Obama stimulus is failed

[Salt Jones]

Walter Mead has a good analysis which explains why Obama's stimulus failed. He explains how Big Government Progressivism has gone through four phases: Great White Hope, Great White Father, Great White Elephant, and finally Great White Shark. If we don't stop this madness, we'll achieve the fifth and final phase: The Great White Whale.

The Obama Stimulus is a Phase 4 effort.

The life cycle of a governing political paradigm is different from the cycle of a TV sitcom. It takes more to sink a way of life than to sink a sitcom, and the aftermath is much messier. But to grasp what it means to say that progressivism is jumping the shark, let us look at the stages of life in a progressive government program.

In the first stage of a government program, there’s a terrible social problem that has people wringing their hands. Not enough kids are going to college. Middle class families can’t get home mortgages. The river keeps flooding the town. Sick old people who have worked all their lives are eating cat food in the hobo jungle.

The government offers a solution that will fix the problem at a relatively modest cost. It is the hero cutting the heroine loose from the railroad tracks as the train approaches. It is the Lone Ranger riding into town to fix the bad guys. The government program in this early stage is the Great White Hope: once we get it up and running, people believe, life is going to get better....

When Government Jumps the Shark | Via Meadia

Actually the stimulus succeeded.

It saved us from another Great Depression and created 15 straight months of job growth.

How can you possibly say that? The UE hasn't changed. The stimulus was designed to lower the UE, but it hasn't done that.

Would the UE be lower without the stimulus?

 

[The Rabbi]

Actually the stimulus succeeded.

It saved us from another Great Depression and created 15 straight months of job growth.

How can you possibly say that? The UE hasn't changed. The stimulus was designed to lower the UE, but it hasn't done that.

Would the UE be lower without the stimulus?

Are you still peddling this shit?
The answer is yes, it would be lower. Much lower. But if you consider 9% unemployment a success then you need to run with that.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Based on that kind of reasoning there is no way to know what effect ANY action would have on the economy. So throwing trillions of dollars at it was merely a guess.
DO you really want to go down that road?

Not true. Noting this situation is not like the ones you are trying to compare it to is not saying that it's a unique circumstance in the history of human events.

So you can compare different periods except when you can't.
Got it.
Are you really this dumb?

We're comparing Ronald Reagan's massive tax increase in 1982, just prior to the end of the 81/82 recession,

to what should be done now, you know, to get that awesome 80's expansion going.

 

[NYcarbineer]

How can you possibly say that? The UE hasn't changed. The stimulus was designed to lower the UE, but it hasn't done that.

Would the UE be lower without the stimulus?

Are you still peddling this shit?
The answer is yes, it would be lower. Much lower. But if you consider 9% unemployment a success then you need to run with that.

What would cause it to be lower had the stimulus not happened? Would the lack of the 300 billion in tax cuts that were in the stimulus have been a better stimulus for job creation?

The 400 to 800 dollar tax credit for 2 years, the making work pay credit, that was in the stimulus bill. Had no one gotten that money, would they have spent MORE? Would they have stimulated the economy by spending the 800 they didn't get and then some?

Would the lack of the money to the states to keep people working, so that those people would have been laid off, how would that have created more jobs? How would that, first of all, found jobs for the state workers getting laid off, before we even get to creating new jobs?

And all those signs I saw along NY and PA roads a summer or two ago, the signs that said this road construction project is being paid for with money from the stimulus, where would the guys who were working there have been working had there been no stimulus?

Be specific in your claim. Show us how the absence of stimulus would have been itself a stimulus.

 

[boedicca]

Walter Mead has a good analysis which explains why Obama's stimulus failed. He explains how Big Government Progressivism has gone through four phases: Great White Hope, Great White Father, Great White Elephant, and finally Great White Shark. If we don't stop this madness, we'll achieve the fifth and final phase: The Great White Whale.

The Obama Stimulus is a Phase 4 effort.

The life cycle of a governing political paradigm is different from the cycle of a TV sitcom. It takes more to sink a way of life than to sink a sitcom, and the aftermath is much messier. But to grasp what it means to say that progressivism is jumping the shark, let us look at the stages of life in a progressive government program.

In the first stage of a government program, there’s a terrible social problem that has people wringing their hands. Not enough kids are going to college. Middle class families can’t get home mortgages. The river keeps flooding the town. Sick old people who have worked all their lives are eating cat food in the hobo jungle.

The government offers a solution that will fix the problem at a relatively modest cost. It is the hero cutting the heroine loose from the railroad tracks as the train approaches. It is the Lone Ranger riding into town to fix the bad guys. The government program in this early stage is the Great White Hope: once we get it up and running, people believe, life is going to get better....

When Government Jumps the Shark | Via Meadia

Actually the stimulus succeeded.

It saved us from another Great Depression and created 15 straight months of job growth.

No it didn't. IT MADE THINGS WORSE. The U.S. is enduring the Worst Recovery Ever.

Thanks Obama!

 

[NYcarbineer]

how so?

It's a matter of mechanism. His argument is that government spending can't lift/help to lift the economy out of recession. How does fighting a way expand the economy? By a massive injection of government spending.

