Let's unpack some of the right wing's delusion and dishonesty. Is universal healthcare socialism?

[Brain357]

Markets don't work for health care - MarketWatch

>>> In fact, totally free markets are abysmally bad at delivering health care. That's why every advanced economy, to one degree or another, has given government a large role in providing health care to its citizens.​

>>> We've tried the market approach to health care and the result has always been the same: Poor health and poor people.​

>>> Poverty and disease go together, and the causation goes both ways. Show me a country that keeps the government out of health care and I'll show you a country that spends too much on death and not enough on life.​

>>> I'm not arguing that everything government does is good, or that everything the private sector does is bad. It's clear that government actions can have their own failures that make health care more expensive or less effective. All I'm arguing here is that relying on markets exclusively leaves us poorer and sicker.​

Straight from the spokesman of a Communist Party politburo.

If it's some kind of pill or medication, free markets are amazingly efficient at delivering it. If it's something to be forced on patients against their will, then of course there’s always a market for extortion, forced drugging, and involuntary hospitalization under the explicit blessing and protection of government.

The real healthcare market is precisely in the government intervention to enforce routine mayhem, involuntary vaccination, mass murder, and abortion-on-demand at the pleasure of street hookers for every patron of prostitutes and dead-beat dad on the block.

If healthcare is a “good” for individuals making their own decisions, then there is no reason why a free market cannot deliver it. It is when prostitutes have to be involuntarily committed for healthcare against their will and extorted and beaten for the payment of it that government must intervene.

The price of healthcare rises and rises because there is no market pressure for it to decrease.

 

[Brain357]

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You don’t understand markets?

PIss off.

Markets don’t work for healthcare. Once you figure that out you will see universal is only real option.

Listen, asswipe, I ask you above for clarification on what you mean by "work for healthcare" and you declined to answer, choosing instead to insult me. If want to continue the conversation, start with answering those questions. Until you do, the statement you keep chanting, "Markets don't work for healthcare", has no meaning.

Again:

Healthcare costs just go up, markets have no downward pressure on healthcare. The guy in an ambulance can’t shop a cheaper price so they just charge more and more...

Again, I don't know what you mean by "work". Are you presuming that the purpose of a free market is to provide people with their needs? And if someone can't get what they need the market has failed?

You are really slow. If there is no downward pressure on pricing, then markets aren’t working. It’s more of a monopoly situation and prices just increase. Competition is important in markets. Again the guy in an ambulance isn’t shopping around. What don’t you get?

There's no downward pressure because no one is paying for their own health care. They've been herded, by government, into employer-provided, group health insurance that obliterates all normal market dynamics - actually turns them upside down so that health care consumers have incentive to choose the more expensive option at every opportunity.

But you're still ignoring my question. Is it that you don't understand it? Or that you just don't want to talk about it? What are you so afraid of? If you're going to claim that markets don't "work" for health care, you need to say what that means. What would it mean for a market to "work"? You seem to be assuming that the purpose of a market is provide everyone with their needs. You don't seem to want to admit that though. Why are you such a chickenshit about it? Can't you just have an honest conversation without all the evasion?

I’ve explained it several times. The number of emergency room patients in a day is dependent on the number of sudden illnesses and accidents. What they charge has no effect. So the price goes up and up. Markets don’t work for healthcare.

There's no downward pressure because no one is paying for their own health care. They've been herded, by government, into employer-provided, group health insurance that obliterates all normal market dynamics - actually turns them upside down so that health care consumers have incentive to choose the more expensive option at every opportunity. But just ignore this and keep chanting. You're getting good at it.

Anyway, since you won't answer my question, I'll assume that you think the purpose of a market is to provide everyone with what they need, and that's where we disagree. A free market doesn't have a purpose, other than freedom. It allows people to pursue their own goals by trading and collaborating with others. It's really freedom that you're railing against. You want things to be controlled by the government. Why?

Being sick destroys all market dynamics. You need to figure that out.

I've already figured that out. I've been sick, without insurance. And I looked for medical service that I could afford. I avoided expensive ambulance service when I could. I negotiated for lower rates and asked about cheaper alternatives. Later, when I had insurance, I didn't give a shit about any of that. I went to the doctor that was close by and had the nicest office. I never asked about prices.

Anyway, none of your whinging about that has anything to do with whether markets "work" or not. Since you haven't specified what it means for a market to "work" there's no way to tell what the fuck you mean. But evasion seems to be your go to - so maybe that's intentional.

