Native americans protest Keystone XL in Washington

[Mr. H.]

"how much" is irrelevant, since the point is it's not going here. What i'm describing is the pathway; the original point was that keystone makes or helps make the us "energy independent". My post was to explain why that's not at all the case.

I'll resist answering "what effect on domestic u.s. Production will the xl portion have?" unless we can define what the question means. If we mean literally the product that is produced in the us, that's one thing, but the fact that product x is made (refined) here still has no bearing at all on this country's energy supply, because production and importation are different things. The fact that a refinery is physically within the united states doesn't in any way imply that the united states is where its product is going. And that's the point. Would that it were that simple, but it's not.

So the qualified answer: Us production would be affected insofar as raw material, but since refineries operate near full capacity anyway the volume would be unchanged ---- but production is not the point. accessibility is.

But say h, iirc you're in the industry ... Can you tell us what the benefit of keystone is, other than greasing the corporate wheels? In other words -- what's in it for us?

i could tell what i understand to be fact, but with 37 years in the industry i'm just looked upon as a shill and a mouthpiece. :d

i won't get into tiit for tat talk (and not via tapatalk) so all i'd like to suggest to anyone is to search out many sources- even those you wouldn't view as "credible". My choices (of course) would be industry journals and publications, of which i'm an avid reader. A few:

Rigzone, world oil, oil and gas investor, oil and gas journal, american oil and gas reporter (which has actually quoted me lol), midstream... Those are some of the biggies.

home - ipaa will give you a straight-forward view of industry issues from industry's perspective (of course).

The answers to the questions that i posited can be found among these publications.

The eia is also a good source for what i consider pragmatic and non-partisan statistics regarding the industry.

This i know as fact- the xl portion of this project will serve as a conduit, allowing inventories of domestic crudes to reach u.s. Refineries in a much more efficient fashion thereby reducing bottlenecks and bloated inventories.

And yes- this will lead to an increase in localized pricing of domestic crudes, and most likely an ultimate increase in the price of gasolines.

Butt (and that's a big butt), you should also consider that domestic crude prices (wti), have historically lagged world crude prices (brent) because of these bottlenecks and bloated inventories.

I know this is a bit long-winded, but i figured that i should afford you what you've afforded me... A courteous and well-thought reply.

Besides, it beats what i really want to say... Fuck you asshole.

i knew it was a matter of time before the ethanol kicked in --- right on time too

Thanks h. Good to have content in a thread from someone who knows what he's talking about.

fuck you.

 

[Dot Com]

The REAL owners of this great nation don't want the *cough* "job creators" (Repub party owners) screwing up their land w/ more toxic spills just to ship their carbon based, brew to China. I applaud them

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-277KDWcxi8"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-277KDWcxi8[/ame]

 

[Iceweasel]

Did you know that thousands of miles of existing pipelines carrying crude oil and refined liquid hydrocarbons have crossed over the Ogallala Aquifer for years, in southeast Wyoming, eastern Colorado and New Mexico, western Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas and has never contaminated the aquifer?

That doesn't matter. It's more important to pretend to care more than anyone else. This kind of hysteria has kept the US from being energy independent in the first place. We have to defeat these morons, you cannot reason with them.

Once AGAIN .... this pipeline has Zero to do with "the US being energy independent". The product in the pipeline has nothing to do with us. It has to do with making supply lines easier for Big Oil to make its profits, which in the current lay of the land means the product ends up in Asia. The international market as a whole really, which in turn means Asia because that's where the demand is. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with US energy independence.

Get the US off its addiction to oil (the most honest thing GWB ever said in a speech) and THEN we can talk energy independence. But all Keystone does is make it easier for the oil industry -- which as a for-profit business is beholden to stockholders, not countries -- to make its profits. Our part in this is to basically hold the bucket while Big Oil plays the slot machine, so that they have a handy way to carry it out of the casino.

For that, some people are pouring their passions. Which in a world of corporatocracy and its apologists, says a lot in itself.

I want them to be profitable. I want them to prosper, invest and provide gas and oil for my vehicles, transport and the myriad of petroleum based products (which is considerable). We would become less prone to being jacked around by the middle east and from where I sit, diminishing their leverage on us and the rest of the world is a good thing.

Keystone XL Pipeline |
Keystone XL Pipeline Project
Keystone XL Pipeline will be the safest and most advanced oil pipeline operation in North America. It will not only bring essential infrastructure to North American oil producers, but it will also provide jobs, long-term energy independence and an economic boost to Americans.
- See more at: Keystone XL Pipeline |

Democrats' letter to the administration to go forward (remember that phrase?).
http://keystone-xl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Senate-Democrats-letter-to-President-Obama.pdf

 

[bedowin62]

Did you know that thousands of miles of existing pipelines carrying crude oil and refined liquid hydrocarbons have crossed over the Ogallala Aquifer for years, in southeast Wyoming, eastern Colorado and New Mexico, western Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas and has never contaminated the aquifer?

