No Cake for You

[koshergrl]

He's just admitting that it's not about protecting anyone, it's about forcing Christians to be subservient to queers.

Good luck with that, Joeb.

 

[JoeB131]

Again, BAKE THE FUCKING CAKE PEASANT.

hopefully one day government will get around to forcing you to go against your morals, but considering your type, you would probably gutlessly go along with it like a fucking lemming.

Guy, you have a serious persecution complex. We all have to follow laws we don't like or find annoying.

Asking them to bake a cake is not a great imposition on their lives. Sorry, it just isn't.

 

[JoeB131]

He's just admitting that it's not about protecting anyone, it's about forcing Christians to be subservient to queers.

Good luck with that, Joeb.

You had no problem when the queers had to put up with your Christian Bullshit.

 

[bodecea]

They weren't in the wedding business.
They were in the cake business.

There. That was easy.

Oh, I'm sorry. They didn't bake wedding cakes and this isn't about their objections to doing business over a certain kind of wedding. Well then.

 

[bodecea]

It's called having an opinion skippy.

Please tell me why it is worse to have your feelings hurt depending on who you like to bugger.

I've known gay people who've been fired, I've known gay people who've been beaten up, for who they are.

It won't kill the christians to bake a fucking cake when they are in the business of BAKING CAKES!

But they are being PERSECUTED!!!!!

 

[koshergrl]

On the one hand, he's whooping it up because they're being persecuted..in the next breath he's claiming it's not persecution.

Med time, joey.

 

[JoeB131]

Ah, the old "you didn't build it" argument, the last refuge of someone who doesn't have an actual fucking point to make.

The baker pays taxes as well, probably more than the lesbians due to being a business owner. They also pay all sorts of fees to continue being in business.

Just admit you get a chubby from watching government fuck people over, and stop with the justifications.

the Baker may PAY more taxes, but they probably get more benefit out of having a government. For instance, you are more likely to need police protection from robbers as a baker than a lesbian.

Again, the problem with LIbertarians is they want to live in a civilized society, they just don't want to share in the obligations.

 

[JoeB131]

On the one hand, he's whooping it up because they're being persecuted..in the next breath he's claiming it's not persecution.

Med time, joey.

They are being made to follow the same laws that apply to the rest of us. Laws, that frankly, make commerce possible.

 

[bodecea]

On the one hand, he's whooping it up because they're being persecuted..in the next breath he's claiming it's not persecution.

Med time, joey.

They are being made to follow the same laws that apply to the rest of us. Laws, that frankly, make commerce possible.

The laws that have been around for a couple of decades and protected Christians way before they protected gays.

 

[TemplarKormac]

They do love a good "martyr" story, however, the bakery broke the law as stated in the ding-dong's OP.

That's cute, but being the little l libertarian that I am, I stated how wrong the law was. Oh yeah, I will keep brandishing the Burwell decision until someone manages to read it. However, it is ironic you would refer to martyrs after the way you guys wailed and moaned about Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown, how ironic indeed.

Neither are any sort of comparison to the topic. You're comparing apples to cantaloupe.

Heh, your apples and cantaloupes are preferable to an actual argument is it? The only reason you dismiss it out of hand is because the Burwell case will allow any business to object to serving gays because of religious objection. Sorry, you're scared, and your apples and cantaloupes wont save you now.

 

[TemplarKormac]

It doesn't. Baking the cake wasn't the problem. They were asked to bring the cake to the wedding these two were having.

That is false.

The real sequence of events is listed in the ruling. There cake tasting had never gotten to any discussion of actually baking the cake (i.e. design), there was no offer of baking the cake and having the complainants pick it up, there was no offer to bake the cake but not deliver it. As soon as the Klein's found out that the cake was for two brides, they refused service.

Making up things in a debate that can be checked isn't a way to "win" a debate.

Oh, BTW - on page for it notes that the material facts are undisputed by both parties - something required as part of the parties seeking a summary judgement.

BOLI-sweetcakes.pdf

>>>>

I would you suggest you read the entire thing before impulsively posting it up. I study case briefs as a hobby.

