McCarthyism Style Witch-Hunt Attacks Baseball Players

[Itsthetruth]

I wrote: "Only one thing wrong with names you presented. They were not members of the American Communist Party! I don't believe they were even accused by JosephMcCarthy and his gay pals Roy Cohn and J. Edgar Hoover with being members of the Communist Party. Now if you've uncovered evidence that the Rosenbergs, Fuchs, Philby, etc., were members of the American Communist Party I suggest you provide it now."

And you responded:

You're just talking crazy now.
Extraordinary. This is wrong on so many levels, I scarcely know where to begin.

You might begin by answering the original question. That's always a good way to start!

It seems your evasive non-response is an admission that you can't find any evidence indicating real or imagined "Soviet spies" were members of the Communist Party. Is that right?

 

[Itsthetruth]

You did state that people who believe in "communism" are not protected by the Bill of Rights and therefore "DO NOT have the right to that particular point of view". And later you explained that:

I do believe that communists should have been ferreted out and exposed.

Given your clear position I have to wonder what you think the government should do with the many individuals and organizations that call themselves socialist, marxist or communist.

Since people and groups are not protected under your version of the Bill of Rights (one that doesn't protect our freedoms), do you think the feds should round them all up and place them in concentration camps? That's what that "great" anti-communist Adolph Hitler did with radicals, socialists and communists in Germany. They were the first ones to "disappear".

 

[Itsthetruth]

Lexington Herald-Leader
March 11, 2005

Newsman says dissent stifled
BOB EDWARDS SAYS CURRENT PERIOD LIKE MCCARTHY ERA

Louisville native Bob Edwards warned last night that the United States is in a period like the McCarthy era of the 1950s, in which the government is stifling political dissent while the news media and the public fail to speak out in vigorous opposition.

Speaking at Centre College, Edwards, a host for XM Satellite Radio, said the "Bush administration holds reporters in contempt" and has become the "all-time champion of information control."

Edwards built a theme based on a quote by Bush's former press secretary, Ari Fleischer, in the wake of 9/11: "People should watch what they say."

He quoted Edward R. Murrow's famous TV response to Sen. Joseph McCarthy's communist witch hunt: "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty," and "we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/state/11106776.htm

 

[Itsthetruth]

CounterPunch
Weekend Edition
March 12 / 13, 2005

Communist Watch
Keeping Time with Wingnuts
By BEN TRIPP

I own a Soviet wristwatch and a vintage Chinese propaganda poster featuring Marx, Lenin, and Mao in heroic profile. That's as close to communism as I get, unless you include the first two reels of D.I. Pudovkin's 'End of St. Petersburg', viewed ante-slumber during a film studies class at the Rhode Island School of Design. Yet I have been called a communist countless times, or maybe thirty-three times. This is because my detractors are boobs and ninnies, primarily, but also because there is a vast, primitive machinery devoted to rounding up enemies of the American state. This engine of paranoid jingoism is operated by common folk (very common they are, too), but the spares and lubricants are provided by the same folks that brought you the G.W. Bush Red White & Blue All-American 10-Inch Uncut Minstrel Show currently playing to standing-room-only crowds in Washington, DC.

This leftist-grinding contraption is fueled, ingeniously enough, by ground-up leftists. I've examined the basic plans and it seems the Republicans, in whose vested interests it is to ensure there isn't a single renewable resource in general use (from stem cells to fuel cells), have invented a perpetual motion machine that will run forever on a single trumped-up charge. The essential ingredient is a list of names. Orc-like zealots in the nationalist cause have been writing up a new list that should keep the machine a-grinding for fifty years: see http://discoverthenetwork.org/individual.asp. The list includes a variety of persons public-spirited, creative, or well-meaning, born between the years 1910 and last week; there are also genuine communists, and just to throw a little Cajun spice on it, the list includes the occasional actual terrorist (Mohammed Atta, for example, and Roger Ebert).

I didn't end up on the list. It makes me wonder what a fellow has to do to qualify. Piss off the authors of the list, obviously. And you don't have to take my word for it that the list-makers are cranks: take a look for yourself. The categories of outrages to all things American into which the list is organized includes the following:

Anti-War
Civil Liberties
Entertainment Arts
Feminist
Human Rights
Muslim

I think these selections speak for themselves. Speaking for yourself is a dangerous activity these days. But as most of the people on this list demonstrate, speaking out for others is the most dangerous activity of all. Get on the list, people. It's a point of honor.

http://www.counterpunch.org/tripp03122005.html

 

[Trinity]

I read it. Not even one member of the Communist Party is listed as being a Soviet spy. So what is your point?

