Let's unpack some of the right wing's delusion and dishonesty. Is universal healthcare socialism?

[Brain357]

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You don’t understand markets?

PIss off.

Markets don’t work for healthcare. Once you figure that out you will see universal is only real option.

Listen, asswipe, I ask you above for clarification on what you mean by "work for healthcare" and you declined to answer, choosing instead to insult me. If want to continue the conversation, start with answering those questions. Until you do, the statement you keep chanting, "Markets don't work for healthcare", has no meaning.

Again:

Healthcare costs just go up, markets have no downward pressure on healthcare. The guy in an ambulance can’t shop a cheaper price so they just charge more and more...

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You are really slow. If there is no downward pressure on pricing, then markets aren’t working. It’s more of a monopoly situation and prices just increase. Competition is important in markets. Again the guy in an ambulance isn’t shopping around. What don’t you get?

There's no downward pressure because no one is paying for their own health care. They've been herded, by government, into employer-provided, group health insurance that obliterates all normal market dynamics - actually turns them upside down so that health care consumers have incentive to choose the more expensive option at every opportunity.

But you're still ignoring my question. Is it that you don't understand it? Or that you just don't want to talk about it? What are you so afraid of? If you're going to claim that markets don't "work" for health care, you need to say what that means. What would it mean for a market to "work"? You seem to be assuming that the purpose of a market is provide everyone with their needs. You don't seem to want to admit that though. Why are you such a chickenshit about it? Can't you just have an honest conversation without all the evasion?

I’ve explained it several times. The number of emergency room patients in a day is dependent on the number of sudden illnesses and accidents. What they charge has no effect. So the price goes up and up. Markets don’t work for healthcare.

There's no downward pressure because no one is paying for their own health care. They've been herded, by government, into employer-provided, group health insurance that obliterates all normal market dynamics - actually turns them upside down so that health care consumers have incentive to choose the more expensive option at every opportunity. But just ignore this and keep chanting. You're getting good at it.

Anyway, since you won't answer my question, I'll assume that you think the purpose of a market is to provide everyone with what they need, and that's where we disagree. A free market doesn't have a purpose, other than freedom. It allows people to pursue their own goals by trading and collaborating with others. It's really freedom that you're railing against. You want things to be controlled by the government. Why?

Being sick destroys all market dynamics. You need to figure that out.

I've already figured that out. I've been sick, without insurance. And I looked for medical service that I could afford. I avoided expensive ambulance service when I could. I negotiated for lower rates and asked about cheaper alternatives. Later, when I had insurance, I didn't give a shit about any of that. I went to the doctor that was close by and had the nicest office. I never asked about prices.

Anyway, none of your whinging about that has anything to do with whether markets "work" or not. Since you haven't specified what it means for a market to "work" there's no way to tell what the fuck you mean. But evasion seems to be your go to - so maybe that's intentional.

If you had figured that out you would know universal is the only way. Only the cheap stuff will ever be shopped. Emergency and life saving care breaks the market.

 

[dblack]

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You don’t understand markets?

PIss off.

Markets don’t work for healthcare. Once you figure that out you will see universal is only real option.

Listen, asswipe, I ask you above for clarification on what you mean by "work for healthcare" and you declined to answer, choosing instead to insult me. If want to continue the conversation, start with answering those questions. Until you do, the statement you keep chanting, "Markets don't work for healthcare", has no meaning.

Again:

Healthcare costs just go up, markets have no downward pressure on healthcare. The guy in an ambulance can’t shop a cheaper price so they just charge more and more...

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You are really slow. If there is no downward pressure on pricing, then markets aren’t working. It’s more of a monopoly situation and prices just increase. Competition is important in markets. Again the guy in an ambulance isn’t shopping around. What don’t you get?

There's no downward pressure because no one is paying for their own health care. They've been herded, by government, into employer-provided, group health insurance that obliterates all normal market dynamics - actually turns them upside down so that health care consumers have incentive to choose the more expensive option at every opportunity.

But you're still ignoring my question. Is it that you don't understand it? Or that you just don't want to talk about it? What are you so afraid of? If you're going to claim that markets don't "work" for health care, you need to say what that means. What would it mean for a market to "work"? You seem to be assuming that the purpose of a market is provide everyone with their needs. You don't seem to want to admit that though. Why are you such a chickenshit about it? Can't you just have an honest conversation without all the evasion?

