LGBT & ? vs Utah: Legal Arguments at 10th Circuit Begin April 10, 2014

[Pop23]

State law, despite Sil's greatest wish to have her desires trump facts, may not contradict the Constitution's protect of civil liberties.

Let me make this perfectly clear. I support gay marriage, or some sort of unification for very practical reasons.

I believe that homosexuality is a genetic condition. For far too long, gays, having this genetic make up have been in the closet. Many of these, in an effort to fit in tried to convince themselves they were straight and bred with unsuspecting heterosexuals, passing that genetic make up along without the mates knowledge. That needs to end, and giving homosexuals a comfortable place in society makes this far less likely.

Am I wrong?

 

[Silhouette]

State law, despite Sil's greatest wish to have her desires trump facts, may not contradict the Constitution's protect of civil liberties.

Let me make this perfectly clear. I support gay marriage, or some sort of unification for very practical reasons.

I believe that homosexuality is a genetic condition. For far too long, gays, having this genetic make up have been in the closet. Many of these, in an effort to fit in tried to convince themselves they were straight and bred with unsuspecting heterosexuals, passing that genetic make up along without the mates knowledge. That needs to end, and giving homosexuals a comfortable place in society makes this far less likely.

Am I wrong?

Yes you are wrong. Look up "conditioning" and "imprinting" and get back to me. Also go to a gay linguistics source and look up "turned" or "to turn" or "Anne Heche".

 

[Silhouette]

State law, despite Sil's greatest wish to have her desires trump facts, may not contradict the Constitution's protect of civil liberties.

Windsor/DOMA isn't state law. It is a federally rendered decision by the US Supreme Court. It found "gay" lacking as to the 14th & instead found a state's broadest consensus the "unquestioned authority" on whether gay marriage is legal there or not. Any subsequent lower court ruling that is in defiance of that is in contempt of the higher court & guilty of tryanny & sedition of the state's democratic process that the activist judge just hogtied.

There are Constitutional rights being violated right & left. Just not the ones you are thinking of.

 

[Pop23]

State law, despite Sil's greatest wish to have her desires trump facts, may not contradict the Constitution's protect of civil liberties.

Let me make this perfectly clear. I support gay marriage, or some sort of unification for very practical reasons.

I believe that homosexuality is a genetic condition. For far too long, gays, having this genetic make up have been in the closet. Many of these, in an effort to fit in tried to convince themselves they were straight and bred with unsuspecting heterosexuals, passing that genetic make up along without the mates knowledge. That needs to end, and giving homosexuals a comfortable place in society makes this far less likely.

Am I wrong?

Yes you are wrong. Look up "conditioning" and "imprinting" and get back to me. Also go to a gay linguistics source and look up "turned" or "to turn" or "Anne Heche".

If you are correct, then I am wrong. If I am correct, the problem solves itself.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes you are wrong. Look up "conditioning" and "imprinting" and get back to me. Also go to a gay linguistics source and look up "turned" or "to turn" or "Anne Heche".

conditioning - Dictionary definition and pronunciation - Yahoo! Education

"A process of behavior modification by which a subject comes to associate a desired behavior with a previously unrelated stimulus."

So, how exactly, does a person come to be conditioned to be gay?

How can you have twins where one is gay and one isn't?

I'll take the example of the useless boss I worked for when I was doing a part time job in school. We all knew he was gay, he denied it. He even said he'd slept with this girl and that. Then he became the boss of the place, and met other bosses who happened to be gay and went nuts that he had finally come clean.
So, living in a rural backwater, thinking he wasn't gay, or at least being fearful of it, how was he conditioned exactly? It's not like gay people stay around this area, they get out.


Collins English Dictionary | Always Free Online

"the development through exceptionally fast learning in young animals of recognition of and attraction to members of their own species or to surrogates"

Definitions of imprinting - OneLook Dictionary Search

"noun: a learning process in early life whereby species specific patterns of behavior are established"

So, you're trying to suggest that a child, being brought up by straight parents, having straight teachers, would never turn gay?

Or are you like that wacko who suggests Disney is teaching kids to be gay?

So, I looked them up, and I'm not sure what YOUR point is.

 

[Pop23]

Yes you are wrong. Look up "conditioning" and "imprinting" and get back to me. Also go to a gay linguistics source and look up "turned" or "to turn" or "Anne Heche".

conditioning - Dictionary definition and pronunciation - Yahoo! Education

"A process of behavior modification by which a subject comes to associate a desired behavior with a previously unrelated stimulus."

