Lockdowns Did Not Work

[U2Edge]

4) Kill 1000s LOL. Same is true for the Flu. Why don’t we social distance and lockdown every flu season?

You're still trying to compare this to the flu?

Flu season wipes out an average of 1,330 people in New Jersey each year. Covid-19 killed more than that in New Jersey in the last 5 days.

The reason for the different reaction between flu and coronavirus is obviously due to the differences in potential death rates.

Typical flu season 30-50k die. Take out NYC, which is an outlier we have the same for this. 94% had at least one underlying condition. Keep those at risk home and open it up for the rest of us. Not my fault some people are weak. I had COVID-19. Flu is much worse.

40% of the U.S. population is obese. That's one of the underlying conditions.

Whose fault is that? You obese? Eat less.

That's not the point. You were trying to say most of the population was "SAFE". I was simply pointing out that's not really the case.

Don’t force me to live in isolation because you’re fat. Open it up and faT people can sit home.

You can't say you've opened up if 40% of the population is sitting at home because their obese. A lot of these people don't even realize they are obese and overweight.

Isolating people is not just about protecting their health, its also about depriving the virus of the oxygen it needs to continue spreading. Even if your not at risks for health complications from the virus, the virus can use you as a way to be spread to other people it can kill.

You’re just prolonging the inevitable. People are still going to stores and gas stations. This is not a true lockdown.

Getting Gas is not a prime spot for virus spread. The pumps are nicely spread out and can only handle so many cars at a time. People a driving less and don't need to fill up as often as well. Essential stores are open, but many have restrictions in place to prevent spread.

People are touching the same pump over and over again. Durrr. What restrictions? I walked In and grabbed an ice tea. People were grabbing chips and such and have no idea who touched those chips before them. You’re lying again. Answer me. What state do you live in?

Most of the infections come from being near people, rather than touching the same things they touch. It comes from breathing in very tiny droplets. Rarely does it come from touching a surface and then touching your face. The church group in Seattle practiced social distancing at their practice but it was 60 of them in the same room. It did not matter that no one touched each other and everyone cleaned their hands. They were all breathing close to one another and that was how it spread to 45 of the 60 people there. Most people are getting infected by breathing in tiny droplets.

 

[U2Edge]

Protect the vulnerable, develop the herd immunity. Only way out and has been from the beginning.

Sweden resisted a lockdown, and its capital Stockholm is expected to reach 'herd immunity' in weeks

Sweden went against the grain by keeping public life as unrestricted as possible when the coronavirus hit. Now, it says its strategy appears to be working.

www.cnbc.com

Meanwhile we're arresting people in parks and hiding like rats and it is, of course, way more widespread than people thought, even with all of these measures here.

At a cost to Sweden so far of 192 deaths/million population compared to the US at 144/million.
So, are you volunteering to get infected?

Yes and they'll be largely done while we are still hiding and trying to stop something we cannot, while our death toll will likely be spread over a longer time period as we have multiple waves of this.

And spare me the BS leading question/false choice nonsense. I've been working right through this with very few changes in my life and nobody, including Sweden, is advocating not taking reasonable precautions. This is NOT an either or choice between total lockdown and slobbering all over each other at every opportunity while making no effort to slow transmission and protect the vulnerable- and never has been.

And the point is, for those too myopic to realize this, that there are other strategies out there that have been employed, and other nations that are further along the timeline than we are. As those results start to become available it makes sense and is necessary to assess them to determine the best path forward for us.

Which country has the best results in protecting it population from coronavirus? The Answer TAIWAN! Only 6 deaths in TAIWAN. TAIWAN is the gold standard in protecting its population. Trump's failure is measured by the number of deaths Taiwan has vs. the United States.

Sweden has the 9th highest death rate per capita in the world from coronavirus. Why would anyone follow that example for protecting its population. There are only 8 other countries that are dying at a greater rate than Sweden from coronavirus.

Because you're only delaying the inevitable. You can get the virus now or 6 months from now.

Well, then your claiming that its inevitable that 5 million Americans will die from the virus and we should not do anything.

South Korea is a country of 50 million people, but has less than 11,000 infections. Tell me, when will the other 49,989,000 people get the virus?

TAIWAN is a country of 24 million people with only 429 infections. Tell me when the other 23,999,571 people will be getting the virus in TAIWAN? Realize TAIWAN often goes several days without any new infections at all. Today, the whole country had ONE new infection.

Did everyone get the 1918 Spanish Flu? NOPE. Did the few cities that practiced social distancing and shutdown business's suffer less death and illness? YEP!

NOTHING is inevitable when it comes to a virus and societies fight against it. People can make a difference and save lives through their actions. That was the lesson of the 1918 pandemic!

This is not an either-or scenario.

I know you want to run around with your hair perpetually on fire and think the entire nation should hide until the advent of some medical advance that frees us from bondage.

The rest of us would rather plan an actual way out of this mess. If that is reasonable social distancing, protecting the at risk and managing spikes, more widespread antibody testing, fine and I think that's where we are headed.

No matter what, there will be risks. Everyone acknowledges that there is no safe path and it sucks. States are already running out of money and we're a couple of months in. Thats only going to get worse, not better, until we take a step back and reassess based on what we are learning here and from other countries that have adapted different strategies and adapt an approach here that gets people back to work as soon as possible while protecting the vulnerable to the greatest degree possible.

I don't think you realize how much of the population in the United States is vulnerable. 40% of the U.S. population is obese. Nearly 50% have hypertension or pre-hypertension which is another underlying risk factor.

The lockdown economic damage is minimal compared to the death and destruction that would be caused by letting the virus run rampant. There is NO MIDDLEGROUND! The virus is like a FIRE, it needs oxygen to survive. The oxygen in this case is PEOPLE. You kill this thing by keeping people ISOLATED from each other.

You can lockdown for 3 years or 5 years if needed, the economic damage would be minimal and repairable compared to say being NUKED. Hiroshima was nuked on August 6, 1945, but the city was fully rebuilt by 1958 and had a larger population in 1958 than in 1945.

The economic damage is bad, but its certainly not as bad as what Hiroshima went through. The economic damage can be repaired. But you can't bring someone back to life who has died from covid-19.

In terms of protecting the vulnerable, we have already failed to protect old people in nursing homes. The loss of life in nursing homes has been terrible. You risk killing more vulnerable people by reopening and will only bring another lockdown within a couple of months.

The vast majority of Americans support the lockdown. Most Americans are also not going to suddenly become customers at these non-essential business's you want to reopen. Consumers will not come out to spend until it is SAFE. So opening your business won't solve the economic problem. In fact, it may just put people further in the hole. The cost of opening up but getting no customers for business would be a WORSE situation than staying locked down.

Sure, lets lockdown for 3-5 years.

Totally feasible, and your supporting argument is that a city rebuilt after an atomic bomb detonation.

I honestly have nothing to say to that that wouldn't be so downright dickish that your ancestors would be insulted, so I think I'll pass. Go right ahead and believe that if you'd like.

Look at Germany and Japan in 1945. Nearly every city destroyed, millions dead. Yet, both countries recovered from those tragedies by 1960.

Is the devastation of 3 years under lockdown get you to the place where Germany and Japan were in the Summer of 1945? Not even close.

37% of the labor force is able to work from home. 25% of the labor force is engaged in essential services. So a little over 60% of the labor force is still at work under this lockdown.

Sure, let's truck along with a higher unemployment rate than the great depression for 3-5 years. It'll be fine.

The UN is already warning that hundreds of thousands of children may die THIS YEAR because of the economic downturn. Lets extend to 5 and see how many we can rack up, cause Hiroshima rebuilt. M'kay.

I don't know where you come up with this silly crap, but, again believe it if you like.

Do you even understand what happened to Germany and Japan in World War II? Do you understand where both countries were at in the summer of 1945. If Germany and Japan can survive and rebuild from the state they were in, in 1945, a United States lockdown where 60% of the population is still working will be a picnic by comparison.

You can repair the economic damage. You can't bring someone back to life who has physically died of covid-19. Most Americans understand that and that's why most Americans agree with ME, rather than YOU.

Not the same. People were free to live and innovate. Sports were abundant and concerts. Family gatherings, etc. You want to shut all that down. That is extreme crazy talk to save those who are fat and unhealthy. Why can they not stay isolated and allow the rest of us to live?

40% of the American population is obese. Then there are those who are not obese who have other conditions. Bottom line, most of the population is NOT SAFE!

People can still live an innovate from home. In fact, 37% of the labor force is able to do their current job without leaving their house. Another 25% are engaged in "Essential Services". For the 1/3 of the labor force that is not working, they can be paid to stay at home, just like the government paid 1/3 of the labor force in the 1940s to go overseas and kill Germans and Japs.