I’ve explained it several times. The number of emergency room patients in a day is dependent on the number of sudden illnesses and accidents. What they charge has no effect. So the price goes up and up. Markets don’t work for healthcare.

There's no downward pressure because no one is paying for their own health care. They've been herded, by government, into employer-provided, group health insurance that obliterates all normal market dynamics - actually turns them upside down so that health care consumers have incentive to choose the more expensive option at every opportunity. But just ignore this and keep chanting. You're getting good at it.

Anyway, since you won't answer my question, I'll assume that you think the purpose of a market is to provide everyone with what they need, and that's where we disagree. A free market doesn't have a purpose, other than freedom. It allows people to pursue their own goals by trading and collaborating with others. It's really freedom that you're railing against. You want things to be controlled by the government. Why?

Being sick destroys all market dynamics. You need to figure that out.

I've already figured that out. I've been sick, without insurance. And I looked for medical service that I could afford. I avoided expensive ambulance service when I could. I negotiated for lower rates and asked about cheaper alternatives. Later, when I had insurance, I didn't give a shit about any of that. I went to the doctor that was close by and had the nicest office. I never asked about prices.

Anyway, none of your whinging about that has anything to do with whether markets "work" or not. Since you haven't specified what it means for a market to "work" there's no way to tell what the fuck you mean. But evasion seems to be your go to - so maybe that's intentional.

If you had figured that out you would know universal is the only way.

The only way to what?

Bottom line, I don't want Donald Trump, or any other unscrupulous politician, in charge of my health care.

 

[danielpalos]

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You don’t understand markets?

PIss off.

Markets don’t work for healthcare. Once you figure that out you will see universal is only real option.

Listen, asswipe, I ask you above for clarification on what you mean by "work for healthcare" and you declined to answer, choosing instead to insult me. If want to continue the conversation, start with answering those questions. Until you do, the statement you keep chanting, "Markets don't work for healthcare", has no meaning.

Again:

Healthcare costs just go up, markets have no downward pressure on healthcare. The guy in an ambulance can’t shop a cheaper price so they just charge more and more...

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You are really slow. If there is no downward pressure on pricing, then markets aren’t working. It’s more of a monopoly situation and prices just increase. Competition is important in markets. Again the guy in an ambulance isn’t shopping around. What don’t you get?

There's no downward pressure because no one is paying for their own health care. They've been herded, by government, into employer-provided, group health insurance that obliterates all normal market dynamics - actually turns them upside down so that health care consumers have incentive to choose the more expensive option at every opportunity.

But you're still ignoring my question. Is it that you don't understand it? Or that you just don't want to talk about it? What are you so afraid of? If you're going to claim that markets don't "work" for health care, you need to say what that means. What would it mean for a market to "work"? You seem to be assuming that the purpose of a market is provide everyone with their needs. You don't seem to want to admit that though. Why are you such a chickenshit about it? Can't you just have an honest conversation without all the evasion?

I’ve explained it several times. The number of emergency room patients in a day is dependent on the number of sudden illnesses and accidents. What they charge has no effect. So the price goes up and up. Markets don’t work for healthcare.

There's no downward pressure because no one is paying for their own health care. They've been herded, by government, into employer-provided, group health insurance that obliterates all normal market dynamics - actually turns them upside down so that health care consumers have incentive to choose the more expensive option at every opportunity. But just ignore this and keep chanting. You're getting good at it.

Anyway, since you won't answer my question, I'll assume that you think the purpose of a market is to provide everyone with what they need, and that's where we disagree. A free market doesn't have a purpose, other than freedom. It allows people to pursue their own goals by trading and collaborating with others. It's really freedom that you're railing against. You want things to be controlled by the government. Why?

Being sick destroys all market dynamics. You need to figure that out.

I've already figured that out. I've been sick, without insurance. And I looked for medical service that I could afford. I avoided expensive ambulance service when I could. I negotiated for lower rates and asked about cheaper alternatives. Later, when I had insurance, I didn't give a shit about any of that. I went to the doctor that was close by and had the nicest office. I never asked about prices.

