No freedom of expression in Gaza

[toastman]

Tinmore, do you have any documents that show any agreements of so called 'Palestines' borders ??

 

[P F Tinmore]

Tinmore, do you have any documents that show any agreements of so called 'Palestines' borders ??

Palestine has international borders that were defined by post-war treaties.

Do you have any evidence of a dispute?

 

[toastman]

Again, do you have any documents that show the agreements of Palestines borders that are present in 2013 ?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Again, do you have any documents that show the agreements of Palestines borders that are present in 2013 ?

The same as they were in 1922 unless you can show some disputes.

 

[toastman]

Where did you read that the 1922 borders are still in effect ? Looks like you're making stuff up once again

List of sovereign states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The proclaimed state has no agreed territorial borders, or effective control on the territory that it proclaimed

Can you read?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Where did you read that the 1922 borders are still in effect ? Looks like you're making stuff up once again

List of sovereign states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The proclaimed state has no agreed territorial borders, or effective control on the territory that it proclaimed

Can you read?

You are asking me to prove that Palestine's international borders have not changed. I can't prove a negative.

It is up to you to prove a dispute of Palestine's borders.

 

[Hossfly]

Where did you read that the 1922 borders are still in effect ? Looks like you're making stuff up once again

List of sovereign states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The proclaimed state has no agreed territorial borders, or effective control on the territory that it proclaimed

Can you read?

The Criteria For Inclusion is in your link. Where does Tinmore get his information?


Criteria for inclusion[edit]

The dominant customary international law standard of statehood is the declarative theory of statehood that defines the state as a person of international law if it "possess[es] the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) a capacity to enter into relations with the other states." Debate exists on the degree to which recognition should be included as a criterion of statehood. The declarative theory of statehood, an example of which can be found in the Montevideo Convention, argues that statehood is purely objective and recognition of a state by other states is irrelevant. On the other end of the spectrum, the constitutive theory of statehood defines a state as a person under international law only if it is recognised as sovereign by other states. For the purposes of this list, included are all states that either:
(a) have declared independence and are often regarded as having control over a permanently populated territory

or
(b) are recognised as a sovereign state by at least one other sovereign state

Note that in some cases there is a divergence of opinion over the interpretation of the first point, and whether an entity satisfies it is disputed.

On the basis of the above criteria, this list includes the following 206 entities:[62][Note 29]
203 states recognised by at least one UN member state
Two states that control a permanently populated territory and are recognised only by non-UN member states: Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, Transnistria
One state that controls a permanently populated territory and is not recognised by any other state: Somaliland

 

[P F Tinmore]

Where did you read that the 1922 borders are still in effect ? Looks like you're making stuff up once again

List of sovereign states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The proclaimed state has no agreed territorial borders, or effective control on the territory that it proclaimed

Can you read?

The Criteria For Inclusion is in your link. Where does Tinmore get his information?


Criteria for inclusion[edit]

The dominant customary international law standard of statehood is the declarative theory of statehood that defines the state as a person of international law if it "possess[es] the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) a capacity to enter into relations with the other states." Debate exists on the degree to which recognition should be included as a criterion of statehood. The declarative theory of statehood, an example of which can be found in the Montevideo Convention, argues that statehood is purely objective and recognition of a state by other states is irrelevant. On the other end of the spectrum, the constitutive theory of statehood defines a state as a person under international law only if it is recognised as sovereign by other states. For the purposes of this list, included are all states that either:
(a) have declared independence and are often regarded as having control over a permanently populated territory

or
(b) are recognised as a sovereign state by at least one other sovereign state

Note that in some cases there is a divergence of opinion over the interpretation of the first point, and whether an entity satisfies it is disputed.

On the basis of the above criteria, this list includes the following 206 entities:[62][Note 29]
203 states recognised by at least one UN member state
Two states that control a permanently populated territory and are recognised only by non-UN member states: Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, Transnistria
One state that controls a permanently populated territory and is not recognised by any other state: Somaliland

Indeed.

...the state as a person of international law if it "possess[es] the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory;...

More than half a century after independence, David Ben-Gurion’s “normal” country still lacks one of the fundamental attributes of a normal state: borders.

http://www.inss.org.il/publications.php?cat=21&incat=&read=203

 

[toastman]

Where did you read that the 1922 borders are still in effect ? Looks like you're making stuff up once again

List of sovereign states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The proclaimed state has no agreed territorial borders, or effective control on the territory that it proclaimed

Can you read?

You are asking me to prove that Palestine's international borders have not changed. I can't prove a negative.

It is up to you to prove a dispute of Palestine's borders.

I just showed you a link that says Palestine has no agreed territorial borders. Can YOU prove otherwise using a link ?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Where did you read that the 1922 borders are still in effect ? Looks like you're making stuff up once again

List of sovereign states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The proclaimed state has no agreed territorial borders, or effective control on the territory that it proclaimed

Can you read?