Lockdown is necessary. The damage done is repairable. Innovation is actually happening more rapidly right now than at any time in the past 20 years. Bars, nightclubs, Church, concerts, sporting events, will have to wait maybe a few years while this passes on. All those things will eventually return though. The economy will evolve and change during this time as well. As a society, we will most likely be better off once we get through this pandemic.

#1) Link that most is not safe. LOL. 94% of deaths are to those who had at least one underlying condition.

#2) Really? Barber shops, gyms, NBA, NFL, NCAA sports, NHL, PGA, MLB --- you want to shut it all down for 5 years. Taxation would decline significantly and no more police and or fire. No more movies, sitcoms, etc. Concerts. You basically end the world to save a few people who would die anyway.

#3) Lockdown is necessary not to overwhelm the healthcare system. We have built up enough capacity to handle it.

#4) Your lack of logic is comical. I'll start the thread so people can mock you.

1. 40% of Americans are obese. That is JUST ONE underlying condition that puts people at greater risk for complications from covid-19. If you understand math, you'll realize more than 50% of Americans are at risk. 17% of the U.S. population, 56 million Americans, are age 65 and over.

2. You shut non-essential business down until the number of new cases is low enough to contain through contact tracing OR you develop a vaccine. IF that is 2 years or 3 years, you do what you have to do, because the pathogen threatens the health of everyone and threatens the economy too. Consumers won't be buying and spending time at these non-essential business's if they feel its not safe. No one wants to risk getting sick or dying just to go to a bar or football game.

3. Most of the people employed in these jobs at gyms, barber shops, sports venues don't make enough money to even pay federal tax. In any event they only account for 1/3 of the workforce. During World War II, the United States sent 1/3 of the labor force overseas to kill Germans and Japs for years. We can pay people to stay in their homes to win the war against coronavirus. In addition, during this lockdown, 60% of the labor force is still working, because 37% can work from home and 25% work in essential services. Your keeping 1/3 of the labor force off the job to save the lives of millions of people. Its more than worth and is the only way back to a healthy economy as well.

4. The lockdown is about limiting the spread of the virus so it can eventually be contained through contact tracing methods, or a vaccine is finally developed. Naturally you don't want the healthcare system to be overwhelmed, but the primary goal is defeating the pandemic, not just dealing with it.

5. Well, I guess that means your still in the 8th grade. Most 8th graders would not even engage in such behavior.

1) and? Not one expert model has the death rate above 2.2mil. You’re spinning your wheels.

2) Take out NYC and this virus is a typical flu. NYC handled this poorly. Why? We don’t know.

3) Lack of business acumen. People who own gyms and barber shops do very well. Take a business class. Your WW2 comparison is stupid.

4) Why would you limit a spread of a virus in Utah where they have fewer than 1k cases? Country can open up sans NYC.

5) I wish. It would mean I was very young. You don’t know much about the world, have zero business acumen and don’t understand math. Take an online business class since you’re home.

1. Its not just one expert model, its most models done for most countries around the world which is why lockdown is the strategy rather than going for herd immunity. Most health experts on pandemics support the lockdowns, both in this country and in 99% of countries on the planet.

2. NYC is just the first to be hit more heavily by coronavirus due to it being a the worlds largest travel hub and one of the most densely populated areas in the world. Had Trump closed the borders and banned all foreign travel in January like Taiwan did, we wouldn't be in this mess. The rest of the country which have less coronavirus cases benefit from being less traveled, having less density, and less cases at the time most lockdowns were put in place.

3. People who own gyms and barber shops do well, but most people who work at gyms and barber shops don't make enough money to pay federal tax. As far as World War II, its just an example of both terrible devastation as well as transformation of the economy and mobilizing it to do something complete different. The comparison is solid even if you don't understand it.

4. It only takes one person to infect and kill thousands without proper testing, contact tracing and isolation of the infected and potentially infected. You can only open up and area if the number of new cases is small enough to manage through testing, contact tracing and isolation of known cases and people who are potentially infected. Without those tools to deal with the pandemic, a 1,000 cases can turn into 100,000 cases in days or weeks.

5. More 8th grade rubbish. If your an adult, act like one and discuss the topic and not other posters.

1) We are talking about the US. Show one model where more than 1% of the population dies.

2) LAX is huge and they have a fraction of the cases? Tokyo does too. How do you explain that?

3) So you want to close every barber shop and gym? How about hair salons? My wife pays $250 per haircut and such. Her hair dresser easily cleared $150k per yr. Again you show your lack of business acumen.

4) Kill 1000s LOL. Same is true for the Flu. Why don’t we social distance and lockdown every flu season?

1. Any model that predicts deaths beyond August of 2020 would see deaths cross well above 3 million going over 1% of the population. Sorry, but its not ok to murder 3 million people to save the business of your wife's hairdresser.

2. Japan blocked and restricted all foreign travel, while the United States did not. That's why Japan and Tokyo's numbers are low. That acted early and now enjoy the benefits of that early action. LAX and Los Angeles county are not as large a travel hub as New York City. There were travel bans on China and more concern early on in California than in New York. New York State got its coronavirus cases from people traveling from Europe. New York City does far more travel and business with Europe than Los Angeles does. It was more exposed to the virus coming in from Europe and there were no restrictions. Population density of New York City is much greater than LA County.

3. They are already closed. Even Trump approves their closure. A $250 dollar haircut is a luxury. Its not necessary for survival. I value people's lives of your wife's $250 dollar haircut. If your wife's Hairdresser makes $150,000 a year, she already has a personal income greater than 97% of people in the country. Median Household income United States is only $63,000 a year, and that often includes combined income from two or three people. Your wife's hairdresser will be just fine, provided they are not an idiot with their money.

4. There is no comparison between coronavirus and the flu:
1. There is vaccine every year for the seasonal flu, and if everyone got the flu shot, you would cut the death rate by 90%
2. Coronavirus has a death rate that is 50 times higher than seasonal flu.
3. Coronavirus is more transmissible than seasonal flu.

Median income. What is the median income for Brookline MA? I dont live in Jackson MS and you don’t get to decide what is and isn’t a necessity.

I know most people in Massachusetts support the lockdown and won't be voting for Trump in November. We decide as a democracy what is or is not a necessity. The supporters of lockdown outnumber the supporters of open up.

Yep. Most taxpayers and educated people will vote for Trump so there is that. Our Governor is a Republican. And most don’t support the lockdown.

Well, then I guess the protest against the lockdown are alive and well in Massachusetts. I guess the bars and restaurants in Boston are packed. Did they have the St. Patrick's Day parade this year?

LOL. Give it time. Lockdown started around St Pattys. People are getting anxious. You wait and see.

Oh, I've got my eye on Massachusetts. I'm waiting to see this Trump wave demand a massive opening there. Don't think its going to happen until people feel its SAFE, logical and based on SCIENCE, to open up, instead of based on someone's non-essential business.

Trump said it was up to the governors. You’re just making shit up now as Leftists tend to do.

Its not really up to the governors. Its up to consumers. You can open up a movie theater, but you can't force people to go and buy a ticket and watch a movie in a crowded theater where the spread of the virus would be easy.

Consumers are dying to go. It is up to the governors. Again where do you live? Why avoid the question? LOL

Well, then, we'll see how the experiment in Georgia goes. I guess all the non-essential business's will be filled with customers next week in Georgia.

Yep. People want to live.

California heat wave draws large crowds to beaches despite stay-at-home order

"We've had very good compliance," a lifeguard said. "People are spreading out."

www.google.com

It was only in Orange County, beaches in other more populated areas like LA County are closed.

You missed the point. People flocked to the open ones. Last time I ask. Where do you live? You don’t answer we are done.

If that were the case it would have been impossible to maintain social distancing on the beaches. The overwhelming majority of people in South California did not go to the Orange county beaches.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

4) Kill 1000s LOL. Same is true for the Flu. Why don’t we social distance and lockdown every flu season?

You're still trying to compare this to the flu?

Flu season wipes out an average of 1,330 people in New Jersey each year. Covid-19 killed more than that in New Jersey in the last 5 days.

The reason for the different reaction between flu and coronavirus is obviously due to the differences in potential death rates.

Typical flu season 30-50k die. Take out NYC, which is an outlier we have the same for this. 94% had at least one underlying condition. Keep those at risk home and open it up for the rest of us. Not my fault some people are weak. I had COVID-19. Flu is much worse.

40% of the U.S. population is obese. That's one of the underlying conditions.

Whose fault is that? You obese? Eat less.

That's not the point. You were trying to say most of the population was "SAFE". I was simply pointing out that's not really the case.

Don’t force me to live in isolation because you’re fat. Open it up and faT people can sit home.

You can't say you've opened up if 40% of the population is sitting at home because their obese. A lot of these people don't even realize they are obese and overweight.

Isolating people is not just about protecting their health, its also about depriving the virus of the oxygen it needs to continue spreading. Even if your not at risks for health complications from the virus, the virus can use you as a way to be spread to other people it can kill.

