Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

[sealybobo]

The problem is the Volt simply isn't enough. The ENTIRE PRODUCT line needs to be 'Volts". I want to by an all electric SUV but no one makes one yet. I can't get my family, or my kid's hockey teammates around in a Volt. I need and electric Suburban! Where is it? Guess I'm going to have to buy the all electric Forerunner Toyota is coming out with because GM or Ford won't get me one!

They're in the process of working it out. They need $50 billion to bridge the gap. If you want GM and Ford to die so Toyota and Honda can jack up their prices because there is no competition, let the Big 3 die. If you want all American workers wages to drop or stay where they are for the next 20 years, have the Big 3 die.

PS. I think Chrysler should die. I was watching something on tv last night and I guess Chrysler has not taken any steps towards changing/improving/modernizing. I think they should go.

 

[Skull Pilot]

They're in the process of working it out. They need $50 billion to bridge the gap. If you want GM and Ford to die so Toyota and Honda can jack up their prices because there is no competition, let the Big 3 die. If you want all American workers wages to drop or stay where they are for the next 20 years, have the Big 3 die.

PS. I think Chrysler should die. I was watching something on tv last night and I guess Chrysler has not taken any steps towards changing/improving/modernizing. I think they should go.

There's no competition NOW because the big 3 can't compete. Their business model is unsupportable in other words, their labor costs are too high. Period.

No bridge loan will solve that problem.

 

[editec]

There's no competition NOW because the big 3 can't compete. Their business model is unsupportable in other words, their labor costs are too high. Period.

No bridge loan will solve that problem.

Skull, are you aware that all new hires will be making about the same as the foreign auto makers?

PUt a tariff on auto parts coming into those foreign car makers (or just stop them from DUMPING those parts into this nation) and I suspect you'd very qucikly discover that the American Auto makers are very competeitive with them.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Skull, are you aware that all new hires will be making about the same as the foreign auto makers?

PUt a tariff on auto parts coming into those foreign car makers (or just stop them from DUMPING those parts into this nation) and I suspect you'd very qucikly discover that the American Auto makers are very competeitive with them.

It's not the new hires. After all how many new people will be hired when there is no demand for the product? It's the workers with seniority and the legacy costs of retirees and pension benefits that are dragging the big 3 down.

If the auto makers were willing to close down and restructure as non union operations like the foreign shops, then maybe they have a chance.

I don't know about protectionism. I see the big 3 fat and happy with the knowledge that they are safe from foreign competition in the US dumping shitty cars on us. You do remember the 70's and the crappy cars the big 3 were turning out don't you?

 

[sealybobo]

There's no competition NOW because the big 3 can't compete. Their business model is unsupportable in other words, their labor costs are too high. Period.

No bridge loan will solve that problem.

Not when Americans like you buy everything foreign even though it'll eventually catch up to you.

And retirees are dying every day and people who have been with the company for 20 years and need to go are being bought out. It's happening.

YES WE CAN! The 8 years of telling us why we can't is over.

Toyota and Honda manufacturing here in America is ok. NO cars should be imported in. Plants in Mexico, China and Europe need to sell those cars in Mexico, China and Europe, not here. Not without a big fat tariff.

What do you do for a living? What product does your company make? Let me explain how your job may be next.

Have you not seen how many jobs are impacted by the Big 3? You CLEARLY have no idea what will happen if the Big 3 go Chapter 11. Again, what do you do for a living? The idea that you would not be affected is almost laughable. And if you won't be impacted, then you are a real Republican. You make up about 20% of our population. And so, who cares what you think. Of course you want to keep us poor people down. Of course you want to protect the status quo. We are running this bitch now. Just remember that. Next year we'll show you YES WE CAN!

 

[Navy1960]

Skull, are you aware that all new hires will be making about the same as the foreign auto makers?

PUt a tariff on auto parts coming into those foreign car makers (or just stop them from DUMPING those parts into this nation) and I suspect you'd very qucikly discover that the American Auto makers are very competeitive with them.

