obama caves again

[Skull Pilot]

Yes, unemployable people with addictions are a problem.

Because unlike you, most people will not let people just starve to death.

Which is probably okay with folks like you. "Let them die".

The GOP has good ideas, but the heartlessness is offputting to most civilized people.

When Bush called himself a "Compassionate Conservative", he was ridiculed.

Why the fuck should i have to pay for some loser drug addict when it was his choices that got him where he is?

Sooner or later people have to start being responsible for themselves.

That's not the point.

The point is that addiction is an illness. (Yes, even for poor addicts, not just Rush Limbaugh). We are treating a medical problem like a criminal one, we lock up more people than any country in the world, and we've created a permanent criminal class.

Every other country got this and treated it like a medical problem. America figured out that there was a way for Rich people to make money, so we got the War on Drugs.

Addiction is a choice.

 

[G.T.]

Why the fuck should i have to pay for some loser drug addict when it was his choices that got him where he is?

Sooner or later people have to start being responsible for themselves.

That's not the point.

The point is that addiction is an illness. (Yes, even for poor addicts, not just Rush Limbaugh). We are treating a medical problem like a criminal one, we lock up more people than any country in the world, and we've created a permanent criminal class.

Every other country got this and treated it like a medical problem. America figured out that there was a way for Rich people to make money, so we got the War on Drugs.

Addiction is a choice.

I guess you dont know much about physical addiction.

 

[Skull Pilot]

That's not the point.

The point is that addiction is an illness. (Yes, even for poor addicts, not just Rush Limbaugh). We are treating a medical problem like a criminal one, we lock up more people than any country in the world, and we've created a permanent criminal class.

Every other country got this and treated it like a medical problem. America figured out that there was a way for Rich people to make money, so we got the War on Drugs.

Addiction is a choice.

I guess you dont know much about physical addiction.

I know enough and there is a voluntary aspect to addiction that is not present in actual diseases like cancer.

To say there is not an aspect of choice in addiction is being intentionally ignorant.

 

[G.T.]

Addiction is a choice.

I guess you dont know much about physical addiction.

I know enough and there is a voluntary aspect to addiction that is not present in actual diseases like cancer.

To say there is not an aspect of choice in addiction is being intentionally ignorant.

There's an aspect of choice in doing the drug to begin with, but you said "addiction" is a choice.

Becoming addicted is involuntary. The choice is doing the drug or not doing the drug, after that - - - it's in the chemical make-up of your body's hands.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I guess you dont know much about physical addiction.

I know enough and there is a voluntary aspect to addiction that is not present in actual diseases like cancer.

To say there is not an aspect of choice in addiction is being intentionally ignorant.

There's an aspect of choice in doing the drug to begin with, but you said "addiction" is a choice.

Becoming addicted is involuntary. The choice is doing the drug or not doing the drug, after that - - - it's in the chemical make-up of your body's hands.

One does not become addicted unless one is persistent in the taking of addictive substances.

One time use does not an addict make. So the decision to use and use persistently is what results in the physical addiction.

 

[G.T.]

I know enough and there is a voluntary aspect to addiction that is not present in actual diseases like cancer.

To say there is not an aspect of choice in addiction is being intentionally ignorant.

There's an aspect of choice in doing the drug to begin with, but you said "addiction" is a choice.

Becoming addicted is involuntary. The choice is doing the drug or not doing the drug, after that - - - it's in the chemical make-up of your body's hands.

One does not become addicted unless one is persistent in the taking of addictive substances.

One time use does not an addict make. So the decision to use and use persistently is what results in the physical addiction.

If you're purporting that there's no 1-use addictive drugs - you're wrong. I know I don't need to google it for you, either -

 

[zeke]

Don't know that Obama caved on anything. But it sure sounds like Rethugs caved on the payroll tax cut. How did that happen?

Amazing ignorance on display concerning addiction. Why am I not surprised. Guess Rethugs never become addicted, unless the Doctor perscribed it. But then, you are not really addicted IF the drugs you take were perscribed by your doc.

Doubt if the drug addict Limpball got his first name because he was in a hurry to do something. Think it came about from the first "rush" of oxycotin.

 

[zeke]

I know a recovering crack addict who says he was addicted first crack pipe.

 

[JoeB131]

That's not the point.

The point is that addiction is an illness. (Yes, even for poor addicts, not just Rush Limbaugh). We are treating a medical problem like a criminal one, we lock up more people than any country in the world, and we've created a permanent criminal class.

Every other country got this and treated it like a medical problem. America figured out that there was a way for Rich people to make money, so we got the War on Drugs.

Addiction is a choice.

I guess you dont know much about physical addiction.

The holier than thou types never do.

