Miracles are proof of SOMETHING!

[ding]

OK so what happened in the 10 seconds before the big bang

No thing existed. God is no thing.

 

[Blues Man]

At the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit. If the material world were not created by spirit, then everything which has occurred since the beginning of space and time are products of the material world. Everything which is incorporeal proceeded from the corporeal. There is no middle ground. There is no other option. Either the material world was created by spirit or it wasn't. All other options will simplify to one of these two lowest common denominators which are mutually exclusive.

So we need to start from that position and examine the evidence we have at our disposal which is creation itself. Specifically, the laws of nature; physical, biological and moral. And how space and time has evolved. And how we perceive God.

If we perceive God to be some magical fairy tale then everything we see will skew to that result. There won't be one single thing that we will agree with or accept. Whereas if we were trying to objectively analyze the evidence for spirit creating the material world we would listen to the whole argument and not look for trivial things to nitpick.

But since this is my argument we will use my perception of God. Which is there no thing that can describe God because God is no thing. God is not matter and energy like us and God exists outside of our four dimension space time. In fact the premise is that God is no thing. That God is a spirit. A spirit is no thing. Being things we can't possibly relate to being no things. A two dimensional being would have an easier time trying to understand our third dimension than we - a four dimensional being - would in trying to understand a multi-dimensional being outside of our space time. The closest I can come to and later confirm with the physical laws is that God is consciousness. That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

Once again you are attributing what we can't explain to some divine being.

it is more than likely that the limitation of our own brains will prevent us from ever being able to begin to understand the processes that were part of the inception of the universe as we know it.

No gods needed to explain that.

 

[ding]

No we only know what happened immediately AFTER the universe came to be. We know nothing of the time immediately before.

We know that matter and energy cannot be an eternal source of creating universes because matter and energy create space and time and as time approaches infinity (aka eternity) matte an energy will equilibrate and reach thermal equilibrium.

We know that the creation of the universe followed the laws of nature which means the laws of nature were in place before the universe was created.

We know that the laws of nature are no thing and as such are not thermodynamically limited like matter and energy.

Therefore, the only thing that could exist eternally is no thing. God is no thing. Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

 

[Blues Man]

No thing existed. God is no thing.

Prove it. No one else has so i doubt you can.

 

[ding]

Once again you are attributing what we can't explain to some divine being.

it is more than likely that the limitation of our own brains will prevent us from ever being able to begin to understand the processes that were part of the inception of the universe as we know it.

No gods needed to explain that.

I just explained it to you in exquisite detail. The only thing that can exist eternally is no thing. God is no thing. Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

 

[ding]

Prove it. No one else has so i doubt you can.

It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

We have good reason to believe that we find ourselves in a universe permeated with life, in which life arises inevitably, given enough time, wherever the conditions exist that make it possible. Yet were any one of a number of the physical properties of our universe otherwise - some of them basic, others seemingly trivial, almost accidental - that life, which seems now to be so prevalent, would become impossible, here or anywhere. It takes no great imagination to conceive of other possible universes, each stable and workable in itself, yet lifeless. How is it that, with so many other apparent options, we are in a universe that possesses just that peculiar nexus of properties that breeds beings that know and create.

The biological laws are such that life is programmed to survive and multiply which is a requisite for intelligence to arise. If the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence then a preference in nature for it had to exist. The Laws of Nature are such that the potential for intelligence to existed the moment space and time were created. One can argue that given the laws of nature and the size of the universe that intelligence arising was inevitable. One can also argue that creating intelligence from nothing defies the Second Law of Entropy. That creating intelligence from nothing increases order within the universe. It actually doesn't because usable energy was lost along the way as a cost of creating order from disorder. But it is nature overriding it's tendency for ever increasing disorder that interests me and raises my suspicions to look deeper and to take seriously the proposition that a mind without a body created the material world so that minds with bodies could create too.