If you had figured that out you would know universal is the only way.

The only way to what?

Bottom line, I don't want Donald Trump, or any other unscrupulous politician, in charge of my health care.

That's nice, but leaving it in the hands of greedy companies is quickly making it unaffordable. Universal is the only way to make it affordable and insure everyone has access to healthcare. You have no valid arguments against this.

Wanna bet? Your premise simply isn't true. We don't have to leave it in the hands of greedy companies. They have no power to force us to do business with them. The government does. The problem is that government is doing the bidding of these companies and pushing people into their pens - first with tax policies and regulation, then with mandates. Repeal these laws, and use the commerce clause to strike down anti-competitive state regulations. Then we can see whether the market "works" or not.

People should be free to pay for their health care however they want. There's no need for government to dictate. It's merely a power-grab.

Also, once again, you steered around my question (your pattern I guess). You said UHC "is the only way". The only way to what?

You have some imagination.

 

[Brain357]

Something wrong with anyone who thinks we all shouldn’t have healthcare. Our current system is a super expensive mess.

there's also something wrong with the government forcing people to pay for things they don't need want and will never use

Like all the increased military spending?

yup.

but then again there really is no correlation between health care and the military.

Now if everyone was mandated to buy a rifle that would be a better comparison

We all need healthcare at some point.

but we don't all need the same health care.

I don't need drug counseling but I am forced to pay for it.

I don't need pediatric or obstetric health care because I don't have kids and I'm not a woman but I have to pay for it.

And if we have a universal healthcare system it is cheaper for all.

irrelevant

And I don't think that's true at all.

Our current system is by far the most expensive. That’s a well known fact,

tough too say when government health care costs are nearly impossible to track

I would say it is the opposite, in that government health care costs are very trivial to track, like with Medicare, VA hospitals, etc., and they are tiny compared to what you pay with private health care systems like private health insurance paying private hospitals for treatment the patient has already prepaid for and has no say then at all over quality or cost.
There can be nothing worse than prepaying through insurance premiums.
Worst possible system.

and you think the government can provide better health care?

you don't think that adding 335 million people to government health care will result in trivial costs?

Other governments are providing better at a fraction of the cost of ours.

 

[Brain357]

Here's how it works in binary thinking Conservatopia:

If you are not a flag waving, bible thumping, right wing conservative republican, then the only other choice you have is communism.

There is no middle ground in Conservatopia.

Whatever. I just don't want the likes of Donald Trump controlling our health care.

I like Donald Trump’s policies and voted for him, but I don’t want any politician controlling my healthcare. The problem for many on the left is they are able to think two steps ahead. “Free” stuff is enticiing..like candy for a baby. Never mind that the candy is dangling over a cliff. They go for it, without thinking first.

Republicans love all that free military spending they get. Heck they usually get a tax cut and their wanted spending.

 

[Brain357]

Here's how it works in binary thinking Conservatopia:

If you are not a flag waving, bible thumping, right wing conservative republican, then the only other choice you have is communism.

There is no middle ground in Conservatopia.

Whatever. I just don't want the likes of Donald Trump controlling our health care.

The corporations are probably worse.

 

[Brain357]

There Is Never A 'Free Market' In Health Care (forbes.com)

In a free market, goods and services are allocated through transactions based on mutual consent. No one is forced to buy from a particular supplier. No one is forced to engage in any transaction at all. In a free market, no transactions occur if a price cannot be agreed.

The medical industry exists almost entirely to serve people who have been rendered incapable of representing their own interests in an adversarial transaction. When I need health services I often need them in a way that is quite different from my desire for a good quality television or a fine automobile. As I lie unconscious under a bus, I am in no position to shop for the best provider of ambulance services at the most reasonable price. All personal volition is lost. Whatever happens next, it will not be a market transaction.

 

[Blues Man]

Something wrong with anyone who thinks we all shouldn’t have healthcare. Our current system is a super expensive mess.

there's also something wrong with the government forcing people to pay for things they don't need want and will never use

Like all the increased military spending?

yup.

but then again there really is no correlation between health care and the military.

Now if everyone was mandated to buy a rifle that would be a better comparison

We all need healthcare at some point.

but we don't all need the same health care.

I don't need drug counseling but I am forced to pay for it.

I don't need pediatric or obstetric health care because I don't have kids and I'm not a woman but I have to pay for it.

And if we have a universal healthcare system it is cheaper for all.

irrelevant

And I don't think that's true at all.