Klaus Fuchs
During World War II German-born physicist Klaus Fuchs worked on The Manhattan Project [the Atomic Bomb] at the Los Alamos Laboratories in New Mexico. In January 1950 Fuchs confessed to British Intelligence and later to the FBI that during the time he was at Los Alamos he had been a Soviet spy. Fuchs said the man to whom he passed on information about the atomic bomb project was known to him as Raymond. Raymond was eventually identified as a Philadelphia chemist whose real name was Harry Gold. Gold's other contact at Los Alamos was David Greenglass, the brother-in-law of Julius Rosenberg.

David & Ruth Greenglass
David Greenglass was Ethel Rosenberg's younger brother and had been introduced to Communism by Julius and Ethel. Greenglass worked as an Army mechanic at Los Alamos from 1944-1946. After being identified as a contact by Harry Gold, Greenglass was also arrested for espionage and was one of the main witnesses against the Rosenbergs at their trial. Part of the testimony that was used against Ethel Rosenberg was that she typed David's notes about the Manhattan Project [the Atomic Bomb] and that those notes were part of the information Julius Rosenberg later passed on to the Soviets. The typing of the notes was seen as proof of Ethel Rosenberg's participation in espionage.

Ethel & Julius Rosenberg
There were certainly people both before and after their execution who thought the Rosenbergs were innocent. As time went on and documents about the case began to be declassified and released, especially the Venona Intercepts, even some of these supporters came to believe that Julius Rosenberg was indeed a Soviet spy. However, the information revealed in the declassified documents did not indicate that Ethel Rosenberg was deeply involved in espionage. Many historians have come to feel that while Ethel Rosenberg was aware of her husband's activities, she did not play a primary role in the espionage and that her activities did not rise to the level of the death penalty.

At the time of the trial a strong piece of evidence against Ethel Rosenberg was the testimony of her brother David Greenglass and his wife Ruth that she had typed up Greenglass' notes from Los Alamos. Julius Rosenberg later gave these notes to the Soviets. The prosecution claimed that the typing of the notes was evidence of her involvement in the espionage. In recent years David Greenglass has said his wife lied about Ethel typing his notes and that he also lied about the typed notes to prevent his wife from going to prison.

http://www.ccny.cuny.edu/library/Divisions/Government/rosenbergs.html#WW

 

[musicman]

So what in the world does that have to do with the Communist Party? They were not members and were never charged with being members.

That's the essence of your argument, then? You don't see the silliness of that?

Now a lot of people thought the evidence against the Rosenbergs was questionable "they stole the Atomic bomb secret" and correctly believed the real purpose of the prosecution was to smear everyone who was a socialist, marxist or communist as "spies". It worked. You still believe that myth!

See? This is a perfect illustration of why your credibility is nil around here. How in the world did we make the leap from "...a lot of people thought the evidence...was questionable..." to "You still believe that myth!"?! Your calling it a myth doesn't make it a myth. This is real life, not an episode of "The West Wing". The only way to mold life to liberal dogma is to lie your ass off. Is that how you want to spend your life?

You're intellectually lazy, Itt. I blame a culture that spawns the like of Ward Churchill, Dan Rather, and DU. I give you credit for having the guts to come around here and fight, but you're finding out this isn't one little bit like DU, aren't you? You're going to have to get a lot smarter, and a lot braver - brave enough to take a hard look at some of the horseshit you've been spoon-fed by the left. Are you up for that? Remains to be seen, I guess.

 

[Itsthetruth]

Klaus Fuchs
During World War II German-born physicist Klaus Fuchs worked on The Manhattan Project [the Atomic Bomb] at the Los Alamos Laboratories in New Mexico. In January 1950 Fuchs confessed to British Intelligence and later to the FBI that during the time he was at Los Alamos he had been a Soviet spy. Fuchs said the man to whom he passed on information about the atomic bomb project was known to him as Raymond. Raymond was eventually identified as a Philadelphia chemist whose real name was Harry Gold. Gold's other contact at Los Alamos was David Greenglass, the brother-in-law of Julius Rosenberg.

David & Ruth Greenglass
David Greenglass was Ethel Rosenberg's younger brother and had been introduced to Communism by Julius and Ethel. Greenglass worked as an Army mechanic at Los Alamos from 1944-1946. After being identified as a contact by Harry Gold, Greenglass was also arrested for espionage and was one of the main witnesses against the Rosenbergs at their trial. Part of the testimony that was used against Ethel Rosenberg was that she typed David's notes about the Manhattan Project [the Atomic Bomb] and that those notes were part of the information Julius Rosenberg later passed on to the Soviets. The typing of the notes was seen as proof of Ethel Rosenberg's participation in espionage.