You’re just prolonging the inevitable. People are still going to stores and gas stations. This is not a true lockdown.

Getting Gas is not a prime spot for virus spread. The pumps are nicely spread out and can only handle so many cars at a time. People a driving less and don't need to fill up as often as well. Essential stores are open, but many have restrictions in place to prevent spread.

People are touching the same pump over and over again. Durrr. What restrictions? I walked In and grabbed an ice tea. People were grabbing chips and such and have no idea who touched those chips before them. You’re lying again. Answer me. What state do you live in?

Most of the infections come from being near people, rather than touching the same things they touch. It comes from breathing in very tiny droplets. Rarely does it come from touching a surface and then touching your face. The church group in Seattle practiced social distancing at their practice but it was 60 of them in the same room. It did not matter that no one touched each other and everyone cleaned their hands. They were all breathing close to one another and that was how it spread to 45 of the 60 people there. Most people are getting infected by breathing in tiny droplets.

You’re a liar. You don’t answer questions. You need to be hospitalized. Get help soon.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Protect the vulnerable, develop the herd immunity. Only way out and has been from the beginning.

Sweden resisted a lockdown, and its capital Stockholm is expected to reach 'herd immunity' in weeks

Sweden went against the grain by keeping public life as unrestricted as possible when the coronavirus hit. Now, it says its strategy appears to be working.

www.cnbc.com

Meanwhile we're arresting people in parks and hiding like rats and it is, of course, way more widespread than people thought, even with all of these measures here.

At a cost to Sweden so far of 192 deaths/million population compared to the US at 144/million.
So, are you volunteering to get infected?

Yes and they'll be largely done while we are still hiding and trying to stop something we cannot, while our death toll will likely be spread over a longer time period as we have multiple waves of this.

And spare me the BS leading question/false choice nonsense. I've been working right through this with very few changes in my life and nobody, including Sweden, is advocating not taking reasonable precautions. This is NOT an either or choice between total lockdown and slobbering all over each other at every opportunity while making no effort to slow transmission and protect the vulnerable- and never has been.

And the point is, for those too myopic to realize this, that there are other strategies out there that have been employed, and other nations that are further along the timeline than we are. As those results start to become available it makes sense and is necessary to assess them to determine the best path forward for us.

Which country has the best results in protecting it population from coronavirus? The Answer TAIWAN! Only 6 deaths in TAIWAN. TAIWAN is the gold standard in protecting its population. Trump's failure is measured by the number of deaths Taiwan has vs. the United States.

Sweden has the 9th highest death rate per capita in the world from coronavirus. Why would anyone follow that example for protecting its population. There are only 8 other countries that are dying at a greater rate than Sweden from coronavirus.

Because you're only delaying the inevitable. You can get the virus now or 6 months from now.

Well, then your claiming that its inevitable that 5 million Americans will die from the virus and we should not do anything.

South Korea is a country of 50 million people, but has less than 11,000 infections. Tell me, when will the other 49,989,000 people get the virus?

TAIWAN is a country of 24 million people with only 429 infections. Tell me when the other 23,999,571 people will be getting the virus in TAIWAN? Realize TAIWAN often goes several days without any new infections at all. Today, the whole country had ONE new infection.

Did everyone get the 1918 Spanish Flu? NOPE. Did the few cities that practiced social distancing and shutdown business's suffer less death and illness? YEP!

NOTHING is inevitable when it comes to a virus and societies fight against it. People can make a difference and save lives through their actions. That was the lesson of the 1918 pandemic!

This is not an either-or scenario.

I know you want to run around with your hair perpetually on fire and think the entire nation should hide until the advent of some medical advance that frees us from bondage.

The rest of us would rather plan an actual way out of this mess. If that is reasonable social distancing, protecting the at risk and managing spikes, more widespread antibody testing, fine and I think that's where we are headed.

No matter what, there will be risks. Everyone acknowledges that there is no safe path and it sucks. States are already running out of money and we're a couple of months in. Thats only going to get worse, not better, until we take a step back and reassess based on what we are learning here and from other countries that have adapted different strategies and adapt an approach here that gets people back to work as soon as possible while protecting the vulnerable to the greatest degree possible.

I don't think you realize how much of the population in the United States is vulnerable. 40% of the U.S. population is obese. Nearly 50% have hypertension or pre-hypertension which is another underlying risk factor.

The lockdown economic damage is minimal compared to the death and destruction that would be caused by letting the virus run rampant. There is NO MIDDLEGROUND! The virus is like a FIRE, it needs oxygen to survive. The oxygen in this case is PEOPLE. You kill this thing by keeping people ISOLATED from each other.

You can lockdown for 3 years or 5 years if needed, the economic damage would be minimal and repairable compared to say being NUKED. Hiroshima was nuked on August 6, 1945, but the city was fully rebuilt by 1958 and had a larger population in 1958 than in 1945.

The economic damage is bad, but its certainly not as bad as what Hiroshima went through. The economic damage can be repaired. But you can't bring someone back to life who has died from covid-19.

In terms of protecting the vulnerable, we have already failed to protect old people in nursing homes. The loss of life in nursing homes has been terrible. You risk killing more vulnerable people by reopening and will only bring another lockdown within a couple of months.

The vast majority of Americans support the lockdown. Most Americans are also not going to suddenly become customers at these non-essential business's you want to reopen. Consumers will not come out to spend until it is SAFE. So opening your business won't solve the economic problem. In fact, it may just put people further in the hole. The cost of opening up but getting no customers for business would be a WORSE situation than staying locked down.

Sure, lets lockdown for 3-5 years.

Totally feasible, and your supporting argument is that a city rebuilt after an atomic bomb detonation.

I honestly have nothing to say to that that wouldn't be so downright dickish that your ancestors would be insulted, so I think I'll pass. Go right ahead and believe that if you'd like.

Look at Germany and Japan in 1945. Nearly every city destroyed, millions dead. Yet, both countries recovered from those tragedies by 1960.

Is the devastation of 3 years under lockdown get you to the place where Germany and Japan were in the Summer of 1945? Not even close.

37% of the labor force is able to work from home. 25% of the labor force is engaged in essential services. So a little over 60% of the labor force is still at work under this lockdown.

Sure, let's truck along with a higher unemployment rate than the great depression for 3-5 years. It'll be fine.

The UN is already warning that hundreds of thousands of children may die THIS YEAR because of the economic downturn. Lets extend to 5 and see how many we can rack up, cause Hiroshima rebuilt. M'kay.

I don't know where you come up with this silly crap, but, again believe it if you like.

Do you even understand what happened to Germany and Japan in World War II? Do you understand where both countries were at in the summer of 1945. If Germany and Japan can survive and rebuild from the state they were in, in 1945, a United States lockdown where 60% of the population is still working will be a picnic by comparison.

You can repair the economic damage. You can't bring someone back to life who has physically died of covid-19. Most Americans understand that and that's why most Americans agree with ME, rather than YOU.

Not the same. People were free to live and innovate. Sports were abundant and concerts. Family gatherings, etc. You want to shut all that down. That is extreme crazy talk to save those who are fat and unhealthy. Why can they not stay isolated and allow the rest of us to live?

40% of the American population is obese. Then there are those who are not obese who have other conditions. Bottom line, most of the population is NOT SAFE!

People can still live an innovate from home. In fact, 37% of the labor force is able to do their current job without leaving their house. Another 25% are engaged in "Essential Services". For the 1/3 of the labor force that is not working, they can be paid to stay at home, just like the government paid 1/3 of the labor force in the 1940s to go overseas and kill Germans and Japs.

Lockdown is necessary. The damage done is repairable. Innovation is actually happening more rapidly right now than at any time in the past 20 years. Bars, nightclubs, Church, concerts, sporting events, will have to wait maybe a few years while this passes on. All those things will eventually return though. The economy will evolve and change during this time as well. As a society, we will most likely be better off once we get through this pandemic.

#1) Link that most is not safe. LOL. 94% of deaths are to those who had at least one underlying condition.

#2) Really? Barber shops, gyms, NBA, NFL, NCAA sports, NHL, PGA, MLB --- you want to shut it all down for 5 years. Taxation would decline significantly and no more police and or fire. No more movies, sitcoms, etc. Concerts. You basically end the world to save a few people who would die anyway.

#3) Lockdown is necessary not to overwhelm the healthcare system. We have built up enough capacity to handle it.

#4) Your lack of logic is comical. I'll start the thread so people can mock you.

1. 40% of Americans are obese. That is JUST ONE underlying condition that puts people at greater risk for complications from covid-19. If you understand math, you'll realize more than 50% of Americans are at risk. 17% of the U.S. population, 56 million Americans, are age 65 and over.