You are asking me to prove that Palestine's international borders have not changed. I can't prove a negative.

It is up to you to prove a dispute of Palestine's borders.

I just showed you a link that says Palestine has no agreed territorial borders. Can YOU prove otherwise using a link ?

That is just say so unless there is a valid link.

Who disputed the borders? How was the dispute resolved? What were the results?

All of that would be documented.

 

[toastman]

You use wikipedia all the time. I'll take their word over yours.

So far, you have provided ZERO evidence (as usual) to back up your claim

 

[P F Tinmore]

You use wikipedia all the time. I'll take their word over yours.

So far, you have provided ZERO evidence (as usual) to back up your claim

It was your claim.

You flopped.

 

[toastman]

It's not a claim, it's a fact. I provided a link. You did not dispute the link .
I also showed you the link for Israels borders with Egypt and Jordan, and you claimed they were null, but provided zero evidence.

So lets try one more time, do you have any link or document to prove that Palestine does have agreed territorial borders in the present time ?? Yes or no

 

[P F Tinmore]

It's not a claim, it's a fact. I provided a link. You did not dispute the link .
I also showed you the link for Israels borders with Egypt and Jordan, and you claimed they were null, but provided zero evidence.

So lets try one more time, do you have any link or document to prove that Palestine does have agreed territorial borders in the present time ?? Yes or no

I proved that Palestine had international borders as of 1949.

The only thing you have is something that was said in Wikipedia with nothing to back it up. What links did they reference to confirm that opinion?

You don't have anything.

 

[toastman]

It's not a claim, it's a fact. I provided a link. You did not dispute the link .
I also showed you the link for Israels borders with Egypt and Jordan, and you claimed they were null, but provided zero evidence.

So lets try one more time, do you have any link or document to prove that Palestine does have agreed territorial borders in the present time ?? Yes or no

I proved that Palestine had international borders as of 1949.

The only thing you have is something that was said in Wikipedia with nothing to back it up. What links did they reference to confirm that opinion?

You don't have anything.

You proved nothing liar.
I'll take wikipedia word over yours

YOU have nothing. No link, just claims.

Are you trying to say that the Wiki article made a mistake about the lack of agreed territorial borders of Palestine ?

 

[toastman]

LOL I provide you with a link and you ask me for a link to back up that link ?
Sounds like some serious desperation on your part.

But hey, it's not my fault you can't accept reality.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

No, you have not proved anything.

It's not a claim, it's a fact. I provided a link. You did not dispute the link .
I also showed you the link for Israels borders with Egypt and Jordan, and you claimed they were null, but provided zero evidence.

So lets try one more time, do you have any link or document to prove that Palestine does have agreed territorial borders in the present time ?? Yes or no

I proved that Palestine had international borders as of 1949.

The only thing you have is something that was said in Wikipedia with nothing to back it up. What links did they reference to confirm that opinion?

You don't have anything.

(COMMENT)

There was NO State of Palestine in 1949.

The 1948 borders of Israel expanded as a result of the failed aggressive acts of the Palestinians and the Arab League to invade and take be force, that which was not authorized by the General Assembly.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hossfly]

Where did you read that the 1922 borders are still in effect ? Looks like you're making stuff up once again

List of sovereign states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The proclaimed state has no agreed territorial borders, or effective control on the territory that it proclaimed

Can you read?

The Criteria For Inclusion is in your link. Where does Tinmore get his information?


Criteria for inclusion[edit]

The dominant customary international law standard of statehood is the declarative theory of statehood that defines the state as a person of international law if it "possess[es] the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) a capacity to enter into relations with the other states." Debate exists on the degree to which recognition should be included as a criterion of statehood. The declarative theory of statehood, an example of which can be found in the Montevideo Convention, argues that statehood is purely objective and recognition of a state by other states is irrelevant. On the other end of the spectrum, the constitutive theory of statehood defines a state as a person under international law only if it is recognised as sovereign by other states. For the purposes of this list, included are all states that either:
(a) have declared independence and are often regarded as having control over a permanently populated territory

or
(b) are recognised as a sovereign state by at least one other sovereign state

Note that in some cases there is a divergence of opinion over the interpretation of the first point, and whether an entity satisfies it is disputed.

On the basis of the above criteria, this list includes the following 206 entities:[62][Note 29]
203 states recognised by at least one UN member state
Two states that control a permanently populated territory and are recognised only by non-UN member states: Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, Transnistria
One state that controls a permanently populated territory and is not recognised by any other state: Somaliland

Indeed.

...the state as a person of international law if it "possess[es] the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory;...