Anyway, none of your whinging about that has anything to do with whether markets "work" or not. Since you haven't specified what it means for a market to "work" there's no way to tell what the fuck you mean. But evasion seems to be your go to - so maybe that's intentional.

If you had figured that out you would know universal is the only way. Only the cheap stuff will ever be shopped. Emergency and life saving care breaks the market.

Only because of inefficient market participation by the Poor. With more full employment of capital by solving simple poverty individuals rates in any given market can be lower and would be more market friendly since more people would be participating in that market.

A simple example is a market where the price of a good is one hundred dollars with only one participant but could be fifty dollars with two participants, etc; if the seller only needs to generate one hundred dollars to achieve a profit in that market.

 

[WTH_Progs?]

You'll often see conservatives argue that any social program is socialism and then in the next breath they'll say the Scandinavian countries are capitalist and not socialist when people point to how well they do over there. Well they have universal healthcare and very expansive social safety nets. Are those things socialism or not in your world view? You hypocrites can't have your cake and eat it too. Either the Scandinavian countries are socialist in your view or things like universal healthcare are not actually socialism. There are no Democrats arguing for the government to completely take over the private sector. They want universal healthcare and government funded universities like in the Scandinavian nations. At least get your shit straight and make a consistent argument.

Are you 20?

 

[Leo123]

Markets don’t work for healthcare. Once you figure that out you will see universal is only real option.

If markets did not work for healthcare, people from other countries would not be coming here for the best healthcare. Competition, if not over regulated, is always best, once you figure that out you will see universal healthcare is the least preferred option.

 

[Concerned American]

Geez, you ought to take that mind reading thing on the road. You might not feel the need to be a parasite anymore. How do YOU know what THEY think. SMH

It's really not hard to find information like that if you know how to look for it.

By which I can only assume you mean reading leftist blogs and opinion pieces telling you all about what you should believe about those nasty right-wingers you've never spoken to.

Equal protection of the law for unemployment compensation in our at-will employment States is a market friendly backup plan.

Read it moron--you're addressing one minuscule piece of the legislation and not even a fraction of what is going to the other pork. Get rid of the BS pork and non covid related pork and there is a better chance of it passing. Personally, though, I figure you should just get off of your butt and earn some money instead of waiting on the dole, parasite.

 

[justinacolmena]

Either the Scandinavian countries are socialist in your view or things like universal healthcare are not actually socialism.

There are working girls on the streets and abortion-on-demand is available for patrons of prostitutes and dead-beat dads, as well as routine hysterectomies and other measures for unwilling or uncooperative women.

 

[justinacolmena]

If markets did not work for healthcare, people from other countries would not be coming here for the best healthcare. Competition, if not over regulated, is always best, once you figure that out you will see universal healthcare is the least preferred option.

Some things money just can't buy.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 9:12 - King James Version

But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

www.biblegateway.com

If you have all your limbs, teeth, both eyes, and skin, why in would do want “universal healthcare” offered by butchers and drug dealers?
Unless you’re beside yourself insane out of your mind and you want to be tortured to death in a mental hospital or psychiatric ward?

 

[Staidhup]

Anything that is free, funded by taxes levied on those that work for the benefit of those that do not or earn less than the threshold required to pay taxes coupled with the government’s control of the healthcare and provider market is socialism. The restriction of ones freedom to choose is socialism.

 

[danielpalos]

Geez, you ought to take that mind reading thing on the road. You might not feel the need to be a parasite anymore. How do YOU know what THEY think. SMH

It's really not hard to find information like that if you know how to look for it.

By which I can only assume you mean reading leftist blogs and opinion pieces telling you all about what you should believe about those nasty right-wingers you've never spoken to.

Equal protection of the law for unemployment compensation in our at-will employment States is a market friendly backup plan.

Read it moron--you're addressing one minuscule piece of the legislation and not even a fraction of what is going to the other pork. Get rid of the BS pork and non covid related pork and there is a better chance of it passing. Personally, though, I figure you should just get off of your butt and earn some money instead of waiting on the dole, parasite.

In the US, socialism is about the equality of equal protection of the laws. Bigot.

 

[Concerned American]

Geez, you ought to take that mind reading thing on the road. You might not feel the need to be a parasite anymore. How do YOU know what THEY think. SMH

It's really not hard to find information like that if you know how to look for it.