2. You shut non-essential business down until the number of new cases is low enough to contain through contact tracing OR you develop a vaccine. IF that is 2 years or 3 years, you do what you have to do, because the pathogen threatens the health of everyone and threatens the economy too. Consumers won't be buying and spending time at these non-essential business's if they feel its not safe. No one wants to risk getting sick or dying just to go to a bar or football game.

3. Most of the people employed in these jobs at gyms, barber shops, sports venues don't make enough money to even pay federal tax. In any event they only account for 1/3 of the workforce. During World War II, the United States sent 1/3 of the labor force overseas to kill Germans and Japs for years. We can pay people to stay in their homes to win the war against coronavirus. In addition, during this lockdown, 60% of the labor force is still working, because 37% can work from home and 25% work in essential services. Your keeping 1/3 of the labor force off the job to save the lives of millions of people. Its more than worth and is the only way back to a healthy economy as well.

4. The lockdown is about limiting the spread of the virus so it can eventually be contained through contact tracing methods, or a vaccine is finally developed. Naturally you don't want the healthcare system to be overwhelmed, but the primary goal is defeating the pandemic, not just dealing with it.

5. Well, I guess that means your still in the 8th grade. Most 8th graders would not even engage in such behavior.

1) and? Not one expert model has the death rate above 2.2mil. You’re spinning your wheels.

2) Take out NYC and this virus is a typical flu. NYC handled this poorly. Why? We don’t know.

3) Lack of business acumen. People who own gyms and barber shops do very well. Take a business class. Your WW2 comparison is stupid.

4) Why would you limit a spread of a virus in Utah where they have fewer than 1k cases? Country can open up sans NYC.

5) I wish. It would mean I was very young. You don’t know much about the world, have zero business acumen and don’t understand math. Take an online business class since you’re home.

1. Its not just one expert model, its most models done for most countries around the world which is why lockdown is the strategy rather than going for herd immunity. Most health experts on pandemics support the lockdowns, both in this country and in 99% of countries on the planet.

2. NYC is just the first to be hit more heavily by coronavirus due to it being a the worlds largest travel hub and one of the most densely populated areas in the world. Had Trump closed the borders and banned all foreign travel in January like Taiwan did, we wouldn't be in this mess. The rest of the country which have less coronavirus cases benefit from being less traveled, having less density, and less cases at the time most lockdowns were put in place.

3. People who own gyms and barber shops do well, but most people who work at gyms and barber shops don't make enough money to pay federal tax. As far as World War II, its just an example of both terrible devastation as well as transformation of the economy and mobilizing it to do something complete different. The comparison is solid even if you don't understand it.

4. It only takes one person to infect and kill thousands without proper testing, contact tracing and isolation of the infected and potentially infected. You can only open up and area if the number of new cases is small enough to manage through testing, contact tracing and isolation of known cases and people who are potentially infected. Without those tools to deal with the pandemic, a 1,000 cases can turn into 100,000 cases in days or weeks.

5. More 8th grade rubbish. If your an adult, act like one and discuss the topic and not other posters.

1) We are talking about the US. Show one model where more than 1% of the population dies.

2) LAX is huge and they have a fraction of the cases? Tokyo does too. How do you explain that?

3) So you want to close every barber shop and gym? How about hair salons? My wife pays $250 per haircut and such. Her hair dresser easily cleared $150k per yr. Again you show your lack of business acumen.

4) Kill 1000s LOL. Same is true for the Flu. Why don’t we social distance and lockdown every flu season?

1. Any model that predicts deaths beyond August of 2020 would see deaths cross well above 3 million going over 1% of the population. Sorry, but its not ok to murder 3 million people to save the business of your wife's hairdresser.

2. Japan blocked and restricted all foreign travel, while the United States did not. That's why Japan and Tokyo's numbers are low. That acted early and now enjoy the benefits of that early action. LAX and Los Angeles county are not as large a travel hub as New York City. There were travel bans on China and more concern early on in California than in New York. New York State got its coronavirus cases from people traveling from Europe. New York City does far more travel and business with Europe than Los Angeles does. It was more exposed to the virus coming in from Europe and there were no restrictions. Population density of New York City is much greater than LA County.

3. They are already closed. Even Trump approves their closure. A $250 dollar haircut is a luxury. Its not necessary for survival. I value people's lives of your wife's $250 dollar haircut. If your wife's Hairdresser makes $150,000 a year, she already has a personal income greater than 97% of people in the country. Median Household income United States is only $63,000 a year, and that often includes combined income from two or three people. Your wife's hairdresser will be just fine, provided they are not an idiot with their money.

4. There is no comparison between coronavirus and the flu:
1. There is vaccine every year for the seasonal flu, and if everyone got the flu shot, you would cut the death rate by 90%
2. Coronavirus has a death rate that is 50 times higher than seasonal flu.
3. Coronavirus is more transmissible than seasonal flu.

Median income. What is the median income for Brookline MA? I dont live in Jackson MS and you don’t get to decide what is and isn’t a necessity.

I know most people in Massachusetts support the lockdown and won't be voting for Trump in November. We decide as a democracy what is or is not a necessity. The supporters of lockdown outnumber the supporters of open up.

Yep. Most taxpayers and educated people will vote for Trump so there is that. Our Governor is a Republican. And most don’t support the lockdown.

Well, then I guess the protest against the lockdown are alive and well in Massachusetts. I guess the bars and restaurants in Boston are packed. Did they have the St. Patrick's Day parade this year?

LOL. Give it time. Lockdown started around St Pattys. People are getting anxious. You wait and see.

Oh, I've got my eye on Massachusetts. I'm waiting to see this Trump wave demand a massive opening there. Don't think its going to happen until people feel its SAFE, logical and based on SCIENCE, to open up, instead of based on someone's non-essential business.

Trump said it was up to the governors. You’re just making shit up now as Leftists tend to do.

Its not really up to the governors. Its up to consumers. You can open up a movie theater, but you can't force people to go and buy a ticket and watch a movie in a crowded theater where the spread of the virus would be easy.

Consumers are dying to go. It is up to the governors. Again where do you live? Why avoid the question? LOL

Well, then, we'll see how the experiment in Georgia goes. I guess all the non-essential business's will be filled with customers next week in Georgia.

Yep. People want to live.

California heat wave draws large crowds to beaches despite stay-at-home order

"We've had very good compliance," a lifeguard said. "People are spreading out."

www.google.com

It was only in Orange County, beaches in other more populated areas like LA County are closed.

You missed the point. People flocked to the open ones. Last time I ask. Where do you live? You don’t answer we are done.

If that were the case it would have been impossible to maintain social distancing on the beaches. The overwhelming majority of people in South California did not go to the Orange county beaches.

Get help soon. You have a disease. You cannot read and answer questions.

 

[U2Edge]

4) Kill 1000s LOL. Same is true for the Flu. Why don’t we social distance and lockdown every flu season?

You're still trying to compare this to the flu?

Flu season wipes out an average of 1,330 people in New Jersey each year. Covid-19 killed more than that in New Jersey in the last 5 days.

The reason for the different reaction between flu and coronavirus is obviously due to the differences in potential death rates.

Typical flu season 30-50k die. Take out NYC, which is an outlier we have the same for this. 94% had at least one underlying condition. Keep those at risk home and open it up for the rest of us. Not my fault some people are weak. I had COVID-19. Flu is much worse.

40% of the U.S. population is obese. That's one of the underlying conditions.

Whose fault is that? You obese? Eat less.

That's not the point. You were trying to say most of the population was "SAFE". I was simply pointing out that's not really the case.

Don’t force me to live in isolation because you’re fat. Open it up and faT people can sit home.

You can't say you've opened up if 40% of the population is sitting at home because their obese. A lot of these people don't even realize they are obese and overweight.

Isolating people is not just about protecting their health, its also about depriving the virus of the oxygen it needs to continue spreading. Even if your not at risks for health complications from the virus, the virus can use you as a way to be spread to other people it can kill.

You’re just prolonging the inevitable. People are still going to stores and gas stations. This is not a true lockdown.

Getting Gas is not a prime spot for virus spread. The pumps are nicely spread out and can only handle so many cars at a time. People a driving less and don't need to fill up as often as well. Essential stores are open, but many have restrictions in place to prevent spread.

People are touching the same pump over and over again. Durrr. What restrictions? I walked In and grabbed an ice tea. People were grabbing chips and such and have no idea who touched those chips before them. You’re lying again. Answer me. What state do you live in?

Most of the infections come from being near people, rather than touching the same things they touch. It comes from breathing in very tiny droplets. Rarely does it come from touching a surface and then touching your face. The church group in Seattle practiced social distancing at their practice but it was 60 of them in the same room. It did not matter that no one touched each other and everyone cleaned their hands. They were all breathing close to one another and that was how it spread to 45 of the 60 people there. Most people are getting infected by breathing in tiny droplets.

You’re a liar. You don’t answer questions. You need to be hospitalized. Get help soon.

