McDonalds' Higher Wages = Higher Sales...

[EverCurious]

Fortunately for us, they used another customer of ours instead, so we didn't lose any work, but all the employees at the plastic place no longer work there. Our other customer invested in automation, and I don't have to tell you how many jobs were lost because of that investment.

You completely ignored that the $30 the customers saved in your example was greater wealth for Wal-Mart's customers. Wherever that money went created jobs.

1) WalMart resells items. They don't create any value. So when they saved $30, they still got exactly the same things. They were wealthier.

2) The work as you pointed out went somewhere else, it didn't go away

3) The automation was going to happen anyway

4) Yes, the company that went under lost. But consumers a whole benefited and the economy overall benefited. Change is constant in capitalism. You win by embracing it, not fighting it. That's what we did as a country that made us the greatest economic power on the planet. Now we've succumbed to fear and fight change and have doomed ourselves to Europe's fate of stagnant growth

Correct, and it's going to keep going down this path until there are so few blue collar jobs left that they all pay minimum wage.

Producers can't make products that people won't buy, so it's entirely in the hands of the American consumer. If all we are going to buy is cheap products, then the only way American companies can compete with overseas companies is to pay labor as little as they can or invest in automation wiping out those blue collar jobs.

The way things are going, I'm glad I'll be off this planet in 40 years or less. I would hate to be a young person today with no ability to get a skill and purely dependent on blue collar work.

This argument right here is part of why Trump's pushing tariffs. He believes that it'll entice folks to buy from American companies if the foreign companies are made to charge more. It's like... the "buy American" (or "buy <state>") campaigns on steroids.

I'm kinda whatever on it all personally. I'm more a "national" free trade person than just free trade. I think we have every right to fight for American businesses to make as much profit from foreign sales as the foreign businesses make off american sales. Especially if the goal is to bring businesses back to America. If Trump hits the margins right businesses will have to choose between national economies as to where they base; and America will win that battle - which means more business tax dollars to our gov and more jobs for our peeps. Yes, there'll be a slight adjustment on prices, but I don't think that increase outweighs the, albeit hopeful, benefits to America when all is said and done.

I agree but I don't know if forcing the American people to buy American products is all that American. I would like to see a change in the American consumer; something along the lines of education on how other countries maintain their labor force by buying their own products.

In some ways we are the most generous country in the world, in other ways we are the most selfish. It's like we are mesmerized by getting goods at the lowest price no matter who suffers for it. I would like to see all products sold in this country have a huge stamp on the package saying where it was made. Nobody even looks at that when they go shopping. All they look at is the price.

I disagree slightly that American's are smart enough to be given such wide berth of choice 100% of the time. While I do think that American's benefit from "the lowest price possible" (just look what it's done for quality of life, right?) BUT there is a point at which it becomes /detrimental/ to the nation - and I think we're /long/ past that point with our jobs fleeing the country in order to take advantage of lower wage costs in other nations. IF Trump can hit the margins right, we'll still have the competition to lower prices on new shit, without losing the jobs and American money that should be in /our/ economy, rather than strengthening the economies of China, Canada, Mexico, Japan, etc etc etc. I mean shit, how much of the damned planet do we have to carry? Enough already. It's time for American's to benefit on both ends, rather than just getting shafted on the jobs AND not being able to afford the lower priced goods for it.

 

[EverCurious]

Fortunately for us, they used another customer of ours instead, so we didn't lose any work, but all the employees at the plastic place no longer work there. Our other customer invested in automation, and I don't have to tell you how many jobs were lost because of that investment.

You completely ignored that the $30 the customers saved in your example was greater wealth for Wal-Mart's customers. Wherever that money went created jobs.

1) WalMart resells items. They don't create any value. So when they saved $30, they still got exactly the same things. They were wealthier.

2) The work as you pointed out went somewhere else, it didn't go away

3) The automation was going to happen anyway

4) Yes, the company that went under lost. But consumers a whole benefited and the economy overall benefited. Change is constant in capitalism. You win by embracing it, not fighting it. That's what we did as a country that made us the greatest economic power on the planet. Now we've succumbed to fear and fight change and have doomed ourselves to Europe's fate of stagnant growth

Correct, and it's going to keep going down this path until there are so few blue collar jobs left that they all pay minimum wage.

Producers can't make products that people won't buy, so it's entirely in the hands of the American consumer. If all we are going to buy is cheap products, then the only way American companies can compete with overseas companies is to pay labor as little as they can or invest in automation wiping out those blue collar jobs.

The way things are going, I'm glad I'll be off this planet in 40 years or less. I would hate to be a young person today with no ability to get a skill and purely dependent on blue collar work.

This argument right here is part of why Trump's pushing tariffs. He believes that it'll entice folks to buy from American companies if the foreign companies are made to charge more. It's like... the "buy American" (or "buy <state>") campaigns on steroids.

I'm kinda whatever on it all personally. I'm more a "national" free trade person than just free trade. I think we have every right to fight for American businesses to make as much profit from foreign sales as the foreign businesses make off american sales. Especially if the goal is to bring businesses back to America. If Trump hits the margins right businesses will have to choose between national economies as to where they base; and America will win that battle - which means more business tax dollars to our gov and more jobs for our peeps. Yes, there'll be a slight adjustment on prices, but I don't think that increase outweighs the, albeit hopeful, benefits to America when all is said and done.

I agree but I don't know if forcing the American people to buy American products is all that American. I would like to see a change in the American consumer; something along the lines of education on how other countries maintain their labor force by buying their own products.

