More History Before 1967

[toastman]

Well it could have been summer vacation time at the Riviera.

Or maybe there could have been a war going on

Could be. Israel did start a war about that time.

Israel attacked 5 countries ?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Or maybe there could have been a war going on

Could be. Israel did start a war about that time.

Israel attacked 5 countries ?

When did I say that?

 

[Auteur]

The bold sentence is false. Remember, it was the Arab countries that invaded Israel with the threat of annihilation (a highly documented fact). What the Jews realized was that they needed to gain more territory to defend themselves. This is referred to as military advancement

The need to remove a large proportion of the Palestinian population was a problem long considered, for which an inevitable result was concluded. This has been documented by Israeli as well as Arab historians.

After 40 years or so of increasing violence, culminating in the ethnic cleansing of '48, it's safe to say everyone was at risk. The reason behind this though is the targeting of Palestine as a future Jewish state, despite the wishes of those in the region, and not some innate blood lust on the part of Arabs.

David Ben-Gurion is quoted below:


"In the area allocated to the Jewish State there are not more than 520,000 Jews and about 350,000 non-Jews, mostly Arabs. Together with the Jews of Jerusalem, the total population of the Jewish State at the time of its establishment, will be about one million, including almost 40% non-Jews. such a [population] composition does not provide a stable basis for a Jewish State. This [demographic] fact must be viewed in all its clarity and acuteness. With such a [population] composition, there cannot even be absolute certainty that control will remain in the hands of the Jewish majority .... There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60%." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 176)

According to Sefer Toldot Ha-Haganah, the official history of the Haganah, it clearly stated how Palestinian villages and population should be dealt with. It stated:

"[Palestinian Arab] villages inside the Jewish state that resist 'should be destroyed .... and their inhabitants expelled beyond the borders of the Jewish state.' Meanwhile, 'Palestinian residents of the urban quarters which dominate access to or egress from towns should be expelled beyond the borders of the Jewish state in the event of their resistance.' " (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 178)

Again, had it not been for the hostility and aggression of the war-mongering Arabs, Jewish military advances would not have happened. What you are basically saying is that if the Arabs had acted with courtesy when Israel declared independence instead of threatening annihilation , then Israel would have attacked the Palestinian Arabs for no reason but to take their land. That is just plain ridiculous

The point of the quote is that the removal of the Palestinian population was long contemplated, and was fairly successfully carried out. How could it be any other way? This was an already populated country, and serious resistance to further Jewish immigration had arose as early as 1920, if not before. We are not talking about military advances here. Jewish forces systematically went to Arab villages, and forced inhabitants out, sometimes killing and committing other crimes against civilians. The Arab military invasion did not occur before this process, it happened at the height of it, which is indeed one of the reasons they were there.

These are inconvenient facts for present day Israelis, but to their credit, many, in academic circles anyway, have owned up to. Admitting the truth of the past is the only way to a true peace.

 

[toastman]

Could be. Israel did start a war about that time.

Israel attacked 5 countries ?

When did I say that?

You are making it seem as if Israel started a war with Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinians Arabs.
1948 Arab?Israeli War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You always always refrain from bringing up the 5 Arab nations that were belligerents in the 48-49 Arab-Israeli war.
Since you like to speak of foreigners, I just showed you how foreigners from 5 different countries attacked the tiny state of Israel

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel attacked 5 countries ?

When did I say that?

You are making it seem as if Israel started a war with Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinians Arabs.
1948 Arab?Israeli War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You always always refrain from bringing up the 5 Arab nations that were belligerents in the 48-49 Arab-Israeli war.
Since you like to speak of foreigners, I just showed you how foreigners from 5 different countries attacked the tiny state of Israel

That is a different war. I wasn't talking about that one.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is another trick question?

What Arab country (ies) crossed the border into Israel?

(COMMENT)

On May 15, 1948, Egypt, Transjordan (now Jordan), Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq joined forces with Hostile Palestinian and other Arab guerrillas who had been fighting Jewish forces since the passage of General Assembly Resolution 181(II), November 1947.

On 14 May 1948, Britain relinquished its Mandate over Palestine and disengaged its forces. On the same day, the Jewish Agency proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel on the territory allotted to it by the partition plan. Fierce hostilities immediately broke out between the Arab and Jewish communities. The next day, regular troops of the neighbouring Arab States entered the territory to assist the Palestinian Arabs.