Our current system is by far the most expensive. That’s a well known fact,

tough too say when government health care costs are nearly impossible to track

I would say it is the opposite, in that government health care costs are very trivial to track, like with Medicare, VA hospitals, etc., and they are tiny compared to what you pay with private health care systems like private health insurance paying private hospitals for treatment the patient has already prepaid for and has no say then at all over quality or cost.
There can be nothing worse than prepaying through insurance premiums.
Worst possible system.

and you think the government can provide better health care?

you don't think that adding 335 million people to government health care will result in trivial costs?

Other governments are providing better at a fraction of the cost of ours.

not really. you have no idea what any other government actually pays

 

[dblack]

Here's how it works in binary thinking Conservatopia:

If you are not a flag waving, bible thumping, right wing conservative republican, then the only other choice you have is communism.

There is no middle ground in Conservatopia.

Whatever. I just don't want the likes of Donald Trump controlling our health care.

The corporations are probably worse.

False dilemma. Try again.

 

[dblack]

Markets don't work for health care - MarketWatch

>>> In fact, totally free markets are abysmally bad at delivering health care. That's why every advanced economy, to one degree or another, has given government a large role in providing health care to its citizens.​

>>> We've tried the market approach to health care and the result has always been the same: Poor health and poor people.​

>>> Poverty and disease go together, and the causation goes both ways. Show me a country that keeps the government out of health care and I'll show you a country that spends too much on death and not enough on life.​

>>> I'm not arguing that everything government does is good, or that everything the private sector does is bad. It's clear that government actions can have their own failures that make health care more expensive or less effective. All I'm arguing here is that relying on markets exclusively leaves us poorer and sicker.​

Straight from the spokesman of a Communist Party politburo.

If it's some kind of pill or medication, free markets are amazingly efficient at delivering it. If it's something to be forced on patients against their will, then of course there’s always a market for extortion, forced drugging, and involuntary hospitalization under the explicit blessing and protection of government.

The real healthcare market is precisely in the government intervention to enforce routine mayhem, involuntary vaccination, mass murder, and abortion-on-demand at the pleasure of street hookers for every patron of prostitutes and dead-beat dad on the block.

If healthcare is a “good” for individuals making their own decisions, then there is no reason why a free market cannot deliver it. It is when prostitutes have to be involuntarily committed for healthcare against their will and extorted and beaten for the payment of it that government must intervene.

The price of healthcare rises and rises because there is no market pressure for it to decrease.

Because of state policies that interfere with market pressure. Revoke them, and prices normalize.

 

[Blues Man]

Markets don't work for health care - MarketWatch

>>> In fact, totally free markets are abysmally bad at delivering health care. That's why every advanced economy, to one degree or another, has given government a large role in providing health care to its citizens.​

>>> We've tried the market approach to health care and the result has always been the same: Poor health and poor people.​

>>> Poverty and disease go together, and the causation goes both ways. Show me a country that keeps the government out of health care and I'll show you a country that spends too much on death and not enough on life.​

>>> I'm not arguing that everything government does is good, or that everything the private sector does is bad. It's clear that government actions can have their own failures that make health care more expensive or less effective. All I'm arguing here is that relying on markets exclusively leaves us poorer and sicker.​

Straight from the spokesman of a Communist Party politburo.

If it's some kind of pill or medication, free markets are amazingly efficient at delivering it. If it's something to be forced on patients against their will, then of course there’s always a market for extortion, forced drugging, and involuntary hospitalization under the explicit blessing and protection of government.

The real healthcare market is precisely in the government intervention to enforce routine mayhem, involuntary vaccination, mass murder, and abortion-on-demand at the pleasure of street hookers for every patron of prostitutes and dead-beat dad on the block.

If healthcare is a “good” for individuals making their own decisions, then there is no reason why a free market cannot deliver it. It is when prostitutes have to be involuntarily committed for healthcare against their will and extorted and beaten for the payment of it that government must intervene.

The price of healthcare rises and rises because there is no market pressure for it to decrease.

Because of state policies that interfere with market pressure. Revoke them, and prices normalize.

we have never had a transparent pricing model for medical care.

Therefore the consumer can put no pressure on medical service providers to lower their prices.