Theres only one problem with that theory editec, Respectfully GM, Ford, and Chrysler all use foreign sources for auto parts into their supply chain. So to simply apply tariffs or to stop them from dumping will effect the Big 3 as well as foreign based car companies that assemble here in the United States. What needs to be done on a trade level is much the same that is being done here with Honda and Toyota in reverse. That is to insist that American car companies be allowed to build and construct factories that assemble cars in those countries and supply them with American made parts for them. It is slowly being done at this moment, take a look at the recent GM factory openings in China and Russia where their product is actually very popular. In fact the Big 3 build products world wide that are very popular. It is a matter of focusing on those that we elect to take into consideration that these assests like heavy industry have strategic value and deserve the same attention that they put on such matters as the K Steet golf outing.

The fact remains though that here in the United States UAW costs in healthcare and legacy costs are contributing to it's demise. When you look at the number of cars GM and others sale which are equal to or more than Toyota domestically and GM and the other Big 3 are failing when the foreign car companies are not then you have to look at ALL the costs. If these costs, trade issues, management issues, product issues, engineering issues, and brand association issues among others are not brought into line then thse companies will end up like the american textile industry. If you want a good example, I invite any UAW president or vp as well as auto CEO to take a ride to West Point, Ga. and look at the once mighty West Point Pepperell which at over 100 years and many many factories is now ALL gone. They exist now only in name and only in Pakistan. This will be the same fate that the Big 3 will share if they do not change in a radical way much to chagrin of it's very hard working workers.

 

[sealybobo]

It's not the new hires. After all how many new people will be hired when there is no demand for the product? It's the workers with seniority and the legacy costs of retirees and pension benefits that are dragging the big 3 down.

If the auto makers were willing to close down and restructure as non union operations like the foreign shops, then maybe they have a chance.

I don't know about protectionism. I see the big 3 fat and happy with the knowledge that they are safe from foreign competition in the US dumping shitty cars on us. You do remember the 70's and the crappy cars the big 3 were turning out don't you?

Do you propose renigging on what those people were promised? Of course you are. You probably cheered when Enron employees lost everything.

Why would there be no demand for American made cars if they are making them better. You must want them to fail. Who do you work for?

So you want to break the unions. Either you are rich, jealous or stupid.

But, I will give you this. Your last point does make sense. I believe that before Honda and Toyota came to America, the Big 3 made cars that purposely only lasted about 5 years. They wanted us to buy new cars every 4 or 5 years.

If the Big 3 go under, imagine how expensive Toyota's and Honda's will be with no competition!!

The best thing to do is loan the Big 3 the money IF they clean up their act and make trade fair. That's it. End of conversation.

We'll take your opinion under advisement Skull, just like Bush listened to the Democrats the 8 years he had control.

 

[Care4all]

There's no competition NOW because the big 3 can't compete. Their business model is unsupportable in other words, their labor costs are too high. Period.

No bridge loan will solve that problem.

I totally disagree regarding their labor costs making their business model unsupportable....

Toyota, paid their workers MORE with their bonuses, than the UAE workers in 2006/7....I posted an article on this the other day...

THIS MEANS that it is purely their business model in regards to product, that is at fault.....

I am not saying they DO NOT get paid too much for what their company is producing, but what i am saying is that if toyota could pay their employees $30 bucks an hour verses the UAW's $27 bucks an hour with their bonuses, and Toyota is NOT being strapped by having to pay these salaries, then this means THAT with the RIGHT PRODUCT, that SELLS at a good turn over rate and gross margin, employee high hourly rates can be supported, while still being profitable.

"Sales heals all troubles" when it comes to retail....even if at a lower gross margin, if the sales increase is big enough!

sales support the proration of employee costs....

sales supports the proration of all overhead costs... etc.

And the only way to increase sales is to have product that customers want to buy...