By which I can only assume you mean reading leftist blogs and opinion pieces telling you all about what you should believe about those nasty right-wingers you've never spoken to.

Equal protection of the law for unemployment compensation in our at-will employment States is a market friendly backup plan.

Read it moron--you're addressing one minuscule piece of the legislation and not even a fraction of what is going to the other pork. Get rid of the BS pork and non covid related pork and there is a better chance of it passing. Personally, though, I figure you should just get off of your butt and earn some money instead of waiting on the dole, parasite.

In the US, socialism is about the equality of equal protection of the laws. Bigot.

You are a moron that can't put a sentence together.

 

[Rigby5]

Something wrong with anyone who thinks we all shouldn’t have healthcare. Our current system is a super expensive mess.

there's also something wrong with the government forcing people to pay for things they don't need want and will never use

Like all the increased military spending?

yup.

but then again there really is no correlation between health care and the military.

Now if everyone was mandated to buy a rifle that would be a better comparison

We all need healthcare at some point.

but we don't all need the same health care.

I don't need drug counseling but I am forced to pay for it.

I don't need pediatric or obstetric health care because I don't have kids and I'm not a woman but I have to pay for it.

And if we have a universal healthcare system it is cheaper for all.

irrelevant

And I don't think that's true at all.

Our current system is by far the most expensive. That’s a well known fact,

tough too say when government health care costs are nearly impossible to track

I would say it is the opposite, in that government health care costs are very trivial to track, like with Medicare, VA hospitals, etc., and they are tiny compared to what you pay with private health care systems like private health insurance paying private hospitals for treatment the patient has already prepaid for and has no say then at all over quality or cost.
There can be nothing worse than prepaying through insurance premiums.
Worst possible system.

 

[Rigby5]

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You don’t understand markets?

PIss off.

Markets don’t work for healthcare. Once you figure that out you will see universal is only real option.

Listen, asswipe, I ask you above for clarification on what you mean by "work for healthcare" and you declined to answer, choosing instead to insult me. If want to continue the conversation, start with answering those questions. Until you do, the statement you keep chanting, "Markets don't work for healthcare", has no meaning.

It seems obvious to me.
With something like food, you can survive equally well on cheap or expensive food.
You know how much food costs and you prepare accordingly.
But health care is entirely and totally different.
You can't choose lower health care or else you die, and you don't know ahead of time if you will need any heath care or not, so you can't prepare for it.
In fact, you have no idea what it should cost, so you totally have to trust the provider.
So then all the things that work for a market system, can not possibly work for health care.

The poor and wealthy alike need the exact same health care, and it is only needed when there is an emergency you can not save up for ahead of time, so it has to be paid by the society as a whole. It can't be run on a for profit system.

 

[Brain357]

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You don’t understand markets?

PIss off.

Markets don’t work for healthcare. Once you figure that out you will see universal is only real option.

Listen, asswipe, I ask you above for clarification on what you mean by "work for healthcare" and you declined to answer, choosing instead to insult me. If want to continue the conversation, start with answering those questions. Until you do, the statement you keep chanting, "Markets don't work for healthcare", has no meaning.

Again:

Healthcare costs just go up, markets have no downward pressure on healthcare. The guy in an ambulance can’t shop a cheaper price so they just charge more and more...

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You are really slow. If there is no downward pressure on pricing, then markets aren’t working. It’s more of a monopoly situation and prices just increase. Competition is important in markets. Again the guy in an ambulance isn’t shopping around. What don’t you get?

There's no downward pressure because no one is paying for their own health care. They've been herded, by government, into employer-provided, group health insurance that obliterates all normal market dynamics - actually turns them upside down so that health care consumers have incentive to choose the more expensive option at every opportunity.

But you're still ignoring my question. Is it that you don't understand it? Or that you just don't want to talk about it? What are you so afraid of? If you're going to claim that markets don't "work" for health care, you need to say what that means. What would it mean for a market to "work"? You seem to be assuming that the purpose of a market is provide everyone with their needs. You don't seem to want to admit that though. Why are you such a chickenshit about it? Can't you just have an honest conversation without all the evasion?

I’ve explained it several times. The number of emergency room patients in a day is dependent on the number of sudden illnesses and accidents. What they charge has no effect. So the price goes up and up. Markets don’t work for healthcare.

