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Every war has had longterm casualties. Are you denying the shell shocked of WWI and WWII? Are you denying the syndromes that came out of Vietnam and both gulf wars?
There is a small minority of veterans who come back psychotic, violent and angry. The DC Sniper was in the Guard and then the Army: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Muhammad
Charles Whitman was a Marine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
There are many others. I have clearly stated that the human mind is far too complex to generalize but that the weak psyche of some individuals cannot handle the stress of military training and/or combat.
But the stats remain, there are killers and violent abusers (physical, psychological and sexual) who emerge from the military and every war.
No what the stats show is that serving in the military doesn't inoculate all that serve from murdering. That's all that's shown.Every war has had longterm casualties. Are you denying the shell shocked of WWI and WWII? Are you denying the syndromes that came out of Vietnam and both gulf wars?
There is a small minority of veterans who come back psychotic, violent and angry. The DC Sniper was in the Guard and then the Army: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Muhammad
Charles Whitman was a Marine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
There are many others. I have clearly stated that the human mind is far too complex to generalize but that the weak psyche of some individuals cannot handle the stress of military training and/or combat.
But the stats remain, there are killers and violent abusers (physical, psychological and sexual) who emerge from the military and every war.
Are you arguing that those with shell shock or PTS are all killers? Are you arguing that all that serve in the military are killers? Are you arguing that serving in the military makes one more likely to murder, which was the implied premise of the series, though it failed to prove such? Are you arguing that the vets that do murder, would NOT have done so, if they hadn't served?
What exactly were you arguing?
No what the stats show is that serving in the military doesn't inoculate all that serve from murdering. That's all that's shown.
I am implying that some of the killers that emerged from military service may not have killed. Some people have a fragile psyche that - when traumatized - may bring out violent tendencies.
Not all, some. That was my original contention. You made a good point and I moved in that direction. But you seem so hell bent on justifying the military and demonizing me that you refuse to even see my points.
Shell shocked veterans are not killers, but their condition speaks to the fragility of the human mind in the face of brutal aggression. Do you understand now or do you need to nit pick me some more?
Okay, that I can agree with. Some people fcome out of the military better people and some come out all fucked up and that is a fact we can both agree on.
That was my point. Sorry for the confusion.I think the stats used by winds of change would probably hold up better with research, but in no case could a definitive case be made. Simple reason is, the military like police departments try to weed out the 'fragile.' My guess is they do a pretty good, but not perfect job.
Every war has had longterm casualties. Are you denying the shell shocked of WWI and WWII? Are you denying the syndromes that came out of Vietnam and both gulf wars?
There is a small minority of veterans who come back psychotic, violent and angry. The DC Sniper was in the Guard and then the Army: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Muhammad
Charles Whitman was a Marine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
There are many others. I have clearly stated that the human mind is far too complex to generalize but that the weak psyche of some individuals cannot handle the stress of military training and/or combat.
But the stats remain, there are killers and violent abusers (physical, psychological and sexual) who emerge from the military and every war.
As opposed to veterans who are just violent or abusive to their families?Did either the DC Sniper or Charles Whitman serve during a war and actually see combat?
Let's make the stats fair instead of this one-sided stuff. We'll narrow it down to just Afghanistan/Iraq from Sep 11, 2001 to present.
Please provide the number of military personnel who have during that time. Then provide the number of miltary personnel who were deployed to either Iraq or Afghanistan. Further provide the number of how many of those actually served in combat.
Then take the 121 and separate them into specific crimes. How many deaths were premeditated 1st degree murder? How many were 2nd degree murder? How many were wrongful death/manslaughter; which, the NY Times felt free to include among the total.
What percentage of military personnel who actually saw combat comprise the percentage who actually committed murder?
How does that percentage compare to the percentage of nonveterans in the US during that same timeframe who committed murder?
Take your time answering, but you have no argument with out.
Wow first you agree that there were problems with the article regarding assigning blame to military service, now you want to expand those problems?
As opposed to veterans who are just violent or abusive to their families?
(D.C. Sniper) Williams also saw duty in the Persian Gulf War and held three military job specialties: metalworker, combat engineer and water transport specialist. His highest rank held was sergeant. His awards and decorations include the Army Achievement Medal, the National Defense Service Ribbon and the Kuwaiti Liberation Medal. He qualified as expert with both the M-16 rifle and hand grenades, according to the Department of Defense.
Due to privacy restrictions and pending court actions, the status of Williams' military discharge could not be disclosed.
Suspect's Military Marksmanship Training
U.S. Army officials confirmed that sniper suspect Muhammad, while serving under the name "Williams," had earned an expert rating with the Colt M-16, the standard infantry rifle issued by the U.S. Military. The expert badge is the highest of three levels of marksmanship attainable by soldiers receiving basic training.
That's one down. Those are support MOSs, not combat arms.
Charles Whitman never saw combat. He was in the MECEP program at UT, then when his scolarship was withdrawn for being a dumbass, he spent the rest of his hitch at Camp Lejeune.
I dunno, a Combat Engineer aint much more than a demo qualed grunt. Now, since I wasn't Army, I don't know what they have to do to be an expert with the M16 or Grenade.
He should have been shot.
and that is a problem for reasonable discussion.
But killers are not the only problem and, especially concerning veterans, violence is the root of the entire problem and means addiction, abusive relationships, and murder.
