Lest we forget...

[Boston1]

In what way am I justifying the killing of children, let alone simply because they are Palestinian? Where or when have I EVER said such a thing?! Or anything close to such a thing?!

I am the one who is trying to inject some nuance and context into this whole conversation while you, and others, are claiming that some Jewish folk decided it would be cool to murder some innocent Palestinian women and children without cause.

You are equating ME and my comments with Odious as though they are equivalent. They are most certainly not.

To me, it seems as if you are justifying it as part of a pitched battle, and by denying it was a massacre. You are denying the Palestinians their history by marginalizing it. By denying that they intended to kill those women and children or that is was some sort of self defense. They were beasts! They were no different than the killers of the Fogels and a thousand other atrocities. There is no cause for killing children!

Actually we have both refuted there being any such thing as an Arab Muslim palestinian or even any palestinians today. Historically all palestinians were Jewish persons. Assofat attempted to retask the term palestinian into meaning Arab Muslims in the late 1960 and only the weak minded and ignorant bought into it.

I'm feeling pretty safe in saying we also would both refute there being any sufficient evidence to suggest there was a massacre at herr youdreamitup at all.

The facts would indicate that the entire story was a PR effort for political gain

Deflection and red herring.

Horse pucky

Sheep nuggets.

Arab Muslim road apples ;--)

The simple fact of the matter is that one can never trust the Arab Muslim narrative. Its pure fantasy.

 

[docmauser1]

The "massacre", that never was.

 

[Boston1]

there was no massacre

what there was, was a diatribe designed to incite violence

With no corroborating evidence to support the Arab Muslim narrative.

Why am I not surprised

 

[Shusha]

You are just as capable of atrocities as I (my people) are, as the Palestinians are - as any human being is.

I disagree. The capability for committing atrocities is sourced, not in just being human, but in the ideology of one's culture and what one believes and then the willingness to ACT upon those beliefs.

When it comes to gunning down children - looking them in the eye and shooting them because they are Arabs and serve as an example to frighten Palestinians into fleeing - there is NO FALSE EQUIVALENCY and that term becomes meaningless when you insist on it.

But AGAIN, in your bold section, you are ascribing intent here to actors of these specific events, and by extension to the Jewish people, that is not actually SOURCED in either the actors nor the Jewish people as a whole. It is EXACTLY what I accused you of pages ago -- the mythologizing of the event to suit a narrative: "Jews shoot innocent women and children because they are Arabs". This is EXACTLY why the myth is perpetualized -- to infect the next generation with that thought -- that Jews shoot innocent women and children -- not because the Jews and the Arabs were (are) embroiled in a nasty and sometimes immoral and often complicated war over mutual rights to self-determination and territory -- but that Jews shoot innocent women and children because they are Arabs.

You illustrate it better than I could have ever hoped. Its not a complicated and nuanced conflict -- Jews just gun down children because they are Arabs.

This is WHY you, and others, see a (false) equivalence between acts of conflict and acts of egregious violence against innocents such as the Fogel family. Because you project the intent. You project the idea that conflict and combat is the same thing as killing innocents because they are Arabs (or Jews).

THIS is the myth that needs to be unmade and re-framed. Warfare, with all its tragedies and entirely unfair collateral damage, is NOT morally equivalent to murdering innocents in the streets or in their own homes.

There is absolutely a difference between mutual combat and the collateral damage which occurs during (as you already admitted) and walking into someone's house and slicing the throat of a three-month-old baby. If you can't see that, I honestly don't know what to say to you.

You seem to have, quite deliberately, passed over the entire context of the resistance, and combat and military action as though it is immaterial to the morality of this or that specific event. Its not.

 

[Challenger]

EXCEPT that --- the US didn't have the excuse of being "state-less" or "new-state" disorganized.

Neither did Zionist Israel. By the time they declared statehood they had fully a functioning state infrastructure and military high command. The Haganah units themselves were well trained and in several cases composed of WW2 veterans from all the allied armies. All they lacked were heavy weapons and ammunition and aircraft, which arrived in the first weeks of the war. After the first truce, the Zionists were constantly on the offensive.

That's the way states evolve.. You think it happens like a Bernie Sanders TV commercial??

EXCEPT that --- the US didn't have the excuse of being "state-less" or "new-state" disorganized.

Neither did Zionist Israel. By the time they declared statehood they had fully a functioning state infrastructure and military high command. The Haganah units themselves were well trained and in several cases composed of WW2 veterans from all the allied armies. All they lacked were heavy weapons and ammunition and aircraft, which arrived in the first weeks of the war. After the first truce, the Zionists were constantly on the offensive.

This is way states are born. You think it happens like a Bernie Sanders TV Commercial? USUALLY requires have a military organization as a top priority. Don't you know this??

There was no organized Israel when this happened. It's the kind of "stateless" action that the world has to grapple with DAILY now because of 47 different stateless (or proxies to Iran/Saudi etc) Muslim Militant groups. And they answer to HISTORY.. Not to any of their allies.

Never having seen a Bernie Sanders TV commercial, I can't comment, I'm well aware of how and when Zionist Israel was "formed" from 1919 the Zionists began to organise the infrastructure of a functioning future state; RoccoR is fond of expounding how they had made all the "steps preparatory to independance" by 1948. Zionist Israel was an organised state in waiting for decades. There was little chaos and confusion in 1948, the Hagana was well briefed and the long prepared war plan put into action the moment the state was declared. This was not a "stateless action" as you put it but part of the overall strategy to remove the Muslim Palestinian population so the Zionists could create their demographic majority.

 

[Challenger]

I think people tend to add mass "rape" claims...

I agree, the consensus view from all sides is that the mass rape claims were exaggerations in the case of Deir Yassin, but that does not mean to say they didn't happen, perhaps not at Deir Yassin, but elsewhere. Why would Ben-Gurion devote part of his dairy to rape cases reports if he wasn't concerned about the problem. Also it should be remembered that many Eastern European Jewish people in Palestine had served in the Red Army, which was notorious for the way it treated captive women.