Read page 5, number 4, lines 12-16:

4) In the operation of Sweetcakes, A.Klein bakes the cakes, cuts the layers, adds filling, and applies a base layer of frosting. M. Klein then does a design and decorating. A. Klien delivers the cake to the wedding or reception site in a vehicle that has "Sweet Cakes by Melissa" written in large pink letters on the side and assembles the cake as necessary. A. Klien also sets up the cake and finalizes any remaining decoration. A. Klein also sets up the cake and finalizes any remaining decorations after final assembly and placement. In that capacity he often interacts with the couple or other family members and often places cards showing that Sweetcakes created the cake. (Affidavits of A. Klien, M. Klein)

As seen here, Sweetcakes delivers the cake on site, and often interacts with the couple or the family. Meaning that the Kliens would have had to be physically at the wedding site. That, along with the prospect of making the cake was why they objected to serving the gay couple. The 'sequence of events' in this case are irrelevant inasmuch as the objection was based on A) baking the cake for the couple and B) delivering it to the site of a same sex wedding, which they religiously objected to.

To expound,


Page 6, Lines 21 and 22

A. Klien: "I didn't want to be a part of her marriage, which I think is wrong."

Page 7, Lines 1-4:

M. Klien: "I am who I am, and I want to live my life the way I want to live my life and, you know, I choose to serve God."

A. Klien: "It's one of those things where you never want to see something you've put so much work into go belly up, but on the other hand, um, I have faith in the Lord and he's taken care of us up to this point and I'm sure he will in the future."

With the first statement, it confirms to me that the prospect of having to make and deliver the cake was unconscionable to the Kliens, and as such they "didn't want to be part of her marriage." Notice the lingual structure. That phrase suggests they would have had to be there to make the cake and assemble the cake for a wedding they saw as an affront to their religious beliefs.

Page 7, lines 11-23, an interview of A. Klien on Tony Perkins' "Washington Watch"

Perkins: "***Tell us how this unfolded and your reaction to that"

Klien: "Well, as far as how it unfolded, it was just, you know, business as usual. We had a bride come in. She wanted to try some wedding cake. Return customer. Came in, sat down. I simply asked the bride and groom's first name and date of the wedding. She kind of giggled and informed me it was two brides. At the point I apologized. I said, 'I'm very sorry, I feel like you may have wasted your time. You know we don't do same sex marriage, same sex wedding cakes.' And she got upset, noticeably, and I understand that. Got up, walked out, and you know, that was, I figured the end of it."

Perkins: "Aaron, let me stop you for a moment. Had you and your wife, had you talked about this before; is this something you had discussed? Did you think, you know, this might occur and had you thought through how you might respond or did this kind of catch you off guard?"

Klien: "You know, it was something I had a feeling was going to become an issue and I discussed it with my wife when the State of Washington, which is right across the river from us, legalized same-sex marriage and we watched Masterpiece Bakery going through the same issue that we ended up going through. But, you know, it was one of those situations where we said 'well I can see it is going to become an issue but we have to stand firm. It's our-

Aaron Klien interview Continued, Page 8, Lines 1-4

"belief and we have a right to it, you know.' I could totally understand the backlash from the gay and lesbian community. I could see that; what I don't understand is the government sponsorship of religious persecution. That is something that just kind of boggles my mind as to how a government that is under the jurisdiction of the Constitution can decide, you know, that these people's rights overtake these people's right or even opinion, that this person's opinion is more valid that this person's' it kind of blows my mind."

Okay, so, notice how Klien described the body language of the bride when asked for the basic information. She giggled right before she provided the fateful information. Okay, innocuous you would think, given the excitement of getting married and all, but that was a red flag, suggesting foreknowlege of the existing stances of the owners. I gather she knew that Aaron and his wife didn't do cakes or deliver them to same-sex weddings. Why? Because:

1) The bride was a repeat customer. Aaron made that clear in the interview.

2) Aaron replied with "You know we don't do same sex marriage, same sex wedding cakes."

3) That simple exchange tells me that they knew one another well.

4) The Kliens actively used Bible verses on their website and in their store, which the same sex bride would have no doubt have seen repeatedly in previous transactions. As such, simple reasoning would have told them they didn't do same sex weddings.

Do not lecture me, do not talk down to me. I have all the facts in hand. I don't debate just to see my own typed words, I debate to win on actual concrete facts.

 

[JoeB131]

Heh, your apples and cantaloupes are preferable to an actual argument is it? The only reason you dismiss it out of hand is because the Burwell case will allow any business to object to serving gays because of religious objection. Sorry, you're scared, and your apples and cantaloupes wont save you now.

Unlikely.