In some ways we are the most generous country in the world, in other ways we are the most selfish. It's like we are mesmerized by getting goods at the lowest price no matter who suffers for it. I would like to see all products sold in this country have a huge stamp on the package saying where it was made. Nobody even looks at that when they go shopping. All they look at is the price.

I disagree slightly that American's are smart enough to be given such wide berth of choice 100% of the time. While I do think that American's benefit from "the lowest price possible" (just look what it's done for quality of life, right?) BUT there is a point at which it becomes /detrimental/ to the nation - and I think we're /long/ past that point with our jobs fleeing the country in order to take advantage of lower wage costs in other nations. IF Trump can hit the margins right, we'll still have the competition to lower prices on new shit, without losing the jobs and American money that should be in /our/ economy, rather than strengthening the economies of China, Canada, Mexico, Japan, etc etc etc. I mean shit, how much of the damned planet do we have to carry? Enough already. It's time for American's to benefit on both ends, rather than just getting shafted on the jobs AND not being able to afford the lower priced goods for it.

Just to expand a bit, I see national trade kind of along the same lines as how state/city taxes effect stuff. Like if one state raises their taxes too much on whatever item, then the people go next state over, right? You can even take it down to the city level, like peeps from the valley buy their gas in Anchorage because we don't have sales tax, while they do. I'd presume that say cheese is cheaper in WI than in MN so folks might be getting cheese from WI, and WI might lower even the taxes on businesses selling cheese because they know that cash from MN is coming into their pockets (instead of going to MN pockets.)

So then you have to ask. Is it "good" for them to skip out on their muni sales tax like that? What does that do to their local economy if all that sales tax money is spent in another city/state? WHY does say WI need more money that is "more important" than why MN does? Is it "hateful" or "wrong" for WI to leverage their cheese industry to take money from MN? Soo why is it "wrong" for America to leverage it's economic prowess against a foreign nation - we are $20 trillion in debt over here (and that's just the secured liabilities ya know, we're more like fucking $60 trillion in debt!) We need the damn money.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Bull shit. EVERY SINGLE TIME I go to McDonalds they cannot get my order right. No one ever asks me to take a survey.

Usually there is a web site on your receipt that you can go to for the survey. They give you a free sandwich every time you take it. It's limited to once a month though.

Sometimes a free sandwich, sometimes just a free iced coffee...but no, not limited to once a month.

That's what it says on every receipt I get from them. Maybe it's different in different places.

Which part?

 

[EverCurious]

And lest we forget, WI cheese & our massively successful farming is why Canada puts a 127% tariff on American dairy - because they want Canadian dairy to be bought so they can keep that money in Canada to spend on Canadian stuff. Same shit, and it's fine for Canada to do it as far as the left's concerned, but if America does it it's "evil" ~rolls eyes~ That's called partisan bullshit. (Something else America is very good at farming)

 

[kaz]

Fortunately for us, they used another customer of ours instead, so we didn't lose any work, but all the employees at the plastic place no longer work there. Our other customer invested in automation, and I don't have to tell you how many jobs were lost because of that investment.

You completely ignored that the $30 the customers saved in your example was greater wealth for Wal-Mart's customers. Wherever that money went created jobs.

1) WalMart resells items. They don't create any value. So when they saved $30, they still got exactly the same things. They were wealthier.

2) The work as you pointed out went somewhere else, it didn't go away

3) The automation was going to happen anyway

4) Yes, the company that went under lost. But consumers a whole benefited and the economy overall benefited. Change is constant in capitalism. You win by embracing it, not fighting it. That's what we did as a country that made us the greatest economic power on the planet. Now we've succumbed to fear and fight change and have doomed ourselves to Europe's fate of stagnant growth

Correct, and it's going to keep going down this path until there are so few blue collar jobs left that they all pay minimum wage.

Producers can't make products that people won't buy, so it's entirely in the hands of the American consumer. If all we are going to buy is cheap products, then the only way American companies can compete with overseas companies is to pay labor as little as they can or invest in automation wiping out those blue collar jobs.

The way things are going, I'm glad I'll be off this planet in 40 years or less. I would hate to be a young person today with no ability to get a skill and purely dependent on blue collar work.

This argument right here is part of why Trump's pushing tariffs. He believes that it'll entice folks to buy from American companies if the foreign companies are made to charge more. It's like... the "buy American" (or "buy <state>") campaigns on steroids.

I'm kinda whatever on it all personally. I'm more a "national" free trade person than just free trade. I think we have every right to fight for American businesses to make as much profit from foreign sales as the foreign businesses make off american sales. Especially if the goal is to bring businesses back to America. If Trump hits the margins right businesses will have to choose between national economies as to where they base; and America will win that battle - which means more business tax dollars to our gov and more jobs for our peeps. Yes, there'll be a slight adjustment on prices, but I don't think that increase outweighs the, albeit hopeful, benefits to America when all is said and done.

Tariffs are a tax on American consumers and harm our overall economy. But that's only if you believe the field of economics rather than politicians and lawyers

 

[kaz]

This is true, but armed with that information, they can get other information about you as well from other companies. Identity theft is a big thing today. I don't take any chances. I get multiple credit card offers in the mail every week; pre-approved and an application with your name already on it. I don't just throw them away, I shred any application or anything with my name on it. I even shred my utility bills that have my account number.

You have every right. But to back up, Moonbat said no one will lose their job because apparently in his mind everyone pays with cash. You've not disputed that, you agree most people actually don't pay with cash, correct?

Just by leasing the kiosk they now help employ more people than before the kiosk, so yet again your logic is nonexistent in business matters.

HTF did they employ more people than less with kiosks? Do you really think that's what businesses do, find ways to pay more people money to get the same amount of work done?