The truth behind The Rape of Berlin

Very interesting

lets review

Quote

I agree, the consensus view from all sides is that the mass rape claims were exaggerations

End Quote

So at last you agree with my original claims thats great, lets read on.

Quote

but that does not mean to say they didn't happen, perhaps not at Deir Yassin, but elsewhere.

End Quote

So now that we can be reasonably assured no incidence of mass rape or even a single rape at all ever occurred at DY you are simply going to move your accusation on to some unknown conflict in some unknown land ? Brilliant argument, those debating skills failing you again.

I'd move on but there's really nothing of substance to warrant further review.

The simple reality obvious within your post is you base your claims off, nothing. Its pure conjecture meant only to incite further hatred among those ignorant enough to buy into it.

Best We Forget

Still got nothing then? No surprise there, just more moves from the Hasbara playbook.

 

[Challenger]

There are also several indications that a massacre was not the intent, though, yes, it was suggested. The idea was vehemently rejected (by Begin, if memory serves). Thus, the truck with the megaphone, while ineffective due to unforseen circumstances, was present and demonstrates intent to allow the villagers to flee. There are other indications as well.


The next question is whether or not the Jewish forces encountered resistance.

I think the evidence that a massacre was not the intent is weak, for several reasons. One is Irgun/Lehi's intent to terrify the Arabs and make a strong statement in the process. A massacre is the most effective means of doing so and indeed, it was one of the biggest drivers in pushing the Palestinians to flee their homes elsewhere.

Begin may have rejected the idea, but Irgun, under Begin's leadership, conducted some of it's most viscious attacks against civilian targets where previously, attacks had been more against military and police targets.

From the same article I quoted from before:

Were people warned to leave by loudspeaker?


Much space has been wasted on a truck, covered pickup or armored car with a loudspeaker, that either did or did not warn villagers about the impending attack. For example, see ZOA study, 1998: The first of the Jewish fighting units to reach Deir Yassin was led by a truck armed with a loudspeaker. An Iraqi-born Jew, who spoke fluent Arabic, called out to the residents to leave via the western exit from Deir Yassin, which the attackers had left clear for that purpose. Soon after entering the town, however, the truck was hit by Arab gunfire and careened into a ditch. 51


No reference is given in the ZOA study. All other references insist that this truck never got into the village.,51 According to Milstein, “The armored car with the loudspeaker left Givat Shaul a few minutes before 5:00 AM as planned, and by then the battle had already started.” So it was not leading the first unit in this account. Moreover, according to Milstein, the truck never got into the village at all: Ezra Yachin related, “After we filled in the ditch we continued travelling. We passed two barricades and stopped in front of the third, 30 meters away from the village. One of us called out on the loudspeaker in Arabic, telling the inhabitants to put down their weapons and flee. I don’t know if they heard, and I know these appeals had no effect. We alighted from the armored car and joined the attack” 52


There is no mention of being fired upon as the reason for stopping, as in the ZOA report.


An Arab witness in the BBC/WGBH documentary film on the Israel-Palestinian struggle stated that he heard the loudspeaker. So we must assume that at least some people heard this truck. However, the fact is that no Arabs were ever allowed to return to Deir Yassin. Warning people to evacuate there homes forever is not a humanitarian gestures, but a psychological warfare scare tactic.


The whole question is beside the point. It was either a humanitarian gesture that failed, or a device to scare the defenders into leaving. But if the village was peaceful, and had a pact like Abu Ghosh, it could have been taken peacefully like Abu Ghosh, as the Haganah apparently planned. The importance of the truck is that Menachem Begin said, in a radio broadcast soon after the event, that the truck was a great humanitarian gesture, and he repeated that that villagers had been warned by the truck in his book “In the Underground,” 53 though by that time he certainly knew it was not true.​

They would have encountered some resistance - after all, the village was being attacked despite a pact of non-aggression. But given the lack of experience, poor equipment and organizational abilities of the attacking forces, it's amazing only 5 attackers were killed by the villagers.


Deir Yassin: The Massacre

On April 9, 1948, one month before Israel declared itself a nation, a force of about 120 members of Irgun Zvai Leumi (IZL) and the Lehi, or Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin and massacred up to 130 Palestinians, most of them women, children and older people.

The village was not undefended. Villagers killed five attackers and wounded 30 others. As Israeli historian Benny Morris wrote, “Deir Yassin is not remembered as a military operation, but rather for the atrocities committed by the IZL and LHI troops during and immediately after the drawn-out battle: Whole families were riddled with bullets and grenade fragments and buried when houses were blown up on top of them; men, women and children were mowed down as they emerged from houses; individuals were taken aside and shot. At the end of the battle, groups of old men, women and children were trucked through West Jerusalem’s streets in a kind of ‘victory parade’ and then dumped in (Arab) East Jerusalem.”​

But your basing your opine ;--) that if there was an operation it was intended as a massacre on one single statement made in a questionable op ed piece about "secret documents recently released" that apparently no one can produce.

Same flawed argument as all the rest. If we do believe in the op ed piece, then there are numerous accounts attesting to the event being nothing more than maybe a typical skirmish. If we do not believe in the op ed piece then the statement you base your argument on is no more believable than the rest of it.

Either way its Best we Forget the propaganda of the past only intended to incite further violence.

Would you tell the Jews to forget the massacres of their people?

Already been there in post #112. He's just doing his usual soft-shoe-shuffle, duck and dive, routine that he does when he's lost the argument and is clutching at straws.

 

[Challenger]

....looking pretty desperate there Monty ole bean.

Nowhere near as desperate as you.

 

[Challenger]

there was no massacre

what there was, was a diatribe designed to incite violence

With no corroborating evidence to support the Arab Muslim narrative.

Why am I not surprised

 

[Challenger]

We know the Holocaust occurred,

Did it? these people clearly would disagree with you:

Arthur Butz's Personal Web site
Author: Arthur Butz
http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~abutz/
Web page of Arthur R. Butz. Associate Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering at Northwestern University, in Evanston, Illinois, USA. This web site includes essays and articles questioning the existence of the Holocaust.