There's no downward pressure because no one is paying for their own health care. They've been herded, by government, into employer-provided, group health insurance that obliterates all normal market dynamics - actually turns them upside down so that health care consumers have incentive to choose the more expensive option at every opportunity. But just ignore this and keep chanting. You're getting good at it.

Anyway, since you won't answer my question, I'll assume that you think the purpose of a market is to provide everyone with what they need, and that's where we disagree. A free market doesn't have a purpose, other than freedom. It allows people to pursue their own goals by trading and collaborating with others. It's really freedom that you're railing against. You want things to be controlled by the government. Why?

Being sick destroys all market dynamics. You need to figure that out.

I've already figured that out. I've been sick, without insurance. And I looked for medical service that I could afford. I avoided expensive ambulance service when I could. I negotiated for lower rates and asked about cheaper alternatives. Later, when I had insurance, I didn't give a shit about any of that. I went to the doctor that was close by and had the nicest office. I never asked about prices.

Anyway, none of your whinging about that has anything to do with whether markets "work" or not. Since you haven't specified what it means for a market to "work" there's no way to tell what the fuck you mean. But evasion seems to be your go to - so maybe that's intentional.

If you had figured that out you would know universal is the only way.

The only way to what?

Bottom line, I don't want Donald Trump, or any other unscrupulous politician, in charge of my health care.

That's nice, but leaving it in the hands of greedy companies is quickly making it unaffordable. Universal is the only way to make it affordable and insure everyone has access to healthcare. You have no valid arguments against this.

 

[Rigby5]

They donate to the charitable causes they believe in--that is a social safety net.

Private charity only covers multitudes of sins not simple poverty or we would not need Any social programs.

Social programs only encourage parasites. If you don't want to live in poverty, get off of your lazy backside and earn a better life. I bet your mommy still makes your bed for you.

About the only people who can get by on social programs are single mothers on ADC.
There is very little welfare in the US.
Unemployment conpensation is your own money being paid back to you.

 

[Brain357]

Markets don’t work for healthcare. Once you figure that out you will see universal is only real option.

If markets did not work for healthcare, people from other countries would not be coming here for the best healthcare. Competition, if not over regulated, is always best, once you figure that out you will see universal healthcare is the least preferred option.

The only people who come here are going to be stupidly rich. We have unaffordable healthcare. If markets worked the cost wouldn't constantly be soaring up.

 

[Brain357]

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You don’t understand markets?

PIss off.

Markets don’t work for healthcare. Once you figure that out you will see universal is only real option.

Listen, asswipe, I ask you above for clarification on what you mean by "work for healthcare" and you declined to answer, choosing instead to insult me. If want to continue the conversation, start with answering those questions. Until you do, the statement you keep chanting, "Markets don't work for healthcare", has no meaning.

Again:

Healthcare costs just go up, markets have no downward pressure on healthcare. The guy in an ambulance can’t shop a cheaper price so they just charge more and more...

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You are really slow. If there is no downward pressure on pricing, then markets aren’t working. It’s more of a monopoly situation and prices just increase. Competition is important in markets. Again the guy in an ambulance isn’t shopping around. What don’t you get?

There's no downward pressure because no one is paying for their own health care. They've been herded, by government, into employer-provided, group health insurance that obliterates all normal market dynamics - actually turns them upside down so that health care consumers have incentive to choose the more expensive option at every opportunity.

But you're still ignoring my question. Is it that you don't understand it? Or that you just don't want to talk about it? What are you so afraid of? If you're going to claim that markets don't "work" for health care, you need to say what that means. What would it mean for a market to "work"? You seem to be assuming that the purpose of a market is provide everyone with their needs. You don't seem to want to admit that though. Why are you such a chickenshit about it? Can't you just have an honest conversation without all the evasion?

I’ve explained it several times. The number of emergency room patients in a day is dependent on the number of sudden illnesses and accidents. What they charge has no effect. So the price goes up and up. Markets don’t work for healthcare.

There's no downward pressure because no one is paying for their own health care. They've been herded, by government, into employer-provided, group health insurance that obliterates all normal market dynamics - actually turns them upside down so that health care consumers have incentive to choose the more expensive option at every opportunity. But just ignore this and keep chanting. You're getting good at it.