Now a technician must pull maintenance..or they lease the machine and someone is hired to maintain the machine...There are still cashiers, please tell me who lost their job over it...

You're adorable.

Moonglow: If you go from four to one cashier, there are still cashiers. So, "who lost their job over it."

It's classic

 

[kaz]

How many people don't have a debit card or credit card? I haven't used cash to buy something in 6 months.

Cash is mostly what I use, but then again, most of my tenants pay me in cash so I have to get rid of it anyway. Now that I'm short because one tenant moved, I go to the ATM for cash instead of using my card all the time. Every time you use your card, you expose your number and identity to a number of people including computer hackers who gather information on millions of people once they figure out how to break in a stores main computer.

Unless somebody points a gun at you or you lose your wallet or purse, cash is the safest way to pay for anything.

I just check my accounts online every day to see if anything looks funny. Just takes a couple of min.

I check only when I pay my bills for the week which is on Sunday. Nobody ever sees my card so it would be difficult for them to get my number. If I order something online, I would never use my debit card. I use a credit card that will cover me for possible fraud.

I never use my debit card other than ATMs. Though they have increased protection for Debit cards. The other thing is that for fraud on your credit card, worst they do is freeze your card. For Debit card, the money is out of your bank account until they put it back. Your mortgage check for example could bounce because of fraud

I have EXACTLY the same protections on my debit card that I have on a credit card. My mother's WAS cloned...the money was back in the account the next day, and the bank offered to overnight(!) a replacement card to her.

I answered that question in my post and interestingly you identified it in yours.

As I said, they have increased protection for debit cards, they didn't used to have the same rules. Other than the one difference, which is inherent in their use

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

You completely ignored that the $30 the customers saved in your example was greater wealth for Wal-Mart's customers. Wherever that money went created jobs.

1) WalMart resells items. They don't create any value. So when they saved $30, they still got exactly the same things. They were wealthier.

2) The work as you pointed out went somewhere else, it didn't go away

3) The automation was going to happen anyway

4) Yes, the company that went under lost. But consumers a whole benefited and the economy overall benefited. Change is constant in capitalism. You win by embracing it, not fighting it. That's what we did as a country that made us the greatest economic power on the planet. Now we've succumbed to fear and fight change and have doomed ourselves to Europe's fate of stagnant growth

Correct, and it's going to keep going down this path until there are so few blue collar jobs left that they all pay minimum wage.

Producers can't make products that people won't buy, so it's entirely in the hands of the American consumer. If all we are going to buy is cheap products, then the only way American companies can compete with overseas companies is to pay labor as little as they can or invest in automation wiping out those blue collar jobs.

The way things are going, I'm glad I'll be off this planet in 40 years or less. I would hate to be a young person today with no ability to get a skill and purely dependent on blue collar work.

This argument right here is part of why Trump's pushing tariffs. He believes that it'll entice folks to buy from American companies if the foreign companies are made to charge more. It's like... the "buy American" (or "buy <state>") campaigns on steroids.

I'm kinda whatever on it all personally. I'm more a "national" free trade person than just free trade. I think we have every right to fight for American businesses to make as much profit from foreign sales as the foreign businesses make off american sales. Especially if the goal is to bring businesses back to America. If Trump hits the margins right businesses will have to choose between national economies as to where they base; and America will win that battle - which means more business tax dollars to our gov and more jobs for our peeps. Yes, there'll be a slight adjustment on prices, but I don't think that increase outweighs the, albeit hopeful, benefits to America when all is said and done.

I agree but I don't know if forcing the American people to buy American products is all that American. I would like to see a change in the American consumer; something along the lines of education on how other countries maintain their labor force by buying their own products.

In some ways we are the most generous country in the world, in other ways we are the most selfish. It's like we are mesmerized by getting goods at the lowest price no matter who suffers for it. I would like to see all products sold in this country have a huge stamp on the package saying where it was made. Nobody even looks at that when they go shopping. All they look at is the price.

I disagree slightly that American's are smart enough to be given such wide berth of choice 100% of the time. While I do think that American's benefit from "the lowest price possible" (just look what it's done for quality of life, right?) BUT there is a point at which it becomes /detrimental/ to the nation - and I think we're /long/ past that point with our jobs fleeing the country in order to take advantage of lower wage costs in other nations. IF Trump can hit the margins right, we'll still have the competition to lower prices on new shit, without losing the jobs and American money that should be in /our/ economy, rather than strengthening the economies of China, Canada, Mexico, Japan, etc etc etc. I mean shit, how much of the damned planet do we have to carry? Enough already. It's time for American's to benefit on both ends, rather than just getting shafted on the jobs AND not being able to afford the lower priced goods for it.

Just to expand a bit, I see national trade kind of along the same lines as how state/city taxes effect stuff. Like if one state raises their taxes too much on whatever item, then the people go next state over, right? You can even take it down to the city level, like peeps from the valley buy their gas in Anchorage because we don't have sales tax, while they do. I'd presume that say cheese is cheaper in WI than in MN so folks might be getting cheese from WI, and WI might lower even the taxes on businesses selling cheese because they know that cash from MN is coming into their pockets (instead of going to MN pockets.)

So then you have to ask. Is it "good" for them to skip out on their muni sales tax like that? What does that do to their local economy if all that sales tax money is spent in another city/state? WHY does say WI need more money that is "more important" than why MN does? Is it "hateful" or "wrong" for WI to leverage their cheese industry to take money from MN? Soo why is it "wrong" for America to leverage it's economic prowess against a foreign nation - we are $20 trillion in debt over here (and that's just the secured liabilities ya know, we're more like fucking $60 trillion in debt!) We need the damn money.