(Though there is another old saying that there NEVER is a bad product, but ONLY the WRONG retail price) So if something isn't selling, it is not necessarily because it is wrong, but because you have not priced it agressively enough...not priced it at the price that the product would ''sell it'' to the consumer.

Basically, if the Big three were hell on wheels and their product was selling and on fire... they could support even HIGHER salaries and compensation costs than what they are held to today.

BUT, their product is not up to par yet....they don't have at the right price, what customers want, thus the salaries for their employees negotiated in one of their "up" periods are extremely high for what they are selling "today".....

So, one of my solutions to this would be to set their salaries more on a commission or bonus structure....so that in slow times they get paid less and in booming times where they produce more....they get paid more.

care

 

[Skull Pilot]

Not when Americans like you buy everything foreign even though it'll eventually catch up to you.

How the fuck do you know what I drive? FYI I have a ford truck and if they are still in business in a year, I'll probably buy a new F250 diesel

And retirees are dying every day and people who have been with the company for 20 years and need to go are being bought out. It's happening.

And more people are retiring to replace the dead ones

YES WE CAN! The 8 years of telling us why we can't is over.

Yes we can what? Rape the taxpayers some more to bail out a failed business model?

Toyota and Honda manufacturing here in America is ok. NO cars should be imported in. Plants in Mexico, China and Europe need to sell those cars in Mexico, China and Europe, not here. Not without a big fat tariff.

protectionism results in crappy products

What do you do for a living? What product does your company make? Let me explain how your job may be next.

I work for myself so I will not lose my job

Have you not seen how many jobs are impacted by the Big 3? You CLEARLY have no idea what will happen if the Big 3 go Chapter 11. Again, what do you do for a living? The idea that you would not be affected is almost laughable. And if you won't be impacted, then you are a real Republican. You make up about 20% of our population. And so, who cares what you think. Of course you want to keep us poor people down. Of course you want to protect the status quo. We are running this bitch now. Just remember that. Next year we'll show you YES WE CAN!

As long as people have something to drive, whether it's American or foreign, I don't have to worry. My inventory will be delivered in Mitsubishi trucks instead of Fords and since the new trucks will probably cost the delivery company less to buy and operate, my costs could very well go down.

And how does thew fact that my business is not dependent on the big 3 make me a "real Republican"?

And again "YES YOU CAN" what?

Remember "Together we can" was the latest libby governor of MA slogan and if you want to know what he's done together with a libby state congress do a little research on how MA is going to be raising taxes during a recession and how MORE state workers have been hired.

Yeah YOU can alright. YOU CAN fuck things up even more.

 

[sealybobo]

Theres only one problem with that theory editec, Respectfully GM, Ford, and Chrysler all use foreign sources for auto parts into their supply chain. So to simply apply tariffs or to stop them from dumping will effect the Big 3 as well as foreign based car companies that assemble here in the United States. What needs to be done on a trade level is much the same that is being done here with Honda and Toyota in reverse. That is to insist that American car companies be allowed to build and construct factories that assemble cars in those countries and supply them with American made parts for them. It is slowly being done at this moment, take a look at the recent GM factory openings in China and Russia where their product is actually very popular. In fact the Big 3 build products world wide that are very popular. It is a matter of focusing on those that we elect to take into consideration that these assests like heavy industry have strategic value and deserve the same attention that they put on such matters as the K Steet golf outing.

The fact remains though that here in the United States UAW costs in healthcare and legacy costs are contributing to it's demise. When you look at the number of cars GM and others sale which are equal to or more than Toyota domestically and GM and the other Big 3 are failing when the foreign car companies are not then you have to look at ALL the costs. If these costs, trade issues, management issues, product issues, engineering issues, and brand association issues among others are not brought into line then thse companies will end up like the american textile industry. If you want a good example, I invite any UAW president or vp as well as auto CEO to take a ride to West Point, Ga. and look at the once mighty West Point Pepperell which at over 100 years and many many factories is now ALL gone. They exist now only in name and only in Pakistan. This will be the same fate that the Big 3 will share if they do not change in a radical way much to chagrin of it's very hard working workers.