Here's the problem. The few bakers and other haters are too small a group for the politicians to scrap common sense Public Accommedation laws. Carving out religious exemptions for laws causes all sorts of trouble.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Page 7, lines 11-23, an interview of A. Klien on Tony Perkins' "Washington Watch"

Perkins: "***Tell us how this unfolded and your reaction to that"

Klien: "Well, as far as how it unfolded, it was just, you know, business as usual. We had a bride come in. She wanted to try some wedding cake. Return customer. Came in, sat down. I simply asked the bride and groom's first name and date of the wedding. She kind of giggled and informed me it was two brides. At the point I apologized. I said, 'I'm very sorry, I feel like you may have wasted your time. You know we don't do same sex marriage, same sex wedding cakes.' And she got upset, noticeably, and I understand that. Got up, walked out, and you know, that was, I figured the end of it."

.

So you just proved you were lying before. Nice job.

 

[NYcarbineer]

So you'd rather the gay people be punished by not allowing them to shop at their local bakery.

The use of government force to make people comply with a good or service that is readily available from other sources and is not an economic of life necessity is worse than two people having to find another baker and maybe having their feelings hurt.

Like separate drinking fountains?

PUBLIC drinking fountains, people keep forgetting that it was government enforced segregation. Even if there were separate private drinking fountains, that situation was mandated by local law.

and the main issue with that was separate was NEVER equal.

Cool so I can have separate drinking fountains at my private business! Who knew?

Yeah, you don't line each and every water fountain in the building in a row, or nobody else in the building would have one!

We're talking about this, vapor head:

 

[NYcarbineer]

The lesbian's pay taxes that help build the roads that lead to the bakery, pay taxes so the police can protect the bakery, and so the fire department can put out the fire, when the bakery catches fire.

But the couple paid their taxes, signed all the forms, jumped through all the hoops and put down their own money to make that business. But hey, equality right? Paying taxes is easy, starting a business isn't.

The lesbians can go to the bakery on the streets that their taxes pay for and buy all the cookies and pastries they want. No one has denied them service at all.

So your position is that if you're only wedding cake bakery in town, you would have to make a cake for the lesbians?

lol, this gets funnier every minute.

 

[WorldWatcher]

They were asked to bring the cake to the wedding these two were having.

That is false.

The real sequence of events is listed in the ruling. There cake tasting had never gotten to any discussion of actually baking the cake (i.e. design), there was no offer of baking the cake and having the complainants pick it up, there was no offer to bake the cake but not deliver it. As soon as the Klein's found out that the cake was for two brides, they refused service.

Making up things in a debate that can be checked isn't a way to "win" a debate.

Oh, BTW - on page for it notes that the material facts are undisputed by both parties - something required as part of the parties seeking a summary judgement.

BOLI-sweetcakes.pdf

>>>>

I would you suggest you read the entire thing before impulsively posting it up. I study case briefs as a hobby.

<<SNIP>>

As I said you were wrong, they never got to the point of discussion delivery of a cake which is what you said.

They never go to order a cake, therefore they didn't "ask that it be delivered". The Kleins never offered a bake and pick up option.

Do not lecture me, do not talk down to me. I have all the facts in hand. I don't debate just to see my own typed words, I debate to win on actual concrete facts.

Actually I feel free to talk down to you when you make shit up.


>>>>

 

[Care4all]

The bakers, AS CHRISTIANS, should have sold the gay couple their cake, and done so graciously...THAT was their duty and this is what Christ taught.... over and over and over again....it was the outcasts, the sinners that Jesus spent His time with... The very people the Pharisees, the supposed religious rejected...the tax collector sinners, the adulterous, the Samaritans etc....and through His love and graciousness, He won them over....

Colossians 4:5-6, Proper conduct towards unbelievers
by Matt Slick
"Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. 6Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone," Col. 4:5-6(NIV)

How do you behave with and toward unbelievers? Do you like them? Do you hate them? Do you tolerate them? Are you concerned about their salvation? Do you act like them when you aren't in Christian company? Do you snub them if they aren't holy? Some Christians think that being kind to unbelievers is like throwing pearls before swine. Then there are Christians who stand on street corners, in malls, and in front of abortion clinics to witness to unbelievers. Others just don't care one way or another. Where do you fit in? Do you share your faith using hugs or headlocks? Honey or a hammer? Or do you even share your faith at all?

The Word of God is very specific about how you as a Christian are to conduct yourself toward the non-Christian. Turn with me to Col. 4:5-6 and we will read together what God wants you, as a Christian, to do.

The literal translation of Col. 4:5-6 is

In wisdom, walk toward the ones outside, redeeming the time. Let your word be always in grace, having been seasoned with salt, to know how it is necessary for each one of you to answer.