It's hard to say because in our modern age, this is all experimental, so I'm on the fence about it. Bush tried it with steel, but quickly reversed his decision when our partners (like today) put tariffs on our exported products. He lost that game of chicken.

However Trump is a diehard businessman. He's conducted business domestically and internationally. This isn't his first time jumping in the water on something like this. I guess my problem is I would like to see more solidarity among Americans when it comes to buying products.

 

[kaz]

Fortunately for us, they used another customer of ours instead, so we didn't lose any work, but all the employees at the plastic place no longer work there. Our other customer invested in automation, and I don't have to tell you how many jobs were lost because of that investment.

You completely ignored that the $30 the customers saved in your example was greater wealth for Wal-Mart's customers. Wherever that money went created jobs.

1) WalMart resells items. They don't create any value. So when they saved $30, they still got exactly the same things. They were wealthier.

2) The work as you pointed out went somewhere else, it didn't go away

3) The automation was going to happen anyway

4) Yes, the company that went under lost. But consumers a whole benefited and the economy overall benefited. Change is constant in capitalism. You win by embracing it, not fighting it. That's what we did as a country that made us the greatest economic power on the planet. Now we've succumbed to fear and fight change and have doomed ourselves to Europe's fate of stagnant growth

Correct, and it's going to keep going down this path until there are so few blue collar jobs left that they all pay minimum wage.

Producers can't make products that people won't buy, so it's entirely in the hands of the American consumer. If all we are going to buy is cheap products, then the only way American companies can compete with overseas companies is to pay labor as little as they can or invest in automation wiping out those blue collar jobs.

The way things are going, I'm glad I'll be off this planet in 40 years or less. I would hate to be a young person today with no ability to get a skill and purely dependent on blue collar work.

This argument right here is part of why Trump's pushing tariffs. He believes that it'll entice folks to buy from American companies if the foreign companies are made to charge more. It's like... the "buy American" (or "buy <state>") campaigns on steroids.

I'm kinda whatever on it all personally. I'm more a "national" free trade person than just free trade. I think we have every right to fight for American businesses to make as much profit from foreign sales as the foreign businesses make off american sales. Especially if the goal is to bring businesses back to America. If Trump hits the margins right businesses will have to choose between national economies as to where they base; and America will win that battle - which means more business tax dollars to our gov and more jobs for our peeps. Yes, there'll be a slight adjustment on prices, but I don't think that increase outweighs the, albeit hopeful, benefits to America when all is said and done.

I agree but I don't know if forcing the American people to buy American products is all that American. I would like to see a change in the American consumer; something along the lines of education on how other countries maintain their labor force by buying their own products.

In some ways we are the most generous country in the world, in other ways we are the most selfish. It's like we are mesmerized by getting goods at the lowest price no matter who suffers for it. I would like to see all products sold in this country have a huge stamp on the package saying where it was made. Nobody even looks at that when they go shopping. All they look at is the price.

I disagree slightly that American's are smart enough to be given such wide berth of choice 100% of the time. While I do think that American's benefit from "the lowest price possible" (just look what it's done for quality of life, right?) BUT there is a point at which it becomes /detrimental/ to the nation - and I think we're /long/ past that point with our jobs fleeing the country in order to take advantage of lower wage costs in other nations. IF Trump can hit the margins right, we'll still have the competition to lower prices on new shit, without losing the jobs and American money that should be in /our/ economy, rather than strengthening the economies of China, Canada, Mexico, Japan, etc etc etc. I mean shit, how much of the damned planet do we have to carry? Enough already. It's time for American's to benefit on both ends, rather than just getting shafted on the jobs AND not being able to afford the lower priced goods for it.

That's just wrong. You're ignoring consumers in this. When you pay less for the same thing, you have more money in your pocket that you use for something else that creates jobs.

If you believe lawyers know more about economics than we (economists) do, I want to know how you know that. You'd literally learn that you're wrong in a economics 101 course and why

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

And lest we forget, WI cheese & our massively successful farming is why Canada puts a 127% tariff on American dairy - because they want Canadian dairy to be bought so they can keep that money in Canada to spend on Canadian stuff. Same shit, and it's fine for Canada to do it as far as the left's concerned, but if America does it it's "evil" ~rolls eyes~ That's called partisan bullshit. (Something else America is very good at farming)

I think that's only part of it. You have to remember that we are trying to feed the world. As such, we inject our animals with growth hormones that other countries really don't want. That stuff does get to humans. It's why Americans are getting bigger and bigger with every generation. Neither of my parents are past 5'10", but I'm 6'3". When people come off the boat from Asia or someplace like that, they are midgets compared to us.

 

[Slyhunter]

And lest we forget, WI cheese & our massively successful farming is why Canada puts a 127% tariff on American dairy - because they want Canadian dairy to be bought so they can keep that money in Canada to spend on Canadian stuff. Same shit, and it's fine for Canada to do it as far as the left's concerned, but if America does it it's "evil" ~rolls eyes~ That's called partisan bullshit. (Something else America is very good at farming)

I think that's only part of it. You have to remember that we are trying to feed the world. As such, we inject our animals with growth hormones that other countries really don't want. That stuff does get to humans. It's why Americans are getting bigger and bigger with every generation. Neither of my parents are past 5'10", but I'm 6'3". When people come off the boat from Asia or someplace like that, they are midgets compared to us.

Sterilize the poor. Be fewer people that has to be fed.

 

[kaz]

Correct, and it's going to keep going down this path until there are so few blue collar jobs left that they all pay minimum wage.