The Zundelsite
Authors: Ernst Zundel and Ingrid Rimland
Home
Ingrid Rimland's The Zundelsite is dedicated to the life and work of famous Canadian Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel. Rimland is his wife and webmaster and she promotes her books and his Holocaust denial discourse, which is disguised as a political platform.

IHR (Institute for Historical Review)
Authors: Mark Weber and Greg Raven
INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW --
This web site claims to offer scholarly information and thoughtful commentary on a wide range of historical issues, including the "Holocaust," Auschwitz, World War II, Stalin, Hitler. It is known to be the largest anti-Semitic publisher in the world. They also publish a periodical called the Journal of Historical Review which can be accessed from most Academic Libraries.

The Barnes Review
Author: Willis Carto
(no title)
The Barnes Review, a bi-monthly newsletter published by one of the world's biggest anti-Semites attempts to tell the truth from a racist point of view. Carto claims that most of the media is published from a Jewish perspective that is twisted and inaccurate. His journal attempts to bring the whole truth to the public.

CODOH (Committee for the Open Debate on the Holocaust)
Author: Bradley Smith
Codoh.com | Welcome
This site claims to promote intellectual freedom with regard to this one historical event, which in turn will promote intellectual freedom toward all historical events (thus all other issues). We have chosen to concentrate on the gas chamber stories and war crimes trials because they are emblematic of the allegedly unique monstrosity of the Germans before and during World War II.

CODOH Newsletter
codoh.org
Author: Bradley Smith
This web site is the newsletter of CODOH

David Irving / Focal Point Publications
Real History!Welcome to David Irving's Website
Focal Point Publications, David Irving's publishing company, strives to campaign for Real History. He publishes a newsletter called the "Action Report" as well as indexes his site into various categories: online eBooks for free download, archived Action Report newsletters, links to Traditional Enemies of Free Speech, The Deborah Lipstadt trial index, and an alphabetical index to all of his web files.

Air Photo Evidence
Author: John C. Ball
http://www.air-photo.com
John Ball's Website claims to illustrate with air photo evidence, that there were no holes in the alleged gas chambers in Auschwitz - Birkenau. He claims that the eye-witnesses have all lied.

VHO
Historical Revisionism by Vrij Historisch Onderzoek
Author: Germane Rudolf/Castle Hill Publishers
This web site's goal is to scientifically investigate historical events, particularly those of the 20th century, without limitations imposed by dogmas or axioms. Its goal is to correct unjust reporting or accounts of events of the 20th century. This web site's goal, like all other Holocaust denial web sites is to further public debate about the subject generally described as the 'Holocaust'

Campaign for Radical Truth in History
Mr. Hoffman's Blog
Author: Michael Hoffmann II
This web site claims to be the preeminent source for truly independent research. This site claims to have "investigative reporting that peers into topics you simply cannot find discussed in today's controlled media." Hoffman's site delves into the mysteries of history and he claims that his organization is at the cutting edge of legitimate, studious conspiracy research.

Adelaide Institute
Australia's Democracy put to the test
Author: Fredrick Toben
This web site is the organization run by Dr. Fredrick Toben. He publishes a newsletter, and various web documents about Holocaust denial. A very small and simple web site with his main arguments on the front page: that the gas chambers did not exist during World War II

Carlos Whitlock Porter
The website of Carlos Whitlock Porter
Author: Carlos Whitlock Porter's personal web site, where he promotes his book "Made in Russia: The Holocaust" and he rants on and on how he hates the world's Jews and he strongly believes in a world Jewish conspiracy theory. He is both humourous and sarcastic and bitter in his site. He coins the term Holoco$t and Holohoax.

Pathfinder Repository


...and if you bother to read through their articles, you will find the same arguments you have posted about the Deir Yassin massacre.

 

[Phoenall]

There are also several indications that a massacre was not the intent, though, yes, it was suggested. The idea was vehemently rejected (by Begin, if memory serves). Thus, the truck with the megaphone, while ineffective due to unforseen circumstances, was present and demonstrates intent to allow the villagers to flee. There are other indications as well.


The next question is whether or not the Jewish forces encountered resistance.

I think the evidence that a massacre was not the intent is weak, for several reasons. One is Irgun/Lehi's intent to terrify the Arabs and make a strong statement in the process. A massacre is the most effective means of doing so and indeed, it was one of the biggest drivers in pushing the Palestinians to flee their homes elsewhere.

Begin may have rejected the idea, but Irgun, under Begin's leadership, conducted some of it's most viscious attacks against civilian targets where previously, attacks had been more against military and police targets.

From the same article I quoted from before:

Were people warned to leave by loudspeaker?


Much space has been wasted on a truck, covered pickup or armored car with a loudspeaker, that either did or did not warn villagers about the impending attack. For example, see ZOA study, 1998: The first of the Jewish fighting units to reach Deir Yassin was led by a truck armed with a loudspeaker. An Iraqi-born Jew, who spoke fluent Arabic, called out to the residents to leave via the western exit from Deir Yassin, which the attackers had left clear for that purpose. Soon after entering the town, however, the truck was hit by Arab gunfire and careened into a ditch. 51


No reference is given in the ZOA study. All other references insist that this truck never got into the village.,51 According to Milstein, “The armored car with the loudspeaker left Givat Shaul a few minutes before 5:00 AM as planned, and by then the battle had already started.” So it was not leading the first unit in this account. Moreover, according to Milstein, the truck never got into the village at all: Ezra Yachin related, “After we filled in the ditch we continued travelling. We passed two barricades and stopped in front of the third, 30 meters away from the village. One of us called out on the loudspeaker in Arabic, telling the inhabitants to put down their weapons and flee. I don’t know if they heard, and I know these appeals had no effect. We alighted from the armored car and joined the attack” 52


There is no mention of being fired upon as the reason for stopping, as in the ZOA report.


