington does not hold a monopoly. The reason guns are cheap is the fact that there is no monopoly. The price of guns is set by supply and demand.

We have a lot of indian reservations here; there are very few who are being over-run by smokers. You're telling stories.

We also need to stigmatize guns; they really don't make you safer. If they did, we would have almost zero gun deaths per year since we have a gazillion guns in this nation.

 

[candycorn]

Damn, I was going to go on a shooting rampage, but damn, three weeks salary to buy a gun? Pass...

See, it's working.


First it was cars, now pot seems to be the equation.

Pot is one of those rites of passage for kids. Many try; comparatively few relative to those who try continue use.

How expensive can guns get? Not very.
You can't keep black markets from operating in free countries. I realize as an authoritarian you don't want a free country, but just picking guns isn't going to work. You're going to have to seal the borders and fill the prisons ala Singapore style to have a chance.

I'm hoping we make all gun crimes a federal crime; you use a gun (not fire it--just have it with you) while commiting a crime; soyanara for 10 years. Pretty authoratarian I suppose but I'll be happy to wear that bage for a safer society.

The assumption that the nurse who wants a gun will discover this yellow pages directing her to the alley where she can buy a gun, ignore the law she abides every day, and plunk down cold hard cash is nutty but that seems to be a common streak with gun nuts...

Most of whom insist they need a gun to kill the feds who are coming along any day now to confiscate said gun; all the while insisting that we never reduce funding for those same feds.

It's a strange dynamic...insisting we keep funding the department of the govenrnment you fear most.

Why do you want a gun free society with a "homeland" security force that is every bit as powerful as the mightiest military on the planet?

To what end do you want this supposed security?

What is your end game? Communism, Facism?

Oh brother.
Never said that. Anyone who wants a gun can still get a gun. I just want it to be more expensive driving the supply down ultimately.

Fewer gunshot victims in our emergency rooms at my hospitals is my goal.

Fewer

Sandy Hooks
Columbines
Virginia Techs
etc....

Would be nicer too.

Stringent enforcement of gun laws; promotion of gun crimes to Federal level where there is no parole and you're gone for the entire length of yoru sentence would be a big help. Federal Prosecutors have something like a 90+ % conviction rate. Aim that at armed robbers you end up with fewre armed robbers.

 

[RKMBrown]

It worked with cigarettes. It will work with guns.

Your liberties are safe. Nothing in the Constitution sets the price of the gun you're able to purchase. Remington does that.

Cigs give you cancer. Guns save your life. Cig taxes pushed purchases to the Indian Reservations and other black market sources. Cigs becoming unpopular reduced the number of people smoking them.

Yeah same thing.

Remington does not hold a monopoly. The reason guns are cheap is the fact that there is no monopoly. The price of guns is set by supply and demand.

We have a lot of indian reservations here; there are very few who are being over-run by smokers. You're telling stories.

We also need to stigmatize guns; they really don't make you safer. If they did, we would have almost zero gun deaths per year since we have a gazillion guns in this nation.

Does my machete make me safer than my shotgun? Should I use a pistol to kill a cougar when it attacks my dogs, or a pen knife?

 

[candycorn]

Cigs give you cancer. Guns save your life. Cig taxes pushed purchases to the Indian Reservations and other black market sources. Cigs becoming unpopular reduced the number of people smoking them.

Yeah same thing.

Remington does not hold a monopoly. The reason guns are cheap is the fact that there is no monopoly. The price of guns is set by supply and demand.

We have a lot of indian reservations here; there are very few who are being over-run by smokers. You're telling stories.

We also need to stigmatize guns; they really don't make you safer. If they did, we would have almost zero gun deaths per year since we have a gazillion guns in this nation.

Does my machete make me safer than my shotgun? Should I use a pistol to kill a cougar when it attacks my dogs, or a pen knife?

If guns made us safer, we'd have fewer gun deaths in this nation since our citizens have, by far, more guns than any other society. Instead, we are among the leader in gun deaths in advanced societies.

So statistically, the machete makes you safer.

 

[RKMBrown]

See, it's working.


First it was cars, now pot seems to be the equation.

Pot is one of those rites of passage for kids. Many try; comparatively few relative to those who try continue use.



I'm hoping we make all gun crimes a federal crime; you use a gun (not fire it--just have it with you) while commiting a crime; soyanara for 10 years. Pretty authoratarian I suppose but I'll be happy to wear that bage for a safer society.

The assumption that the nurse who wants a gun will discover this yellow pages directing her to the alley where she can buy a gun, ignore the law she abides every day, and plunk down cold hard cash is nutty but that seems to be a common streak with gun nuts...

Most of whom insist they need a gun to kill the feds who are coming along any day now to confiscate said gun; all the while insisting that we never reduce funding for those same feds.

It's a strange dynamic...insisting we keep funding the department of the govenrnment you fear most.

Why do you want a gun free society with a "homeland" security force that is every bit as powerful as the mightiest military on the planet?

To what end do you want this supposed security?

What is your end game? Communism, Facism?

Oh brother.
Never said that. Anyone who wants a gun can still get a gun. I just want it to be more expensive driving the supply down ultimately.

Fewer gunshot victims in our emergency rooms at my hospitals is my goal.

Fewer

Sandy Hooks
Columbines
Virginia Techs
etc....

Would be nicer too.

Stringent enforcement of gun laws; promotion of gun crimes to Federal level where there is no parole and you're gone for the entire length of yoru sentence would be a big help. Federal Prosecutors have something like a 90+ % conviction rate. Aim that at armed robbers you end up with fewre armed robbers.

Those were "gun free zones." We already have strict laws regarding criminals that use guns. The problem with guns today is the people who want gun free zones enable psyco killers.