------------ A N D ------------​

On 15 July 1948, the Security Council decided in a resolution that the situation in Palestine constituted a threat to the peace. It ordered a ceasefire and declared that failure to comply would be construed as a breach of the peace requiring immediate consideration of enforcement measures under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter. In accordance with the resolution, a second truce came into force. By that time, Israel controlled much of the territory allotted to the Arab State by the partition resolution, including the western part of Jerusalem. Egypt and Jordan respectively controlled the remaining portions of the Gaza district and the West Bank of the Jordan River (which included East Jerusalem, with its walled Old City). More fighting took place in October 1948 and March 1949, during which Israel took over other areas, some of which had been allotted to the Arab State. In 1950, Jordan brought the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, formally under its jurisdiction pending a solution to the problem.

SOURCE: http://unispal.un.org/pdfs/DPI2499.pdf

Chapter 3 of Part I - History (page 15), covers the 1967 and 1973 wars and first steps towards peace.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is another trick question?

What Arab country (ies) crossed the border into Israel?

(COMMENT)

On May 15, 1948, Egypt, Transjordan (now Jordan), Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq joined forces with Hostile Palestinian and other Arab guerrillas who had been fighting Jewish forces since the passage of General Assembly Resolution 181(II), November 1947.

On 14 May 1948, Britain relinquished its Mandate over Palestine and disengaged its forces. On the same day, the Jewish Agency proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel on the territory allotted to it by the partition plan. Fierce hostilities immediately broke out between the Arab and Jewish communities. The next day, regular troops of the neighbouring Arab States entered the territory to assist the Palestinian Arabs.

------------ A N D ------------​

On 15 July 1948, the Security Council decided in a resolution that the situation in Palestine constituted a threat to the peace. It ordered a ceasefire and declared that failure to comply would be construed as a breach of the peace requiring immediate consideration of enforcement measures under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter. In accordance with the resolution, a second truce came into force. By that time, Israel controlled much of the territory allotted to the Arab State by the partition resolution, including the western part of Jerusalem. Egypt and Jordan respectively controlled the remaining portions of the Gaza district and the West Bank of the Jordan River (which included East Jerusalem, with its walled Old City). More fighting took place in October 1948 and March 1949, during which Israel took over other areas, some of which had been allotted to the Arab State. In 1950, Jordan brought the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, formally under its jurisdiction pending a solution to the problem.

SOURCE: http://unispal.un.org/pdfs/DPI2499.pdf

Chapter 3 of Part I - History (page 15), covers the 1967 and 1973 wars and first steps towards peace.

Most Respectfully,
R

That doesn't answer the question.

 

[Auteur]

Israel attacked 5 countries ?

When did I say that?

You are making it seem as if Israel started a war with Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinians Arabs.
1948 Arab?Israeli War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You always always refrain from bringing up the 5 Arab nations that were belligerents in the 48-49 Arab-Israeli war.
Since you like to speak of foreigners, I just showed you how foreigners from 5 different countries attacked the tiny state of Israel

We should be clear here when referring to "5 countries" invading Israel. These were not modern, well armed, industrial nation states, but essentially agricultural, peasant countries. The numbers of military committed were tiny in relation to their overall population, and the state of their societies meant little competence in using or maintaining modern weapons. At times there were probably as many armed Jewish fighters in Palestine was there were Arab combatants, with many better trained.

 

[toastman]

When did I say that?

You are making it seem as if Israel started a war with Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinians Arabs.
1948 Arab?Israeli War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You always always refrain from bringing up the 5 Arab nations that were belligerents in the 48-49 Arab-Israeli war.
Since you like to speak of foreigners, I just showed you how foreigners from 5 different countries attacked the tiny state of Israel

We should be clear here when referring to "5 countries" invading Israel. These were not modern, well armed, industrial nation states, but essentially agricultural, peasant countries. The numbers of military committed were tiny in relation to their overall population, and the state of their societies meant little competence in using or maintaining modern weapons. At times there were probably as many armed Jewish fighters in Palestine was there were Arab combatants, with many better trained.

You should also mention that they were attacked on 3 different fronts.
Regardless of the military capabilities of the Arab armies, Israel was seen as the underdog by a large margin.

My Grandmother, who was born in Morocco in 1921 and later moved to Israel in 50's, used to tell me stories about the newscasts she would watch concerning Israel. I remember her mentioning how after Israel declared independence and the 5 Arab states attacked, that most of the world thought it was over for the newly declared state .

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Lack of sovereignty at a particular point in time is not evidence of no desire to have such. In 1948, this was a fact in large parts of the world, including most of Africa, large parts of Asia, the various Soviet "republics", and elsewhere. The essential point was that a community existed in Palestine, had for generations, and the inhabitants considered it home. The fact that they were out-gunned by the Ottomans, and later the British, and later still the Jews, does not mean they don't count. Under this logic, Americans should have never been awarded independence, because they were not a sovereign entity, merely British people acting out a political frustration.