That doesn't matter. It's more important to pretend to care more than anyone else. This kind of hysteria has kept the US from being energy independent in the first place. We have to defeat these morons, you cannot reason with them.

the phony PARTY OF NO (PROGRESS) left-wing morons here arent concerned with actual facts. like it has been said; it's more important to pretend you care for them; than to have an informed debate

 

[Dot Com]

using transcanada as a source. Thats rich.

But seriously folks, there are very few American jobs associated w/ this project, after its completed (even the pipes are imported ) aside from a few minders and the clean up crews that get sent to cover up..... errr..... clean up the inevitable spills (see post# 62)

 

[TemplarKormac]

Can't blame them for wanting to control their own land.

Or are private property rights limited to only those in the GOP who own property?

Gee, why aren't you fighting to give them their land back then? What about all the other pipelines that were built through their ancestral homelands?

Didn't think that one out, did you?

 

[dannyboys]

And now it's time for the FACTS. Modern pipelines are required by Federal law to have installed automatic shut-off valves about every five hundred yards. If for any reason any one of hundreds of pressure sensors detects even the slightest lose in pipe line pressure the valve closes instantly. Theses 'ball-valves' are constructed in such a way that should the value be tampered with the value closes and locks. The beauty of 'ball-valves' is they are internal and can't be screwed with. OK some one blows up a segment of pipe line. Systems are in place to shut off the flow of oil up-stream and down-stream for miles.
As far as oil contaminating the water aquifer any section going over top of the aquifer is built above ground. The aquifer is hundreds of feet deep. Any spill would be cleaned up completely long before any oil could seep hundreds of feet down to the aquifer.
The XL won't create any more than a hundred or so permanent jobs after construction.
Canada will ship the oil to China if the US doesn't buy it. China is the worst polluter on the planet. They don't give a shit about the environment. And they don't give a shit whether 'the West' likes it or not.
The only reason the Government basically gave the indians the money (your money) to build hotels and casinos was to get the indians off the governments back financially. It hasn't worked but who really believed it would? The only indians benefiting from the money from the hotels and the casinos are the tribal leaders and their extended families. Go to any reserve with a fancy hotel and casino on it. Drive around back and you'll see dozens of Escalades and BMWs all belonging to the tribal 'executives' and their cousins. Drive a mile away and you might as well be in a Johannesburg shanty town.
Those are the facts.

 

[tinydancer]

One more line we don't need. Very fine argument you make all the same.

Will the Crisis in the Ukraine Result in the Keystone Pipeline being Approved? | UNI Royalties, Ltd.

The oil is coming whether you like it or not. It's coming by rail and truck.

If you want the world off oil and gas, tell you what.

You first. Get off your keyboard. Go pump some water with a well pump. Knock yourself out and chop some wood and make some candles. Don't forget to feed your horse.

So natural destruction is coming anyway and there is nothing I can do about it. Tell me something I don't know. At least I'm not trying to speed it up. We will probably die choking in a cloud of acidic smog any day now. Can we at least do it without ripping a trench across America in the process? No? Money talks, sucks gasp their dying breath as they fall face first into a stream of toxic waste. Keeps you from getting your shoes dirty so who gives a shit. Right?

As a true conservationist I know when, where and how to pick my fights. And the Keystone XL is not one of them.

My specialty as an activist has been as a clean water advocate. I suggest you look up the nightmare of Grassy Narrows with mercury pollution. That's how long I've been at this. I've been a proud member of Ducks Unlimited for decades. That's just for starters.

I walk the walk.

I just don't put a pizza box in the paper recycle bin and think I'm saving the planet whilst chastising people on message boards about their energy use.

PS

I've been told all my life by enviro weenies that we are all going to die tomorrow. Or the next day.

We were supposed to have an ice age. We were supposed to run out of fossil fuels. The oceans were predicted to die in the 80's.

Why on earth would I believe any of the "end of the world is nigh" enviro weenies when no one can give me an accurate 5 day freaking weather forecast?

 

[Pogo]

That doesn't matter. It's more important to pretend to care more than anyone else. This kind of hysteria has kept the US from being energy independent in the first place. We have to defeat these morons, you cannot reason with them.

Once AGAIN .... this pipeline has Zero to do with "the US being energy independent". The product in the pipeline has nothing to do with us. It has to do with making supply lines easier for Big Oil to make its profits, which in the current lay of the land means the product ends up in Asia. The international market as a whole really, which in turn means Asia because that's where the demand is. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with US energy independence.

