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Median income. What is the median income for Brookline MA? I dont live in Jackson MS and you don’t get to decide what is and isn’t a necessity.1) We are talking about the US. Show one model where more than 1% of the population dies.1) and? Not one expert model has the death rate above 2.2mil. You’re spinning your wheels.Not the same. People were free to live and innovate. Sports were abundant and concerts. Family gatherings, etc. You want to shut all that down. That is extreme crazy talk to save those who are fat and unhealthy. Why can they not stay isolated and allow the rest of us to live?Because you're only delaying the inevitable. You can get the virus now or 6 months from now.At a cost to Sweden so far of 192 deaths/million population compared to the US at 144/million.Protect the vulnerable, develop the herd immunity. Only way out and has been from the beginning.
Sweden resisted a lockdown, and its capital Stockholm is expected to reach 'herd immunity' in weeks
Sweden went against the grain by keeping public life as unrestricted as possible when the coronavirus hit. Now, it says its strategy appears to be working.www.cnbc.com
Meanwhile we're arresting people in parks and hiding like rats and it is, of course, way more widespread than people thought, even with all of these measures here.
So, are you volunteering to get infected?
Yes and they'll be largely done while we are still hiding and trying to stop something we cannot, while our death toll will likely be spread over a longer time period as we have multiple waves of this.
And spare me the BS leading question/false choice nonsense. I've been working right through this with very few changes in my life and nobody, including Sweden, is advocating not taking reasonable precautions. This is NOT an either or choice between total lockdown and slobbering all over each other at every opportunity while making no effort to slow transmission and protect the vulnerable- and never has been.
And the point is, for those too myopic to realize this, that there are other strategies out there that have been employed, and other nations that are further along the timeline than we are. As those results start to become available it makes sense and is necessary to assess them to determine the best path forward for us.
Which country has the best results in protecting it population from coronavirus? The Answer TAIWAN! Only 6 deaths in TAIWAN. TAIWAN is the gold standard in protecting its population. Trump's failure is measured by the number of deaths Taiwan has vs. the United States.
Sweden has the 9th highest death rate per capita in the world from coronavirus. Why would anyone follow that example for protecting its population. There are only 8 other countries that are dying at a greater rate than Sweden from coronavirus.
Well, then your claiming that its inevitable that 5 million Americans will die from the virus and we should not do anything.
South Korea is a country of 50 million people, but has less than 11,000 infections. Tell me, when will the other 49,989,000 people get the virus?
TAIWAN is a country of 24 million people with only 429 infections. Tell me when the other 23,999,571 people will be getting the virus in TAIWAN? Realize TAIWAN often goes several days without any new infections at all. Today, the whole country had ONE new infection.
Did everyone get the 1918 Spanish Flu? NOPE. Did the few cities that practiced social distancing and shutdown business's suffer less death and illness? YEP!
NOTHING is inevitable when it comes to a virus and societies fight against it. People can make a difference and save lives through their actions. That was the lesson of the 1918 pandemic!
This is not an either-or scenario.
I know you want to run around with your hair perpetually on fire and think the entire nation should hide until the advent of some medical advance that frees us from bondage.
The rest of us would rather plan an actual way out of this mess. If that is reasonable social distancing, protecting the at risk and managing spikes, more widespread antibody testing, fine and I think that's where we are headed.
No matter what, there will be risks. Everyone acknowledges that there is no safe path and it sucks. States are already running out of money and we're a couple of months in. Thats only going to get worse, not better, until we take a step back and reassess based on what we are learning here and from other countries that have adapted different strategies and adapt an approach here that gets people back to work as soon as possible while protecting the vulnerable to the greatest degree possible.
I don't think you realize how much of the population in the United States is vulnerable. 40% of the U.S. population is obese. Nearly 50% have hypertension or pre-hypertension which is another underlying risk factor.
The lockdown economic damage is minimal compared to the death and destruction that would be caused by letting the virus run rampant. There is NO MIDDLEGROUND! The virus is like a FIRE, it needs oxygen to survive. The oxygen in this case is PEOPLE. You kill this thing by keeping people ISOLATED from each other.
You can lockdown for 3 years or 5 years if needed, the economic damage would be minimal and repairable compared to say being NUKED. Hiroshima was nuked on August 6, 1945, but the city was fully rebuilt by 1958 and had a larger population in 1958 than in 1945.