The Balfour Declaration was simply a rather desperate attempt of the British, then at a crisis point in WW1, to enlist the support of anyone and everyone that might be of the slightest value to them. They made similar promises to the Arabs.

As for who were being defensive, and who were being children, the truth is a little more mixed. Violence reached a high point in 1948, as Jewish settlers realized they were going to need more land to make a viable state. The UN plan would have made for almost indefensible borders, and so in the turmoil, an opportuntiy presented itself: chuck out as many Arabs as possible, and have some "facts on the ground" at independence. And they did, a fact no longer in dispute by even leading Israeli academics.

The Arab intervention was a reaction to the violence and murder going on, as much as it was to the idea of the establishment of the Jewish state. There is no surprise here; it would have been the same in any part of the world. The US and Nato did essentially the same thing in the Balkans a few years back. Neither side there were saints, but the human toll was just too much. What the Arab states wanted was order, and end to the conflict, and a fair settlement between Palestinian and Jew. Not that childish when you think about it.

The bold sentence is false. Remember, it was the Arab countries that invaded Israel with the threat of annihilation (a highly documented fact). What the Jews realized was that they needed to gain more territory to defend themselves. This is referred to as military advancement

Remember, it was the Arab countries that invaded Israel ...

What Arab country (ies) crossed the border into Israel?

The losing ones......

 

[freedombecki]

 

[dilloduck]

You are making it seem as if Israel started a war with Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinians Arabs.
1948 Arab?Israeli War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You always always refrain from bringing up the 5 Arab nations that were belligerents in the 48-49 Arab-Israeli war.
Since you like to speak of foreigners, I just showed you how foreigners from 5 different countries attacked the tiny state of Israel

We should be clear here when referring to "5 countries" invading Israel. These were not modern, well armed, industrial nation states, but essentially agricultural, peasant countries. The numbers of military committed were tiny in relation to their overall population, and the state of their societies meant little competence in using or maintaining modern weapons. At times there were probably as many armed Jewish fighters in Palestine was there were Arab combatants, with many better trained.

You should also mention that they were attacked on 3 different fronts.
Regardless of the military capabilities of the Arab armies, Israel was seen as the underdog by a large margin.

My Grandmother, who was born in Morocco in 1921 and later moved to Israel in 50's, used to tell me stories about the newscasts she would watch concerning Israel. I remember her mentioning how after Israel declared independence and the 5 Arab states attacked, that most of the world thought it was over for the newly declared state .

A lot of Jews attribute the victory to God. The same one that Christians worship and are mocked for.

 

[Hyrcanus]

A lot of Jews attribute the victory to God. The same one that Christians worship and are mocked for.

And a lot of Jews attribute the Holocaust to God.

 

[toastman]

We should be clear here when referring to "5 countries" invading Israel. These were not modern, well armed, industrial nation states, but essentially agricultural, peasant countries. The numbers of military committed were tiny in relation to their overall population, and the state of their societies meant little competence in using or maintaining modern weapons. At times there were probably as many armed Jewish fighters in Palestine was there were Arab combatants, with many better trained.

You should also mention that they were attacked on 3 different fronts.
Regardless of the military capabilities of the Arab armies, Israel was seen as the underdog by a large margin.

My Grandmother, who was born in Morocco in 1921 and later moved to Israel in 50's, used to tell me stories about the newscasts she would watch concerning Israel. I remember her mentioning how after Israel declared independence and the 5 Arab states attacked, that most of the world thought it was over for the newly declared state .

A lot of Jews attribute the victory to God. The same one that Christians worship and are mocked for.

I attribute it to the Arabs being horrible at conventional warfare

 

[Hyrcanus]

I attribute it to the Arabs being horrible at conventional warfare

But they kick ass at attrition.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore,

That doesn't answer the question.

v/r
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore,

That doesn't answer the question.

v/r
R

Still a non answer.

 

[toastman]

Take a guess Tinmore. Guess what countries Rocco is trying to tell you that invaded Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Take a guess Tinmore. Guess what countries Rocco is trying to tell you that invaded Israel.

I don't know. I don't see a place called Israel on that map.

 

[MJB12741]

For a guy who knows there is no Israel, you sure do make yourself miserable over it. Is it your Palestinain mentality that causes this?

Take a guess Tinmore. Guess what countries Rocco is trying to tell you that invaded Israel.

I don't know. I don't see a place called Israel on that map.