Get the US off its addiction to oil (the most honest thing GWB ever said in a speech) and THEN we can talk energy independence. But all Keystone does is make it easier for the oil industry -- which as a for-profit business is beholden to stockholders, not countries -- to make its profits. Our part in this is to basically hold the bucket while Big Oil plays the slot machine, so that they have a handy way to carry it out of the casino.

For that, some people are pouring their passions. Which in a world of corporatocracy and its apologists, says a lot in itself.

I want them to be profitable. I want them to prosper, invest and provide gas and oil for my vehicles, transport and the myriad of petroleum based products (which is considerable). We would become less prone to being jacked around by the middle east and from where I sit, diminishing their leverage on us and the rest of the world is a good thing.

Keystone XL Pipeline |
Keystone XL Pipeline Project
Keystone XL Pipeline will be the safest and most advanced oil pipeline operation in North America. It will not only bring essential infrastructure to North American oil producers, but it will also provide jobs, long-term energy independence and an economic boost to Americans.
- See more at: Keystone XL Pipeline |

Democrats' letter to the administration to go forward (remember that phrase?).
http://keystone-xl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Senate-Democrats-letter-to-President-Obama.pdf

Yyyyyeaah... because they sure are teetering on the edge of unrprofitability, right?

Still has zilch to do with "US energy independence". And try not to grind the gearbox when you throw your own point into Reverse.

 

[RandomVariable]

Bechtel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As a private company, Bechtel does not report profits, but does disclose revenue.[9] Bechtel's revenues in 2012 were US$37.9 billion, a 15% increase from its 2011 revenues of $32.9 billion.[8] Revenues in 2010 were $27.9 billion.[17] New contracts equaled $23.9 billion for the company in 2012.[9]

Bechtel ranked fourth on Forbes 2013 list of America's Largest Private Companies by revenue.[18] It has been named the top U.S. Contractor by revenue by Engineering News-Record for fifteen years in a row and ranked third on the publication's Top 250 International Contractors list by revenue in 2013.[19][20]

Alleged misconduct

Bechtel's work has been the subject of controversy, including a number of cases of contractor misconduct in the United States in the past decade. These cases have included significant issues at a site in Hanford, Washington where Bechtel was decommissioning a former nuclear weapons site without conducting adequate safety reviews of some of the equipment used, and where the Department of Energy's inspector general alleged that "Bechtel determined that there was a systemic problem and a breakdown in controls over the review of design changes," but that the company had taken steps to correct the problems.[21] Bechtel's failure to conduct safety reviews of the equipment they used led to at least some underground tanks leaking radioactive waste in to nearby groundwater.[22] Senator Ron Wyden has alleged that Bechtel fired a whistleblower at the Hanford site, and expressed concern that this would discourage further whistleblowers from coming forward.[23]

Former US Ambassador to Kosovo and currently a Bechtel Corporation employee Christopher Dell lobbied for the construction of a 820 million euros road connecting Prishtina and Tirana, the capital cities of Kosovo and Albania repsectively. Dell took on the role as an African country manager with Bechtel late 2013, months after ending a three-decade career at the State Department.[24]

In Bolivia, one of Latin America poorest countries, Bechtel increased water rates by more than 50% after it secured a very controversial concession in the country just after a privatization program of water systems led by the US based World Bank in the late 90s. [25][26]

 

[RandomVariable]

The oil is coming whether you like it or not. It's coming by rail and truck.

If you want the world off oil and gas, tell you what.

You first. Get off your keyboard. Go pump some water with a well pump. Knock yourself out and chop some wood and make some candles. Don't forget to feed your horse.

So natural destruction is coming anyway and there is nothing I can do about it. Tell me something I don't know. At least I'm not trying to speed it up. We will probably die choking in a cloud of acidic smog any day now. Can we at least do it without ripping a trench across America in the process? No? Money talks, sucks gasp their dying breath as they fall face first into a stream of toxic waste. Keeps you from getting your shoes dirty so who gives a shit. Right?

As a true conservationist I know when, where and how to pick my fights. And the Keystone XL is not one of them.

My specialty as an activist has been as a clean water advocate. I suggest you look up the nightmare of Grassy Narrows with mercury pollution. That's how long I've been at this. I've been a proud member of Ducks Unlimited for decades. That's just for starters.

I walk the walk.

I just don't put a pizza box in the paper recycle bin and think I'm saving the planet whilst chastising people on message boards about their energy use.

PS

I've been told all my life by enviro weenies that we are all going to die tomorrow. Or the next day.

We were supposed to have an ice age. We were supposed to run out of fossil fuels. The oceans were predicted to die in the 80's.

Why on earth would I believe any of the "end of the world is nigh" enviro weenies when no one can give me an accurate 5 day freaking weather forecast?