 

[JoeB131]

Don't know that Obama caved on anything. But it sure sounds like Rethugs caved on the payroll tax cut. How did that happen?

Amazing ignorance on display concerning addiction. Why am I not surprised. Guess Rethugs never become addicted, unless the Doctor perscribed it. But then, you are not really addicted IF the drugs you take were perscribed by your doc.

Doubt if the drug addict Limpball got his first name because he was in a hurry to do something. Think it came about from the first "rush" of oxycotin.

Actually, Rush got his first name because that was his father and grandfathers name. He's actually Rush Limbaugh III.

I'm a Republican who see my party as something I recongize less every day. It's not just the meanness of spirit that bothers me, it's the inefficiency.

Forget about how mean "lock them up" or "let them die" sounds. That it's just plain wasteful that's really offensive.

 

[zeke]

So his name just happened to work well with his addiction? Who would have thunk it.

Unless Grandpa liked a little bowl of opium ever now and then. That will give you a rush I hear.

You know, I have read what you write when I "see" you and I admit, you are a repub that is worth reading. You have nuance to your thought process. Very unusual for a Repub.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Addiction is a choice.

I guess you dont know much about physical addiction.

The holier than thou types never do.

I'm not religious.

I just don't like to make excuses for other peoples' choices.

 

[Skull Pilot]

There's an aspect of choice in doing the drug to begin with, but you said "addiction" is a choice.

Becoming addicted is involuntary. The choice is doing the drug or not doing the drug, after that - - - it's in the chemical make-up of your body's hands.

One does not become addicted unless one is persistent in the taking of addictive substances.

One time use does not an addict make. So the decision to use and use persistently is what results in the physical addiction.

If you're purporting that there's no 1-use addictive drugs - you're wrong. I know I don't need to google it for you, either -

Give me the scientific study that proves one use of a drug can cause physical addiction.

 

[Papageorgio]

Yes, unemployable people with addictions are a problem.

Because unlike you, most people will not let people just starve to death.

Which is probably okay with folks like you. "Let them die".

The GOP has good ideas, but the heartlessness is offputting to most civilized people.

When Bush called himself a "Compassionate Conservative", he was ridiculed.

Why the fuck should i have to pay for some loser drug addict when it was his choices that got him where he is?

Sooner or later people have to start being responsible for themselves.

That's not the point.

The point is that addiction is an illness. (Yes, even for poor addicts, not just Rush Limbaugh). We are treating a medical problem like a criminal one, we lock up more people than any country in the world, and we've created a permanent criminal class.

Every other country got this and treated it like a medical problem. America figured out that there was a way for Rich people to make money, so we got the War on Drugs.

Southeast Asia, death penalty for possession, Turkey 10-20 years doubled if cocaine or heroin, that is how other countries deal with medical problems? Hmmmm....

 

[Papageorgio]

Why the fuck should i have to pay for some loser drug addict when it was his choices that got him where he is?

Sooner or later people have to start being responsible for themselves.

That's not the point.

The point is that addiction is an illness. (Yes, even for poor addicts, not just Rush Limbaugh). We are treating a medical problem like a criminal one, we lock up more people than any country in the world, and we've created a permanent criminal class.

Every other country got this and treated it like a medical problem. America figured out that there was a way for Rich people to make money, so we got the War on Drugs.

Addiction is a choice.

You might want to read on addiction and addictive personalities, the first time taking many drugs can lead to an addiction. It is a real problem, that is why cocaine, which was used often and over the counter as pain medication, is now illegal.

 

[Skull Pilot]

That's not the point.

The point is that addiction is an illness. (Yes, even for poor addicts, not just Rush Limbaugh). We are treating a medical problem like a criminal one, we lock up more people than any country in the world, and we've created a permanent criminal class.

Every other country got this and treated it like a medical problem. America figured out that there was a way for Rich people to make money, so we got the War on Drugs.

Addiction is a choice.

You might want to read on addiction and addictive personalities, the first time taking many drugs can lead to an addiction. It is a real problem, that is why cocaine, which was used often and over the counter as pain medication, is now illegal.

I have yet to see a study where one dose of a drug caused physical addiction and withdrawal symptoms.

It's more that people liked the way they felt on a drug and continued taking the drug until physical addiction occurred.

 

[saveliberty]

Can't get addicted to drugs you don't take. True story. Most truly addicted people break other laws in support of their habit. Suppose we are going to look the other way on those too?

 

[Papageorgio]

Can't get addicted to drugs you don't take. True story. Most truly addicted people break other laws in support of their habit. Suppose we are going to look the other way on those too?

Never look the other way, but most addicts have reasons they are addicted and it comes from other issues in their lives, it is no excuse for the behavior, but there has to be a degree of understanding as to the why, once you define the why, then you can work on the why. If the why is defined, then the addiction can be treated. Most addicts don't want to be addicted, it is the last thing they want.

