my American-ized soul is having trouble accepting some of Marcel Lefebvre's ideas. But I'm doing so

[rightnow909]

So here I am being the good little patriotic American I am supposed to be or was raised to be... and here comes this guy I barely knew about up until a couple months ago saying, in essence that the Church should rule over the state..

He says some rather damning things about "freedom of religion" which I always thought was a good thing. Well, it is and L isn't against that per se, he's just against theState not working w/ the Church... he'ss againsst the separation of Church and State, which most of us have come to see as an unmitigated disaster.

LeFebvre sayss that error and truth do not have equal rights. Example from yours truly would be the LGB... and whatever those other letters are that I always forget because I don't care... He didn't speak on the gay issue much (at least not in the book I am reading) but he essentially is saying that the Church should rule...

So I am working through all this... Again, I'm an American and never really thought about the Church being head of the state... except in passing... and always thought I'd get a HUGE argument from... just whomever... were I to ever suggest such a thing... (which I have here and there, mostly on account of seeing what "things" have come to in the
world..... )

 

[daveman]

Nope. The Church -- any church -- mandating its morals as law is an affront to the free will God gave each of us.

 

[rightnow909]

Nope. The Church -- any church -- mandating its morals as law is an affront to the free will God gave each of us.

so you have been Americanized (overly so) the same as I

but you do not have an open mind as I do... well, that's you

 

[daveman]

so you have been Americanized (overly so) the same as I

but you do not have an open mind as I do... well, that's you

You...you're saying I don't have an open mind because I support people's freedom to seek and worship God, or not, as they will? You're saying you have an open mind because you believe the government should mandate everyone's religious beliefs?

That's dumb as hell.

 

[rightnow909]

You...you're saying I don't have an open mind because I support people's freedom to seek and worship God, or not, as they will? You're saying you have an open mind because you believe the government should mandate everyone's religious beliefs?

That's dumb as hell.

that is dumb as hell

too bad you have a comprehension problem bc I didn't say anything of the sort.. but then you don't care..

I get it... the antiCatholic bs... heard it for years...

you refusse to lissten to Catholics... so no point in me continuing a conversation so called

 

[daveman]

that is dumb as hell

too bad you have a comprehension problem bc I didn't say anything of the sort.. but then you don't care..

Ummm...yes, you did say that.

I get it... the antiCatholic bs... heard it for years...

you refusse to lissten to Catholics... so no point in me continuing a conversation so called

I don't care if you're Catholic. Your relationship with God is between you and God.

But when you want your Church to make decisions about how everyone lives their lives, I cannot support that.

 

[rightnow909]

Ummm...yes, you did say that.

I don't care if you're Catholic. Your relationship with God is between you and God.

But when you want your Church to make decisions about how everyone lives their lives, I cannot support that.

what if the Church you refer to was the one established by .. you know... that guy who claimed to be God (If you have seen Me you ahve seen the Father)... (I and the Father are one)?

what if the Church we are referencing is THE Church, the one and only that Christ founded? Does HE have no right to "run things"?

just answer that question... I'm not in the mood for some topic-changing game...

 

[Bezukhov]

what if the Church you refer to was the one established by .. you know... that guy who claimed to be God (If you have seen Me you ahve seen the Father)... (I and the Father are one)?

what if the Church we are referencing is THE Church, the one and only that Christ founded? Does HE have no right to "run things"?

just answer that question... I'm not in the mood for some topic-changing game...

Why didn't He seize earthly political power when He was on earth?

 

[rightnow909]

Why didn't He seize earthly political power when He was on earth?

that's essentially a change of subject

He does things the way He sees fit... Who can question God? Well, we all question Him, I am sure... but who can ACCUSE him of wrongdoing? I have tried... trust me, I have tried... and it didn'tget me anywhere, not surprisngly...

but anyhow...

He chose 12 men, 12 bishops

so I suppose he expected them to run things after He ascended... and they did so... There weren't as many bad popes as people think/like to think...

It is quite enlightening to read what they wrote... You never realizze how brainwashed you have been until you read ... an opposing viewpoint... opposite of what you have "always been taught" RE ... well, maybe RE whatever...

 

[daveman]

what if the Church you refer to was the one established by .. you know... that guy who claimed to be God (If you have seen Me you ahve seen the Father)... (I and the Father are one)?

what if the Church we are referencing is THE Church, the one and only that Christ founded? Does HE have no right to "run things"?

just answer that question... I'm not in the mood for some topic-changing game...

I've already answered that question, in my first post in this thread.

God gave us free will. What you're calling for negates that free will. And it also makes no difference to God. You can force someone to speak the sinner's prayer, but unless they feel it in their heart, it's just meaningless words, and they are not saved.