So, how exactly, does a person come to be conditioned to be gay?

How can you have twins where one is gay and one isn't?

I'll take the example of the useless boss I worked for when I was doing a part time job in school. We all knew he was gay, he denied it. He even said he'd slept with this girl and that. Then he became the boss of the place, and met other bosses who happened to be gay and went nuts that he had finally come clean.
So, living in a rural backwater, thinking he wasn't gay, or at least being fearful of it, how was he conditioned exactly? It's not like gay people stay around this area, they get out.


Collins English Dictionary | Always Free Online

"the development through exceptionally fast learning in young animals of recognition of and attraction to members of their own species or to surrogates"

Definitions of imprinting - OneLook Dictionary Search

"noun: a learning process in early life whereby species specific patterns of behavior are established"

So, you're trying to suggest that a child, being brought up by straight parents, having straight teachers, would never turn gay?

Or are you like that wacko who suggests Disney is teaching kids to be gay?

So, I looked them up, and I'm not sure what YOUR point is.

I have a neighbor. Two grandchildren from the same parents. One has a genetic malady, the other did not.

As for the twins. One may be outwardly gay, the other closeted.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I have a neighbor. Two grandchildren from the same parents. One has a genetic malady, the other did not.

As for the twins. One may be outwardly gay, the other closeted.

Maybe, maybe not. Chances are if there are two twins and one is out of the closet, the other one won't be gay at all if they haven't come out. But then I guess individual cases are just that, we can generalise, we can show examples, but people are going to do things their own way.

However, I don't believe you can learn to be gay. There was no way in hell I was ever going to be gay. Doesn't matter what might happen.

 

[Pop23]

I have a neighbor. Two grandchildren from the same parents. One has a genetic malady, the other did not.

As for the twins. One may be outwardly gay, the other closeted.

Maybe, maybe not. Chances are if there are two twins and one is out of the closet, the other one won't be gay at all if they haven't come out. But then I guess individual cases are just that, we can generalise, we can show examples, but people are going to do things their own way.

However, I don't believe you can learn to be gay. There was no way in hell I was ever going to be gay. Doesn't matter what might happen.

You do see that we are agreeing? Right?

Could the second twin simply carry the genetic code?

 

[frigidweirdo]

You do see that we are agreeing? Right?

Could the second twin simply carry the genetic code?

Could, yes or no. It's hypothetical, so it is really meaningless.

Is the person gay or not?

Often, those who are in the closet are afraid of the consequences of coming out. If one twin has seen the other do it, and saw it was okay, then they'd probably do it too.

Why stay in the closet? We could give answers to this, again, hypothetical and generalising don't really add anything to this. We'd be dealing with individual cases, of which I don't actually know any.

 

[Silhouette]

You do see that we are agreeing? Right?

Could the second twin simply carry the genetic code?

Could, yes or no. It's hypothetical, so it is really meaningless.

Is the person gay or not?

Often, those who are in the closet are afraid of the consequences of coming out. If one twin has seen the other do it, and saw it was okay, then they'd probably do it too.

Why stay in the closet? We could give answers to this, again, hypothetical and generalising don't really add anything to this. We'd be dealing with individual cases, of which I don't actually know any.

What about closeted heteros within the "gay" population? Surely you've seen lesbians attracted to very masculine looking other lesbians and gays attracted to effeminant "bottom" gay men. What's going on there?

 

[frigidweirdo]

What about closeted heteros within the "gay" population? Surely you've seen lesbians attracted to very masculine looking other lesbians and gays attracted to effeminant "bottom" gay men. What's going on there?

I don't know, what is your point?

Personally if someone tells me they're gay, then they're gay, if they don't, then I can speculate, but it's not really my business what they do or who they like.

The issues are about equality for all, not what they get up to, or who they are.

 

[Silhouette]

What about closeted heteros within the "gay" population? Surely you've seen lesbians attracted to very masculine looking other lesbians and gays attracted to effeminant "bottom" gay men. What's going on there?

I don't know, what is your point?

Personally if someone tells me they're gay, then they're gay, if they don't, then I can speculate, but it's not really my business what they do or who they like.

The issues are about equality for all, not what they get up to, or who they are.

