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Still a communist that will not change.
How are things in south Africa?
12 years after the fact? The stabilizing influence is gone. Mandela couldn't coddle the South African people forever. Just because you say he's a communist will not make it so. Mere insistence will not win you any arguments where facts are involved.
There never was a stabilizing influence. The entire ANC government of South Africa had one purpose, to redistibute the confiscated property from the whites to the blacks. As long as it was performing that duty, it was functioning. Now that's griding down, there is less and less to redistribute. The government is ceasing to function.
Nelson Mandela said the was a communist. He wrote a book about it that is still in print you can get your own copy at Barnes and Noble. If you want it as an e-book, it's free. There is no reason to disbelieve him when he said he was a communist.
I actually watched some of the hype, waiting for any report of the "old boy's own works and deeds." Frankly I didn't see reported that he's done much more than play the part of any other imprisoned human that later met Oprah Winfrey and Senator Obama. The main story is his association to US celebs: The REAL story is much more impressive.
As a member of a royal family, he was raised in advantageous surroundings, enjoyed an excellent education and attended University. Clearly, he could have chosen to have a very easy life, but instead chose to resist the status quo. This is the story the media is not telling.
I think it is funny that many of the RWers on this board say Mandela had communist ambitions.....LOL.....That fits in so well with my Avatar....THANKS!
there is said to be a 'criticism of Reagan' in Gingrich's response. I suppose it has to do with communism?
it seems like at present we cannot 'defeat' political systems that are radically different--as tempting as it might be.
we cannot 'defeat' political systems that are radically different
I actually watched some of the hype, waiting for any report of the "old boy's own works and deeds." Frankly I didn't see reported that he's done much more than play the part of any other imprisoned human that later met Oprah Winfrey and Senator Obama. The main story is his association to US celebs: The REAL story is much more impressive.
As a member of a royal family, he was raised in advantageous surroundings, enjoyed an excellent education and attended University. Clearly, he could have chosen to have a very easy life, but instead chose to resist the status quo. This is the story the media is not telling.
Another aspect that it not being told is why and how Mandela reluctantly decided to use force. The why is because of Sharpeville. About 5000 blacks were holding a peaceful protest against the new passbook laws when the police opened fire on the crowd without any provocation. At least 65 were killed and many more injured. That was the why but when it came to the how Mandela insisted that they attack only infrastructure and not people. They went after remote substations and buildings at night when no one was around. This policy then transformed in the 1980's into the passive resistance that made the nation essentially ungovernable.
As far the violence that was done to people that was primarily the South African Police's doing. However over time there were splinter groups of blacks that took more violent action. This violence on both sides is documented in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission transcripts. It is worth reading some samples to get an idea of both the magnitude and how it transformed the nation and brought closure to the ugliness of the Apartheid era. That too was something that belongs as a lasting aspect of Mandela's Legacy.
The terrible Sharpeville massacre, where 65 were killed, certainly had a big effect on Mr Mandela.
Last year 34 striking African miners were murdered by the Police who opened fire on them without any provocation. Don't those who pretend that all is now sweetness and light in the New South Africa.
Mandela did far more than fight the white government. He tortured his fellow black people. He was noted for cutting off the noses of his political enemies. Likely an end to apartheid would not have happened had he remained free to murder and torture.
Whether what he does was good or bad, his history should not be so santized that he somehow transforms into a man of peace because that didn't happen until after he spent 27 years in prison. Not that South Africa is a nation at peace. It isn't. It isn't even functioning. It is limping along like every other African government.
Mandela did far more than fight the white government. He tortured his fellow black people. He was noted for cutting off the noses of his political enemies. Likely an end to apartheid would not have happened had he remained free to murder and torture.
Whether what he does was good or bad, his history should not be so santized that he somehow transforms into a man of peace because that didn't happen until after he spent 27 years in prison. Not that South Africa is a nation at peace. It isn't. It isn't even functioning. It is limping along like every other African government.
Mandela did far more than fight the white government. He tortured his fellow black people. He was noted for cutting off the noses of his political enemies. Likely an end to apartheid would not have happened had he remained free to murder and torture.
Whether what he does was good or bad, his history should not be so santized that he somehow transforms into a man of peace because that didn't happen until after he spent 27 years in prison. Not that South Africa is a nation at peace. It isn't. It isn't even functioning. It is limping along like every other African government.
Putting Mandela in Perspective | Theden | Thedening the West
So CNN tells us, with a shrug of the shoulders, that youve gotta break some (mostly White) eggs if you want an ideological omelette. If youre curious, the ANCs preferred method of lynching appears to have been necklacing. This was how those suspected of being traitors or White collaborators often ended up. Mandela, the sweetheart that he was, favored the gentler punishment of simply cutting off noses. Now disproportionate numbers of White South Africans are being murdered and genocide has become a serious concern. Was this really the better of two evils? Perhaps it appears that way when you think of it in magical terms. But thats a childish thing to do. -
Thank you for that link.Newt Gingrich pushes back on Nelson Mandela criticism | Political Insider | www.ajc.com
<Yesterday I issued a heartfelt and personal statement about the passing of President Nelson Mandela. I said that his family and his country would be in my prayers and Callista’s prayers.