 

[Papageorgio]

Addiction is a choice.

You might want to read on addiction and addictive personalities, the first time taking many drugs can lead to an addiction. It is a real problem, that is why cocaine, which was used often and over the counter as pain medication, is now illegal.

I have yet to see a study where one dose of a drug caused physical addiction and withdrawal symptoms.

It's more that people liked the way they felt on a drug and continued taking the drug until physical addiction occurred.

Cocaine doesn't have withdrawal symptoms, one dose of cocaine can cause a mental addiction, cocaine is a mental not physical addiction it is mental. I know someone that fought it for years. The euphoria is the addiction and the brain craves the coke, that is why it is such a dangerous drug.

 

[JDzBrain]

Ok, since this is the direction this thread has turned and I have some not to inconsiderable PERSONAL experience with the subject...having spent nearly 20 years practicing better living through chemistry...lets just talk frankly about the subject. And please forgive the length of the post, but it is a COMPLEX subject. ;~)

First...you CAN get addicted from the first jolt. Then...you can NOT get addicted from the first jolt. It IS determined by the bio chemistry of the individual. It is NOT determined by the bio chemistry of the individual. Addiction IS just the product of an addictive personality. Addiction is NOT just the product of the addictive personality.

ALL TRUE!!!!!

How can that be? It can be because people become addicted to ALL KINDS of things, for all kinds of reasons. EVERYONE is addicted to something!

It's a genetically programed survival strategy that has allowed us to become who we are. Some addictions are sparked by external chemical triggers, some by external physical triggers, some by internal stimulus, but all addictions are the result of a reward paid to the brain for an activity.

It's simple biology and it doesn't matter WHAT the addiction is...the symptom is the same. The only difference is the extent to which the individual brain is altered and the individual's ability to control the accompanying compulsion!

Now there is another TRUTH of addiction that is every bit as fundamental that we have to recognize. Addiction is in our DNA and WE CAN NOT FIX IT!!!

At least to this point, there is no reset button on the brain, no magic pill that will re-balance the brains chemistry, no spinning hypno ball will relieve the REAL compulsions felt by the addicted. The ONLY person or thing that can fix addiction...IS THE ADDICTED!

Now I've read the statistics being passed around here as supposed evidence to support one side or the other of the way we treat addicts. Well, here are a few facts.

Yes...according to the Bureau of Justice prisons have a NEARLY 70% recidivism rate within the first 3 years of release as a whole. However...that includes EVERY KIND of crime. People incarcerated for car theft re offend at nearly 80%, selling and receiving stolen property about 78%, 71% on gun charges and you know what's weird? Of the ones arrested for homicide, just BARELY over 1% re offend.

So what's the lesson? There is NO evidence beyond the anecdotal stories by habitual thieves and liars as to how much of this crime is to support drug use. The recitivisam may well be as much a result of an addiction to the money...that survival strategy...or the adrenaline accompanying the criminal activity as anything else. In that way...ALL crime is a result of an addiction!

What's the truth of that? WE CAN'T FIX ADDICTION!!!!

So what's the solution? Well, it is DAMN sure not to let addicts, whether it's addiction to drugs or car theft, wonder around doing crime at night and attending Rehab during the day.

Cause here's the thing, drug offender recidivism occurs at about a 60% rate. Not much different than other so called "more serious" crimes. Nearly half of those, or 30% are imprisoned for a DIFFERENT...more serious crime. Now that percentage drops to about 41% for first time offenders, but the prognosis is NOT GOOD for repeat offenders!

That also means that we will be 300% safer as a society if we let convicted killers out of prison than drug offenders. Is THAT what you are arguing for?

BESIDES all that, the BEST drug rehab programs claim, and it is just a claim since there are so few long term studies, they claim 40-50% success rates, the FACTs are that relapses occur at about a 70% rate in all addiction rehab programs.

So, what's the difference between putting addicts in prison and putting them in some rehab program? That 41% that commits a more serious crime won't be out in society to KILL YOUR GRANNY!

Now I can see the value of giving first time NON VIOLENT drug related offenders a shot at rehab...ONCE. But we can NOT fix these people. Only THEY can do that. And I don't want them wondering around in the dark looking for a way to pay for their next fix. Or worse yet...forcing me to live with shooting them DEAD in my hallway in the middle of the night!

When you invent a magic pill to fix addiction...give me a call. Cause all this progressive/touchy feely/make me feel better about myself Drug Courts crap has been a DISMAL FAILURE everywhere it's been tried. It's cost BILLIONS on top of the eventual and inevitable incarceration and delivered the SAME RESULT!