Producers can't make products that people won't buy, so it's entirely in the hands of the American consumer. If all we are going to buy is cheap products, then the only way American companies can compete with overseas companies is to pay labor as little as they can or invest in automation wiping out those blue collar jobs.

The way things are going, I'm glad I'll be off this planet in 40 years or less. I would hate to be a young person today with no ability to get a skill and purely dependent on blue collar work.

This argument right here is part of why Trump's pushing tariffs. He believes that it'll entice folks to buy from American companies if the foreign companies are made to charge more. It's like... the "buy American" (or "buy <state>") campaigns on steroids.

I'm kinda whatever on it all personally. I'm more a "national" free trade person than just free trade. I think we have every right to fight for American businesses to make as much profit from foreign sales as the foreign businesses make off american sales. Especially if the goal is to bring businesses back to America. If Trump hits the margins right businesses will have to choose between national economies as to where they base; and America will win that battle - which means more business tax dollars to our gov and more jobs for our peeps. Yes, there'll be a slight adjustment on prices, but I don't think that increase outweighs the, albeit hopeful, benefits to America when all is said and done.

I agree but I don't know if forcing the American people to buy American products is all that American. I would like to see a change in the American consumer; something along the lines of education on how other countries maintain their labor force by buying their own products.

In some ways we are the most generous country in the world, in other ways we are the most selfish. It's like we are mesmerized by getting goods at the lowest price no matter who suffers for it. I would like to see all products sold in this country have a huge stamp on the package saying where it was made. Nobody even looks at that when they go shopping. All they look at is the price.

I disagree slightly that American's are smart enough to be given such wide berth of choice 100% of the time. While I do think that American's benefit from "the lowest price possible" (just look what it's done for quality of life, right?) BUT there is a point at which it becomes /detrimental/ to the nation - and I think we're /long/ past that point with our jobs fleeing the country in order to take advantage of lower wage costs in other nations. IF Trump can hit the margins right, we'll still have the competition to lower prices on new shit, without losing the jobs and American money that should be in /our/ economy, rather than strengthening the economies of China, Canada, Mexico, Japan, etc etc etc. I mean shit, how much of the damned planet do we have to carry? Enough already. It's time for American's to benefit on both ends, rather than just getting shafted on the jobs AND not being able to afford the lower priced goods for it.

Just to expand a bit, I see national trade kind of along the same lines as how state/city taxes effect stuff. Like if one state raises their taxes too much on whatever item, then the people go next state over, right? You can even take it down to the city level, like peeps from the valley buy their gas in Anchorage because we don't have sales tax, while they do. I'd presume that say cheese is cheaper in WI than in MN so folks might be getting cheese from WI, and WI might lower even the taxes on businesses selling cheese because they know that cash from MN is coming into their pockets (instead of going to MN pockets.)

So then you have to ask. Is it "good" for them to skip out on their muni sales tax like that? What does that do to their local economy if all that sales tax money is spent in another city/state? WHY does say WI need more money that is "more important" than why MN does? Is it "hateful" or "wrong" for WI to leverage their cheese industry to take money from MN? Soo why is it "wrong" for America to leverage it's economic prowess against a foreign nation - we are $20 trillion in debt over here (and that's just the secured liabilities ya know, we're more like fucking $60 trillion in debt!) We need the damn money.

It's hard to say because in our modern age, this is all experimental, so I'm on the fence about it. Bush tried it with steel, but quickly reversed his decision when our partners (like today) put tariffs on our exported products. He lost that game of chicken.

However Trump is a diehard businessman. He's conducted business domestically and internationally. This isn't his first time jumping in the water on something like this. I guess my problem is I would like to see more solidarity among Americans when it comes to buying products.

I don't support tariffs, but if we wanted a trade war, we would win unless we're inept. Which is why Bush lost.

1) Our economy is larger than the rest of the G7 ... combined ... That they are just going to cut us out and not trade with us is nonsense

2) They have higher tariffs now. The impact to their economies would be far higher than the impact to ours of cutting off trade. We would both lose, just they would lose a lot harder.

One thing Trump said I like though is he offered that if other countries want to make deals with us eliminating all trade barriers both ways, then he's in

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

This argument right here is part of why Trump's pushing tariffs. He believes that it'll entice folks to buy from American companies if the foreign companies are made to charge more. It's like... the "buy American" (or "buy <state>") campaigns on steroids.

I'm kinda whatever on it all personally. I'm more a "national" free trade person than just free trade. I think we have every right to fight for American businesses to make as much profit from foreign sales as the foreign businesses make off american sales. Especially if the goal is to bring businesses back to America. If Trump hits the margins right businesses will have to choose between national economies as to where they base; and America will win that battle - which means more business tax dollars to our gov and more jobs for our peeps. Yes, there'll be a slight adjustment on prices, but I don't think that increase outweighs the, albeit hopeful, benefits to America when all is said and done.

I agree but I don't know if forcing the American people to buy American products is all that American. I would like to see a change in the American consumer; something along the lines of education on how other countries maintain their labor force by buying their own products.

In some ways we are the most generous country in the world, in other ways we are the most selfish. It's like we are mesmerized by getting goods at the lowest price no matter who suffers for it. I would like to see all products sold in this country have a huge stamp on the package saying where it was made. Nobody even looks at that when they go shopping. All they look at is the price.

I disagree slightly that American's are smart enough to be given such wide berth of choice 100% of the time. While I do think that American's benefit from "the lowest price possible" (just look what it's done for quality of life, right?) BUT there is a point at which it becomes /detrimental/ to the nation - and I think we're /long/ past that point with our jobs fleeing the country in order to take advantage of lower wage costs in other nations. IF Trump can hit the margins right, we'll still have the competition to lower prices on new shit, without losing the jobs and American money that should be in /our/ economy, rather than strengthening the economies of China, Canada, Mexico, Japan, etc etc etc. I mean shit, how much of the damned planet do we have to carry? Enough already. It's time for American's to benefit on both ends, rather than just getting shafted on the jobs AND not being able to afford the lower priced goods for it.