Great post. Makes sense.

I only ask that you pay the retirees what they were promised. No renigging. If that means the CEO and his VP buddies have to work for less until all those retirees die, then so be it. Do you even realize how many retirees die a few years after they retire of cancer or heart attacks?

If we let them renig on the pensions, then the government will know they can renig on the social security too just by telling us they can't afford it.

This is another example of "THE MAN" wants to see how far he can go. Just like they did with gas going up to $4.25 a gallon. There was no real reason gas was so expensive, other than they wanted to see how much they could charge before it ruined the economy. And now we see what that number is. It's about $4 a gallon.

 

[Navy1960]

Okay folks here's the deal, I have said this many times, to blame the Union as the sole reason for the demise of the Big 3 is not to look at all the factors associated with the demise of the big three and there are many. It is very short sighted to simply say, the Union is the reason why they are failing as much as it is to say the Union has no fault at all. In the summer of 2008 Toyota which makes the Tundra that competes with the Ford F-150 and GM, GMC, and Dodge Ram large pickups announced the slow down of it's plant in San Antonio, Tx. that has been in operation only 2 years. One month later the plant was closed down for a period of 90 days as the inventory of large trucks in Toyota's chain was too high to support it's sales. The plant resumed production last month. Nissan this past summer announced it would cease production on it's large pickup due to lack of sales and too much inventory, as a matter of fact if you purchased a large Nissan pickup at some dealers they would GIVE you a Altima. Honda recently announced the slow down in production and lay-off of several workers in it's US large truck plants. So as one can see, you CANNOT take the economic situation off the table as a factor when you consider the situation at the Big 3. When you take that into consideration along with all those associated costs which are just ONE factor, then you have your answer as to how they end up in front of congress begging for money.

 

[sealybobo]

Okay folks here's the deal, I have said this many times, to blame the Union as the sole reason for the demise of the Big 3 is not to look at all the factors associated with the demise of the big three and there are many. It is very short sighted to simply say, the Union is the reason why they are failing as much as it is to say the Union has no fault at all. In the summer of 2008 Toyota which makes the Tundra that competes with the Ford F-150 and GM, GMC, and Dodge Ram large pickups announced the slow down of it's plant in San Antonio, Tx. that has been in operation only 2 years. One month later the plant was closed down for a period of 90 days as the inventory of large trucks in Toyota's chain was too high to support it's sales. The plant resumed production last month. Nissan this past summer announced it would cease production on it's large pickup due to lack of sales and too much inventory, as a matter of fact if you purchased a large Nissan pickup at some dealers they would GIVE you a Altima. Honda recently announced the slow down in production and lay-off of several workers in it's US large truck plants. So as one can see, you CANNOT take the economic situation off the table as a factor when you consider the situation at the Big 3. When you take that into consideration along with all those associated costs which are just ONE factor, then you have your answer as to how they end up in front of congress begging for money.

More great news. No link because my buddy emailed it to me:

Michigan's unemployment rate will balloon to 10.5 percent by the end of 2009 and will remain in the double digits through 2010, according to a University of Michigan economic forecast released this morning.

The state is projected to lose about 108,000 jobs in 2009 after losing more than 81,000 jobs in 2009. Michigan is expected to lose another 24,000 jobs in 2010.



U-M economists George Fulton and Joan Crary released the results of their forecast this morning at the 54th annual Economic Outlook Conference at Rackham Auditorium in Ann Arbor.



"It's difficult to imagine how events could be more unsettling in Michigan at present," the economists wrote.



The results are based on an expectation that the federal government will approve "some form of a rescue package" for the domestic automotive industry, either this year or in early 2009, Fulton and Crary wrote. They said they had a "high degree of confidence" a rescue package was inevitable.



Michigan's unemployment rate in October was 9.3 percent, the state announced this week. Fulton and Crary expect that rate to tick up to 9.5 percent by the end of the year. They expect the state to continue to lose jobs overall through 2010.