Which was a total failure from 1933 until Hitler's invasion of Poland.

Epic Fail.

Epic Fail every time its been tried.

You do understand that WWII was a massive government spending program, right? If massive government spending programs, on borrowed money, can't bring a country out of recession,

how come that one did?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Walter Mead has a good analysis which explains why Obama's stimulus failed. He explains how Big Government Progressivism has gone through four phases: Great White Hope, Great White Father, Great White Elephant, and finally Great White Shark. If we don't stop this madness, we'll achieve the fifth and final phase: The Great White Whale.

The Obama Stimulus is a Phase 4 effort.

The life cycle of a governing political paradigm is different from the cycle of a TV sitcom. It takes more to sink a way of life than to sink a sitcom, and the aftermath is much messier. But to grasp what it means to say that progressivism is jumping the shark, let us look at the stages of life in a progressive government program.

In the first stage of a government program, there’s a terrible social problem that has people wringing their hands. Not enough kids are going to college. Middle class families can’t get home mortgages. The river keeps flooding the town. Sick old people who have worked all their lives are eating cat food in the hobo jungle.

The government offers a solution that will fix the problem at a relatively modest cost. It is the hero cutting the heroine loose from the railroad tracks as the train approaches. It is the Lone Ranger riding into town to fix the bad guys. The government program in this early stage is the Great White Hope: once we get it up and running, people believe, life is going to get better....

When Government Jumps the Shark | Via Meadia

Actually the stimulus succeeded.

It saved us from another Great Depression and created 15 straight months of job growth.

No it didn't. IT MADE THINGS WORSE. The U.S. is enduring the Worst Recovery Ever.

Thanks Obama!

You have to demonstrate, with evidence, that things would have been better had there been no stimulus.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

It's a matter of mechanism. His argument is that government spending can't lift/help to lift the economy out of recession. How does fighting a way expand the economy? By a massive injection of government spending.

Which was a total failure from 1933 until Hitler's invasion of Poland.

Epic Fail.

Epic Fail every time its been tried.

You do understand that WWII was a massive government spending program, right? If massive government spending programs, on borrowed money, can't bring a country out of recession,

how come that one did?

If it can, how come the New Deal never did?

 

[boedicca]

It's a matter of mechanism. His argument is that government spending can't lift/help to lift the economy out of recession. How does fighting a way expand the economy? By a massive injection of government spending.

Which was a total failure from 1933 until Hitler's invasion of Poland.

Epic Fail.

Epic Fail every time its been tried.

You do understand that WWII was a massive government spending program, right? If massive government spending programs, on borrowed money, can't bring a country out of recession,

how come that one did?

Are you suggesting we start a World War to solve the current economic morass? And it's a myth that FDR got us out of the Great Depression:

What about World War II? We need to understand that the near-full employment during the conflict was temporary. Ten million to 12 million soldiers overseas and another 10 million to 15 million people making tanks, bullets and war materiel do not a lasting recovery make. The country essentially traded temporary jobs for a skyrocketing national debt. Many of those jobs had little or no value after the war.

No one knew this more than FDR himself. His key advisers were frantic at the possibility of the Great Depression's return when the war ended and the soldiers came home. The president believed a New Deal revival was the answer—and on Oct. 28, 1944, about six months before his death, he spelled out his vision for a postwar America. It included government-subsidized housing, federal involvement in health care, more TVA projects, and the "right to a useful and remunerative job" provided by the federal government if necessary.

Roosevelt died before the war ended and before he could implement his New Deal revival. His successor, Harry Truman, in a 16,000 word message on Sept. 6, 1945, urged Congress to enact FDR's ideas as the best way to achieve full employment after the war.

Congress—both chambers with Democratic majorities—responded by just saying "no." No to the whole New Deal revival: no federal program for health care, no full-employment act, only limited federal housing, and no increase in minimum wage or Social Security benefits.

Instead, Congress reduced taxes. Income tax rates were cut across the board. FDR's top marginal rate, 94% on all income over $200,000, was cut to 86.45%. The lowest rate was cut to 19% from 23%, and with a change in the amount of income exempt from taxation an estimated 12 million Americans were eliminated from the tax rolls entirely.Corporate tax rates were trimmed and FDR's "excess profits" tax was repealed, which meant that top marginal corporate tax rates effectively went to 38% from 90% after 1945.

Georgia Sen. Walter George, chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, defended the Revenue Act of 1945 with arguments that today we would call "supply-side economics." If the tax bill "has the effect which it is hoped it will have," George said, "it will so stimulate the expansion of business as to bring in a greater total revenue." ...


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304024604575173632046893848.html

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Which was a total failure from 1933 until Hitler's invasion of Poland.

Epic Fail.

Epic Fail every time its been tried.

You do understand that WWII was a massive government spending program, right? If massive government spending programs, on borrowed money, can't bring a country out of recession,

how come that one did?

Are you suggesting we start a World War to solve the current economic morass?

That's what Obama in doing in the Middle East

 

[NYcarbineer]

How can you possibly say that? The UE hasn't changed. The stimulus was designed to lower the UE, but it hasn't done that.