I was surprised by the hostility and vehemence of some of the people who reacted to me saying a kind word about a unique historic figure.
So let me say to those conservatives who don’t want to honor Nelson Mandela, what would you have done?
Mandela was faced with a vicious apartheid regime that eliminated all rights for blacks and gave them no hope for the future. This was a regime which used secret police, prisons and military force to crush all efforts at seeking freedom by blacks.
What would you have done faced with that crushing government?
What would you do here in America if you had that kind of oppression?
Some of the people who are most opposed to oppression from Washington attack Mandela when he was opposed to oppression in his own country.
As Americans we celebrate the farmers at Lexington and Concord who used force to oppose British tyranny. We praise George Washington for spending eight years in the field fighting the British Army’s dictatorial assault on our freedom.
Patrick Henry said, “Give me liberty or give me death.”
Thomas Jefferson wrote and the Continental Congress adopted that “all men are created equal, and they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”
Doesn’t this apply to Nelson Mandela and his people?
Some conservatives say, ah, but he was a communist.
>
~~~
if it is an issue for anyone--Mandela's daughter has said he was more spiritual than religious. Pragmatically chose to put 'the past' behind him when he was released from prison--not 'forgive' ~~~this has already been discussed on CNN this AM. Fox News was discussing this last night with Rick Warren, promoting his new book ---I have heard enough from Rick Warren--certain he has good insights--he bothers me.
Putting Mandela in Perspective | Theden | Thedening the West
So CNN tells us, with a shrug of the shoulders, that youve gotta break some (mostly White) eggs if you want an ideological omelette. If youre curious, the ANCs preferred method of lynching appears to have been necklacing. This was how those suspected of being traitors or White collaborators often ended up. Mandela, the sweetheart that he was, favored the gentler punishment of simply cutting off noses. Now disproportionate numbers of White South Africans are being murdered and genocide has become a serious concern. Was this really the better of two evils? Perhaps it appears that way when you think of it in magical terms. But thats a childish thing to do. -
That's why I can't call him a terrorist but a warrior. He was in a war, and things become foggy. It's easy to sit in safety and condemn actions that others do when you aren't their.
Put yourself in his place, in the environment he was in.
War is hell and sometimes even good people do really bad thing.
However that does not change the fact he was a communist.
Newt:
"Some conservatives say, ah, but he was a communist.
Actually Mandela was raised in a Methodist school, was a devout Christian, turned to communism in desperation only after South Africa was taken over by an extraordinarily racist government determined to eliminate all rights for blacks.
I would ask of his critics: where were some of these conservatives as allies against tyranny?
Where were the masses of conservatives opposing Apartheid? In a desperate struggle against an overpowering government, you accept the allies you have just as Washington was grateful for a French monarchy helping him defeat the British.
Finally, if you had been imprisoned for 27 years, 18 of them in a cell eight foot by seven foot, how do you think you would have emerged? Would you have been angry? Would you have been bitter?
Newt Gingrich pushes back on Nelson Mandela criticism | Political Insider | www.ajc.com
Bam!
Putting Mandela in Perspective | Theden | Thedening the West
So CNN tells us, with a shrug of the shoulders, that youve gotta break some (mostly White) eggs if you want an ideological omelette. If youre curious, the ANCs preferred method of lynching appears to have been necklacing. This was how those suspected of being traitors or White collaborators often ended up. Mandela, the sweetheart that he was, favored the gentler punishment of simply cutting off noses. Now disproportionate numbers of White South Africans are being murdered and genocide has become a serious concern. Was this really the better of two evils? Perhaps it appears that way when you think of it in magical terms. But thats a childish thing to do. -
That's why I can't call him a terrorist but a warrior. He was in a war, and things become foggy. It's easy to sit in safety and condemn actions that others do when you aren't their.
Put yourself in his place, in the environment he was in.
War is hell and sometimes even good people do really bad thing.
However that does not change the fact he was a communist.
Then it should be easy to tell the truth instead of remaking the man into something he never was.
Black men? oh gee enter race card.It's funny how all black men are somehow character assassinated.
Try to think of one black man in history that has lived his life and died....that there isn't a smear campaign against his character, life, etc.
These ppl say Dr. King, Mandela, and Obama are all evil pieces of shit.
So imagine how they feel about other blacks who are not nearly as accomplished, dedicated, or educated.
See what I mean?
Therefore, nothing they say about anyone black gets a drop of consideration from me.
It's funny how all black men are somehow character assassinated.
Try to think of one black man in history that has lived his life and died....that there isn't a smear campaign against his character, life, etc.
These ppl say Dr. King, Mandela, and Obama are all evil pieces of shit.
So imagine how they feel about other blacks who are not nearly as accomplished, dedicated, or educated.
See what I mean?
Therefore, nothing they say about anyone black gets a drop of consideration from me.
Newt:
"Some conservatives say, ah, but he was a communist.
Newt Gingrich pushes back on Nelson Mandela criticism | Political Insider | www.ajc.com
Bam!
Likely it was those 27 years in prison that effected the change in him that make him the kind of person who could negotiate with others.
That's why I say he reminds me of Robert Stroud who spent a lifetime in prison as a violent killer but died a respected and world renowned ornithologist.