1. God wants you to conduct yourselves with wisdom toward unbelievers, v. 5
   1. First of all, before anything else is said, we need to focus on something very important: the cross of Christ.
      1. It is because of the cross and our redemption found there that we are able to seek to be wise and good towards unbelievers.
      2. The sacrifice of Christ has cleansed us from our sins, forgiven us our trespasses, and enabled us to be gracious and kind by changing us. As we were once against God in our unbelief, God was gracious and kind to us. Because of Jesus we are to be kind to others.
   2. Literally the Greek says to "walk in wisdom toward outsiders."
      1. To the Jew every non-Jew was an outsider. To the Christian, every non Christian is an outsider; that is, outside the church. Outside of a relationship with the Lord Jesus.
      2. The context of the church: "In the days of the early church believers were often slandered by these outsiders. Christians were called atheists because they served no visible gods, unpatriotic because they did not burn incense before the image of the emperor, and immoral because, of necessity, they would often meet behind locked doors."
      3. Today there is still an attack on the church. Christians are called bigots because they condemn homosexuality, intolerant because they oppose abortion, religious extremists because they condemn sin, and narrow-minded because they believe there is one "one faith, one Lord, and one baptism" (Eph. 4:5).
      4. Yet, in spite of these attacks we are to remain humble, loving, caring, kind, and gentle. If we are not, if we do not show love and forbearance in the face of cruelty, insult, intolerance, and ridicule, then you are not showing the world that we know Jesus?
   3. That is why it is so important to have wise conduct before unbelievers.
      1. One reason is so you aren't made a fool.
      2. The reputation of the gospel depends on you.
      3. The world judges Christianity by what it sees in you.
         1. 1. Are you representing it well with kindness, holiness, consistent reverence to the Lord?
      4. Also, unfortunately, the world judges Christianity by what it sees on television where lies about Christians and Christianity are broadcast as the pagans version of the "gospel truth." All the more reason to live holy lives.
         1. 1. I remember years ago watching Miami vice. It opened with two Christians preaching. There was this bad guy who tripped and fell at the feet of two "Christians" who had Bibles and had been preaching. When the bad guy fell at their feet, the Christians started hitting him with their Bibles, kicking him, and yelling mean things at him.
            2. On another show, "Renegade" there was coffee house scene where a Christian couple behaved rudely, bigoted, cowardly, and stupid.
      5. Nevertheless, in spite of the insults, you are to be wise.
   4. God wants your conduct to be with wisdom. This conduct is your manner of behavior. This means you are to be
      1. sympathetic (this could be in counseling, listening, etc.)
      2. compassionate and humble (1 Pet. 3:8).
         1. "To sum up, let all be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit;"
      3. loving
         1. "Don't repay evil for evil, or insult with insult, but with blessing repay the evil cast at you" (1 Pet. 3:9).
      4. patient - you are to be considerate and lonsuffering with the unbeliever.
      5. know when not to speak
         1. That is often one of the hardest things to do. It is so often the best thing to simply listen to a person and wait for a better opportunity.
      6. If your conduct is indeed with wisdom, then the name of Christ will not be maligned.
         1. The unbeliever will have no basis to mock Christ, His church, or His people.
         2. And, he may be brought into the fold of Christ.
2. God wants you to make the most of the opportunity with unbelievers, v. 5
   1. Literally the Greek says "redeeming the time," or "buying up the opportunity." The sense then would be "Do not just sit there and wait for opportunity to fall into your lap, but go after it. Yes, buy it."
   2. There is definitely a time to be aggressive in your relationship with an unbeliever.
   3. I would hope that as Christians you would not become complacent about evangelism. God uses the Gospel to call His people out of the world.
   4. The time is short and the world is evil: Ephesians 5:15-17 says, "Be very careful, then, how you live -- not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is."
3. God wants you to let your speech to always be gracious with unbelievers, v. 6
   1. Paul is asking the Colossians to be careful with their tongues.
      1. Careful when they speak in public and private, no gossip.
      2. Careful when they speak to an equal or someone in power, no slander.
      3. Careful when they speak to the poor and the rich, no favoritism.
      4. Careful not only when speaking of the gospel but also when speaking of the weather, the economy, politicians, the authorities.
         1. In all your conversation be good.
   2. Gracious: God wants you to be careful, gracious, kind in your speech.
      1. Grace is getting what you do not deserve. Give them kindness, love, compassion, and patience.
   3. And note the word "always."
      1. In all situations at all times.
         1. playing a sport, watching a movie, driving, shopping, business, in church, out of church, at work....
   4. Being gracious means to be kind, gentle, positive, helpful, and insightful.
   5. A further description of this kind of gracious speech is: seasoned with salt, v. 6.
      1. Those whom the Lord calls "the salt of the earth" (Matt. 5:13) must not be tasteless.
      2. I work at a place where all the people around me are unbelievers. Their conversations are often vile, crass, filled with not so clean jokes. All to get that sense of belonging and being "in" with the rest of the group..
      3. Don't be like the ungodly around you.
      4. Salt prevents corruption.
         1. Elsewhere Paul said, "Do not let any corrupt talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen" (Eph. 4:29).
4. God wants you to know how to answer everyone, v. 6.
   1. Speak the right word and the right time to the right person.
      1. 1 Pet. 3:15 says, "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect."
   2. Part of having answers means being wise.
      1. Proverbs, as well as the rest of Scripture, is the only source of true wisdom. With wisdom you will be properly be able to answer in times of counseling and heartache, joy and sorrow, and in times when morality is an issue.
   3. Part of having answers means knowing doctrine.
      1. The Catechisms are excellent teachers of doctrine.
      2. Know the doctrine of the Trinity, the deity of Christ and of the Holy Spirit, the gospel message, the resurrection, the return of Christ, and the rest of what the Bible teaches.
   4. Part of having answers means studying difficult issues.
      1. Study evolution, cults, and other religions.
      2. You don't have to master them, just be familiar with them.
5. And don't forget, in your wisdom and grace toward them, pray for them.
   1. They need to be granted the faith that God gives (John 6:28ff)
   2. They need to be granted the repentance that God gives (2 Tim. 2:25).
   3. They need to be granted the belief that God gives (Phil. 1:29).
   4. You can make a difference in your prayers (James 5:16).
      1. A...The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."