If any person could walk into a Dr office and see a menu of services offered and the price for each then we could apply market pressure to the health care industry and prices would drop and service would get better

 

[Brain357]

Markets don't work for health care - MarketWatch

>>> In fact, totally free markets are abysmally bad at delivering health care. That's why every advanced economy, to one degree or another, has given government a large role in providing health care to its citizens.​

>>> We've tried the market approach to health care and the result has always been the same: Poor health and poor people.​

>>> Poverty and disease go together, and the causation goes both ways. Show me a country that keeps the government out of health care and I'll show you a country that spends too much on death and not enough on life.​

>>> I'm not arguing that everything government does is good, or that everything the private sector does is bad. It's clear that government actions can have their own failures that make health care more expensive or less effective. All I'm arguing here is that relying on markets exclusively leaves us poorer and sicker.​

Straight from the spokesman of a Communist Party politburo.

If it's some kind of pill or medication, free markets are amazingly efficient at delivering it. If it's something to be forced on patients against their will, then of course there’s always a market for extortion, forced drugging, and involuntary hospitalization under the explicit blessing and protection of government.

The real healthcare market is precisely in the government intervention to enforce routine mayhem, involuntary vaccination, mass murder, and abortion-on-demand at the pleasure of street hookers for every patron of prostitutes and dead-beat dad on the block.

If healthcare is a “good” for individuals making their own decisions, then there is no reason why a free market cannot deliver it. It is when prostitutes have to be involuntarily committed for healthcare against their will and extorted and beaten for the payment of it that government must intervene.

The price of healthcare rises and rises because there is no market pressure for it to decrease.

Because of state policies that interfere with market pressure. Revoke them, and prices normalize.

Markets don't work in healthcare for obvious reasons. Counter my emergency room example if you can. Why would an emergency room not continue to increase prices? The number of patients is based on accidents and sudden illness, their pricing has no effect so they can charge more and more....

 

[Blues Man]

Markets don't work for health care - MarketWatch

>>> In fact, totally free markets are abysmally bad at delivering health care. That's why every advanced economy, to one degree or another, has given government a large role in providing health care to its citizens.​

>>> We've tried the market approach to health care and the result has always been the same: Poor health and poor people.​

>>> Poverty and disease go together, and the causation goes both ways. Show me a country that keeps the government out of health care and I'll show you a country that spends too much on death and not enough on life.​

>>> I'm not arguing that everything government does is good, or that everything the private sector does is bad. It's clear that government actions can have their own failures that make health care more expensive or less effective. All I'm arguing here is that relying on markets exclusively leaves us poorer and sicker.​

Straight from the spokesman of a Communist Party politburo.

If it's some kind of pill or medication, free markets are amazingly efficient at delivering it. If it's something to be forced on patients against their will, then of course there’s always a market for extortion, forced drugging, and involuntary hospitalization under the explicit blessing and protection of government.

The real healthcare market is precisely in the government intervention to enforce routine mayhem, involuntary vaccination, mass murder, and abortion-on-demand at the pleasure of street hookers for every patron of prostitutes and dead-beat dad on the block.

If healthcare is a “good” for individuals making their own decisions, then there is no reason why a free market cannot deliver it. It is when prostitutes have to be involuntarily committed for healthcare against their will and extorted and beaten for the payment of it that government must intervene.

The price of healthcare rises and rises because there is no market pressure for it to decrease.

Because of state policies that interfere with market pressure. Revoke them, and prices normalize.

Markets don't work in healthcare for obvious reasons. Counter my emergency room example if you can. Why would an emergency room not continue to increase prices? The number of patients is based on accidents and sudden illness, their pricing has no effect so they can charge more and more....

most medical care does not take place in the emergency room.

 

[Brain357]

Markets don't work for health care - MarketWatch

>>> In fact, totally free markets are abysmally bad at delivering health care. That's why every advanced economy, to one degree or another, has given government a large role in providing health care to its citizens.​

>>> We've tried the market approach to health care and the result has always been the same: Poor health and poor people.​

>>> Poverty and disease go together, and the causation goes both ways. Show me a country that keeps the government out of health care and I'll show you a country that spends too much on death and not enough on life.​

>>> I'm not arguing that everything government does is good, or that everything the private sector does is bad. It's clear that government actions can have their own failures that make health care more expensive or less effective. All I'm arguing here is that relying on markets exclusively leaves us poorer and sicker.​

Straight from the spokesman of a Communist Party politburo.

If it's some kind of pill or medication, free markets are amazingly efficient at delivering it. If it's something to be forced on patients against their will, then of course there’s always a market for extortion, forced drugging, and involuntary hospitalization under the explicit blessing and protection of government.