Answer the question is my point. If a straight man, say, was attracted to really buff, ripped women and insisted they wear flannels and logger boots when he made love to them, you would instantly jump to say that man was closeted gay. I won't even entertain your mock disagreement on that point. However, when a "lipstick lesbian" is attracted to a manly swagger, voice, haircut, body and dress in her female partner, we are disallowed to speculate the lipstick lesbian might actually be a closeted hetero?

The question was for you to explain what you mean by closeted gay and closeted hetero. For surely both must exist, correct? For instance, Anne Heche happened, right?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Answer the question is my point. If a straight man, say, was attracted to really buff, ripped women and insisted they wear flannels and logger boots when he made love to them, you would instantly jump to say that man was closeted gay. I won't even entertain your mock disagreement on that point. However, when a "lipstick lesbian" is attracted to a manly swagger, voice, haircut, body and dress in her female partner, we are disallowed to speculate the lipstick lesbian might actually be a closeted hetero?

The question was for you to explain what you mean by closeted gay and closeted hetero. For surely both must exist, correct? For instance, Anne Heche happened, right?

I did answer the question "I don't know" is my answer.

Why are you debating who jumps on who? I couldn't give a damn who one gay person is attracted to, I couldn't care if a straight man is attracted to skinny or fat girls. I don't care.

What do I mean by closet gay? Someone who fears being themselves because of how they think society, their own little world, will react. So they pretend they aren't gay.

Closet straight people, er... what's the point, they're expected to be straight, not gay. That's how society works. However, might exist, i don't know, or care.

It's not part of the issues here.

 

[Pop23]

You do see that we are agreeing? Right?

Could the second twin simply carry the genetic code?

Could, yes or no. It's hypothetical, so it is really meaningless.

Is the person gay or not?

Often, those who are in the closet are afraid of the consequences of coming out. If one twin has seen the other do it, and saw it was okay, then they'd probably do it too.

Why stay in the closet? We could give answers to this, again, hypothetical and generalising don't really add anything to this. We'd be dealing with individual cases, of which I don't actually know any.

I would just say that the more comfortable a gay would feel in society, the less likely they would be to hide the fact. Example: the second twin in San Francisco would be more likely to come out than the second twin in Des Moines.

It's the societal comfort level that would ultimately bring most of that demographic "out", and I see that as a key.

 

[Silhouette]

Answer the question is my point. If a straight man, say, was attracted to really buff, ripped women and insisted they wear flannels and logger boots when he made love to them, you would instantly jump to say that man was closeted gay. I won't even entertain your mock disagreement on that point. However, when a "lipstick lesbian" is attracted to a manly swagger, voice, haircut, body and dress in her female partner, we are disallowed to speculate the lipstick lesbian might actually be a closeted hetero?

The question was for you to explain what you mean by closeted gay and closeted hetero. For surely both must exist, correct? For instance, Anne Heche happened, right?

I did answer the question "I don't know" is my answer.

Why are you debating who jumps on who? I couldn't give a damn who one gay person is attracted to, I couldn't care if a straight man is attracted to skinny or fat girls. I don't care.

What do I mean by closet gay? Someone who fears being themselves because of how they think society, their own little world, will react. So they pretend they aren't gay.

Closet straight people, er... what's the point, they're expected to be straight, not gay. That's how society works. However, might exist, i don't know, or care.

It's not part of the issues here.

Your dishonesty is rampant and apparent.

You do care about what "gay" means or you wouldn't be part of this discussion. In fact, what "gay" means is the kernel, the hub of the entire discussion here or anywhere else conscerning gay issues. Because if we were to understand the fluid nature of human sexuality, it might be deduced that "gay" is merely a choice or a conditioned behavior. As such it is not an innate state of being and is therefore equivalent in "rights" to other behavioral groups. As such, it is subject to local penal and civil codes and not "constitutional protection".

Constitutional protection of a behavior is an utterly absurd and frankly dangerous precedent to set.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Your dishonesty is rampant and apparent.

You do care about what "gay" means or you wouldn't be part of this discussion. In fact, what "gay" means is the kernel, the hub of the entire discussion here or anywhere else conscerning gay issues. Because if we were to understand the fluid nature of human sexuality, it might be deduced that "gay" is merely a choice or a conditioned behavior. As such it is not an innate state of being and is therefore equivalent in "rights" to other behavioral groups. As such, it is subject to local penal and civil codes and not "constitutional protection".