Still, they suggested "we may see modest job gains in 2011" as the automotive industry picks up and the housing market crisis subsides a bit.

 

[Navy1960]

Great post. Makes sense.

I only ask that you pay the retirees what they were promised. No renigging. If that means the CEO and his VP buddies have to work for less until all those retirees die, then so be it. Do you even realize how many retirees die a few years after they retire of cancer or heart attacks?

If we let them renig on the pensions, then the government will know they can renig on the social security too just by telling us they can't afford it.

This is another example of "THE MAN" wants to see how far he can go. Just like they did with gas going up to $4.25 a gallon. There was no real reason gas was so expensive, other than they wanted to see how much they could charge before it ruined the economy. And now we see what that number is. It's about $4 a gallon.

You know, I think that if the big 3 survive that the pensions they entered into with those retiree's need to be honored. While it is a cost they have to deal with, perhaps a good solution would be to implement job salary deltas across the entire wage scale at these companies. For example, if you are a line worker your starting salary is X , if your a CEO your salary is Y and you get a raise based on performance, now theres a concept , a raise baised on how well you do your job and not one based on just being there! There are many practical solutions to this issue sealy that the car companies can employ that will IMHO cause an explosion in that industry in employment. It only takes the courage to do it and a change in the deep and I do mean deep mind set of everyone in that industry.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I totally disagree regarding their labor costs making their business model unsupportable....

Toyota, paid their workers MORE with their bonuses, than the UAE workers in 2006/7....I posted an article on this the other day...

THIS MEANS that it is purely their business model in regards to product, that is at fault.....

I am not saying they DO NOT get paid too much for what their company is producing, but what i am saying is that if toyota could pay their employees $30 bucks an hour verses the UAW's $27 bucks an hour with their bonuses, and Toyota is NOT being strapped by having to pay these salaries, then this means THAT with the RIGHT PRODUCT, that SELLS at a good turn over rate and gross margin, employee high hourly rates can be supported, while still being profitable.

"Sales heals all troubles" when it comes to retail....even if at a lower gross margin, if the sales increase is big enough!

sales support the proration of employee costs....

sales supports the proration of all overhead costs... etc.

And the only way to increase sales is to have product that customers want to buy...

(Though there is another old saying that there NEVER is a bad product, but ONLY the WRONG retail price) So if something isn't selling, it is not necessarily because it is wrong, but because you have not priced it agressively enough...not priced it at the price that the product would ''sell it'' to the consumer.

Basically, if the Big three were hell on wheels and their product was selling and on fire... they could support even HIGHER salaries and compensation costs than what they are held to today.

BUT, their product is not up to par yet....they don't have at the right price, what customers want, thus the salaries for their employees negotiated in one of their "up" periods are extremely high for what they are selling "today".....

So, one of my solutions to this would be to set their salaries more on a commission or bonus structure....so that in slow times they get paid less and in booming times where they produce more....they get paid more.

care

It's not just the hourly wage. It's the total cost of labor.

A Tale of Two Auto Plants - WSJ.com

In Arlington, GM pays union-scale wages of $26.50 to $30.50 an hour to its 2,800 hourly workers there. On average, GM pays $81.18 an hour in wages and benefits to U.S. hourly workers, including pension and retiree medical costs. At that rate, labor costs per vehicle at Arlington are about $1,800, based on the Harbour Consulting estimate of labor hours per vehicle.


In San Antonio, Toyota will use non-union labor and will start its 1,600 hourly workers at $15.50 to $20.33 per hour, which will grow after three years to $21 to $25. Harbour Consulting President Ron Harbour estimates Toyota's total hourly U.S. labor costs, with benefits, at about $35 an hour -- less than half of GM's rates

Granted, this is an old article but it is still relevant.

One way to reduce retirement costs is to switch from defined benefit plans like old style pensions to defined contribution plans like 401Ks. Even with a generous company match the latter is much less expensive to support. But don't expect the UAW to go for that.