Anyway, since you won't answer my question, I'll assume that you think the purpose of a market is to provide everyone with what they need, and that's where we disagree. A free market doesn't have a purpose, other than freedom. It allows people to pursue their own goals by trading and collaborating with others. It's really freedom that you're railing against. You want things to be controlled by the government. Why?

Being sick destroys all market dynamics. You need to figure that out.

I've already figured that out. I've been sick, without insurance. And I looked for medical service that I could afford. I avoided expensive ambulance service when I could. I negotiated for lower rates and asked about cheaper alternatives. Later, when I had insurance, I didn't give a shit about any of that. I went to the doctor that was close by and had the nicest office. I never asked about prices.

Anyway, none of your whinging about that has anything to do with whether markets "work" or not. Since you haven't specified what it means for a market to "work" there's no way to tell what the fuck you mean. But evasion seems to be your go to - so maybe that's intentional.

If you had figured that out you would know universal is the only way. Only the cheap stuff will ever be shopped. Emergency and life saving care breaks the market.

Only because of inefficient market participation by the Poor. With more full employment of capital by solving simple poverty individuals rates in any given market can be lower and would be more market friendly since more people would be participating in that market.

A simple example is a market where the price of a good is one hundred dollars with only one participant but could be fifty dollars with two participants, etc; if the seller only needs to generate one hundred dollars to achieve a profit in that market.

Obamacare greatly increased the number of people with healthcare. The costs continued to increase. It's a monopoly, they increase prices as they please.

 

[Rigby5]

Underneath all the noise is the simple fact that Trump lied and the GOP lied when they said they had a replacement for Obamacare.

All the bitching in the world about "socialism" will not obscure that very real fact.

And that is why we are going to have UHC in our lifetimes.

Thanks a lot, assholes.

Waaah waah waah Obammycare got healthcare welfare for a few at increased cost to the rest of us....just like every other liberal program ever created. It doesnt need a replacement it needs an elimination.

You, along with most people in this thread, are missing g5000's point. He's not a fan of Obamacare, he's not in favor of UHC. He's just (rightfully, my view) blaming Republicans for allowing it to happen. They've done an incredibly bad job of standing up for limited government.

The President had only 4 years not 8, and all of it spent fighting off the wacko attacks on his presidency so not sure what you expected. With another term I am sure he could have rid the country of yet another anti American program like Obammycare.

ACA was passed in 2010. That was ten years ago. Republicans have had all that time to come up with a better way to fix the broken health care market. And frankly, they should have come up with something before it was even passed. They failed. Miserably.

Failed what? If you are talking about the high cost of medicines and hospital service then Obammycare only made that worse. As for anything else people can either choose healthcare for their family or get Iphones and Ipads instead, theeir choice.

Failed to address the fact that health care prices are artificially inflated - inflated beyond the means of the average health care consumer. Something is wrong with this picture.

Markets don’t work in healthcare...

Yes. You mentioned that, once or twice.

That’s what’s wrong with the picture.

Yeah. Thing is, that kind of claim doesn't even make any sense to me. I think that's because I don't look at a free market an institution with specific goals, or an other means to evaluate whether it "works" or not. A free market is just people, freely collaborating, trading goods and services as they see fit. Saying free markets don't work is like saying "freedom doesn't work".

And a sick person is not capable of making good buying decisions. Free markets do work, but not for healthcare.

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You don’t understand markets?

PIss off.

Markets don’t work for healthcare. Once you figure that out you will see universal is only real option.

From what I've seen in other countries, government doesn't work for healthcare either, now what?

Actually from what I have seen on all other countries, public health care seems to work pretty good.
The advantage is that with single payer, the payer have great negotiating power with the providers.
If the providers over charge or under preform, they the government can and will put on pressure to fix it.

With the current 3rd party payer system, the insurance companies want high costs because that make people need to buy insurance even more, in order to gain access to the health care providers the insurance companies have monopolies by over paying them.

 

[Rigby5]

Markets don’t work for healthcare. Once you figure that out you will see universal is only real option.

If markets did not work for healthcare, people from other countries would not be coming here for the best healthcare. Competition, if not over regulated, is always best, once you figure that out you will see universal healthcare is the least preferred option.