An Arab witness in the BBC/WGBH documentary film on the Israel-Palestinian struggle stated that he heard the loudspeaker. So we must assume that at least some people heard this truck. However, the fact is that no Arabs were ever allowed to return to Deir Yassin. Warning people to evacuate there homes forever is not a humanitarian gestures, but a psychological warfare scare tactic.


The whole question is beside the point. It was either a humanitarian gesture that failed, or a device to scare the defenders into leaving. But if the village was peaceful, and had a pact like Abu Ghosh, it could have been taken peacefully like Abu Ghosh, as the Haganah apparently planned. The importance of the truck is that Menachem Begin said, in a radio broadcast soon after the event, that the truck was a great humanitarian gesture, and he repeated that that villagers had been warned by the truck in his book “In the Underground,” 53 though by that time he certainly knew it was not true.​

They would have encountered some resistance - after all, the village was being attacked despite a pact of non-aggression. But given the lack of experience, poor equipment and organizational abilities of the attacking forces, it's amazing only 5 attackers were killed by the villagers.


Deir Yassin: The Massacre

On April 9, 1948, one month before Israel declared itself a nation, a force of about 120 members of Irgun Zvai Leumi (IZL) and the Lehi, or Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin and massacred up to 130 Palestinians, most of them women, children and older people.

The village was not undefended. Villagers killed five attackers and wounded 30 others. As Israeli historian Benny Morris wrote, “Deir Yassin is not remembered as a military operation, but rather for the atrocities committed by the IZL and LHI troops during and immediately after the drawn-out battle: Whole families were riddled with bullets and grenade fragments and buried when houses were blown up on top of them; men, women and children were mowed down as they emerged from houses; individuals were taken aside and shot. At the end of the battle, groups of old men, women and children were trucked through West Jerusalem’s streets in a kind of ‘victory parade’ and then dumped in (Arab) East Jerusalem.”​

But your basing your opine ;--) that if there was an operation it was intended as a massacre on one single statement made in a questionable op ed piece about "secret documents recently released" that apparently no one can produce.

Same flawed argument as all the rest. If we do believe in the op ed piece, then there are numerous accounts attesting to the event being nothing more than maybe a typical skirmish. If we do not believe in the op ed piece then the statement you base your argument on is no more believable than the rest of it.

Either way its Best we Forget the propaganda of the past only intended to incite further violence.

Would you tell the Jews to forget the massacres of their people?

That is a proven massacre beyond all doubt. This one is unproven and extremely mixed up in its testimony. How can you believe one person account , yet in the same post deny their next comments as lies. The first supports your POV the second goes against your POV

 

[Phoenall]

This Saturday was the 68th Anniversary of the Deir Yassin massacre. As no-one's opened a thread about it I thought I would."The ma ssacre came in spite of Deir Yassin resident's efforts to maintain positive relations with new Jewish neighbors, including the signing of pact that was approved by Haganah, a main Zionist paramilitary organization during the British Mandate of Palestine." Palestinians mark 68th anniversary of Deir Yassin massacre

Yeah, 68 years since the "massacre", that never was, of course. Tell the lies long enough, and folks may, actually, start believing them, indeed.

You sound like a Holocaust Denier. Same rationalizations.

Yeah, right. Uri Milshtein, quoting Shimon Moneta "Everyone exaggerated. Most of them had never seen so many dead before, and the high figure was convenient for all involved. The dissidents wanted to brag and scare the Arabs. The Hagana and Jewish Agency wanted to smear the dissidents and scare the Arabs. The Arabs wanted to smear the Jews. The British wanted to smear Jewish terrorists. They all latched on to a number invented by Ra’anan. We loaded 30 bodies onto the truck. That was the main group. There were about another 30; all told - about 60 bodies. I reported that to my SHAI operator, who reported to his chiefs.".
Docmauser, the Deir-Yassin denier. Funny.

Consensus seems to agree that the 240 was inflated but around 130 or so minimum. Most were women, children, elderly.

And the mass murder of Palestinians in the 1970's by other Palestinians goes unreported by everyone. I wonder why.


That one was reported to be between 5,000 and 50,000 men, women and children who were caged at the time of their deaths

 

[Phoenall]

We know the Holocaust occurred,

Did it? these people clearly would disagree with you:

Arthur Butz's Personal Web site
Author: Arthur Butz
http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~abutz/
Web page of Arthur R. Butz. Associate Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering at Northwestern University, in Evanston, Illinois, USA. This web site includes essays and articles questioning the existence of the Holocaust.

The Zundelsite
Authors: Ernst Zundel and Ingrid Rimland
Home
Ingrid Rimland's The Zundelsite is dedicated to the life and work of famous Canadian Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel. Rimland is his wife and webmaster and she promotes her books and his Holocaust denial discourse, which is disguised as a political platform.

IHR (Institute for Historical Review)
Authors: Mark Weber and Greg Raven
INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW --
This web site claims to offer scholarly information and thoughtful commentary on a wide range of historical issues, including the "Holocaust," Auschwitz, World War II, Stalin, Hitler. It is known to be the largest anti-Semitic publisher in the world. They also publish a periodical called the Journal of Historical Review which can be accessed from most Academic Libraries.

The Barnes Review
Author: Willis Carto
(no title)
The Barnes Review, a bi-monthly newsletter published by one of the world's biggest anti-Semites attempts to tell the truth from a racist point of view. Carto claims that most of the media is published from a Jewish perspective that is twisted and inaccurate. His journal attempts to bring the whole truth to the public.

CODOH (Committee for the Open Debate on the Holocaust)
Author: Bradley Smith
Codoh.com | Welcome
This site claims to promote intellectual freedom with regard to this one historical event, which in turn will promote intellectual freedom toward all historical events (thus all other issues). We have chosen to concentrate on the gas chamber stories and war crimes trials because they are emblematic of the allegedly unique monstrosity of the Germans before and during World War II.