The economic damage is bad, but its certainly not as bad as what Hiroshima went through. The economic damage can be repaired. But you can't bring someone back to life who has died from covid-19.
In terms of protecting the vulnerable, we have already failed to protect old people in nursing homes. The loss of life in nursing homes has been terrible. You risk killing more vulnerable people by reopening and will only bring another lockdown within a couple of months.
The vast majority of Americans support the lockdown. Most Americans are also not going to suddenly become customers at these non-essential business's you want to reopen. Consumers will not come out to spend until it is SAFE. So opening your business won't solve the economic problem. In fact, it may just put people further in the hole. The cost of opening up but getting no customers for business would be a WORSE situation than staying locked down.
Sure, lets lockdown for 3-5 years.
Totally feasible, and your supporting argument is that a city rebuilt after an atomic bomb detonation.
I honestly have nothing to say to that that wouldn't be so downright dickish that your ancestors would be insulted, so I think I'll pass. Go right ahead and believe that if you'd like.
Look at Germany and Japan in 1945. Nearly every city destroyed, millions dead. Yet, both countries recovered from those tragedies by 1960.
Is the devastation of 3 years under lockdown get you to the place where Germany and Japan were in the Summer of 1945? Not even close.
37% of the labor force is able to work from home. 25% of the labor force is engaged in essential services. So a little over 60% of the labor force is still at work under this lockdown.
Sure, let's truck along with a higher unemployment rate than the great depression for 3-5 years. It'll be fine.
The UN is already warning that hundreds of thousands of children may die THIS YEAR because of the economic downturn. Lets extend to 5 and see how many we can rack up, cause Hiroshima rebuilt. M'kay.
I don't know where you come up with this silly crap, but, again believe it if you like.
Do you even understand what happened to Germany and Japan in World War II? Do you understand where both countries were at in the summer of 1945. If Germany and Japan can survive and rebuild from the state they were in, in 1945, a United States lockdown where 60% of the population is still working will be a picnic by comparison.
You can repair the economic damage. You can't bring someone back to life who has physically died of covid-19. Most Americans understand that and that's why most Americans agree with ME, rather than YOU.
40% of the American population is obese. Then there are those who are not obese who have other conditions. Bottom line, most of the population is NOT SAFE!
People can still live an innovate from home. In fact, 37% of the labor force is able to do their current job without leaving their house. Another 25% are engaged in "Essential Services". For the 1/3 of the labor force that is not working, they can be paid to stay at home, just like the government paid 1/3 of the labor force in the 1940s to go overseas and kill Germans and Japs.
Lockdown is necessary. The damage done is repairable. Innovation is actually happening more rapidly right now than at any time in the past 20 years. Bars, nightclubs, Church, concerts, sporting events, will have to wait maybe a few years while this passes on. All those things will eventually return though. The economy will evolve and change during this time as well. As a society, we will most likely be better off once we get through this pandemic.
#1) Link that most is not safe. LOL. 94% of deaths are to those who had at least one underlying condition.
#2) Really? Barber shops, gyms, NBA, NFL, NCAA sports, NHL, PGA, MLB --- you want to shut it all down for 5 years. Taxation would decline significantly and no more police and or fire. No more movies, sitcoms, etc. Concerts. You basically end the world to save a few people who would die anyway.
#3) Lockdown is necessary not to overwhelm the healthcare system. We have built up enough capacity to handle it.
#4) Your lack of logic is comical. I'll start the thread so people can mock you.
1. 40% of Americans are obese. That is JUST ONE underlying condition that puts people at greater risk for complications from covid-19. If you understand math, you'll realize more than 50% of Americans are at risk. 17% of the U.S. population, 56 million Americans, are age 65 and over.
2. You shut non-essential business down until the number of new cases is low enough to contain through contact tracing OR you develop a vaccine. IF that is 2 years or 3 years, you do what you have to do, because the pathogen threatens the health of everyone and threatens the economy too. Consumers won't be buying and spending time at these non-essential business's if they feel its not safe. No one wants to risk getting sick or dying just to go to a bar or football game.