The real healthcare market is precisely in the government intervention to enforce routine mayhem, involuntary vaccination, mass murder, and abortion-on-demand at the pleasure of street hookers for every patron of prostitutes and dead-beat dad on the block.

If healthcare is a “good” for individuals making their own decisions, then there is no reason why a free market cannot deliver it. It is when prostitutes have to be involuntarily committed for healthcare against their will and extorted and beaten for the payment of it that government must intervene.

The price of healthcare rises and rises because there is no market pressure for it to decrease.

Because of state policies that interfere with market pressure. Revoke them, and prices normalize.

we have never had a transparent pricing model for medical care.

Therefore the consumer can put no pressure on medical service providers to lower their prices.

If any person could walk into a Dr office and see a menu of services offered and the price for each then we could apply market pressure to the health care industry and prices would drop and service would get better

It hardly matters. Emergency and life saving care are the big bills. You have no real choice in emergency care and nobody is going to pick the budget option for life saving care.

 

[Brain357]

Markets don't work for health care - MarketWatch

>>> In fact, totally free markets are abysmally bad at delivering health care. That's why every advanced economy, to one degree or another, has given government a large role in providing health care to its citizens.​

>>> We've tried the market approach to health care and the result has always been the same: Poor health and poor people.​

>>> Poverty and disease go together, and the causation goes both ways. Show me a country that keeps the government out of health care and I'll show you a country that spends too much on death and not enough on life.​

>>> I'm not arguing that everything government does is good, or that everything the private sector does is bad. It's clear that government actions can have their own failures that make health care more expensive or less effective. All I'm arguing here is that relying on markets exclusively leaves us poorer and sicker.​

Straight from the spokesman of a Communist Party politburo.

If it's some kind of pill or medication, free markets are amazingly efficient at delivering it. If it's something to be forced on patients against their will, then of course there’s always a market for extortion, forced drugging, and involuntary hospitalization under the explicit blessing and protection of government.

The real healthcare market is precisely in the government intervention to enforce routine mayhem, involuntary vaccination, mass murder, and abortion-on-demand at the pleasure of street hookers for every patron of prostitutes and dead-beat dad on the block.

If healthcare is a “good” for individuals making their own decisions, then there is no reason why a free market cannot deliver it. It is when prostitutes have to be involuntarily committed for healthcare against their will and extorted and beaten for the payment of it that government must intervene.

The price of healthcare rises and rises because there is no market pressure for it to decrease.

Because of state policies that interfere with market pressure. Revoke them, and prices normalize.

Markets don't work in healthcare for obvious reasons. Counter my emergency room example if you can. Why would an emergency room not continue to increase prices? The number of patients is based on accidents and sudden illness, their pricing has no effect so they can charge more and more....

most medical care does not take place in the emergency room.

But those are huge bills relative to others. So tell me what market force could hold pricing down?

 

[Blues Man]

Markets don't work for health care - MarketWatch

>>> In fact, totally free markets are abysmally bad at delivering health care. That's why every advanced economy, to one degree or another, has given government a large role in providing health care to its citizens.​

>>> We've tried the market approach to health care and the result has always been the same: Poor health and poor people.​

>>> Poverty and disease go together, and the causation goes both ways. Show me a country that keeps the government out of health care and I'll show you a country that spends too much on death and not enough on life.​

>>> I'm not arguing that everything government does is good, or that everything the private sector does is bad. It's clear that government actions can have their own failures that make health care more expensive or less effective. All I'm arguing here is that relying on markets exclusively leaves us poorer and sicker.​

Straight from the spokesman of a Communist Party politburo.

If it's some kind of pill or medication, free markets are amazingly efficient at delivering it. If it's something to be forced on patients against their will, then of course there’s always a market for extortion, forced drugging, and involuntary hospitalization under the explicit blessing and protection of government.

The real healthcare market is precisely in the government intervention to enforce routine mayhem, involuntary vaccination, mass murder, and abortion-on-demand at the pleasure of street hookers for every patron of prostitutes and dead-beat dad on the block.

If healthcare is a “good” for individuals making their own decisions, then there is no reason why a free market cannot deliver it. It is when prostitutes have to be involuntarily committed for healthcare against their will and extorted and beaten for the payment of it that government must intervene.

The price of healthcare rises and rises because there is no market pressure for it to decrease.

Because of state policies that interfere with market pressure. Revoke them, and prices normalize.

we have never had a transparent pricing model for medical care.