Ethel & Julius Rosenberg
There were certainly people both before and after their execution who thought the Rosenbergs were innocent. As time went on and documents about the case began to be declassified and released, especially the Venona Intercepts, even some of these supporters came to believe that Julius Rosenberg was indeed a Soviet spy. However, the information revealed in the declassified documents did not indicate that Ethel Rosenberg was deeply involved in espionage. Many historians have come to feel that while Ethel Rosenberg was aware of her husband's activities, she did not play a primary role in the espionage and that her activities did not rise to the level of the death penalty.

At the time of the trial a strong piece of evidence against Ethel Rosenberg was the testimony of her brother David Greenglass and his wife Ruth that she had typed up Greenglass' notes from Los Alamos. Julius Rosenberg later gave these notes to the Soviets. The prosecution claimed that the typing of the notes was evidence of her involvement in the espionage. In recent years David Greenglass has said his wife lied about Ethel typing his notes and that he also lied about the typed notes to prevent his wife from going to prison.

http://www.ccny.cuny.edu/library/Divisions/Government/rosenbergs.html#WW

I also read this. None of the people cited was a member of the Communist Party. So what is your point? Perhaps you're just trying to prove my point!

 

[Itsthetruth]

That's the essence of your argument, then? You don't see the silliness of that?

See? This is a perfect illustration of why your credibility is nil around here. How in the world did we make the leap from "...a lot of people thought the evidence...was questionable..." to "You still believe that myth!"?! Your calling it a myth doesn't make it a myth

I wrote, "the real purpose of the prosecution was to smear everyone who was a socialist, marxist or communist as "spies".

Do you still believe that people who considered themselves to be socialists, marxists or communists were Russian spies? That was a myth and lie perpetrated by McCarthyism and it seems you still believe that baloney. Is that right?

 

[musicman]

I've noticed that you seem unable to type the name, "J. Edgar Hoover". Some mental block or unfortunate tic enables you only to type, "The GAY J. Edgar Hoover". I wonder why that is. I'll bet you and your friends had a grand time, ripping that Republican blogger because he had once worked as a homosexual escort.

So, tell me, Itt - is homosexuality, then, an inherently bad thing? Or, is it only fair to use it as a cudgel against those who have commited the unpardonable offense of straying into ideological heresy?

Your worldview cannot withstand the light of day, Itt. It's hypocritical.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I wrote, "the real purpose of the prosecution was to smear everyone who was a socialist, marxist or communist as "spies".

Do you still believe that people who considered themselves to be socialists, marxists or communists were Russian spies? That was a myth and lie perpetrated by McCarthyism and it seems you still believe that baloney. Is that right?

Some of them were spies. Alger Hiss was guilty. Then there was also that jewish couple. Can't remember their names.

 

[musicman]

I wrote, "the real purpose of the prosecution was to smear everyone who was a socialist, marxist or communist as "spies".

Do you still believe that people who considered themselves to be socialists, marxists or communists were Russian spies? That was a myth and lie perpetrated by McCarthyism and it seems you still believe that baloney. Is that right?

So, the whole Red Scare was a daydream, then? Americans in the employ of the Soviet Union didn't steal for their masters the secrets of the atomic bomb? An emboldened world communist conspiracy did not then flex its newfound muscle in Korea, Hungary, Cuba, Vietnam, Czechoslovokia, Cambodia, Grenada, Nicaragua, El Salvador, etc., etc., etc.? Communist traitors to the United States are not responsible for MILLIONS of deaths?

Open your eyes, Itt. The truth might sting like a bastard sometimes, but it's never done anyone any lasting harm.

 

[Trinity]

I read it. Not even one member of the Communist Party is listed as being a Soviet spy. So what is your point?

I also read this. None of the people cited was a member of the Communist Party. So what is your point? Perhaps you're just trying to prove my point!

WHAT IS YOUR POINT! Because we have all been trying to figure that one out!!! Appearently you don't have one!

But I do! YOU ARE AN IDIOT!

 

[Said1]

I've noticed that you seem unable to type the name, "J. Edgar Hoover". Some mental block or unfortunate tic enables you only to type, "The GAY J. Edgar Hoover". I wonder why that is. I'll bet you and your friends had a grand time, ripping that Republican blogger because he had once worked as a homosexual escort.

So, tell me, Itt - is homosexuality, then, an inherently bad thing? Or, is it only fair to use it as a cudgel against those who have commited the unpardonable offense of straying into ideological heresy?

Your worldview cannot withstand the light of day, Itt. It's hypocritical.