More than half a century after independence, David Ben-Gurion’s “normal” country still lacks one of the fundamental attributes of a normal state: borders.

http://www.inss.org.il/publications.php?cat=21&incat=&read=203

Tinnie you can blabber on and on all you want about borders, but the fact still remains that Israel exists as a country regardless of the Muslims leaving it off of their maps. Now if you feel that the Israeli Jews confiscated some of your family's property, why not show them a deed to prove that the property belonged to your family?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

No, you have not proved anything.

It's not a claim, it's a fact. I provided a link. You did not dispute the link .
I also showed you the link for Israels borders with Egypt and Jordan, and you claimed they were null, but provided zero evidence.

So lets try one more time, do you have any link or document to prove that Palestine does have agreed territorial borders in the present time ?? Yes or no

I proved that Palestine had international borders as of 1949.

The only thing you have is something that was said in Wikipedia with nothing to back it up. What links did they reference to confirm that opinion?

You don't have anything.

(COMMENT)

There was NO State of Palestine in 1949.

The 1948 borders of Israel expanded as a result of the failed aggressive acts of the Palestinians and the Arab League to invade and take be force, that which was not authorized by the General Assembly.

Most Respectfully,
R

Palestine was mentioned many times in the 1949 armistice agreements. So whatever it was, it was there and it had international borders.

Your "expanding border" theory simply is not true.

Haim Ramon, a strong contender for leadership, has stressed an anomaly that has characterized Israel since its creation: “We are the only country in the world without a border,...

Israel’s Declaration of Independence was conspicuously silent on the question of borders, and notwithstanding explicit requests by President Harry Truman, Ben-Gurion refused to clarify whether Israel accepted the boundaries specified in 181.

http://www.inss.org.il/publications.php?cat=21&incat=&read=203

Israel never accepted the proposed borders of 181. It had no borders to expand from.

Not only that, Israel was already cleansing Palestine of its natives beyond the proposed 181 borders before any Arab country entered Palestine.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, there is always the denial of fact.

P F Tinmore, et al,

No, you have not proved anything.

I proved that Palestine had international borders as of 1949.

The only thing you have is something that was said in Wikipedia with nothing to back it up. What links did they reference to confirm that opinion?

You don't have anything.

(COMMENT)

There was NO State of Palestine in 1949.

The 1948 borders of Israel expanded as a result of the failed aggressive acts of the Palestinians and the Arab League to invade and take be force, that which was not authorized by the General Assembly.

Most Respectfully,
R

Palestine was mentioned many times in the 1949 armistice agreements. So whatever it was, it was there and it had international borders.

Your "expanding border" theory simply is not true.

Haim Ramon, a strong contender for leadership, has stressed an anomaly that has characterized Israel since its creation: “We are the only country in the world without a border,...

Israel’s Declaration of Independence was conspicuously silent on the question of borders, and notwithstanding explicit requests by President Harry Truman, Ben-Gurion refused to clarify whether Israel accepted the boundaries specified in 181.

http://www.inss.org.il/publications.php?cat=21&incat=&read=203

Israel never accepted the proposed borders of 181. It had no borders to expand from.

Not only that, Israel was already cleansing Palestine of its natives beyond the proposed 181 borders before any Arab country entered Palestine.

(COMMENT)

It is obvious that you didn't actually read and comprehend the pre-Admissions discussions or the declaration. By reading both, it becomes clear that General Assembly Resolution of 29 November, 1947 [which is GA/Res/181(II)] was fundamental to Application, Independence, and final recognition and acceptance into the United Nations. In fact all of the basic documents pertaining to the original independence and recognition of the State of Israel cite GA/Res/181(II) as a basic document.

Now, having said that, the War of Independence (and the bungled Arab intervention) did result in a boundary dispute that persist even today. But none of that suggests that Israel did not, in the beginning, accept the allocated partition in GA/Res/181(II). What changed the dynamics was the war. And because the outcome was not to the Palestinians favor, they continually come up with all sorts of arguments like this to justify their struggle and continued pursuit of violence.

BUT, it is a matter of record that:

“The consultations among the permanent members of the Security Council and informal communications with the Palestine Commission, the Mandatory Power, the Jewish Agency and the Arab Higher Committee, held since, 5 March 1948, have developed the following facts regarding the situation with respect to Palestine:

“1. The Jewish Agency accepts the partition plan, considers it to be the irreducible minimum acceptable to the Jews, and insists upon the implementation of the plan without modification.

“2. The Arab Higher Committee rejects any solution based on partition in any form and considers that the only acceptable solution is the formation of one independent State for the whole of Palestine, the constitution of which would be based on democratic principles and which would include adequate safeguards for minorities and the safety of the Holy Places.

“3. No modifications in the essentials of the partition plan are acceptable to the Jewish Agency, and no modifications would make the plan acceptable to the Arab Higher Committee.

SOURCE: S/PV.270 of 19 March 1948

Most Respectfully,
R