Would the UE be lower without the stimulus?

Are you still peddling this shit?
The answer is yes, it would be lower. Much lower. But if you consider 9% unemployment a success then you need to run with that.

9% is better than 11%. Or 12%. or 13%.

 

[boedicca]

Actually the stimulus succeeded.

It saved us from another Great Depression and created 15 straight months of job growth.

No it didn't. IT MADE THINGS WORSE. The U.S. is enduring the Worst Recovery Ever.

Thanks Obama!

You have to demonstrate, with evidence, that things would have been better had there been no stimulus.

The proof is that their prediction of what would have happened without the Stimulus is better than where we are now after it was enacted.

 

[boedicca]

Would the UE be lower without the stimulus?

Are you still peddling this shit?
The answer is yes, it would be lower. Much lower. But if you consider 9% unemployment a success then you need to run with that.

9% is better than 11%. Or 12%. or 13%.

Obama made up the 11%, 12% or 13% after the Epic Fail occurred.

And the only reason why official unemployment is not 11.2% RIGHT NOW is because 3.6M people are no longer counted as unemployed because they have GIVEN UP LOOKING FOR WORK.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Which was a total failure from 1933 until Hitler's invasion of Poland.

Epic Fail.

Epic Fail every time its been tried.

You do understand that WWII was a massive government spending program, right? If massive government spending programs, on borrowed money, can't bring a country out of recession,

how come that one did?

Are you suggesting we start a World War to solve the current economic morass?

No. I am pointing out that if you believe that it was WWII that ended the Great Depression then you are acknowledging that a massive government spending program can in fact be stimulative and get an economy growing again.

NO ONE is going to embark on a government stimulus program the size of a preparation for and prosecution of a war the size of WWII,

but it would be stimulative.

The reason Keynesian economics are a bad idea nowadays is that you are supposed to pay down the money you borrow to stimulate the economy after the economy picks up. Americans won't do that.

 

[boedicca]

You do understand that WWII was a massive government spending program, right? If massive government spending programs, on borrowed money, can't bring a country out of recession,

how come that one did?

Are you suggesting we start a World War to solve the current economic morass?

No. I am pointing out that if you believe that it was WWII that ended the Great Depression then you are acknowledging that a massive government spending program can in fact be stimulative and get an economy growing again.

NO ONE is going to embark on a government stimulus program the size of a preparation for and prosecution of a war the size of WWII,

but it would be stimulative.

The reason Keynesian economics are a bad idea nowadays is that you are supposed to pay down the money you borrow to stimulate the economy after the economy picks up. Americans won't do that.

You are mistaken if you think I believe WWII ended the Great Depression.

It didn't, as I noted in a post #349.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Are you still peddling this shit?
The answer is yes, it would be lower. Much lower. But if you consider 9% unemployment a success then you need to run with that.

9% is better than 11%. Or 12%. or 13%.

Obama made up the 11%, 12% or 13% after the Epic Fail occurred.

And the only reason why official unemployment is not 11.2% RIGHT NOW is because 3.6M people are no longer counted as unemployed because they have GIVEN UP LOOKING FOR WORK.

No, I made them up. That's how you people are arguing. You're claiming that the stimulus failed because it didn't achieve some made up numbers.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Which was a total failure from 1933 until Hitler's invasion of Poland.

Epic Fail.

Epic Fail every time its been tried.

You do understand that WWII was a massive government spending program, right? If massive government spending programs, on borrowed money, can't bring a country out of recession,

how come that one did?

If it can, how come the New Deal never did?

It wasn't big enough.

 

[The Rabbi]

It's a matter of mechanism. His argument is that government spending can't lift/help to lift the economy out of recession. How does fighting a way expand the economy? By a massive injection of government spending.

Which was a total failure from 1933 until Hitler's invasion of Poland.

Epic Fail.

Epic Fail every time its been tried.

You do understand that WWII was a massive government spending program, right? If massive government spending programs, on borrowed money, can't bring a country out of recession,

how come that one did?

That one did. The New Deal did not.
WW2 did because it instituted a command economy. Command economies work for a short period. The Soviet Union was a growth engine initially.
After the war the Democrats failed to continue the New Deal and we had the greatest prosperity ever.

 

[boedicca]

Obama predicting double digit employment after the Stimulus fails to improve things:

President Barack Obama said Tuesday that he expects nationwide unemployment to exceed 10 percent this year.

He reiterated a previous assertion that the United States is in the midst of the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression.

"I anticipate this is going to be a difficult period," Obama said.


Obama: unemployment will likely hit double digits – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

 

[boedicca]

Which was a total failure from 1933 until Hitler's invasion of Poland.

Epic Fail.

Epic Fail every time its been tried.

You do understand that WWII was a massive government spending program, right? If massive government spending programs, on borrowed money, can't bring a country out of recession,

how come that one did?

That one did. The New Deal did not.
WW2 did because it instituted a command economy. Command economies work for a short period. The Soviet Union was a growth engine initially.
After the war the Democrats failed to continue the New Deal and we had the greatest prosperity ever.

And we still had double digit unemployment rates even with all the War Spending.