I'm all for piece work maybe even with a guaranteed base salary. Get paid a base and get paid more for what you produce over the required base production. That works for me. But again, don't expect the UAW to go for that either.

 

[sealybobo]

You know, I think that if the big 3 survive that the pensions they entered into with those retiree's need to be honored. While it is a cost they have to deal with, perhaps a good solution would be to implement job salary deltas across the entire wage scale at these companies. For example, if you are a line worker your starting salary is X , if your a CEO your salary is Y and you get a raise based on performance, now theres a concept , a raise baised on how well you do your job and not one based on just being there! There are many practical solutions to this issue sealy that the car companies can employ that will IMHO cause an explosion in that industry in employment. It only takes the courage to do it and a change in the deep and I do mean deep mind set of everyone in that industry.

Very good points and I agree.

I can't wait for the economy to get better. I want to see what companies, both union and non union, do with their profits once they start making profits again. Will they give their worker bee's a raise to keep up with inflation or will their CEO's just keep it all for themselves?

I think they'll keep wages low but they'll hire more employees. So they'll say, "look, we're employing lots of people", but how much are each of those people making?

Is it better to have 1000 people working and making $50k each or is it better to have 750 people making $75K each?

 

[Navy1960]

Very good points and I agree.

I can't wait for the economy to get better. I want to see what companies, both union and non union, do with their profits once they start making profits again. Will they give their worker bee's a raise to keep up with inflation or will their CEO's just keep it all for themselves?

I think they'll keep wages low but they'll hire more employees. So they'll say, "look, we're employing lots of people", but how much are each of those people making?

Is it better to have 1000 people working and making $50k each or is it better to have 750 people making $75K each?

I bet if you asked the 250K that were unemployed in that last part you would have a pretty clear answer on that question. While it's important that wages not be kept so low that people are simply working to get bye, it also also important that the emoployee's have some sort of stake in the long term health of the company in which they work. Do you know I have long thought that the best people to determine the destiny of a company are the people that work there and as such I have always felt that they should have some voice in ownership be it given stock in the company as the years go bye in order to secure a vote for board members, as I said earlier there are many things people can do to insure the health of a company all it takes is a little vision and alittle guts to do it.

 

[sealybobo]

I heard something very interesting last night on liberal talk radio. Randi Rhodes said that the Big 3 sent a memo to her asking for liberal talk radio's help. Between 2000-2007, the auto companies wouldn't advertise on liberal talk radio. Their focus was big suv's, so they advertised on Rush and Hannity and O'Reilly, because those guys would argue that global warming is not man made. The Big 3 also were against CAFE standards, etc.

So it is funny now that the Big 3 are asking for liberal talk radio's help. NOW, because Rush, Hannity and O'Reilly are all advocating that the Big 3 go Chapter 11.

HA!!! That's what happens when you do business with the devil.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I think Ron Paul even admits it is a problem that we sent all our manufacturing overseas. And when the countries that Toyota and Honda come from won't let us in, I think that's a problem too. Your dream of total free trade will never come true. Get over it. You live in a fantasy world. And many people would suffer in your every man for himself universe. That's what America was like before Social security.

Every country in the world has some sort of protectionalism. Just like America has some socialism in our process. I am not going to try to convince you I'm right about this because we already said enough on November 4th. The stuff you say is what Bush said in 2000 when he convinced us that we should outsource everything.

And yes it is all the GOP's fault. Which party is for the Corporations mostly? The Republicans. Which party turned it's back on the middle class? The Republicans. Why do you think Ohio went Blue? Because the GOP and Corporations want cheap labor overseas. Not only did the GOP allow them to go overseas, they gave them loopholes to dodge paying taxes. And I've already provided enough links to prove that to you, but you seem to just ignore them.

What you do for a living helps me understand if you are a fool or a greedy bastard. I talked to some guy yesterday who makes just over $100K. Now I know he's not seeing things from a middle class perspective. He doesn't understand how this economy has affected people that make $30k-$70k. So without knowing what you do, I can't explain to you if your job is next on the chopping block.