CODOH Newsletter
codoh.org
Author: Bradley Smith
This web site is the newsletter of CODOH

David Irving / Focal Point Publications
Real History!Welcome to David Irving's Website
Focal Point Publications, David Irving's publishing company, strives to campaign for Real History. He publishes a newsletter called the "Action Report" as well as indexes his site into various categories: online eBooks for free download, archived Action Report newsletters, links to Traditional Enemies of Free Speech, The Deborah Lipstadt trial index, and an alphabetical index to all of his web files.

Air Photo Evidence
Author: John C. Ball
http://www.air-photo.com
John Ball's Website claims to illustrate with air photo evidence, that there were no holes in the alleged gas chambers in Auschwitz - Birkenau. He claims that the eye-witnesses have all lied.

VHO
Historical Revisionism by Vrij Historisch Onderzoek
Author: Germane Rudolf/Castle Hill Publishers
This web site's goal is to scientifically investigate historical events, particularly those of the 20th century, without limitations imposed by dogmas or axioms. Its goal is to correct unjust reporting or accounts of events of the 20th century. This web site's goal, like all other Holocaust denial web sites is to further public debate about the subject generally described as the 'Holocaust'

Campaign for Radical Truth in History
Mr. Hoffman's Blog
Author: Michael Hoffmann II
This web site claims to be the preeminent source for truly independent research. This site claims to have "investigative reporting that peers into topics you simply cannot find discussed in today's controlled media." Hoffman's site delves into the mysteries of history and he claims that his organization is at the cutting edge of legitimate, studious conspiracy research.

Adelaide Institute
Australia's Democracy put to the test
Author: Fredrick Toben
This web site is the organization run by Dr. Fredrick Toben. He publishes a newsletter, and various web documents about Holocaust denial. A very small and simple web site with his main arguments on the front page: that the gas chambers did not exist during World War II

Carlos Whitlock Porter
The website of Carlos Whitlock Porter
Author: Carlos Whitlock Porter's personal web site, where he promotes his book "Made in Russia: The Holocaust" and he rants on and on how he hates the world's Jews and he strongly believes in a world Jewish conspiracy theory. He is both humourous and sarcastic and bitter in his site. He coins the term Holoco$t and Holohoax.

Pathfinder Repository


...and if you bother to read through their articles, you will find the same arguments you have posted about the Deir Yassin massacre.

And all you have is holocaust deniers that have been proven wrong time after time. The only people who can have all these at their fingertips are other holocaust deniers and Nazi's and they lose all their credibility as soon as they start linking to the holocaust denial web sites.

A pity we don't have the same laws as mainland Europe were holocaust denial is a criminal offence, and you cant get a lawyer to defend you in court. If we did your identity would be spread all over the front pages.

 

[Phoenall]

There are also several indications that a massacre was not the intent, though, yes, it was suggested. The idea was vehemently rejected (by Begin, if memory serves). Thus, the truck with the megaphone, while ineffective due to unforseen circumstances, was present and demonstrates intent to allow the villagers to flee. There are other indications as well.


The next question is whether or not the Jewish forces encountered resistance.

I think the evidence that a massacre was not the intent is weak, for several reasons. One is Irgun/Lehi's intent to terrify the Arabs and make a strong statement in the process. A massacre is the most effective means of doing so and indeed, it was one of the biggest drivers in pushing the Palestinians to flee their homes elsewhere.

Begin may have rejected the idea, but Irgun, under Begin's leadership, conducted some of it's most viscious attacks against civilian targets where previously, attacks had been more against military and police targets.

From the same article I quoted from before:

Were people warned to leave by loudspeaker?


Much space has been wasted on a truck, covered pickup or armored car with a loudspeaker, that either did or did not warn villagers about the impending attack. For example, see ZOA study, 1998: The first of the Jewish fighting units to reach Deir Yassin was led by a truck armed with a loudspeaker. An Iraqi-born Jew, who spoke fluent Arabic, called out to the residents to leave via the western exit from Deir Yassin, which the attackers had left clear for that purpose. Soon after entering the town, however, the truck was hit by Arab gunfire and careened into a ditch. 51


No reference is given in the ZOA study. All other references insist that this truck never got into the village.,51 According to Milstein, “The armored car with the loudspeaker left Givat Shaul a few minutes before 5:00 AM as planned, and by then the battle had already started.” So it was not leading the first unit in this account. Moreover, according to Milstein, the truck never got into the village at all: Ezra Yachin related, “After we filled in the ditch we continued travelling. We passed two barricades and stopped in front of the third, 30 meters away from the village. One of us called out on the loudspeaker in Arabic, telling the inhabitants to put down their weapons and flee. I don’t know if they heard, and I know these appeals had no effect. We alighted from the armored car and joined the attack” 52


There is no mention of being fired upon as the reason for stopping, as in the ZOA report.


An Arab witness in the BBC/WGBH documentary film on the Israel-Palestinian struggle stated that he heard the loudspeaker. So we must assume that at least some people heard this truck. However, the fact is that no Arabs were ever allowed to return to Deir Yassin. Warning people to evacuate there homes forever is not a humanitarian gestures, but a psychological warfare scare tactic.


The whole question is beside the point. It was either a humanitarian gesture that failed, or a device to scare the defenders into leaving. But if the village was peaceful, and had a pact like Abu Ghosh, it could have been taken peacefully like Abu Ghosh, as the Haganah apparently planned. The importance of the truck is that Menachem Begin said, in a radio broadcast soon after the event, that the truck was a great humanitarian gesture, and he repeated that that villagers had been warned by the truck in his book “In the Underground,” 53 though by that time he certainly knew it was not true.​

They would have encountered some resistance - after all, the village was being attacked despite a pact of non-aggression. But given the lack of experience, poor equipment and organizational abilities of the attacking forces, it's amazing only 5 attackers were killed by the villagers.


Deir Yassin: The Massacre

On April 9, 1948, one month before Israel declared itself a nation, a force of about 120 members of Irgun Zvai Leumi (IZL) and the Lehi, or Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin and massacred up to 130 Palestinians, most of them women, children and older people.