Just to expand a bit, I see national trade kind of along the same lines as how state/city taxes effect stuff. Like if one state raises their taxes too much on whatever item, then the people go next state over, right? You can even take it down to the city level, like peeps from the valley buy their gas in Anchorage because we don't have sales tax, while they do. I'd presume that say cheese is cheaper in WI than in MN so folks might be getting cheese from WI, and WI might lower even the taxes on businesses selling cheese because they know that cash from MN is coming into their pockets (instead of going to MN pockets.)

So then you have to ask. Is it "good" for them to skip out on their muni sales tax like that? What does that do to their local economy if all that sales tax money is spent in another city/state? WHY does say WI need more money that is "more important" than why MN does? Is it "hateful" or "wrong" for WI to leverage their cheese industry to take money from MN? Soo why is it "wrong" for America to leverage it's economic prowess against a foreign nation - we are $20 trillion in debt over here (and that's just the secured liabilities ya know, we're more like fucking $60 trillion in debt!) We need the damn money.

It's hard to say because in our modern age, this is all experimental, so I'm on the fence about it. Bush tried it with steel, but quickly reversed his decision when our partners (like today) put tariffs on our exported products. He lost that game of chicken.

However Trump is a diehard businessman. He's conducted business domestically and internationally. This isn't his first time jumping in the water on something like this. I guess my problem is I would like to see more solidarity among Americans when it comes to buying products.

I don't support tariffs, but if we wanted a trade war, we would win unless we're inept. Which is why Bush lost.

1) Our economy is larger than the rest of the G7 ... combined ... That they are just going to cut us out and not trade with us is nonsense

2) They have higher tariffs now. The impact to their economies would be far higher than the impact to ours of cutting off trade. We would both lose, just they would lose a lot harder.

One thing Trump said I like though is he offered that if other countries want to make deals with us eliminating all trade barriers both ways, then he's in

Bush jumped out too quickly because of fear. Something like tariffs needs time before we see the exact results.

I think this is the same thing, another game of chicken to see who will drive off the road first. I'll sit back and wait to see the results. In the meantime, I don't think it will hurt our economy all that much. Bigger ticket items perhaps, but not your average pair of pants and tee shirt. It won't be that noticeable.

 

[kaz]

I agree but I don't know if forcing the American people to buy American products is all that American. I would like to see a change in the American consumer; something along the lines of education on how other countries maintain their labor force by buying their own products.

In some ways we are the most generous country in the world, in other ways we are the most selfish. It's like we are mesmerized by getting goods at the lowest price no matter who suffers for it. I would like to see all products sold in this country have a huge stamp on the package saying where it was made. Nobody even looks at that when they go shopping. All they look at is the price.

I disagree slightly that American's are smart enough to be given such wide berth of choice 100% of the time. While I do think that American's benefit from "the lowest price possible" (just look what it's done for quality of life, right?) BUT there is a point at which it becomes /detrimental/ to the nation - and I think we're /long/ past that point with our jobs fleeing the country in order to take advantage of lower wage costs in other nations. IF Trump can hit the margins right, we'll still have the competition to lower prices on new shit, without losing the jobs and American money that should be in /our/ economy, rather than strengthening the economies of China, Canada, Mexico, Japan, etc etc etc. I mean shit, how much of the damned planet do we have to carry? Enough already. It's time for American's to benefit on both ends, rather than just getting shafted on the jobs AND not being able to afford the lower priced goods for it.

Just to expand a bit, I see national trade kind of along the same lines as how state/city taxes effect stuff. Like if one state raises their taxes too much on whatever item, then the people go next state over, right? You can even take it down to the city level, like peeps from the valley buy their gas in Anchorage because we don't have sales tax, while they do. I'd presume that say cheese is cheaper in WI than in MN so folks might be getting cheese from WI, and WI might lower even the taxes on businesses selling cheese because they know that cash from MN is coming into their pockets (instead of going to MN pockets.)

So then you have to ask. Is it "good" for them to skip out on their muni sales tax like that? What does that do to their local economy if all that sales tax money is spent in another city/state? WHY does say WI need more money that is "more important" than why MN does? Is it "hateful" or "wrong" for WI to leverage their cheese industry to take money from MN? Soo why is it "wrong" for America to leverage it's economic prowess against a foreign nation - we are $20 trillion in debt over here (and that's just the secured liabilities ya know, we're more like fucking $60 trillion in debt!) We need the damn money.

It's hard to say because in our modern age, this is all experimental, so I'm on the fence about it. Bush tried it with steel, but quickly reversed his decision when our partners (like today) put tariffs on our exported products. He lost that game of chicken.

However Trump is a diehard businessman. He's conducted business domestically and internationally. This isn't his first time jumping in the water on something like this. I guess my problem is I would like to see more solidarity among Americans when it comes to buying products.

I don't support tariffs, but if we wanted a trade war, we would win unless we're inept. Which is why Bush lost.

1) Our economy is larger than the rest of the G7 ... combined ... That they are just going to cut us out and not trade with us is nonsense

2) They have higher tariffs now. The impact to their economies would be far higher than the impact to ours of cutting off trade. We would both lose, just they would lose a lot harder.

One thing Trump said I like though is he offered that if other countries want to make deals with us eliminating all trade barriers both ways, then he's in

Bush jumped out too quickly because of fear. Something like tariffs needs time before we see the exact results.