In early March they stated that it was not airborne and primarily something you would get by touching and infected surface and then touching your face. That has since turned out to be wrong. Most people are getting it through the air and sometimes the droplets can spread 27 feet instead of just 6 feet before they fall to the ground or become to few to cause an infection.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

4) Kill 1000s LOL. Same is true for the Flu. Why don’t we social distance and lockdown every flu season?

You're still trying to compare this to the flu?

Flu season wipes out an average of 1,330 people in New Jersey each year. Covid-19 killed more than that in New Jersey in the last 5 days.

The reason for the different reaction between flu and coronavirus is obviously due to the differences in potential death rates.

Typical flu season 30-50k die. Take out NYC, which is an outlier we have the same for this. 94% had at least one underlying condition. Keep those at risk home and open it up for the rest of us. Not my fault some people are weak. I had COVID-19. Flu is much worse.

40% of the U.S. population is obese. That's one of the underlying conditions.

Whose fault is that? You obese? Eat less.

That's not the point. You were trying to say most of the population was "SAFE". I was simply pointing out that's not really the case.

Don’t force me to live in isolation because you’re fat. Open it up and faT people can sit home.

You can't say you've opened up if 40% of the population is sitting at home because their obese. A lot of these people don't even realize they are obese and overweight.

Isolating people is not just about protecting their health, its also about depriving the virus of the oxygen it needs to continue spreading. Even if your not at risks for health complications from the virus, the virus can use you as a way to be spread to other people it can kill.

You’re just prolonging the inevitable. People are still going to stores and gas stations. This is not a true lockdown.

Getting Gas is not a prime spot for virus spread. The pumps are nicely spread out and can only handle so many cars at a time. People a driving less and don't need to fill up as often as well. Essential stores are open, but many have restrictions in place to prevent spread.

People are touching the same pump over and over again. Durrr. What restrictions? I walked In and grabbed an ice tea. People were grabbing chips and such and have no idea who touched those chips before them. You’re lying again. Answer me. What state do you live in?

Most of the infections come from being near people, rather than touching the same things they touch. It comes from breathing in very tiny droplets. Rarely does it come from touching a surface and then touching your face. The church group in Seattle practiced social distancing at their practice but it was 60 of them in the same room. It did not matter that no one touched each other and everyone cleaned their hands. They were all breathing close to one another and that was how it spread to 45 of the 60 people there. Most people are getting infected by breathing in tiny droplets.

You’re a liar. You don’t answer questions. You need to be hospitalized. Get help soon.

In early March they stated that it was not airborne and primarily something you would get by touching and infected surface and then touching your face. That has since turned out to be wrong. Most people are getting it through the air and sometimes the droplets can spread 27 feet instead of just 6 feet before they fall to the ground or become to few to cause an infection.

Nope. More lies. And you’re psycho. Don’t answer questions just pontificate.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Trump will be defeated in November and the Democrats will keep the House and take back the Senate. Then finally the U.S. government and U.S. policy can get back on a sound footing where SCIENCE and the SCIENCE of dealing with pandemics is how we decide what to do, rather than foolish and unsubstantiated ideas about the cost of keeping non-essential business closed down.

1) there is no way that Trump loses this November. You are dreaming if you think he is.

2) Science has never driven any of the left's wished for policies or policies enacted by Cuomo (forcing nursing homes to take in COVID19 patients) or Gretchen the Witch of Michigan (close churches, open pot shops). There is no scientific data showing that the lockdowns work for preventing the disease from spreading as it is far more contagious than we once believed.

3) Economic depression kill people too, dude. For every 1% increase in the Unemployment rate, about 1500 people die across America. We are facing a choice of having higher risk of transmitting COVID19 vrs more suicides from a psychologically depressed labor force.

 

[toobfreak]

So you are saying that I have an equal chance of catching the virus if I'm at home alone or if I'm in a packed football stadium?

My brother is a cop. He, of course, is still out there on the streets 50 hours a week interacting with people. He and several members of his squad did come down with what was presumed to be the flu back around the first of the year (though he has been wondering if they all really had COVID-19, but it allegedly wasn't here yet), but aside from that he has not been sick. His wife has not been sick. None of their four kids have been sick. I've been running with him about every other day and my wife, son, and I have been over to their house once a week for dinner. None of us have been sick.

That's not really meant to answer your question, but rather give you perspective.

A little contrast: I remember my mother telling me of back when her family lived through the Spanish Flu (a real pandemic). Two of my aunts came down with it and were delirious with high fever and barely pulled through. One was actually never quite normal the rest of her life. A third aunt died of it. She was 15 at the time. That was just ONE home. THAT is a pandemic.

Spanish influenza killed 500,000 people in the United States alone. COVID-19 has killed 50,000. Not quite on the same scale

That was my point. There was only about 100 million in the USA back then, a THIRD the population of today! And it killed a half million! Today we have about 320 million, and Covid has killed only about 50K. Yet we shut the country down and killed industry, society, and our economy. Pandemic? More like bullshit.

 

[toobfreak]

So you are saying that I have an equal chance of catching the virus if I'm at home alone or if I'm in a packed football stadium?

My brother is a cop. He, of course, is still out there on the streets 50 hours a week interacting with people. He and several members of his squad did come down with what was presumed to be the flu back around the first of the year (though he has been wondering if they all really had COVID-19, but it allegedly wasn't here yet), but aside from that he has not been sick. His wife has not been sick. None of their four kids have been sick. I've been running with him about every other day and my wife, son, and I have been over to their house once a week for dinner. None of us have been sick.

That's not really meant to answer your question, but rather give you perspective.

A little contrast: I remember my mother telling me of back when her family lived through the Spanish Flu (a real pandemic). Two of my aunts came down with it and were delirious with high fever and barely pulled through. One was actually never quite normal the rest of her life. A third aunt died of it. She was 15 at the time. That was just ONE home. THAT is a pandemic.

Spanish influenza killed 500,000 people in the United States alone. COVID-19 has killed 50,000. Not quite on the same scale

1. There was virtually no effort on national basis to combat the 1918 pandemic.
2. The Nation today is on lockdown which is depriving the virus of the oxygen(human bodies) it needs to spread and kill.
3. The 1918 pandemic stretched all the way into 1920 worldwide. Were only 3 months into the coronavirus pandemic.
4. Total deaths in the United States are 54,000 right now and rising 2,000 per day. The 1918 pandemic has been over for 100 years, this pandemic has just started.

1918 Flu Pandemic: Half million killed, 1 out of every 200, yet nation went on after that into the glorious Roaring Twenties.

2020 Corona Fraud: 50,000 dead, 1 out of every 6,400, 30X fewer deaths, yet due to the panic shutdown, we have already guaranteed massive loan defaults, collapse of healthcare, destruction of jobs and savings, devastation of industry and economy and the Dollar leading into a mini-depression for all alive, and in only two months, which will FORCE us to open the economy again regardless of the virus!

LESSON LEARNED: We have fucked ourselves royally, weakened our ability to deal with future virus repeats, and in the end, Mother Nature will win anyway. She always does.

 

[playtime]

Updated:Mar 30, 2020Original:Mar 3, 2020
Why the Second Wave of the 1918 Spanish Flu Was So Deadly
The first strain of the Spanish flu wasn’t particularly deadly. Then it came back in the fall with a vengeance.
Dave Roos
[...]
While the global pandemic lasted for two years, the vast majority of deaths were packed into three especially cruel months in the fall of 1918. Historians now believe that the fatal severity of the Spanish flu’s “second wave” was caused by a mutated virus spread by wartime troop movements.
[...]
Reported cases of Spanish flu dropped off over the summer of 1918, and there was hope at the beginning of August that the virus had run its course. In retrospect, it was only the calm before the storm. Somewhere in Europe, a mutated strain of the Spanish flu virus had emerged that had the power to kill a perfectly healthy young man or woman within 24 hours of showing the first signs of infection.
[...]
Only decades later were scientists able explain the phenomenon now known as “cytokine explosion.” When the human body is being attacked by a virus, the immune system sends messenger proteins called cytokines to promote helpful inflammation. But some strains of the flu, particularly the H1N1 strain responsible for the Spanish flu outbreak, can trigger a dangerous immune overreaction in healthy individuals. In those cases, the body is overloaded with cytokines leading to severe inflammation and the fatal buildup of fluid in the lungs.

British military doctors conducting autopsies on soldiers killed by this second wave of the Spanish flu described the heavy damage to the lungs as akin to the effects of chemical warfare.

Lack of Quarantines Allowed Flu to Spread and Grow
[...]
Harris believes that the rapid spread of Spanish flu in the fall of 1918 was at least partially to blame on public health officials unwilling to impose quarantines during wartime. In Britain, for example, a government official named Arthur Newsholme knew full well that a strict civilian lockdown was the best way to fight the spread of the highly contagious disease. But he wouldn’t risk crippling the war effort by keeping munitions factory workers and other civilians home.