The village was not undefended. Villagers killed five attackers and wounded 30 others. As Israeli historian Benny Morris wrote, “Deir Yassin is not remembered as a military operation, but rather for the atrocities committed by the IZL and LHI troops during and immediately after the drawn-out battle: Whole families were riddled with bullets and grenade fragments and buried when houses were blown up on top of them; men, women and children were mowed down as they emerged from houses; individuals were taken aside and shot. At the end of the battle, groups of old men, women and children were trucked through West Jerusalem’s streets in a kind of ‘victory parade’ and then dumped in (Arab) East Jerusalem.”​

But your basing your opine ;--) that if there was an operation it was intended as a massacre on one single statement made in a questionable op ed piece about "secret documents recently released" that apparently no one can produce.

Same flawed argument as all the rest. If we do believe in the op ed piece, then there are numerous accounts attesting to the event being nothing more than maybe a typical skirmish. If we do not believe in the op ed piece then the statement you base your argument on is no more believable than the rest of it.

Either way its Best we Forget the propaganda of the past only intended to incite further violence.

Would you tell the Jews to forget the massacres of their people?

Again you are assuming. We know the Holocaust occurred, we don't know this particular event occurred. Actually we are seeing a lot of evidence to suggest it never occurred or was merely a propaganda ploy like much of the rest of the Arab Muslim narrative.

We also see a lot of extraordinary claims being made on the part of Pallywood and others representing the Arab Muslim narrative which we know isn't just historically inaccurate, but wildly inaccurate.

On the other hand we see an effort on the part of the Israeli's to own up to any misdeeds and put them in the past. Oft times the Israeli's even issue apologies and begins trials before all the evidence is in. The beach bombing for instance. Turned out to be a terrorist land mine. Yet the Israeli's instantly stepped up and said oops.

Long story short the Arab Muslim narrative lost all credibility ages ago. So I find it extremely difficult to offer it the benefit of the doubt when even Arab witnesses are claiming its all one big fat lie.

We know this particular event occured. There are corpses to prove it, and much more - the statements and apologies of Jewish groups. You can be doubtful - they were not. It was an atrocity. It was admitted as such.

The Jews always apoligise for any event they are accused of, then when the investigation is finished rescind the apology and lay the blame were it is due. This is just what is happening here, they apologise first and then after further investigation they produce the truth.

 

[Phoenall]

I think the evidence that a massacre was not the intent is weak, for several reasons. One is Irgun/Lehi's intent to terrify the Arabs and make a strong statement in the process. A massacre is the most effective means of doing so and indeed, it was one of the biggest drivers in pushing the Palestinians to flee their homes elsewhere.

Begin may have rejected the idea, but Irgun, under Begin's leadership, conducted some of it's most viscious attacks against civilian targets where previously, attacks had been more against military and police targets.

From the same article I quoted from before:

Were people warned to leave by loudspeaker?


Much space has been wasted on a truck, covered pickup or armored car with a loudspeaker, that either did or did not warn villagers about the impending attack. For example, see ZOA study, 1998: The first of the Jewish fighting units to reach Deir Yassin was led by a truck armed with a loudspeaker. An Iraqi-born Jew, who spoke fluent Arabic, called out to the residents to leave via the western exit from Deir Yassin, which the attackers had left clear for that purpose. Soon after entering the town, however, the truck was hit by Arab gunfire and careened into a ditch. 51


No reference is given in the ZOA study. All other references insist that this truck never got into the village.,51 According to Milstein, “The armored car with the loudspeaker left Givat Shaul a few minutes before 5:00 AM as planned, and by then the battle had already started.” So it was not leading the first unit in this account. Moreover, according to Milstein, the truck never got into the village at all: Ezra Yachin related, “After we filled in the ditch we continued travelling. We passed two barricades and stopped in front of the third, 30 meters away from the village. One of us called out on the loudspeaker in Arabic, telling the inhabitants to put down their weapons and flee. I don’t know if they heard, and I know these appeals had no effect. We alighted from the armored car and joined the attack” 52


There is no mention of being fired upon as the reason for stopping, as in the ZOA report.


An Arab witness in the BBC/WGBH documentary film on the Israel-Palestinian struggle stated that he heard the loudspeaker. So we must assume that at least some people heard this truck. However, the fact is that no Arabs were ever allowed to return to Deir Yassin. Warning people to evacuate there homes forever is not a humanitarian gestures, but a psychological warfare scare tactic.


The whole question is beside the point. It was either a humanitarian gesture that failed, or a device to scare the defenders into leaving. But if the village was peaceful, and had a pact like Abu Ghosh, it could have been taken peacefully like Abu Ghosh, as the Haganah apparently planned. The importance of the truck is that Menachem Begin said, in a radio broadcast soon after the event, that the truck was a great humanitarian gesture, and he repeated that that villagers had been warned by the truck in his book “In the Underground,” 53 though by that time he certainly knew it was not true.​

They would have encountered some resistance - after all, the village was being attacked despite a pact of non-aggression. But given the lack of experience, poor equipment and organizational abilities of the attacking forces, it's amazing only 5 attackers were killed by the villagers.


Deir Yassin: The Massacre

On April 9, 1948, one month before Israel declared itself a nation, a force of about 120 members of Irgun Zvai Leumi (IZL) and the Lehi, or Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin and massacred up to 130 Palestinians, most of them women, children and older people.

The village was not undefended. Villagers killed five attackers and wounded 30 others. As Israeli historian Benny Morris wrote, “Deir Yassin is not remembered as a military operation, but rather for the atrocities committed by the IZL and LHI troops during and immediately after the drawn-out battle: Whole families were riddled with bullets and grenade fragments and buried when houses were blown up on top of them; men, women and children were mowed down as they emerged from houses; individuals were taken aside and shot. At the end of the battle, groups of old men, women and children were trucked through West Jerusalem’s streets in a kind of ‘victory parade’ and then dumped in (Arab) East Jerusalem.”​

But your basing your opine ;--) that if there was an operation it was intended as a massacre on one single statement made in a questionable op ed piece about "secret documents recently released" that apparently no one can produce.

