turzovka
Gold Member
- Nov 20, 2012
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All this certainty that who will be saved and who will not.
All this certainty what it takes to be saved and how easily it sounds.
All this certainty that at the moment of death heaven is guaranteed and immediate.
None of that is found in the Catholic Church. We go about our trials more as St. Paul said to work out our own salvation in fear and trembling. Philipians 2:12
I will also point out Acts 10:34-35 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
Heaven is not the exclusive domain of the sincere Christian.
Nor is Scripture the be all and end all of our Lord witnessing to the world. The Church has as much or more authority than Holy Scripture itself. As Jesus said Himself in Matthew 16!
Finally, purgatory is a reality as much as heaven and hell. This is where Gods justice and mercy are meted out and all becomes perfect and just. The sin of presumption is that the believer believes his accepting Christ is all that is necessary for his defiled self to be granted immediate entrance into the kingdom upon death. And yet Revelations says nothing defiled shall enter the kingdom.
If Scripture is your only defense to those who reject purgatory, then consider Scripture:
Matthew 5:23-26
"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Reconcile with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid up the last penny.
[Jesus is assuring us (truly I say to you) that we will pay (be imprisoned) for a portion our transgressions until we have paid the last penny if we do not forgive others or obey. The key word is until. It is clear that once we have paid for our sins, then we will be released from our prison. That is not Hell because Hell is eternal. This is not an earthly reference as many who are to be saved have died without fulfilling all the requirements this passage implies. This is referring to purgatory where you will be eventually released.]
Luke 12:45-48
But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk: the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
[The one slave who was not as guilty because he was somewhat ignorant of the gravity of his sins will receive less lashes. Note, he will still be punished, but not as severely. This is clearly not talking about hell, it is about some punishment that is less than eternal. It is purgatory once again. Different degrees of punishment which is how many have described it. Also, to whom more has been given (i.e. knowledge, riches, revelation, opportunity, etc.) more will be required; otherwise something consequential results. ]
1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
[Saved, but still will suffer loss as yet through fire. Protestants can argue this is some earthly punishment, not an afterlife matter, but I, and the Catholic Church, say not so. This is so much better explained as a purgatory sentence. Purgatory is a cleansing fire.]
Matthew 12:32
Whoever says anything against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever says anything against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
[To me this further indicates that certain sins will cause some to suffer punishment eternally, no doubt. However, more importantly, this indicates that there is forgiveness for some in the age to come. For who? Those in heaven? They need no more forgiveness? For those in hell? No, because hell is eternal and there is no forgiveness at that point. It is for those in purgatory in the age that still awaits them.]
Luke 7:47
I tell you, that is why her many sins are forgiven --- because of her great love. Little is forgiven the one whose love is small.
[To me, this points to a one having some sentence in Purgatory in the age to come. For those who forgave little on earth, God is saying he will forgive little when judging you. Hes not saying he will forgive nothing, but something. In other words, he is lessening your debt, not totally removing it, and not totally condemning you either.]
These passages above are demanding more than just faith from us, more than just accepting Jesus as our Savior. To think we are allowed into heaven without anything more than just accepting some idea as truth, and then having license to live our life as carefree as desired I would think would be detestable to God. You may not be condemned, but we will need to be purified for our carelessness and sin of presuming we deserve immediate entry into heaven which is all pure and holy. As Revelations 21 says nothing defiled shall enter the kingdom.
All this certainty what it takes to be saved and how easily it sounds.
All this certainty that at the moment of death heaven is guaranteed and immediate.
None of that is found in the Catholic Church. We go about our trials more as St. Paul said to work out our own salvation in fear and trembling. Philipians 2:12
I will also point out Acts 10:34-35 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
Heaven is not the exclusive domain of the sincere Christian.
Nor is Scripture the be all and end all of our Lord witnessing to the world. The Church has as much or more authority than Holy Scripture itself. As Jesus said Himself in Matthew 16!
Finally, purgatory is a reality as much as heaven and hell. This is where Gods justice and mercy are meted out and all becomes perfect and just. The sin of presumption is that the believer believes his accepting Christ is all that is necessary for his defiled self to be granted immediate entrance into the kingdom upon death. And yet Revelations says nothing defiled shall enter the kingdom.
If Scripture is your only defense to those who reject purgatory, then consider Scripture:
Matthew 5:23-26
"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Reconcile with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid up the last penny.
[Jesus is assuring us (truly I say to you) that we will pay (be imprisoned) for a portion our transgressions until we have paid the last penny if we do not forgive others or obey. The key word is until. It is clear that once we have paid for our sins, then we will be released from our prison. That is not Hell because Hell is eternal. This is not an earthly reference as many who are to be saved have died without fulfilling all the requirements this passage implies. This is referring to purgatory where you will be eventually released.]
Luke 12:45-48
But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk: the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
[The one slave who was not as guilty because he was somewhat ignorant of the gravity of his sins will receive less lashes. Note, he will still be punished, but not as severely. This is clearly not talking about hell, it is about some punishment that is less than eternal. It is purgatory once again. Different degrees of punishment which is how many have described it. Also, to whom more has been given (i.e. knowledge, riches, revelation, opportunity, etc.) more will be required; otherwise something consequential results. ]
1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
[Saved, but still will suffer loss as yet through fire. Protestants can argue this is some earthly punishment, not an afterlife matter, but I, and the Catholic Church, say not so. This is so much better explained as a purgatory sentence. Purgatory is a cleansing fire.]
Matthew 12:32
Whoever says anything against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever says anything against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
[To me this further indicates that certain sins will cause some to suffer punishment eternally, no doubt. However, more importantly, this indicates that there is forgiveness for some in the age to come. For who? Those in heaven? They need no more forgiveness? For those in hell? No, because hell is eternal and there is no forgiveness at that point. It is for those in purgatory in the age that still awaits them.]
Luke 7:47
I tell you, that is why her many sins are forgiven --- because of her great love. Little is forgiven the one whose love is small.
[To me, this points to a one having some sentence in Purgatory in the age to come. For those who forgave little on earth, God is saying he will forgive little when judging you. Hes not saying he will forgive nothing, but something. In other words, he is lessening your debt, not totally removing it, and not totally condemning you either.]
These passages above are demanding more than just faith from us, more than just accepting Jesus as our Savior. To think we are allowed into heaven without anything more than just accepting some idea as truth, and then having license to live our life as carefree as desired I would think would be detestable to God. You may not be condemned, but we will need to be purified for our carelessness and sin of presuming we deserve immediate entry into heaven which is all pure and holy. As Revelations 21 says nothing defiled shall enter the kingdom.