Wrong.
The only people coming here for health care are the very few, extremely wealthy.
And a system that over pays and over charges, so that only the very wealthy get adequate health care is not working at all.
Competition means the very poor simply die, and that is the least preferred option.
Competition has never been a good system, and the public transportation system, public schools, etc., prove that public system almost always are best. The only thing good about competition is innovation, which you only want for optional luxuries, like cars.
In general, health care is better in almost all other countries, and the US has the worst health care. You can tell that by our poor infant mortality rate, lower life span, etc.

 

[danielpalos]

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You don’t understand markets?

PIss off.

Markets don’t work for healthcare. Once you figure that out you will see universal is only real option.

Listen, asswipe, I ask you above for clarification on what you mean by "work for healthcare" and you declined to answer, choosing instead to insult me. If want to continue the conversation, start with answering those questions. Until you do, the statement you keep chanting, "Markets don't work for healthcare", has no meaning.

Again:

Healthcare costs just go up, markets have no downward pressure on healthcare. The guy in an ambulance can’t shop a cheaper price so they just charge more and more...

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You are really slow. If there is no downward pressure on pricing, then markets aren’t working. It’s more of a monopoly situation and prices just increase. Competition is important in markets. Again the guy in an ambulance isn’t shopping around. What don’t you get?

There's no downward pressure because no one is paying for their own health care. They've been herded, by government, into employer-provided, group health insurance that obliterates all normal market dynamics - actually turns them upside down so that health care consumers have incentive to choose the more expensive option at every opportunity.

But you're still ignoring my question. Is it that you don't understand it? Or that you just don't want to talk about it? What are you so afraid of? If you're going to claim that markets don't "work" for health care, you need to say what that means. What would it mean for a market to "work"? You seem to be assuming that the purpose of a market is provide everyone with their needs. You don't seem to want to admit that though. Why are you such a chickenshit about it? Can't you just have an honest conversation without all the evasion?

I’ve explained it several times. The number of emergency room patients in a day is dependent on the number of sudden illnesses and accidents. What they charge has no effect. So the price goes up and up. Markets don’t work for healthcare.

There's no downward pressure because no one is paying for their own health care. They've been herded, by government, into employer-provided, group health insurance that obliterates all normal market dynamics - actually turns them upside down so that health care consumers have incentive to choose the more expensive option at every opportunity. But just ignore this and keep chanting. You're getting good at it.

Anyway, since you won't answer my question, I'll assume that you think the purpose of a market is to provide everyone with what they need, and that's where we disagree. A free market doesn't have a purpose, other than freedom. It allows people to pursue their own goals by trading and collaborating with others. It's really freedom that you're railing against. You want things to be controlled by the government. Why?

Being sick destroys all market dynamics. You need to figure that out.

I've already figured that out. I've been sick, without insurance. And I looked for medical service that I could afford. I avoided expensive ambulance service when I could. I negotiated for lower rates and asked about cheaper alternatives. Later, when I had insurance, I didn't give a shit about any of that. I went to the doctor that was close by and had the nicest office. I never asked about prices.

Anyway, none of your whinging about that has anything to do with whether markets "work" or not. Since you haven't specified what it means for a market to "work" there's no way to tell what the fuck you mean. But evasion seems to be your go to - so maybe that's intentional.

If you had figured that out you would know universal is the only way. Only the cheap stuff will ever be shopped. Emergency and life saving care breaks the market.

Only because of inefficient market participation by the Poor. With more full employment of capital by solving simple poverty individuals rates in any given market can be lower and would be more market friendly since more people would be participating in that market.

A simple example is a market where the price of a good is one hundred dollars with only one participant but could be fifty dollars with two participants, etc; if the seller only needs to generate one hundred dollars to achieve a profit in that market.

Obamacare greatly increased the number of people with healthcare. The costs continued to increase. It's a monopoly, they increase prices as they please.

It wasn't as market friendly as it could have been.

While Obamacare promised affordable health insurance for every American, and even penalized those who refused to buy it, the law did nothing to control underlying costs. The very structure of the law which imposed billions of dollars in new, costly regulations also led to higher and higher insurance premiums.--https://www.cms.gov/blog/thank-obamacare-rise-uninsured#:~:text=While%20Obamacare%20promised%20affordable%20health,higher%20and%20higher%20insurance%20premiums.

What I described works in any market, ceteris paribus.