Constitutional protection of a behavior is an utterly absurd and frankly dangerous precedent to set.

Nice to know you think you know me better than I do. We must be close, huh?

I care about equality. I don't care what gay people get up to. I don't like marriage, but everyone should have the opinion if they choose.
I don't like Islam, but I also think if they're not doing anything wrong, then they can do what they like.

It makes no difference what gay is. People should be free to make their own choices without you having a wet dream about what they're up to.

 

[Silhouette]

Your dishonesty is rampant and apparent.

You do care about what "gay" means or you wouldn't be part of this discussion. In fact, what "gay" means is the kernel, the hub of the entire discussion here or anywhere else conscerning gay issues. Because if we were to understand the fluid nature of human sexuality, it might be deduced that "gay" is merely a choice or a conditioned behavior. As such it is not an innate state of being and is therefore equivalent in "rights" to other behavioral groups. As such, it is subject to local penal and civil codes and not "constitutional protection".

Constitutional protection of a behavior is an utterly absurd and frankly dangerous precedent to set.

Nice to know you think you know me better than I do. We must be close, huh?

I care about equality. I don't care what gay people get up to. I don't like marriage, but everyone should have the opinion if they choose.
I don't like Islam, but I also think if they're not doing anything wrong, then they can do what they like.

It makes no difference what gay is. People should be free to make their own choices without you having a wet dream about what they're up to.

Utah disagrees. Utah's position is that if you want the privelege of marriage, you have to earn it by having sex with a reproductive partner who at least has the potential or represents the icon of the desired pairing that will produce blood kin offspring. Those are the types of offspring most likely to receive the best chance at life with two married parents. So Utah cares who you sleep with when it comes to marriage. They want blood kin children out of the deal. They may not always get that with a barren couple who adopt. But at least that barren hetero couple doesn't muddy the legal description of who may marry.

The point is, as you know but are playing dumb at, is that gays will scream foul at this and will want to blanket themselves with the Constitution and the 14th to dismantle Utah's wishes for itself. And so we discuss what "gay" is and how their sexuality isn't innate. And we do this because being a behavior changes everything at the level of the 14th.

Please stop playing dumb that the question of innate vs behavioral is at the hub of all this.

 

[The Rabbi]

It's well established that homosexuality is not genetically determined. There is something else. Probably a chemical imbalance in the brain. That might explain homosexuals' greater incidence of violence, STDs, and suicide.

 

[Silhouette]

It's well established that homosexuality is not genetically determined. There is something else. Probably a chemical imbalance in the brain. That might explain homosexuals' greater incidence of violence, STDs, and suicide.

No, it is a learned/imprinted behavior that becomes compulsive with conditioning reward [orgasm]. After just a few such rewards, like lab rats, the human briain malleable in the adolescent years still, rewires itself to "prefer" [fill in the blank] stimulus to elicit orgasm. This well understood mechanism [imprinted behaviors] explains all the fetishes quite nicely. And that is because that puzzle piece has been exhaustively studied and proven in sceintific experiements. [You remember those, back when the APA used to rely on them to form conclusions?]

And in fact this imprinting is done daily across all warm blooded species to harvest semen from prized zoo and farm stud animals. You can imprint any sexual orientation you like in any animal you want by merely pairing certain objects or even the same gender, with the first few orgasmic episodes. From then on it's autopilot for the animal who from their own perspective would insist they were "born that way" ...so strong is the new artificial orientation. Surely homo sapiens isn't the sigular exception to this well known and industry-practiced rule?

Here is an excellent article on the phenomenon, well known and described, with over 300 studies cited in its bibliography to form its conclusions:

http://www.pphp.concordia.ca/fac/pfaus/Pfaus-Kippin-Centeno(2001).pdf

Conditioning and Sexual Behavior: A Review

James G. Pfaus,1 Tod E. Kippin, and Soraya Centeno
Center for Studies in Behavioral Neurobiology, Department of Psychology, Concordia
University, 1455 deMaisonneuve Bldg. W., Montre´al, Que´bec, H3G 1M8 Canada

 

[Pop23]

It's well established that homosexuality is not genetically determined. There is something else. Probably a chemical imbalance in the brain. That might explain homosexuals' greater incidence of violence, STDs, and suicide.

And that chemical imbalance could not be a result of genetics?

I'll think on that a bit more the next time I stay at a Holiday Inn Express