Don't like your taxes raised? How much has your 401k lost? Now factor in that every dollar is now only worth 70 cents because the GOP doubled the debt in 8 years. Then consider inflation. Dude, you lost sooo much under Bushanomics and you know it. Iraq helped break us too, but the $750 billion was the icing on the cake. And it's a fact that Iraq was a war for profit. Did we profit? No, Oil companies, blackwater and haloburton did.

And you don't think it's all tied together?

Say, why don't we have the banks loan the Big 3 the money? Isn't that what we loaned the banks the $750K for? To loan out money and get the process going?

This crisis is all in the bankers heads. They are a bunch of whiners. Did you yell this loud about the bank bailout? No, because that helped rich bankers. The Big 3 loan would help workers, and you are anti labor. Again, what do you do? I can prove you are an arrogant ignorant person if you will only tell me.

No, The Daily Show is all about satire:

In satire, human or individual vices, follies, abuses, or shortcomings are held up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, or other methods, ideally with the intent to bring about improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, the purpose of satire is not primarily humour in itself so much as an attack on something of which the author strongly disapproves, using the weapon of wit.

I don't have the time or desire to explain every point, but you happen to be wrong on everything. You have good intentions but you just wrong. But to explain why would take forever, and you'd just argue anyways. I'm not going to care for another 1.5 years. We can discuss what can and can't be done then, because I've been hearing the shit you say for 8 years now. Clearly you were not right about anything.

The fact that you dare argue the economy or war or healthcare or conservation/pollution/global warming at this point is laughable. You should just watch for a year or two and give the new party/administration a chance to show you just how wrong you are.

But after bashing Clinton for those 8 great years, I doubt anything will be good enough for people like you. You'll still want trade to be FREER. And it will never be. Nor should it. It will be less free. It will be more regulated. You can call it protectionalism or socialism or whatever you want, but it is coming.

I don't want or need your opinion on my job, mind your own business and focus on the topic. There's absolutely no insight you could give me, because you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

So you're saying that I supported the bailout of the banks, despite the fact that I very clearly came out against bailing out the banks. I do not support a bailout of anyone at anytime. It is never a good idea and only hurts the economy more in the long run. You also, once again, falsely accuse me of supporting the war in Iraq, despite the fact that I've told you in this thread I have never supported the war and would support an immediate and complete troop withdrawal from the country. Facts are stubborn things, and you appear to have none of them on your side.

Inflation is a problem, but it comes from the Federal Reserve. Is Obama going to abolish the Federal Reserve? Of course not. He's just going to use them for different projects than Bush would have. The Federal Reserve is at the heart of this financial crisis, not Republicans, and the Democrats aren't going to do a thing about it.

Here are some of the consequences of tariffs, that you and editec seem to think would be such a great idea.

First and foremost, tariffs cause the consumers to have to pay more. If they have to pay more in one area then that means they have less money to pay for something else, which hurts that industry. Tariffs also hurt other industries that have to pay more for the product from the protected industry.

In the absence of competition innovation is unnecessary, because you know that the consumers will buy your product regardless. This means that the consumers are left paying more for an inferior product.

Do you think other nations will sit back and let us impose tariffs on their products? Absolutely not. They're going to retaliate with tariffs of their own, which will hurt American companies that export their products to other nations.

Now for a history lesson. The Confederate States originally seceded from the union in 1860 because of high tariffs that benefitted the industrial northern states at the expense of the agricultural southern states. In the Confederate Constitution tariffs were prohibited. Abraham Lincoln had to invade the south. If he allowed the Confederates to remain a nation then it would have been the end of his protectionist "American System," because the free trade south would have had much more trade than the northern states. Lincoln would have had to remove all the tariffs he so loved just to compete with the Confederates. So rather than do that, he decided to illegally invade the south and force them back into the union.

Protectionism always benefits a small portion of the country, at the expense of the rest. In no way shape or form is that helpful to our economy.