According to Harris’s research, Newsholme concluded that “the relentless needs of warfare justified incurring [the] risk of spreading infection” and encouraged Britons to simply “carry on” during the pandemic.

The public health response to the crisis in the United States was further hampered by a severe nursing shortage as thousands of nurses had been deployed to military camps and the front lines....
[...]
Why the Second Wave of the 1918 Spanish Flu Was So Deadly

 

[KGB]

Appears all it did was saddle the taxpayer with a couple of trillion dollars more debt. ...

there’s that. I do believe it helped the medical community out, but that reasoning is fast becoming obsolete with each passing day.

Exactly, and I don't see how locking down States, producing another 10 million or more unemployed, and causing thousands more business to go bankrupt, and States governments themselves going bankrupt, is going to help the nation.

We could probably do almost the same thing in this shelter-in-place lockdown, if we just went out and did our business in public, as long as we observe mitigation practices. Sheltering in-house is nothing but a mitigation practice. It does nothing to cure the virus it does nothing to end virus it does nothing but prolong the effects of the virus

FALSE! lockdowns deprive the virus of its resources or oxygen. The virus is like a fire, it needs oxygen to keep burning. In this case oxygen is people. So when you isolate healthy people from those that have the virus, the virus dies. The virus needs human hosts to survive. Deprive it of human hosts, it dies.

The damage to the economy is minimal given that 37% of the labor force can work from home and another 25% are involved in essential services. The economy will take a hit, but it can be rebuilt. Even Hiroshima that was nuked on August 6, 1945 was fully rebuilt and had a larger population by 1958. If Hiroshima can recover from being nuked, the United States can recover from 30 million people being jobless for a few years.

Tell that to those 30 million people. The last time we had that many out of work was the Great Depression.

They have a new job now. Being paid to stay home by the government. Consider it part of the war effort against coronavirus. This is a pandemic, you can't have normal life during a pandemic. Society switches to survival mode. Once the pandemic is over, you can return to business as usual.

You really don’t understand economics do you? You think just like that, all those people will suddenly go back to work? A lot of those places those people worked shut down permanently.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Appears all it did was saddle the taxpayer with a couple of trillion dollars more debt. ...

there’s that. I do believe it helped the medical community out, but that reasoning is fast becoming obsolete with each passing day.

Exactly, and I don't see how locking down States, producing another 10 million or more unemployed, and causing thousands more business to go bankrupt, and States governments themselves going bankrupt, is going to help the nation.

We could probably do almost the same thing in this shelter-in-place lockdown, if we just went out and did our business in public, as long as we observe mitigation practices. Sheltering in-house is nothing but a mitigation practice. It does nothing to cure the virus it does nothing to end virus it does nothing but prolong the effects of the virus

FALSE! lockdowns deprive the virus of its resources or oxygen. The virus is like a fire, it needs oxygen to keep burning. In this case oxygen is people. So when you isolate healthy people from those that have the virus, the virus dies. The virus needs human hosts to survive. Deprive it of human hosts, it dies.

The damage to the economy is minimal given that 37% of the labor force can work from home and another 25% are involved in essential services. The economy will take a hit, but it can be rebuilt. Even Hiroshima that was nuked on August 6, 1945 was fully rebuilt and had a larger population by 1958. If Hiroshima can recover from being nuked, the United States can recover from 30 million people being jobless for a few years.

Tell that to those 30 million people. The last time we had that many out of work was the Great Depression.

They have a new job now. Being paid to stay home by the government. Consider it part of the war effort against coronavirus. This is a pandemic, you can't have normal life during a pandemic. Society switches to survival mode. Once the pandemic is over, you can return to business as usual.

You really don’t understand economics do you? You think just like that, all those people will suddenly go back to work? A lot of those places those people worked shut down permanently.

He doesn’t understand economics, science, mathematics or logic. Typical Leftist.

 

[playtime]

Appears all it did was saddle the taxpayer with a couple of trillion dollars more debt. ...

there’s that. I do believe it helped the medical community out, but that reasoning is fast becoming obsolete with each passing day.

Exactly, and I don't see how locking down States, producing another 10 million or more unemployed, and causing thousands more business to go bankrupt, and States governments themselves going bankrupt, is going to help the nation.

We could probably do almost the same thing in this shelter-in-place lockdown, if we just went out and did our business in public, as long as we observe mitigation practices. Sheltering in-house is nothing but a mitigation practice. It does nothing to cure the virus it does nothing to end virus it does nothing but prolong the effects of the virus

FALSE! lockdowns deprive the virus of its resources or oxygen. The virus is like a fire, it needs oxygen to keep burning. In this case oxygen is people. So when you isolate healthy people from those that have the virus, the virus dies. The virus needs human hosts to survive. Deprive it of human hosts, it dies.

The damage to the economy is minimal given that 37% of the labor force can work from home and another 25% are involved in essential services. The economy will take a hit, but it can be rebuilt. Even Hiroshima that was nuked on August 6, 1945 was fully rebuilt and had a larger population by 1958. If Hiroshima can recover from being nuked, the United States can recover from 30 million people being jobless for a few years.

Tell that to those 30 million people. The last time we had that many out of work was the Great Depression.

They have a new job now. Being paid to stay home by the government. Consider it part of the war effort against coronavirus. This is a pandemic, you can't have normal life during a pandemic. Society switches to survival mode. Once the pandemic is over, you can return to business as usual.

You really don’t understand economics do you? You think just like that, all those people will suddenly go back to work? A lot of those places those people worked shut down permanently.

He doesn’t understand economics, science, mathematics or logic. Typical Leftist.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Appears all it did was saddle the taxpayer with a couple of trillion dollars more debt. ...

there’s that. I do believe it helped the medical community out, but that reasoning is fast becoming obsolete with each passing day.

Exactly, and I don't see how locking down States, producing another 10 million or more unemployed, and causing thousands more business to go bankrupt, and States governments themselves going bankrupt, is going to help the nation.

We could probably do almost the same thing in this shelter-in-place lockdown, if we just went out and did our business in public, as long as we observe mitigation practices. Sheltering in-house is nothing but a mitigation practice. It does nothing to cure the virus it does nothing to end virus it does nothing but prolong the effects of the virus

FALSE! lockdowns deprive the virus of its resources or oxygen. The virus is like a fire, it needs oxygen to keep burning. In this case oxygen is people. So when you isolate healthy people from those that have the virus, the virus dies. The virus needs human hosts to survive. Deprive it of human hosts, it dies.

The damage to the economy is minimal given that 37% of the labor force can work from home and another 25% are involved in essential services. The economy will take a hit, but it can be rebuilt. Even Hiroshima that was nuked on August 6, 1945 was fully rebuilt and had a larger population by 1958. If Hiroshima can recover from being nuked, the United States can recover from 30 million people being jobless for a few years.

Tell that to those 30 million people. The last time we had that many out of work was the Great Depression.

They have a new job now. Being paid to stay home by the government. Consider it part of the war effort against coronavirus. This is a pandemic, you can't have normal life during a pandemic. Society switches to survival mode. Once the pandemic is over, you can return to business as usual.

You really don’t understand economics do you? You think just like that, all those people will suddenly go back to work? A lot of those places those people worked shut down permanently.

He doesn’t understand economics, science, mathematics or logic. Typical Leftist.

View attachment 328388

Show the dislikes. Let’s see em.

 

[playtime]

Appears all it did was saddle the taxpayer with a couple of trillion dollars more debt. ...

there’s that. I do believe it helped the medical community out, but that reasoning is fast becoming obsolete with each passing day.

Exactly, and I don't see how locking down States, producing another 10 million or more unemployed, and causing thousands more business to go bankrupt, and States governments themselves going bankrupt, is going to help the nation.

We could probably do almost the same thing in this shelter-in-place lockdown, if we just went out and did our business in public, as long as we observe mitigation practices. Sheltering in-house is nothing but a mitigation practice. It does nothing to cure the virus it does nothing to end virus it does nothing but prolong the effects of the virus

FALSE! lockdowns deprive the virus of its resources or oxygen. The virus is like a fire, it needs oxygen to keep burning. In this case oxygen is people. So when you isolate healthy people from those that have the virus, the virus dies. The virus needs human hosts to survive. Deprive it of human hosts, it dies.

The damage to the economy is minimal given that 37% of the labor force can work from home and another 25% are involved in essential services. The economy will take a hit, but it can be rebuilt. Even Hiroshima that was nuked on August 6, 1945 was fully rebuilt and had a larger population by 1958. If Hiroshima can recover from being nuked, the United States can recover from 30 million people being jobless for a few years.

Tell that to those 30 million people. The last time we had that many out of work was the Great Depression.