I think this is the same thing, another game of chicken to see who will drive off the road first. I'll sit back and wait to see the results. In the meantime, I don't think it will hurt our economy all that much. Bigger ticket items perhaps, but not your average pair of pants and tee shirt. It won't be that noticeable.

You're right that it takes time and that it's a game of chicken is exactly right. The time comes in because the other country needs to be convinced we mean it. Something Bush could never pull off

 

[PredFan]

Bull shit. EVERY SINGLE TIME I go to McDonalds they cannot get my order right. No one ever asks me to take a survey.

Yes, they do.

You were there with me in my car? You heard them ask? Funny, I didn’t see you.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I disagree slightly that American's are smart enough to be given such wide berth of choice 100% of the time. While I do think that American's benefit from "the lowest price possible" (just look what it's done for quality of life, right?) BUT there is a point at which it becomes /detrimental/ to the nation - and I think we're /long/ past that point with our jobs fleeing the country in order to take advantage of lower wage costs in other nations. IF Trump can hit the margins right, we'll still have the competition to lower prices on new shit, without losing the jobs and American money that should be in /our/ economy, rather than strengthening the economies of China, Canada, Mexico, Japan, etc etc etc. I mean shit, how much of the damned planet do we have to carry? Enough already. It's time for American's to benefit on both ends, rather than just getting shafted on the jobs AND not being able to afford the lower priced goods for it.

Just to expand a bit, I see national trade kind of along the same lines as how state/city taxes effect stuff. Like if one state raises their taxes too much on whatever item, then the people go next state over, right? You can even take it down to the city level, like peeps from the valley buy their gas in Anchorage because we don't have sales tax, while they do. I'd presume that say cheese is cheaper in WI than in MN so folks might be getting cheese from WI, and WI might lower even the taxes on businesses selling cheese because they know that cash from MN is coming into their pockets (instead of going to MN pockets.)

So then you have to ask. Is it "good" for them to skip out on their muni sales tax like that? What does that do to their local economy if all that sales tax money is spent in another city/state? WHY does say WI need more money that is "more important" than why MN does? Is it "hateful" or "wrong" for WI to leverage their cheese industry to take money from MN? Soo why is it "wrong" for America to leverage it's economic prowess against a foreign nation - we are $20 trillion in debt over here (and that's just the secured liabilities ya know, we're more like fucking $60 trillion in debt!) We need the damn money.

It's hard to say because in our modern age, this is all experimental, so I'm on the fence about it. Bush tried it with steel, but quickly reversed his decision when our partners (like today) put tariffs on our exported products. He lost that game of chicken.

However Trump is a diehard businessman. He's conducted business domestically and internationally. This isn't his first time jumping in the water on something like this. I guess my problem is I would like to see more solidarity among Americans when it comes to buying products.

I don't support tariffs, but if we wanted a trade war, we would win unless we're inept. Which is why Bush lost.

1) Our economy is larger than the rest of the G7 ... combined ... That they are just going to cut us out and not trade with us is nonsense

2) They have higher tariffs now. The impact to their economies would be far higher than the impact to ours of cutting off trade. We would both lose, just they would lose a lot harder.

One thing Trump said I like though is he offered that if other countries want to make deals with us eliminating all trade barriers both ways, then he's in

Bush jumped out too quickly because of fear. Something like tariffs needs time before we see the exact results.

I think this is the same thing, another game of chicken to see who will drive off the road first. I'll sit back and wait to see the results. In the meantime, I don't think it will hurt our economy all that much. Bigger ticket items perhaps, but not your average pair of pants and tee shirt. It won't be that noticeable.

You're right that it takes time and that it's a game of chicken is exactly right. The time comes in because the other country needs to be convinced we mean it. Something Bush could never pull off

Trump is a different character and I think others realize that now. This will have an economic impact on our country but also the countries that are doing the same right back. It boils down to which one will negatively affected to make the first move. I think we have an advantage there because our economy hasn't been this good since before 2000.

 

[Slyhunter]

Bull shit. EVERY SINGLE TIME I go to McDonalds they cannot get my order right. No one ever asks me to take a survey.

Yes, they do.

You were there with me in my car? You heard them ask? Funny, I didn’t see you.

It's on your receipt. They ask everyone to take a survey.

 

[PredFan]

Bull shit. EVERY SINGLE TIME I go to McDonalds they cannot get my order right. No one ever asks me to take a survey.

Yes, they do.

You were there with me in my car? You heard them ask? Funny, I didn’t see you.

It's on your receipt. They ask everyone to take a survey.

I did not know, so when I said “I was never asked” that is the truth. No one ever actually said: “Would you like to take a survey?”

 

[hadit]

Fortunately for us, they used another customer of ours instead, so we didn't lose any work, but all the employees at the plastic place no longer work there. Our other customer invested in automation, and I don't have to tell you how many jobs were lost because of that investment.

You completely ignored that the $30 the customers saved in your example was greater wealth for Wal-Mart's customers. Wherever that money went created jobs.

1) WalMart resells items. They don't create any value. So when they saved $30, they still got exactly the same things. They were wealthier.

2) The work as you pointed out went somewhere else, it didn't go away

3) The automation was going to happen anyway

4) Yes, the company that went under lost. But consumers a whole benefited and the economy overall benefited. Change is constant in capitalism. You win by embracing it, not fighting it. That's what we did as a country that made us the greatest economic power on the planet. Now we've succumbed to fear and fight change and have doomed ourselves to Europe's fate of stagnant growth

Correct, and it's going to keep going down this path until there are so few blue collar jobs left that they all pay minimum wage.