Concern that your little corner of Heaven does not get messy while the rest of the world becomes an oil slick does not qualify you as an environmentalist in my book.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

"Keep your white man's pipeline off my ancestral lands!!"

 

[Iceweasel]

Once AGAIN .... this pipeline has Zero to do with "the US being energy independent". The product in the pipeline has nothing to do with us. It has to do with making supply lines easier for Big Oil to make its profits, which in the current lay of the land means the product ends up in Asia. The international market as a whole really, which in turn means Asia because that's where the demand is. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with US energy independence.

Get the US off its addiction to oil (the most honest thing GWB ever said in a speech) and THEN we can talk energy independence. But all Keystone does is make it easier for the oil industry -- which as a for-profit business is beholden to stockholders, not countries -- to make its profits. Our part in this is to basically hold the bucket while Big Oil plays the slot machine, so that they have a handy way to carry it out of the casino.

For that, some people are pouring their passions. Which in a world of corporatocracy and its apologists, says a lot in itself.

I want them to be profitable. I want them to prosper, invest and provide gas and oil for my vehicles, transport and the myriad of petroleum based products (which is considerable). We would become less prone to being jacked around by the middle east and from where I sit, diminishing their leverage on us and the rest of the world is a good thing.

Keystone XL Pipeline |
Keystone XL Pipeline Project
Keystone XL Pipeline will be the safest and most advanced oil pipeline operation in North America. It will not only bring essential infrastructure to North American oil producers, but it will also provide jobs, long-term energy independence and an economic boost to Americans.
- See more at: Keystone XL Pipeline |

Democrats' letter to the administration to go forward (remember that phrase?).
http://keystone-xl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Senate-Democrats-letter-to-President-Obama.pdf

Yyyyyeaah... because they sure are teetering on the edge of unrprofitability, right?

Still has zilch to do with "US energy independence". And try not to grind the gearbox when you throw your own point into Reverse.

I know reading is hard for you but try it a little slower this time...

"Keystone XL Pipeline Project
Keystone XL Pipeline will be the safest and most advanced oil pipeline operation in North America. It will not only bring essential infrastructure to North American oil producers, but it will also provide jobs, long-term energy independence and an economic boost to Americans."

 

[Pogo]

I want them to be profitable. I want them to prosper, invest and provide gas and oil for my vehicles, transport and the myriad of petroleum based products (which is considerable). We would become less prone to being jacked around by the middle east and from where I sit, diminishing their leverage on us and the rest of the world is a good thing.

Keystone XL Pipeline |
Keystone XL Pipeline Project
Keystone XL Pipeline will be the safest and most advanced oil pipeline operation in North America. It will not only bring essential infrastructure to North American oil producers, but it will also provide jobs, long-term energy independence and an economic boost to Americans.
- See more at: Keystone XL Pipeline |

Democrats' letter to the administration to go forward (remember that phrase?).
http://keystone-xl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Senate-Democrats-letter-to-President-Obama.pdf

Yyyyyeaah... because they sure are teetering on the edge of unrprofitability, right?

Still has zilch to do with "US energy independence". And try not to grind the gearbox when you throw your own point into Reverse.

I know reading is hard for you but try it a little slower this time...

"Keystone XL Pipeline Project
Keystone XL Pipeline will be the safest and most advanced oil pipeline operation in North America. It will not only bring essential infrastructure to North American oil producers, but it will also provide jobs, long-term energy independence and an economic boost to Americans."

What, we're doing this again?
Just go back and reread my counterpost from yesterday. It doesn't need revision.

Keystone has nothing to do with "energy independence"; it perpetuates the status quo and as your own statement admits in euphemism, greases the corporate profit wheels. But yes it creates jobs. Thirty-five maintenance workers. Damn, that's enough to wipe out unemployment completely. Whoop de frickin' do.

 

[Pogo]

"Keep your white man's pipeline off my ancestral lands!!"

Link?

 

[Dot Com]

"Keep your white man's pipeline off my ancestral lands!!"

Link?

he's FAILTrolling my thread.

 

[Iceweasel]

What, we're doing this again?
Just go back and reread my counterpost from yesterday. It doesn't need revision.

Keystone has nothing to do with "energy independence"; it perpetuates the status quo and as your own statement admits in euphemism, greases the corporate profit wheels. But yes it creates jobs. Thirty-five maintenance workers. Damn, that's enough to wipe out unemployment completely. Whoop de frickin' do.

Who said the US would not be able to use it to transport our own oil at anytime? I didn't see that part.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

"Keep your white man's pipeline off my ancestral lands!!"

Link?

Lancelot

 

[editec]

Screw up that aquifier and Americans start to starve.

Why are putting the needs of the OILocracy ahead of the farmers and consumers of the food they grow?

 

[Dot Com]

Frank57 has lost it. I guess thats what happens to people when they can't win elections