 

[sealybobo]

IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won’t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.

Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course — the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.

I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George Romney, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support — banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around — and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit’s automakers.

Opinion | Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

See loser, we didn't take your advice and Michigan is back and better than ever.
Michigan's unemployment rate now under 4 percent

Thanks Obama

 

[sealybobo]

I totally disagree regarding their labor costs making their business model unsupportable....

Toyota, paid their workers MORE with their bonuses, than the UAE workers in 2006/7....I posted an article on this the other day...

THIS MEANS that it is purely their business model in regards to product, that is at fault.....

I am not saying they DO NOT get paid too much for what their company is producing, but what i am saying is that if toyota could pay their employees $30 bucks an hour verses the UAW's $27 bucks an hour with their bonuses, and Toyota is NOT being strapped by having to pay these salaries, then this means THAT with the RIGHT PRODUCT, that SELLS at a good turn over rate and gross margin, employee high hourly rates can be supported, while still being profitable.

"Sales heals all troubles" when it comes to retail....even if at a lower gross margin, if the sales increase is big enough!

sales support the proration of employee costs....

sales supports the proration of all overhead costs... etc.

And the only way to increase sales is to have product that customers want to buy...

(Though there is another old saying that there NEVER is a bad product, but ONLY the WRONG retail price) So if something isn't selling, it is not necessarily because it is wrong, but because you have not priced it agressively enough...not priced it at the price that the product would ''sell it'' to the consumer.

Basically, if the Big three were hell on wheels and their product was selling and on fire... they could support even HIGHER salaries and compensation costs than what they are held to today.

BUT, their product is not up to par yet....they don't have at the right price, what customers want, thus the salaries for their employees negotiated in one of their "up" periods are extremely high for what they are selling "today".....

So, one of my solutions to this would be to set their salaries more on a commission or bonus structure....so that in slow times they get paid less and in booming times where they produce more....they get paid more.

care

It's not just the hourly wage. It's the total cost of labor.

A Tale of Two Auto Plants - WSJ.com

In Arlington, GM pays union-scale wages of $26.50 to $30.50 an hour to its 2,800 hourly workers there. On average, GM pays $81.18 an hour in wages and benefits to U.S. hourly workers, including pension and retiree medical costs. At that rate, labor costs per vehicle at Arlington are about $1,800, based on the Harbour Consulting estimate of labor hours per vehicle.


In San Antonio, Toyota will use non-union labor and will start its 1,600 hourly workers at $15.50 to $20.33 per hour, which will grow after three years to $21 to $25. Harbour Consulting President Ron Harbour estimates Toyota's total hourly U.S. labor costs, with benefits, at about $35 an hour -- less than half of GM's rates

Granted, this is an old article but it is still relevant.

One way to reduce retirement costs is to switch from defined benefit plans like old style pensions to defined contribution plans like 401Ks. Even with a generous company match the latter is much less expensive to support. But don't expect the UAW to go for that.

I'm all for piece work maybe even with a guaranteed base salary. Get paid a base and get paid more for what you produce over the required base production. That works for me. But again, don't expect the UAW to go for that either.

Here is what Republicans basically did. They fucked the middle class by sending all those high paying union jobs overseas. Lets say those jobs paid $35 hr. You bitches said that wasn't sustainable, but you never fucking mention when the executives pay themselves the same exact amount if not more than what we are taking about with the workers. Do you notice that? You never cry that the CEO pay is making the car unaffordable. You only cry about the workers. Now you say you are pro workers?

Ok, so here is what Republicans did basically. So they sent $35 hr jobs overseas and everyone who lost their job went to Walmart and got a $10 hr. job. Trump is bringing back $15 hr manufacturing jobs. So he's not exactly making America great again. He's just making it better than before Bushanomics/NAFTA fucked us. The idea is with illegals gone companies will eventually have to pay more than $15 to keep workers. I hope it works. I doubt it but since you won the election lets try it your way.