Same flawed argument as all the rest. If we do believe in the op ed piece, then there are numerous accounts attesting to the event being nothing more than maybe a typical skirmish. If we do not believe in the op ed piece then the statement you base your argument on is no more believable than the rest of it.

Either way its Best we Forget the propaganda of the past only intended to incite further violence.

Would you tell the Jews to forget the massacres of their people?

Again you are assuming. We know the Holocaust occurred, we don't know this particular event occurred. Actually we are seeing a lot of evidence to suggest it never occurred or was merely a propaganda ploy like much of the rest of the Arab Muslim narrative.

We also see a lot of extraordinary claims being made on the part of Pallywood and others representing the Arab Muslim narrative which we know isn't just historically inaccurate, but wildly inaccurate.

On the other hand we see an effort on the part of the Israeli's to own up to any misdeeds and put them in the past. Oft times the Israeli's even issue apologies and begins trials before all the evidence is in. The beach bombing for instance. Turned out to be a terrorist land mine. Yet the Israeli's instantly stepped up and said oops.

Long story short the Arab Muslim narrative lost all credibility ages ago. So I find it extremely difficult to offer it the benefit of the doubt when even Arab witnesses are claiming its all one big fat lie.

"In the exchange that followed four [Irgun] men were killed and a dozen were wounded ... by noon time the battle was over and the shooting had ceased. Although there was calm, the village had not yet surrendered. The Irgun and LEHI men came out of hiding and began to `clean' the houses. They shot whoever they saw, women and children included, the commanders did not try to stop the massacre .... I pleaded with the commander to order his men to cease fire, but to no avail. In the meantime, 25 Arabs had been loaded on a truck and driven through Mahne Yehuda and Zichron Yousef (like prisoners in a Roman `March of Triumph'). At the end of the drive, they were taken to the quarry between Deir Yassin and Giv'at Shaul, and murdered in cold blood ... The commanders also declined when asked to take their men and bury the 254 Arab bodies. This unpleasant task was performed by two Gadna units brought to the village from Jerusalem."

Meir Pail’s Eyewitness Account

Copyright 1998 by Dr. Meir Pail and Dr. Ami Isseroff. All rights reserved. May not be reproduced in any form without the express permission of the authors.

Based on an interview conducted October 1, 1998 by Ami Isseroff at the Yad Tabenkin Institute of the United Kibbutz Movement Seminar in Ramat Efal Israel.

This long cut and paste appears to have come from someone's personal blog.

When I see these long cut and paste articles with content removed (per the various ellipses), I'm suspicious of fraud on the part of the cut and paster.

Is that why you did not provide a link?

It is from an islamonazi propaganda source .................. Presented by the PEACE Middle East Dialog Group


That is why he did not post a link

 

[Phoenall]

But your basing your opine ;--) that if there was an operation it was intended as a massacre on one single statement made in a questionable op ed piece about "secret documents recently released" that apparently no one can produce.

Same flawed argument as all the rest. If we do believe in the op ed piece, then there are numerous accounts attesting to the event being nothing more than maybe a typical skirmish. If we do not believe in the op ed piece then the statement you base your argument on is no more believable than the rest of it.

Either way its Best we Forget the propaganda of the past only intended to incite further violence.

Would you tell the Jews to forget the massacres of their people?

Again you are assuming. We know the Holocaust occurred, we don't know this particular event occurred. Actually we are seeing a lot of evidence to suggest it never occurred or was merely a propaganda ploy like much of the rest of the Arab Muslim narrative.

We also see a lot of extraordinary claims being made on the part of Pallywood and others representing the Arab Muslim narrative which we know isn't just historically inaccurate, but wildly inaccurate.

On the other hand we see an effort on the part of the Israeli's to own up to any misdeeds and put them in the past. Oft times the Israeli's even issue apologies and begins trials before all the evidence is in. The beach bombing for instance. Turned out to be a terrorist land mine. Yet the Israeli's instantly stepped up and said oops.

Long story short the Arab Muslim narrative lost all credibility ages ago. So I find it extremely difficult to offer it the benefit of the doubt when even Arab witnesses are claiming its all one big fat lie.

We know this particular event occured. There are corpses to prove it, and much more - the statements and apologies of Jewish groups. You can be doubtful - they were not. It was an atrocity. It was admitted as such.

It was hyped on all sides for political reasons. If it occurred at all or even remotely of the proportions suggested there would be clear evidence instead of all this about how it never happened or only a few people were involved.

PS
What happened to your sources for those numbers you presented ?

What wasn't hyped was the fact that women and children were shot in cold blood. Remember when I asked Odium if he could look a child in the eye and shoot him? He said yes. Odium is no different than these so-called soldiers (paramilitary militias) who did EXACTLY that. Whether it's 240 or 130 - it's too many and it's inexcusable.

Deir Yassin massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The fighting was over by about 11:00 am. Jacques de Reynier, head of the International Committee of the Red Cross delegation in Palestine, visited Deir Yassin on April 11, 1948, and observed "a total of more than 200 dead, men, women, and children".[39] Mordechai Ranaan, Irgun's district commander in Jerusalem, gave a news conference at Givat Shaul at which he claimed 240 were killed. This story was repeated by the BBC and the Hebrew news services. The New York Times, April 13, 1948, reported that 254 Arabs were killed at Deir Yassin.[40] Sharif Kan'ana of Bir Zeit University interviewed survivors and published figures in 1988: 107 villagers had died, 11 of them armed, with 12 wounded.[41] An Irgun fighter testified years later that Irgun and Lehi men had killed 80 prisoners after the fighting was over. Gelber writes that the figure is inflated and has not been corroborated. Kan'ana writes that 25 villagers were executed and thrown into the quarry after the battle, which Gelber regards as accurate.[42

Also, here: Lest we forget...