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

All we have done so far is to make a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we assume that everything I have described was just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

 

[Blues Man]

We know that matter and energy cannot be an eternal source of creating universes because matter and energy create space and time and as time approaches infinity (aka eternity) matte an energy will equilibrate and reach thermal equilibrium.

We know that the creation of the universe followed the laws of nature which means the laws of nature were in place before the universe was created.

We know that the laws of nature are no thing and as such are not thermodynamically limited like matter and energy.

Therefore, the only thing that could exist eternally is no thing. God is no thing. Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

We don't know the creation of the universe followed any laws of physics as we know them.

We already know that those laws break down in black holes. The processes involved prior to the inception of the universe are unknown so we can't say they followed what we call laws of physics

 

[Blues Man]

I just explained it to you in exquisite detail. The only thing that can exist eternally is no thing. God is no thing. Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

Mind does not exist in a vacuum.

Mind is the function of the brain. No brain, no mind.

 

[ding]

We don't know the creation of the universe followed any laws of physics as we know them.

We already know that those laws break down in black holes. The processes involved prior to the inception of the universe are unknown so we can't say they followed what we call laws of physics

Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1404.1207.pdf

 

[ding]

Mind does not exist in a vacuum.

Mind is the function of the brain. No brain, no mind.

The universe is made of mind stuff. Everything is information. Information is mind stuff.

 

[Blues Man]

Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1404.1207.pdf

In this description

You assume this description is the only one rather than the only one we can conceive of.

 

[Blues Man]

The universe is made of mind stuff. Everything is information. Information is mind stuff.

information alone is not a mind.

 

[ding]

In this description

You assume this description is the only one rather than the only one we can conceive of.

It's the only one that explains what we observe and is the basis for the big bang. Do you have another one?

 

[ding]

information alone is not a mind.

What we perceive as reality is a product of consciousness. The behavior of sub atomic particles - for that matter all particles and objects - is inextricably linked to the presence of a conscious observer. Without a conscious observer they exist in an undetermined state of probability waves. Without consciousness matter dwells in an undetermined state of probability. Any universe preceding consciousness only existed in a probability state. The universe is explainable only through consciousness. The universe is finely tuned to support consciousness because consciousness created the universe, not the other way around.

 

[Blues Man]

It's the only one that explains what we observe and is the basis for the big bang. Do you have another one?

We can't explain 95% of the matter and energy we have evidence of.

 

[ding]

We can't explain 95% of the matter and energy we have evidence of.

So that's a no? You don't have another explanation?

Because here's a peer reviewed paper for my explanation.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1404.1207.pdf

 

[Blues Man]

What we perceive as reality is a product of consciousness. The behavior of sub atomic particles - for that matter all particles and objects - is inextricably linked to the presence of a conscious observer. Without a conscious observer they exist in an undetermined state of probability waves. Without consciousness matter dwells in an undetermined state of probability. Any universe preceding consciousness only existed in a probability state. The universe is explainable only through consciousness. The universe is finely tuned to support consciousness because consciousness created the universe, not the other way around.

No what we perceive as reality is an approximation of reality.

We do not perceive the universe as it actually is which is why we cannot know everything about it and that includes how it came to be.

 

[Blues Man]

So that's a no? You don't have another explanation?

Because here's a peer reviewed paper for my explanation.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1404.1207.pdf

Like I said this only applies to this one description.

When we know and understand the 95% of the universe we are completely clueless about get back to me.

 

[ding]

No what we perceive as reality is an approximation of reality.

We do not perceive the universe as it actually is which is why we cannot know everything about it and that includes how it came to be.

Given that everything is made manifest by mind one must recognize that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness. Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff.

It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create. This is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so and imbued His creation with His attributes.

 

[ding]

Like I said this only applies to this one description.

When we know and understand the 95% of the universe we are completely clueless about get back to me.

You mean the only one that fits the data. That you want to dismiss because it offends your worldview?