Therefore the consumer can put no pressure on medical service providers to lower their prices.

If any person could walk into a Dr office and see a menu of services offered and the price for each then we could apply market pressure to the health care industry and prices would drop and service would get better

It hardly matters. Emergency and life saving care are the big bills. You have no real choice in emergency care and nobody is going to pick the budget option for life saving care.

and catastrophic care insurance is cheaper than universal health care. All you would need is an insurance policy that covers injuries and severe illness like i used to have before Obama care made me pay for all kinds of shit I don't need and will never use

If you knew the cost of a physical, X rays, lab work etc you then you could shop around for the best price and the best service.

and it would amount to a huge savings.

 

[Brain357]

Markets don't work for health care - MarketWatch

>>> In fact, totally free markets are abysmally bad at delivering health care. That's why every advanced economy, to one degree or another, has given government a large role in providing health care to its citizens.​

>>> We've tried the market approach to health care and the result has always been the same: Poor health and poor people.​

>>> Poverty and disease go together, and the causation goes both ways. Show me a country that keeps the government out of health care and I'll show you a country that spends too much on death and not enough on life.​

>>> I'm not arguing that everything government does is good, or that everything the private sector does is bad. It's clear that government actions can have their own failures that make health care more expensive or less effective. All I'm arguing here is that relying on markets exclusively leaves us poorer and sicker.​

Straight from the spokesman of a Communist Party politburo.

If it's some kind of pill or medication, free markets are amazingly efficient at delivering it. If it's something to be forced on patients against their will, then of course there’s always a market for extortion, forced drugging, and involuntary hospitalization under the explicit blessing and protection of government.

The real healthcare market is precisely in the government intervention to enforce routine mayhem, involuntary vaccination, mass murder, and abortion-on-demand at the pleasure of street hookers for every patron of prostitutes and dead-beat dad on the block.

If healthcare is a “good” for individuals making their own decisions, then there is no reason why a free market cannot deliver it. It is when prostitutes have to be involuntarily committed for healthcare against their will and extorted and beaten for the payment of it that government must intervene.

The price of healthcare rises and rises because there is no market pressure for it to decrease.

Because of state policies that interfere with market pressure. Revoke them, and prices normalize.

we have never had a transparent pricing model for medical care.

Therefore the consumer can put no pressure on medical service providers to lower their prices.

If any person could walk into a Dr office and see a menu of services offered and the price for each then we could apply market pressure to the health care industry and prices would drop and service would get better

It hardly matters. Emergency and life saving care are the big bills. You have no real choice in emergency care and nobody is going to pick the budget option for life saving care.

and catastrophic care insurance is cheaper than universal health care. All you would need is an insurance policy that covers injuries and severe illness like i used to have before Obama care made me pay for all kinds of shit I don't need and will never use

If you knew the cost of a physical, X rays, lab work etc you then you could shop around for the best price and the best service.

and it would amount to a huge savings.

Healthcare was rising drastically long before obamacare. Most sick people don't want to shop around. And if you need life saving surgery you aren't going to go for budget surgery anyhow. Saving a few bucks means nothing if your are dead.

 

[Blues Man]

Markets don't work for health care - MarketWatch

>>> In fact, totally free markets are abysmally bad at delivering health care. That's why every advanced economy, to one degree or another, has given government a large role in providing health care to its citizens.​

>>> We've tried the market approach to health care and the result has always been the same: Poor health and poor people.​

>>> Poverty and disease go together, and the causation goes both ways. Show me a country that keeps the government out of health care and I'll show you a country that spends too much on death and not enough on life.​

>>> I'm not arguing that everything government does is good, or that everything the private sector does is bad. It's clear that government actions can have their own failures that make health care more expensive or less effective. All I'm arguing here is that relying on markets exclusively leaves us poorer and sicker.​

Straight from the spokesman of a Communist Party politburo.

If it's some kind of pill or medication, free markets are amazingly efficient at delivering it. If it's something to be forced on patients against their will, then of course there’s always a market for extortion, forced drugging, and involuntary hospitalization under the explicit blessing and protection of government.

The real healthcare market is precisely in the government intervention to enforce routine mayhem, involuntary vaccination, mass murder, and abortion-on-demand at the pleasure of street hookers for every patron of prostitutes and dead-beat dad on the block.

If healthcare is a “good” for individuals making their own decisions, then there is no reason why a free market cannot deliver it. It is when prostitutes have to be involuntarily committed for healthcare against their will and extorted and beaten for the payment of it that government must intervene.