Conclusion

So what difference do these verses make in your lives? Plenty. Your conduct and speech before an unbeliever is vitally important. Your conduct should be with wisdom, your speech with grace.

I know a Christian who years ago worked with an unbeliever. For two years, this Christian answered the unbelievers questions; he was gentle and kind in his conduct in all situations and always tried to point his friend to Christ. He sought to be wise and gracious. Today that unbeliever has become a pastor. The Lord used that Christian, his wise conduct, his gracious speech, to help bring another into His kingdom. To Jesus be the glory. Amen.

 

[MaxGrit]

The bakers, AS CHRISTIANS, should have sold the gay couple their cake, and done so graciously...THAT was their duty and this is what Christ taught.... over and over and over again....it was the outcasts, the sinners that Jesus spent His time with... The very people the Pharisees, the supposed religious rejected...the tax collector sinners, the adulterous, the Samaritans etc....and through His love and graciousness, He won them over....

No. They believe it's a sin to participate in a gay wedding, which makes it is a sin for them.

Romans 14

"12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.

22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.

23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

 

[Care4all]

The bakers, AS CHRISTIANS, should have sold the gay couple their cake, and done so graciously...THAT was their duty and this is what Christ taught.... over and over and over again....it was the outcasts, the sinners that Jesus spent His time with... The very people the Pharisees, the supposed religious rejected...the tax collector sinners, the adulterous, the Samaritans etc....and through His love and graciousness, He won them over....

No. They believe it's a sin to participate in a gay wedding, which makes it is a sin for them.

Romans 14

"12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.

22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.

23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

I disagree that this passage means what you seem to think it does. The lesson in these passages is quite the OPPOSITE of what you contend....

and Baking a cake for a wedding RECEPTION is NOT participating or agreeing with this wedding of the gay couple.... this Bakery couple can still hold their beliefs that marriage is between a man and a woman....it would not be a sin for them to bake a cake.....

When the whore was washing Christ's feet in front of the Pharisees and they complained that a righteous man would never associate with a woman like that....or when they complained about Jesus associating himself with prostitutes and tax collectors for the Roman government, or when his followers saw him speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well....Do you think the holier than thou Pharisees were correct in their assumption that Jesus was not a righteous man because of who he associated Himself with, or because of the outcasts that He showed Love and grace towards?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

State and local public accommodations laws that prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation are necessary, proper, and Constitutional as authorized by the Commerce Clause – such laws in no way 'violate' religious liberty.

The principle upheld in Employment Division v. Smith, and as reaffirmed in City of Boerne v. Flores, that claiming a 'religious exemption' in an effort to avoid necessary and proper laws and measures does not 'justify' ignoring or violating those necessary and proper measures, remains in place and valid today, where business owners open to the general public may not seek to discriminate against patrons solely based on sexual orientation.