They have a new job now. Being paid to stay home by the government. Consider it part of the war effort against coronavirus. This is a pandemic, you can't have normal life during a pandemic. Society switches to survival mode. Once the pandemic is over, you can return to business as usual.

You really don’t understand economics do you? You think just like that, all those people will suddenly go back to work? A lot of those places those people worked shut down permanently.

He doesn’t understand economics, science, mathematics or logic. Typical Leftist.

View attachment 328388

Show the dislikes. Let’s see em.

haaaaaaaaaaaa............... made you look!

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Appears all it did was saddle the taxpayer with a couple of trillion dollars more debt. ...

there’s that. I do believe it helped the medical community out, but that reasoning is fast becoming obsolete with each passing day.

Exactly, and I don't see how locking down States, producing another 10 million or more unemployed, and causing thousands more business to go bankrupt, and States governments themselves going bankrupt, is going to help the nation.

We could probably do almost the same thing in this shelter-in-place lockdown, if we just went out and did our business in public, as long as we observe mitigation practices. Sheltering in-house is nothing but a mitigation practice. It does nothing to cure the virus it does nothing to end virus it does nothing but prolong the effects of the virus

FALSE! lockdowns deprive the virus of its resources or oxygen. The virus is like a fire, it needs oxygen to keep burning. In this case oxygen is people. So when you isolate healthy people from those that have the virus, the virus dies. The virus needs human hosts to survive. Deprive it of human hosts, it dies.

The damage to the economy is minimal given that 37% of the labor force can work from home and another 25% are involved in essential services. The economy will take a hit, but it can be rebuilt. Even Hiroshima that was nuked on August 6, 1945 was fully rebuilt and had a larger population by 1958. If Hiroshima can recover from being nuked, the United States can recover from 30 million people being jobless for a few years.

Tell that to those 30 million people. The last time we had that many out of work was the Great Depression.

They have a new job now. Being paid to stay home by the government. Consider it part of the war effort against coronavirus. This is a pandemic, you can't have normal life during a pandemic. Society switches to survival mode. Once the pandemic is over, you can return to business as usual.

You really don’t understand economics do you? You think just like that, all those people will suddenly go back to work? A lot of those places those people worked shut down permanently.

He doesn’t understand economics, science, mathematics or logic. Typical Leftist.

View attachment 328388

Show the dislikes. Let’s see em.

haaaaaaaaaaaa............... made you look!

Ha ha gave you a thumbs down

 

[playtime]

Appears all it did was saddle the taxpayer with a couple of trillion dollars more debt. ...

there’s that. I do believe it helped the medical community out, but that reasoning is fast becoming obsolete with each passing day.

Exactly, and I don't see how locking down States, producing another 10 million or more unemployed, and causing thousands more business to go bankrupt, and States governments themselves going bankrupt, is going to help the nation.

We could probably do almost the same thing in this shelter-in-place lockdown, if we just went out and did our business in public, as long as we observe mitigation practices. Sheltering in-house is nothing but a mitigation practice. It does nothing to cure the virus it does nothing to end virus it does nothing but prolong the effects of the virus

FALSE! lockdowns deprive the virus of its resources or oxygen. The virus is like a fire, it needs oxygen to keep burning. In this case oxygen is people. So when you isolate healthy people from those that have the virus, the virus dies. The virus needs human hosts to survive. Deprive it of human hosts, it dies.

The damage to the economy is minimal given that 37% of the labor force can work from home and another 25% are involved in essential services. The economy will take a hit, but it can be rebuilt. Even Hiroshima that was nuked on August 6, 1945 was fully rebuilt and had a larger population by 1958. If Hiroshima can recover from being nuked, the United States can recover from 30 million people being jobless for a few years.

Tell that to those 30 million people. The last time we had that many out of work was the Great Depression.

They have a new job now. Being paid to stay home by the government. Consider it part of the war effort against coronavirus. This is a pandemic, you can't have normal life during a pandemic. Society switches to survival mode. Once the pandemic is over, you can return to business as usual.

You really don’t understand economics do you? You think just like that, all those people will suddenly go back to work? A lot of those places those people worked shut down permanently.

He doesn’t understand economics, science, mathematics or logic. Typical Leftist.

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[Flopper]

Protect the vulnerable, develop the herd immunity. Only way out and has been from the beginning.

Sweden resisted a lockdown, and its capital Stockholm is expected to reach 'herd immunity' in weeks

Sweden went against the grain by keeping public life as unrestricted as possible when the coronavirus hit. Now, it says its strategy appears to be working.

www.cnbc.com

Meanwhile we're arresting people in parks and hiding like rats and it is, of course, way more widespread than people thought, even with all of these measures here.

At a cost to Sweden so far of 192 deaths/million population compared to the US at 144/million.
So, are you volunteering to get infected?

Yes and they'll be largely done while we are still hiding and trying to stop something we cannot, while our death toll will likely be spread over a longer time period as we have multiple waves of this.

And spare me the BS leading question/false choice nonsense. I've been working right through this with very few changes in my life and nobody, including Sweden, is advocating not taking reasonable precautions. This is NOT an either or choice between total lockdown and slobbering all over each other at every opportunity while making no effort to slow transmission and protect the vulnerable- and never has been.

And the point is, for those too myopic to realize this, that there are other strategies out there that have been employed, and other nations that are further along the timeline than we are. As those results start to become available it makes sense and is necessary to assess them to determine the best path forward for us.

Which country has the best results in protecting it population from coronavirus? The Answer TAIWAN! Only 6 deaths in TAIWAN. TAIWAN is the gold standard in protecting its population. Trump's failure is measured by the number of deaths Taiwan has vs. the United States.

Sweden has the 9th highest death rate per capita in the world from coronavirus. Why would anyone follow that example for protecting its population. There are only 8 other countries that are dying at a greater rate than Sweden from coronavirus.

Because you're only delaying the inevitable. You can get the virus now or 6 months from now.

Well, then your claiming that its inevitable that 5 million Americans will die from the virus and we should not do anything.

South Korea is a country of 50 million people, but has less than 11,000 infections. Tell me, when will the other 49,989,000 people get the virus?

TAIWAN is a country of 24 million people with only 429 infections. Tell me when the other 23,999,571 people will be getting the virus in TAIWAN? Realize TAIWAN often goes several days without any new infections at all. Today, the whole country had ONE new infection.

Did everyone get the 1918 Spanish Flu? NOPE. Did the few cities that practiced social distancing and shutdown business's suffer less death and illness? YEP!

NOTHING is inevitable when it comes to a virus and societies fight against it. People can make a difference and save lives through their actions. That was the lesson of the 1918 pandemic!

This is not an either-or scenario.

I know you want to run around with your hair perpetually on fire and think the entire nation should hide until the advent of some medical advance that frees us from bondage.

The rest of us would rather plan an actual way out of this mess. If that is reasonable social distancing, protecting the at risk and managing spikes, more widespread antibody testing, fine and I think that's where we are headed.

No matter what, there will be risks. Everyone acknowledges that there is no safe path and it sucks. States are already running out of money and we're a couple of months in. Thats only going to get worse, not better, until we take a step back and reassess based on what we are learning here and from other countries that have adapted different strategies and adapt an approach here that gets people back to work as soon as possible while protecting the vulnerable to the greatest degree possible.

I don't think you realize how much of the population in the United States is vulnerable. 40% of the U.S. population is obese. Nearly 50% have hypertension or pre-hypertension which is another underlying risk factor.

The lockdown economic damage is minimal compared to the death and destruction that would be caused by letting the virus run rampant. There is NO MIDDLEGROUND! The virus is like a FIRE, it needs oxygen to survive. The oxygen in this case is PEOPLE. You kill this thing by keeping people ISOLATED from each other.

You can lockdown for 3 years or 5 years if needed, the economic damage would be minimal and repairable compared to say being NUKED. Hiroshima was nuked on August 6, 1945, but the city was fully rebuilt by 1958 and had a larger population in 1958 than in 1945.

The economic damage is bad, but its certainly not as bad as what Hiroshima went through. The economic damage can be repaired. But you can't bring someone back to life who has died from covid-19.

In terms of protecting the vulnerable, we have already failed to protect old people in nursing homes. The loss of life in nursing homes has been terrible. You risk killing more vulnerable people by reopening and will only bring another lockdown within a couple of months.

The vast majority of Americans support the lockdown. Most Americans are also not going to suddenly become customers at these non-essential business's you want to reopen. Consumers will not come out to spend until it is SAFE. So opening your business won't solve the economic problem. In fact, it may just put people further in the hole. The cost of opening up but getting no customers for business would be a WORSE situation than staying locked down.

Sure, lets lockdown for 3-5 years.

Totally feasible, and your supporting argument is that a city rebuilt after an atomic bomb detonation.

I honestly have nothing to say to that that wouldn't be so downright dickish that your ancestors would be insulted, so I think I'll pass. Go right ahead and believe that if you'd like.