LOL. ITSTHEGHOSTOFJEDGARHOVER.

 

[musicman]

Look - let's clear up a little snag here. You seem hung up on whether a person was a card-carrying member of the Communist Party. That's bullshit, and I think you know it's bullshit. It doesn't matter if the only things in his wallet were his musicians union card, a bail bondsman's phone number, and a hot photo of a chick in a beehive hairdo wearing a nightie. If he was in the employ of the Soviet Union, passing on information that was advantageous to the Communist cause, and harmful to the United States, he was a Communist spy. The Red Menace was real, whether you want to believe it or not.

 

[musicman]

LOL. ITSTHEGHOSTOFJEDGARHOVER.

LOL! Now I understand where the term, "giving someone a Hoover" came from!

 

[musicman]

I also read this. None of the people cited was a member of the Communist Party. So what is your point? Perhaps you're just trying to prove my point!

OK - try to stay with me now. A good spy would try to hide his affiliations, would he not? He's not going to stick a Party membership card on his forehead. This is all bullshit anyway. You're just trying to manufacture some sort of plausible argument - and failing miserably.

 

[Itsthetruth]

OK - try to stay with me now. A good spy would try to hide his affiliations, would he not? He's not going to stick a Party membership card on his forehead. This is all bullshit anyway.

It's very easy to "stay" with you. The point is you have not provided the slightest shred of evidence that these "Soviet spies" were members of the Communist Party.

Do you understand why that is? Let me enlighten you. There is no evidence because they were not members of the Communist Party!
And that wasn't because the federal government was incapable of knowing who was and who wasn't a member of the Communist Party and other left-wing organizations. The FBI had a ton of agents and informers in many organizations. They knew exactly who was a member of organizations the federal government didn't like, including the Communist Party.

In fact, spying on radicals and left-wingers was the major activity of the FBI under J. Edgar Hoover for decades!

And while the government devoted huge resources to the nation's secret police, they pretty much ignored the Mafia. Do you remember Hoover devoting much time and resources to exposing and destroying the Mafia?

Not really. Want to know why Hoover all but ignored the Mafia? I'll tell you. The Mafia "had the goods" on Hoover and knew the details of Hoover's long time companion for more than 40 years, Clyde Tolson. They even vacationed together, and both remained lifelong bachelors. I suppose you could believe they were just "poker" buddies and that Clyde Tolson was simply Hoover's "right-hand" man.

Well, I really don't know what hand Tolson favored or what they did when they played "poker". However, it seems very likely based on eye witness reports they were gay, along with the other great anti-communist witch-hunter Roy Cohn. We know for certain Cohn was gay. See the movie. And way back in the 40's, 50's and 60's if Hoover had been "exposed" as gay that would have been a real shocker and meant an immediate end to his "communist" hunting career. The mob had Hoover by the short ones. He left them alone.

Times change. Today if would be different. Cheney's daughter is gay and nobody bats an eyelash about it. That's the way it should be. Different strokes for different folks as they say.

Hoover On Vacation With His G-Man Buddy Tolson

Another Family Picture Of Hoover And Tolson

 

[musicman]

Itt:

Amazing - with all that verbiage, you still managed to avoid responding to a single one of my points. You have the art of empty noise down to a science.

 

[musicman]

It's very easy to "stay" with you. The point is you have not provided the slightest shred of evidence that these "Soviet spies" were members of the Communist Party.

]

See posts #82 and #84. It doesn't matter.

P.S. - please seek some help for your ugly homophobia. If you'd been here for any length of time at all, and read any of Bullypulpit's posts, you'd know that speaking in any way that is less than adoring about homosexuals is a sure sign of disturbing tendencies within yourself.

 

[Itsthetruth]

please seek some help for your ugly homophobia. If you'd been here for any length of time at all, and read any of Bullypulpit's posts, you'd know that speaking in any way that is less than adoring about homosexuals is a sure sign of disturbing tendencies within yourself.

Perhaps you should read people's posts before you comment on them. That's always a really good thing to do!

If you had actually read my post before commenting on it, you would have noticed that I wrote that times have changed and today hardly anyone bats an eyelash over the fact that Vice-President Cheney's daughter is gay. That's a good thing. Different strokes for different folks. I hope you agree .... or don't you?

Now some gay people like Rock Hudson, Roy Cohn and Hoover tried to hide their gayness by pretending to be super macho dudes. That doesn't happen so much anymore. Some people have said that when they hear the name J. Edgar Hoover they think of the old Hoover vacuum cleaner. They hear a big sucking sound. That was a little joke. Just a little one and it wasn't anti-gay.