The price of healthcare rises and rises because there is no market pressure for it to decrease.

Because of state policies that interfere with market pressure. Revoke them, and prices normalize.

Markets don't work in healthcare for obvious reasons. Counter my emergency room example if you can. Why would an emergency room not continue to increase prices? The number of patients is based on accidents and sudden illness, their pricing has no effect so they can charge more and more....

most medical care does not take place in the emergency room.

But those are huge bills relative to others. So tell me what market force could hold pricing down?

in the aggregate routine medical care adds up and you're not arguing for universal injury insurance or catastrophic illness insurance you want ALL health care to be "free".

billions annually could be saved if the consumer could apply pressure to the market.

 

[Brain357]

Markets don't work for health care - MarketWatch

>>> In fact, totally free markets are abysmally bad at delivering health care. That's why every advanced economy, to one degree or another, has given government a large role in providing health care to its citizens.​

>>> We've tried the market approach to health care and the result has always been the same: Poor health and poor people.​

>>> Poverty and disease go together, and the causation goes both ways. Show me a country that keeps the government out of health care and I'll show you a country that spends too much on death and not enough on life.​

>>> I'm not arguing that everything government does is good, or that everything the private sector does is bad. It's clear that government actions can have their own failures that make health care more expensive or less effective. All I'm arguing here is that relying on markets exclusively leaves us poorer and sicker.​

Straight from the spokesman of a Communist Party politburo.

If it's some kind of pill or medication, free markets are amazingly efficient at delivering it. If it's something to be forced on patients against their will, then of course there’s always a market for extortion, forced drugging, and involuntary hospitalization under the explicit blessing and protection of government.

The real healthcare market is precisely in the government intervention to enforce routine mayhem, involuntary vaccination, mass murder, and abortion-on-demand at the pleasure of street hookers for every patron of prostitutes and dead-beat dad on the block.

If healthcare is a “good” for individuals making their own decisions, then there is no reason why a free market cannot deliver it. It is when prostitutes have to be involuntarily committed for healthcare against their will and extorted and beaten for the payment of it that government must intervene.

The price of healthcare rises and rises because there is no market pressure for it to decrease.

Because of state policies that interfere with market pressure. Revoke them, and prices normalize.

Markets don't work in healthcare for obvious reasons. Counter my emergency room example if you can. Why would an emergency room not continue to increase prices? The number of patients is based on accidents and sudden illness, their pricing has no effect so they can charge more and more....

most medical care does not take place in the emergency room.

But those are huge bills relative to others. So tell me what market force could hold pricing down?

in the aggregate routine medical care adds up and you're not arguing for universal injury insurance or catastrophic illness insurance you want ALL health care to be "free".

billions annually could be saved if the consumer could apply pressure to the market.

Nobody is going bankrupt from routine medical care. The real problem is expensive surgery and emergency care. Markets don't work for those for obvious reason. You only offer a small bandaid to the problem. The expenses that bankrupt people would continue.

 

[Blues Man]

Markets don't work for health care - MarketWatch

>>> In fact, totally free markets are abysmally bad at delivering health care. That's why every advanced economy, to one degree or another, has given government a large role in providing health care to its citizens.​

>>> We've tried the market approach to health care and the result has always been the same: Poor health and poor people.​

>>> Poverty and disease go together, and the causation goes both ways. Show me a country that keeps the government out of health care and I'll show you a country that spends too much on death and not enough on life.​

>>> I'm not arguing that everything government does is good, or that everything the private sector does is bad. It's clear that government actions can have their own failures that make health care more expensive or less effective. All I'm arguing here is that relying on markets exclusively leaves us poorer and sicker.​

Straight from the spokesman of a Communist Party politburo.

If it's some kind of pill or medication, free markets are amazingly efficient at delivering it. If it's something to be forced on patients against their will, then of course there’s always a market for extortion, forced drugging, and involuntary hospitalization under the explicit blessing and protection of government.

The real healthcare market is precisely in the government intervention to enforce routine mayhem, involuntary vaccination, mass murder, and abortion-on-demand at the pleasure of street hookers for every patron of prostitutes and dead-beat dad on the block.

If healthcare is a “good” for individuals making their own decisions, then there is no reason why a free market cannot deliver it. It is when prostitutes have to be involuntarily committed for healthcare against their will and extorted and beaten for the payment of it that government must intervene.