 

[Bezukhov]

that's essentially a change of subject

He does things the way He sees fit... Who can question God? Well, we all question Him, I am sure... but who can ACCUSE him of wrongdoing? I have tried... trust me, I have tried... and it didn'tget me anywhere, not surprisngly...

but anyhow...

He chose 12 men, 12 bishops

so I suppose he expected them to run things after He ascended... and they did so... There weren't as many bad popes as people think/like to think...

It is quite enlightening to read what they wrote... You never realizze how brainwashed you have been until you read ... an opposing viewpoint... opposite of what you have "always been taught" RE ... well, maybe RE whatever...

Were any of those 12 men, 12 bishops made governors, senators, perhaps even emperor?

 

[rightnow909]

I've already answered that question, in my first post in this thread.

God gave us free will. What you're calling for negates that free will. And it also makes no difference to God. You can force someone to speak the sinner's prayer, but unless they feel it in their heart, it's just meaningless words, and they are not saved.

you didn't answer the Q

What if... and you can imagine such if you don't know, as I do, that there really is a Church still extant that was founded by the Founder HImself..

well, first Q is: After imagining that such exists, tell us all why that Church should not be working w/ the state to govern people's lives? We know corrupt humans cannot/should not govern us... but what about the Church Christ founded?

2nd Q What if that Church has always taught that it should govern along w/ the state?

well, the Church (that goes back to the 1st century) has been teaching that... was teaching it until Vatican II came along and went against itself... or was highjacked or however u say it...

 

[rightnow909]

Were any of those 12 men, 12 bishops made governors, senators, perhaps even emperor?

I am not saying the Church should be the same as the state, I am saying the Church should be allowed to work with the state in making laws, bc the Church can make laws or help make them that keep people on the narrow track to the next life... If you can't trust the Church Christ founded, obviously you can't trust anything...

 

[daveman]

you didn't answer the Q

Yes, I did.

You don't want an answer. You want me to agree with you.

Not gonna happen.

 

[rightnow909]

Yes, I did.

You don't want an answer. You want me to agree with you.

Not gonna happen.

I'm done with your sorry ass

you are dishonest

 

[daveman]

I am not saying the Church should be the same as the state, I am saying the Church should be allowed to work with the state in making laws, bc the Church can make laws or help make them that keep people on the narrow track to the next life... If you can't trust the Church Christ founded, obviously you can't trust anything...

Say you pass a law mandating church attendance. Okay, everybody goes to church. But only the people who want to be there will be receptive to God's Word. The rest are bored and resentful, and will grow to dislike the church even more.

You can't legislate morality. Laws punish the transgressors, and probably even prevent some transgressions...but the desire to sin is still there, and the desire to sin is as great a sin as the action of the sin. You can't see into the sinner's heart -- but God can. And God isn't fooled by the veneer of piety laws against sin provide.

 

[daveman]

I'm done with your sorry ass

you are dishonest

Nope. I have no reason to be dishonest to you.

 

[rightnow909]

Say you pass a law mandating church attendance. Okay, everybody goes to church. But only the people who want to be there will be receptive to God's Word. The rest are bored and resentful, and will grow to dislike the church even more.

You can't legislate morality. Laws punish the transgressors, and probably even prevent some transgressions...but the desire to sin is still there, and the desire to sin is as great a sin as the action of the sin. You can't see into the sinner's heart -- but God can. And God isn't fooled by the veneer of piety laws against sin provide.

as to the first thing, I doubt the Church even in Catholic countries EVER forced people to go to Mass...

2nd thing: people legislate morality all the time.. Why shouldn't GOD?

 

[daveman]

as to the first thing, I doubt the Church even in Catholic countries EVER forced people to go to Mass...

2nd thing: people legislate morality all the time.. Why shouldn't GOD?

Because God doesn't need government bureaucrat intercessors.

If the Holy Spirit tells you to do something or not do something, obey. But obeying government is not going to get you into Heaven.

 

[rightnow909]

I read this story in the news once

a woman said God told her to throw her kid down the stairs..

so much for the Holy Spirit telling you something.

That said, there is such a thing as the HS telling you something. I am not saying that doesn't happen.. it happens w/ me... we have to learn how to listen to the HS and then comply even when you think you know better .

so yeh... The Church also... or used to.. listen to the HS (up until Vatican II but Vat II is not dogmatic so to hell w/ Vat II). THe Church has gotten dogma all figured out, for the most part... Some explaining to non-Catholics is in order.. or non-catechized Catholics but the writings of the popes and the Magesterium are there to be read and we lose when we do not listen to them.

The Catholic Church has always condemned communism, for example. One pope called it the worst slavery known to man.. But here we are heading for communism in the good old USA... No one listens to the good popes.. most people just keep whining and bitching about the bad ones... Forget the bad ones... just as we need to forget (more/less) about he bad/lying/corrupt/greedy politicians... and replace them with... Catholics (real ones) or at least people who try to take the Bible seriously