Producers can't make products that people won't buy, so it's entirely in the hands of the American consumer. If all we are going to buy is cheap products, then the only way American companies can compete with overseas companies is to pay labor as little as they can or invest in automation wiping out those blue collar jobs.

The way things are going, I'm glad I'll be off this planet in 40 years or less. I would hate to be a young person today with no ability to get a skill and purely dependent on blue collar work.

This argument right here is part of why Trump's pushing tariffs. He believes that it'll entice folks to buy from American companies if the foreign companies are made to charge more. It's like... the "buy American" (or "buy <state>") campaigns on steroids.

I'm kinda whatever on it all personally. I'm more a "national" free trade person than just free trade. I think we have every right to fight for American businesses to make as much profit from foreign sales as the foreign businesses make off american sales. Especially if the goal is to bring businesses back to America. If Trump hits the margins right businesses will have to choose between national economies as to where they base; and America will win that battle - which means more business tax dollars to our gov and more jobs for our peeps. Yes, there'll be a slight adjustment on prices, but I don't think that increase outweighs the, albeit hopeful, benefits to America when all is said and done.

I agree but I don't know if forcing the American people to buy American products is all that American. I would like to see a change in the American consumer; something along the lines of education on how other countries maintain their labor force by buying their own products.

In some ways we are the most generous country in the world, in other ways we are the most selfish. It's like we are mesmerized by getting goods at the lowest price no matter who suffers for it. I would like to see all products sold in this country have a huge stamp on the package saying where it was made. Nobody even looks at that when they go shopping. All they look at is the price.

That can work only as long as the product was entirely made in one country. Look into what it takes to produce a pencil. Products from around the world are combined to make it. The stamp on the package would be as big as the pencil itself.

In today's world, there are very few products that can truly claim to be made in any one country.

Basically, you can only say that final assembly was done in a certain country, and boycotting products assembled in a certain country could end up impacting another that contributed parts.

Let's say for example that you want to boycott toys assembled in China. What about the countries that produced the plastics used, or the presses that give the toys their shape? How about the paint suppliers? If those products are produced in another country, you're impacting them as well.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Fortunately for us, they used another customer of ours instead, so we didn't lose any work, but all the employees at the plastic place no longer work there. Our other customer invested in automation, and I don't have to tell you how many jobs were lost because of that investment.

You completely ignored that the $30 the customers saved in your example was greater wealth for Wal-Mart's customers. Wherever that money went created jobs.

1) WalMart resells items. They don't create any value. So when they saved $30, they still got exactly the same things. They were wealthier.

2) The work as you pointed out went somewhere else, it didn't go away

3) The automation was going to happen anyway

4) Yes, the company that went under lost. But consumers a whole benefited and the economy overall benefited. Change is constant in capitalism. You win by embracing it, not fighting it. That's what we did as a country that made us the greatest economic power on the planet. Now we've succumbed to fear and fight change and have doomed ourselves to Europe's fate of stagnant growth

Correct, and it's going to keep going down this path until there are so few blue collar jobs left that they all pay minimum wage.

Producers can't make products that people won't buy, so it's entirely in the hands of the American consumer. If all we are going to buy is cheap products, then the only way American companies can compete with overseas companies is to pay labor as little as they can or invest in automation wiping out those blue collar jobs.

The way things are going, I'm glad I'll be off this planet in 40 years or less. I would hate to be a young person today with no ability to get a skill and purely dependent on blue collar work.

This argument right here is part of why Trump's pushing tariffs. He believes that it'll entice folks to buy from American companies if the foreign companies are made to charge more. It's like... the "buy American" (or "buy <state>") campaigns on steroids.

I'm kinda whatever on it all personally. I'm more a "national" free trade person than just free trade. I think we have every right to fight for American businesses to make as much profit from foreign sales as the foreign businesses make off american sales. Especially if the goal is to bring businesses back to America. If Trump hits the margins right businesses will have to choose between national economies as to where they base; and America will win that battle - which means more business tax dollars to our gov and more jobs for our peeps. Yes, there'll be a slight adjustment on prices, but I don't think that increase outweighs the, albeit hopeful, benefits to America when all is said and done.

I agree but I don't know if forcing the American people to buy American products is all that American. I would like to see a change in the American consumer; something along the lines of education on how other countries maintain their labor force by buying their own products.

In some ways we are the most generous country in the world, in other ways we are the most selfish. It's like we are mesmerized by getting goods at the lowest price no matter who suffers for it. I would like to see all products sold in this country have a huge stamp on the package saying where it was made. Nobody even looks at that when they go shopping. All they look at is the price.

That can work only as long as the product was entirely made in one country. Look into what it takes to produce a pencil. Products from around the world are combined to make it. The stamp on the package would be as big as the pencil itself.

In today's world, there are very few products that can truly claim to be made in any one country.

Basically, you can only say that final assembly was done in a certain country, and boycotting products assembled in a certain country could end up impacting another that contributed parts.

Let's say for example that you want to boycott toys assembled in China. What about the countries that produced the plastics used, or the presses that give the toys their shape? How about the paint suppliers? If those products are produced in another country, you're impacting them as well.

That's true, but even if part or most of it was made in the USA, that's a big help. As for buying products overseas to produce, that shouldn't be a problem either. If consumers are boycotting your product for that reason, get American suppliers.

I always try to buy American when possible. I don't go to self checkouts. I'm heading for grocery shopping right now, and I won't step foot in a self checkout line. I'll wait the extra time and have a cashier check me out. It keeps them working. I'm willing to pay a little more for my doughnuts to make sure somebody else has a job.