The price of healthcare rises and rises because there is no market pressure for it to decrease.

Because of state policies that interfere with market pressure. Revoke them, and prices normalize.

we have never had a transparent pricing model for medical care.

Therefore the consumer can put no pressure on medical service providers to lower their prices.

If any person could walk into a Dr office and see a menu of services offered and the price for each then we could apply market pressure to the health care industry and prices would drop and service would get better

It hardly matters. Emergency and life saving care are the big bills. You have no real choice in emergency care and nobody is going to pick the budget option for life saving care.

and catastrophic care insurance is cheaper than universal health care. All you would need is an insurance policy that covers injuries and severe illness like i used to have before Obama care made me pay for all kinds of shit I don't need and will never use

If you knew the cost of a physical, X rays, lab work etc you then you could shop around for the best price and the best service.

and it would amount to a huge savings.

Healthcare was rising drastically long before obamacare. Most sick people don't want to shop around. And if you need life saving surgery you aren't going to go for budget surgery anyhow. Saving a few bucks means nothing if your are dead.

IDGAf if people don't want to shop around.

and the fact is most people will not need lifesaving surgery. Your plan is like saying why should i save on tune ups and brakes because if my transmission goes it will be expensive so I might as well not try to save any money on tune ups and oil changes.

If even part of the health care industry was open to market forces that would leave billions of dollars annually to deal with the emergency issues.

you are too short sighted

 

[Brain357]

Markets don't work for health care - MarketWatch

>>> In fact, totally free markets are abysmally bad at delivering health care. That's why every advanced economy, to one degree or another, has given government a large role in providing health care to its citizens.​

>>> We've tried the market approach to health care and the result has always been the same: Poor health and poor people.​

>>> Poverty and disease go together, and the causation goes both ways. Show me a country that keeps the government out of health care and I'll show you a country that spends too much on death and not enough on life.​

>>> I'm not arguing that everything government does is good, or that everything the private sector does is bad. It's clear that government actions can have their own failures that make health care more expensive or less effective. All I'm arguing here is that relying on markets exclusively leaves us poorer and sicker.​

Straight from the spokesman of a Communist Party politburo.

If it's some kind of pill or medication, free markets are amazingly efficient at delivering it. If it's something to be forced on patients against their will, then of course there’s always a market for extortion, forced drugging, and involuntary hospitalization under the explicit blessing and protection of government.

The real healthcare market is precisely in the government intervention to enforce routine mayhem, involuntary vaccination, mass murder, and abortion-on-demand at the pleasure of street hookers for every patron of prostitutes and dead-beat dad on the block.

If healthcare is a “good” for individuals making their own decisions, then there is no reason why a free market cannot deliver it. It is when prostitutes have to be involuntarily committed for healthcare against their will and extorted and beaten for the payment of it that government must intervene.

The price of healthcare rises and rises because there is no market pressure for it to decrease.

Because of state policies that interfere with market pressure. Revoke them, and prices normalize.

we have never had a transparent pricing model for medical care.

Therefore the consumer can put no pressure on medical service providers to lower their prices.

If any person could walk into a Dr office and see a menu of services offered and the price for each then we could apply market pressure to the health care industry and prices would drop and service would get better

It hardly matters. Emergency and life saving care are the big bills. You have no real choice in emergency care and nobody is going to pick the budget option for life saving care.

and catastrophic care insurance is cheaper than universal health care. All you would need is an insurance policy that covers injuries and severe illness like i used to have before Obama care made me pay for all kinds of shit I don't need and will never use

If you knew the cost of a physical, X rays, lab work etc you then you could shop around for the best price and the best service.

and it would amount to a huge savings.

Healthcare was rising drastically long before obamacare. Most sick people don't want to shop around. And if you need life saving surgery you aren't going to go for budget surgery anyhow. Saving a few bucks means nothing if your are dead.

IDGAf if people don't want to shop around.

and the fact is most people will not need lifesaving surgery. Your plan is like saying why should i save on tune ups and brakes because if my transmission goes it will be expensive so I might as well not try to save any money on tune ups and oil changes.

If even part of the health care industry was open to market forces that would leave billions of dollars annually to deal with the emergency issues.

you are too short sighted

That's nice you don't care, but if it was your child in pain who needed medical attention I doubt you would spend much time shopping.

Again, nobody is going bankrupt from the things you are suggesting. Many people don't even get any routine care. If you have no answer for the expensive surgeries and emergency care you have nothing.