3. Most of the people employed in these jobs at gyms, barber shops, sports venues don't make enough money to even pay federal tax. In any event they only account for 1/3 of the workforce. During World War II, the United States sent 1/3 of the labor force overseas to kill Germans and Japs for years. We can pay people to stay in their homes to win the war against coronavirus. In addition, during this lockdown, 60% of the labor force is still working, because 37% can work from home and 25% work in essential services. Your keeping 1/3 of the labor force off the job to save the lives of millions of people. Its more than worth and is the only way back to a healthy economy as well.
4. The lockdown is about limiting the spread of the virus so it can eventually be contained through contact tracing methods, or a vaccine is finally developed. Naturally you don't want the healthcare system to be overwhelmed, but the primary goal is defeating the pandemic, not just dealing with it.
5. Well, I guess that means your still in the 8th grade. Most 8th graders would not even engage in such behavior.
2) Take out NYC and this virus is a typical flu. NYC handled this poorly. Why? We don’t know.
3) Lack of business acumen. People who own gyms and barber shops do very well. Take a business class. Your WW2 comparison is stupid.
4) Why would you limit a spread of a virus in Utah where they have fewer than 1k cases? Country can open up sans NYC.
5) I wish. It would mean I was very young. You don’t know much about the world, have zero business acumen and don’t understand math. Take an online business class since you’re home.
1. Its not just one expert model, its most models done for most countries around the world which is why lockdown is the strategy rather than going for herd immunity. Most health experts on pandemics support the lockdowns, both in this country and in 99% of countries on the planet.
2. NYC is just the first to be hit more heavily by coronavirus due to it being a the worlds largest travel hub and one of the most densely populated areas in the world. Had Trump closed the borders and banned all foreign travel in January like Taiwan did, we wouldn't be in this mess. The rest of the country which have less coronavirus cases benefit from being less traveled, having less density, and less cases at the time most lockdowns were put in place.
3. People who own gyms and barber shops do well, but most people who work at gyms and barber shops don't make enough money to pay federal tax. As far as World War II, its just an example of both terrible devastation as well as transformation of the economy and mobilizing it to do something complete different. The comparison is solid even if you don't understand it.
4. It only takes one person to infect and kill thousands without proper testing, contact tracing and isolation of the infected and potentially infected. You can only open up and area if the number of new cases is small enough to manage through testing, contact tracing and isolation of known cases and people who are potentially infected. Without those tools to deal with the pandemic, a 1,000 cases can turn into 100,000 cases in days or weeks.
5. More 8th grade rubbish. If your an adult, act like one and discuss the topic and not other posters.
2) LAX is huge and they have a fraction of the cases? Tokyo does too. How do you explain that?
3) So you want to close every barber shop and gym? How about hair salons? My wife pays $250 per haircut and such. Her hair dresser easily cleared $150k per yr. Again you show your lack of business acumen.
4) Kill 1000s LOL. Same is true for the Flu. Why don’t we social distance and lockdown every flu season?
1. Any model that predicts deaths beyond August of 2020 would see deaths cross well above 3 million going over 1% of the population. Sorry, but its not ok to murder 3 million people to save the business of your wife's hairdresser.
2. Japan blocked and restricted all foreign travel, while the United States did not. That's why Japan and Tokyo's numbers are low. That acted early and now enjoy the benefits of that early action. LAX and Los Angeles county are not as large a travel hub as New York City. There were travel bans on China and more concern early on in California than in New York. New York State got its coronavirus cases from people traveling from Europe. New York City does far more travel and business with Europe than Los Angeles does. It was more exposed to the virus coming in from Europe and there were no restrictions. Population density of New York City is much greater than LA County.
3. They are already closed. Even Trump approves their closure. A $250 dollar haircut is a luxury. Its not necessary for survival. I value people's lives of your wife's $250 dollar haircut. If your wife's Hairdresser makes $150,000 a year, she already has a personal income greater than 97% of people in the country. Median Household income United States is only $63,000 a year, and that often includes combined income from two or three people. Your wife's hairdresser will be just fine, provided they are not an idiot with their money.
4. There is no comparison between coronavirus and the flu:
1. There is vaccine every year for the seasonal flu, and if everyone got the flu shot, you would cut the death rate by 90%
2. Coronavirus has a death rate that is 50 times higher than seasonal flu.
3. Coronavirus is more transmissible than seasonal flu.