Look at Germany and Japan in 1945. Nearly every city destroyed, millions dead. Yet, both countries recovered from those tragedies by 1960.

Is the devastation of 3 years under lockdown get you to the place where Germany and Japan were in the Summer of 1945? Not even close.

37% of the labor force is able to work from home. 25% of the labor force is engaged in essential services. So a little over 60% of the labor force is still at work under this lockdown.

Sure, let's truck along with a higher unemployment rate than the great depression for 3-5 years. It'll be fine.

The UN is already warning that hundreds of thousands of children may die THIS YEAR because of the economic downturn. Lets extend to 5 and see how many we can rack up, cause Hiroshima rebuilt. M'kay.

I don't know where you come up with this silly crap, but, again believe it if you like.

Do you even understand what happened to Germany and Japan in World War II? Do you understand where both countries were at in the summer of 1945. If Germany and Japan can survive and rebuild from the state they were in, in 1945, a United States lockdown where 60% of the population is still working will be a picnic by comparison.

You can repair the economic damage. You can't bring someone back to life who has physically died of covid-19. Most Americans understand that and that's why most Americans agree with ME, rather than YOU.

Not the same. People were free to live and innovate. Sports were abundant and concerts. Family gatherings, etc. You want to shut all that down. That is extreme crazy talk to save those who are fat and unhealthy. Why can they not stay isolated and allow the rest of us to live?

40% of the American population is obese. Then there are those who are not obese who have other conditions. Bottom line, most of the population is NOT SAFE!

People can still live an innovate from home. In fact, 37% of the labor force is able to do their current job without leaving their house. Another 25% are engaged in "Essential Services". For the 1/3 of the labor force that is not working, they can be paid to stay at home, just like the government paid 1/3 of the labor force in the 1940s to go overseas and kill Germans and Japs.

Lockdown is necessary. The damage done is repairable. Innovation is actually happening more rapidly right now than at any time in the past 20 years. Bars, nightclubs, Church, concerts, sporting events, will have to wait maybe a few years while this passes on. All those things will eventually return though. The economy will evolve and change during this time as well. As a society, we will most likely be better off once we get through this pandemic.

#1) Link that most is not safe. LOL. 94% of deaths are to those who had at least one underlying condition.

#2) Really? Barber shops, gyms, NBA, NFL, NCAA sports, NHL, PGA, MLB --- you want to shut it all down for 5 years. Taxation would decline significantly and no more police and or fire. No more movies, sitcoms, etc. Concerts. You basically end the world to save a few people who would die anyway.

#3) Lockdown is necessary not to overwhelm the healthcare system. We have built up enough capacity to handle it.

#4) Your lack of logic is comical. I'll start the thread so people can mock you.

1. 40% of Americans are obese. That is JUST ONE underlying condition that puts people at greater risk for complications from covid-19. If you understand math, you'll realize more than 50% of Americans are at risk. 17% of the U.S. population, 56 million Americans, are age 65 and over.

2. You shut non-essential business down until the number of new cases is low enough to contain through contact tracing OR you develop a vaccine. IF that is 2 years or 3 years, you do what you have to do, because the pathogen threatens the health of everyone and threatens the economy too. Consumers won't be buying and spending time at these non-essential business's if they feel its not safe. No one wants to risk getting sick or dying just to go to a bar or football game.

3. Most of the people employed in these jobs at gyms, barber shops, sports venues don't make enough money to even pay federal tax. In any event they only account for 1/3 of the workforce. During World War II, the United States sent 1/3 of the labor force overseas to kill Germans and Japs for years. We can pay people to stay in their homes to win the war against coronavirus. In addition, during this lockdown, 60% of the labor force is still working, because 37% can work from home and 25% work in essential services. Your keeping 1/3 of the labor force off the job to save the lives of millions of people. Its more than worth and is the only way back to a healthy economy as well.

4. The lockdown is about limiting the spread of the virus so it can eventually be contained through contact tracing methods, or a vaccine is finally developed. Naturally you don't want the healthcare system to be overwhelmed, but the primary goal is defeating the pandemic, not just dealing with it.

5. Well, I guess that means your still in the 8th grade. Most 8th graders would not even engage in such behavior.

1) and? Not one expert model has the death rate above 2.2mil. You’re spinning your wheels.

2) Take out NYC and this virus is a typical flu. NYC handled this poorly. Why? We don’t know.

3) Lack of business acumen. People who own gyms and barber shops do very well. Take a business class. Your WW2 comparison is stupid.

4) Why would you limit a spread of a virus in Utah where they have fewer than 1k cases? Country can open up sans NYC.

5) I wish. It would mean I was very young. You don’t know much about the world, have zero business acumen and don’t understand math. Take an online business class since you’re home.

1. Its not just one expert model, its most models done for most countries around the world which is why lockdown is the strategy rather than going for herd immunity. Most health experts on pandemics support the lockdowns, both in this country and in 99% of countries on the planet.

2. NYC is just the first to be hit more heavily by coronavirus due to it being a the worlds largest travel hub and one of the most densely populated areas in the world. Had Trump closed the borders and banned all foreign travel in January like Taiwan did, we wouldn't be in this mess. The rest of the country which have less coronavirus cases benefit from being less traveled, having less density, and less cases at the time most lockdowns were put in place.

3. People who own gyms and barber shops do well, but most people who work at gyms and barber shops don't make enough money to pay federal tax. As far as World War II, its just an example of both terrible devastation as well as transformation of the economy and mobilizing it to do something complete different. The comparison is solid even if you don't understand it.

4. It only takes one person to infect and kill thousands without proper testing, contact tracing and isolation of the infected and potentially infected. You can only open up and area if the number of new cases is small enough to manage through testing, contact tracing and isolation of known cases and people who are potentially infected. Without those tools to deal with the pandemic, a 1,000 cases can turn into 100,000 cases in days or weeks.

5. More 8th grade rubbish. If your an adult, act like one and discuss the topic and not other posters.

Unless you're prepared to confront the epidemic early on, which the US was not, lock downs and shutdowns are only alternative to allowing the virus to run it's course. Isolating members of the community is simplistic and it's been proven to work. The problem with this is that it relies on public support. That support might be very good when the 1st wave hits, but with the 2nd or 3rd, people are far less likely to be supportive. That's where things can get really messy.

 

[ABikerSailor]

You know, you guys would be well to think of this lockdown kinda like taking medicine....................

I had a physician's attendant on my last ship give me a script for a urinary tract infection. He told me that the script was for 10 days, and while I might feel better in a week, I was to take all the pills for the whole 10 day period. He said that if I stopped too soon, the drugs will have killed off most of the bacteria, but there could be a couple of strong survivors still out there, and if I stopped too soon, it could come back with a vengeance and be worse than what I started with.

Same here. Our economy has already taken a hit from this shutdown, and if we open too soon, it could cause a second wave requiring another shutdown. And, if we have to have another month of shutdown, that could really harm the economy, so deal with this one until the curve flattens out, then open everything back up.

 

[Flopper]

So you are saying that I have an equal chance of catching the virus if I'm at home alone or if I'm in a packed football stadium?

My brother is a cop. He, of course, is still out there on the streets 50 hours a week interacting with people. He and several members of his squad did come down with what was presumed to be the flu back around the first of the year (though he has been wondering if they all really had COVID-19, but it allegedly wasn't here yet), but aside from that he has not been sick. His wife has not been sick. None of their four kids have been sick. I've been running with him about every other day and my wife, son, and I have been over to their house once a week for dinner. None of us have been sick.

That's not really meant to answer your question, but rather give you perspective.

A little contrast: I remember my mother telling me of back when her family lived through the Spanish Flu (a real pandemic). Two of my aunts came down with it and were delirious with high fever and barely pulled through. One was actually never quite normal the rest of her life. A third aunt died of it. She was 15 at the time. That was just ONE home. THAT is a pandemic.

Spanish influenza killed 500,000 people in the United States alone. COVID-19 has killed 50,000. Not quite on the same scale

That was my point. There was only about 100 million in the USA back then, a THIRD the population of today! And it killed a half million! Today we have about 320 million, and Covid has killed only about 50K. Yet we shut the country down and killed industry, society, and our economy. Pandemic? More like bullshit.

Primary due to the media and rapid communications, we are far more sensitive to death and it's not just epidemics. In WWII, battles that cost the lives of more Americans than the entire war in Afghanistan barely made the headlines. Today the death of one soldier will capture the headlines. We will spend a million dollars trying to save a homeless man's life in a hospital when chances of success are 1 in a million. I can remember when a homeless person would be unlikely to get past the emergency room regardless of the problem. I just read about a charitable group that transports injured wildlife to free clinics around the country. 50 years ago, that problem would have been solved with one bullet. Some might think this is good and other not but, it's a fact of life today.