I think you're yanking my chain...if you are or not - my opinion has seen no evidence to change it. A massacre occured, such things do in war. The dominant Jewish groups decried it and apologized for it. Should the Palestinians forget it? An event marked by 1) a non-aggression pact that they had held to, according to evidence and 2) the horrible slaughter of the elderly, women and CHILDREN killed in cold blood. Should it really be brushed under the rug, turned into a non-entity? Really?

A massacre occurred in Hebron in 1929 when more Jews were killed than this one, why is that swept under the carpet ?


Why is it that atrocities against the Jews are denied, ignored and swept away, but unsubstantiated attacks by the Jews draw much attention and personal attacks ?


The jury is still out on Deir Yasin so until the verdict is in we should not be trying to change history on here.

 

[docmauser1]

When it comes to gunning down children - looking them in the eye and shooting them because they are Arabs and serve as an example to frighten Palestinians into fleeing - there is NO FALSE EQUIVALENCY and that term becomes meaningless when you insist on it.

Our honorable coyote seems to be an eyewitness to anything anywhere, anytime. A wildly creative imagination, hiding the reality on the ground. Palistanians want, desperately, to get "massacred", or something, to prove they're "massacred", of course.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

To me, it seems as if you are justifying it as part of a pitched battle, and by denying it was a massacre. You are denying the Palestinians their history by marginalizing it. By denying that they intended to kill those women and children or that is was some sort of self defense. They were beasts! They were no different than the killers of the Fogels and a thousand other atrocities. There is no cause for killing children!

I am NOT denying Palestinians their history. They are most welcome to their history.

What I deny is THEIR narrative about OUR intent and OUR character (beasts, apparently!). I absolutely deny that WE are no different than the killers of the Fogels.

You talk about "we". The thing is - the "we" - people - vary. The Jews have their monsters too - you have your beasts. You are just as capable of atrocities as I (my people) are, as the Palestinians are - as any human being is. Irgun and Lehi were well on the perimeter of what was acceptable. Their behavior at Deir Yassin was so extreme, that hagana issued an apology. Irgun under Begin was known for an upswing in violence directed at civilian targets, and was known for this. When they were known for extremist positions that would tolerate NO partition or sharing of Palestine...and you still seem to say there is no possible way their character was less than impeccable.

And indeed, it is this sort of false equivalency that I most vehemently stand against.

When it comes to gunning down children - looking them in the eye and shooting them because they are Arabs and serve as an example to frighten Palestinians into fleeing - there is NO FALSE EQUIVALENCY and that term becomes meaningless when you insist on it.

Yet, you defend Palestinians whose only wish is to murder Jews, acknowledge that if they had their way, Jews would be exterminated, and consider mass murder of Jews to be a heroic action.

You top that off by stalking those who do not share your ethnic hatred.

if you are looking for monsters, I hear that Bed Bath and Beyond is having a sale on mirrors.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Thanks for this. Historical context is always appreciated. You can't study history without a context. It was only fairly recently I learned of the King David Hotel bombing, which will be 70 years this summer. History books seem to have a knack for finding something crucial to ignore.

How cute. You just learned of the King David Hotel bombing and suddenly you are an expert prattling on about context.

I learned about the King David Hotel bombing in the 1960s, and the difference between the two of us, besides the enormous difference in the length of time we have been aware of events, is that I learned about history while actually studying history. You learned about it by exposing yourself to internet sites with a vested interest. That ain't "context", kid, it is the very lack thereof.

Arabs have spent an absolutely enormous effort in propaganda. Heck, they were even able to invent a completely new people called "Palestinians" out of whole cloth in order to appeal to the sensibilities of low functioning leftists who react in Pavlovian fashion any time a group is presented to them as a victim class. They have mastered this art so thoroughly that people now take it for granted that Arabs ARE the victims, and this despite the fact that Arabs outnumber Jews by such a considerable margin in population, territory controlled, influence on the world stage and any other conceivable barometer that only an utter idiot would fail to notice.

 

[Boston1]

EXCEPT that --- the US didn't have the excuse of being "state-less" or "new-state" disorganized.

Neither did Zionist Israel. By the time they declared statehood they had fully a functioning state infrastructure and military high command. The Haganah units themselves were well trained and in several cases composed of WW2 veterans from all the allied armies. All they lacked were heavy weapons and ammunition and aircraft, which arrived in the first weeks of the war. After the first truce, the Zionists were constantly on the offensive.

That's the way states evolve.. You think it happens like a Bernie Sanders TV commercial??

EXCEPT that --- the US didn't have the excuse of being "state-less" or "new-state" disorganized.

Neither did Zionist Israel. By the time they declared statehood they had fully a functioning state infrastructure and military high command. The Haganah units themselves were well trained and in several cases composed of WW2 veterans from all the allied armies. All they lacked were heavy weapons and ammunition and aircraft, which arrived in the first weeks of the war. After the first truce, the Zionists were constantly on the offensive.

This is way states are born. You think it happens like a Bernie Sanders TV Commercial? USUALLY requires have a military organization as a top priority. Don't you know this??

There was no organized Israel when this happened. It's the kind of "stateless" action that the world has to grapple with DAILY now because of 47 different stateless (or proxies to Iran/Saudi etc) Muslim Militant groups. And they answer to HISTORY.. Not to any of their allies.

Never having seen a Bernie Sanders TV commercial, I can't comment, I'm well aware of how and when Zionist Israel was "formed" from 1919 the Zionists began to organise the infrastructure of a functioning future state; RoccoR is fond of expounding how they had made all the "steps preparatory to independance" by 1948. Zionist Israel was an organised state in waiting for decades. There was little chaos and confusion in 1948, the Hagana was well briefed and the long prepared war plan put into action the moment the state was declared. This was not a "stateless action" as you put it but part of the overall strategy to remove the Muslim Palestinian population so the Zionists could create their demographic majority.

Odd, you admitted earlier that the event likely never happened ;--)