ObamaCare...

[auditor0007]

Funny, how I just stumbled upon this article. Talk about perfect timing.

Hospital Prices No Longer Secret As New Data Reveals Bewildering System, Staggering Cost Differences

When a patient arrives at Bayonne Hospital Center in New Jersey requiring treatment for the respiratory ailment known as COPD, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, she faces an official price tag of $99,690.

Less than 30 miles away in the Bronx, N.Y., the Lincoln Medical and Mental Health Center ch
arges only $7,044 for the same treatment, according to a massive federal database of national health care costs made public on Wednesday.

Hospital Prices No Longer Secret As New Data Reveals Bewildering System, Staggering Cost Differences

I'm sure some of you will tell us why this is not a problem.

 

[DiamondDave]

Does Wal Mart wait till after you've taken the shirt home for a couple of weeks before they tell you what the price is? If you ask a Wal Mart employee how much something is, do they throw up their arms and say "Gee whiz, I dunno, I can't really find that out." ?

Funny.. I have seen the bill each and every time I, or my children have ever had a stay in the hospital...

But that still takes nothing away from the fact that things of differing quality cost different prices.. and there is a difference in the location too (hence why things cost more in NYC than in Bald Knob Arkansas)... but don't let that little fact get in your way.. just ignore it like you typically do

Most people realize that costs are going to be higher in a big city hospital versus a small hospital in rural Kansas. That is not the problem. The problem is that I can get an ultrasound of my liver, which I need every year, at the local hospital or an stand alone imaging center. If I go to the hospital, they will charge me around $2000. My insurance will discount that amount to around $1000, which I will pay, because it falls within my deductible. But if I go to the imaging center down the street, going through insurance, it will only cost me $400, for the same exact procedure. And if I pay cash? Then they only charge me $220.

The imaging center is not giving free care to illegals, does not have as much of a cost associated with real estate, etc.. There are reasons behind price differences.. even if you don't like it...

I know this ahead of time and ask the pertinent questions ahead of time.. like whether my next kidney stone procedure can happen at the outpatient surgery center, etc...

This is not some hippie commune.. this is the real world where things are different and people should realize things are different...

 

[ClosedCaption]

This is the real world where things are different and people should realize things are different...

What? More wisdom from Dave. See, the problem isn't all over the place pricing the problem is people don't realize things are different even when they are the same and shouldn't be.

Dave's solution? Do nothing! Requires no action!

 

[DiamondDave]

This is the real world where things are different and people should realize things are different...

What? More wisdom from Dave. See, the problem isn't all over the place pricing the problem is people don't realize things are different even when they are the same and shouldn't be.

Dave's solution? Do nothing! Requires no action!

Idiot...

Yes.. things do cost different prices for reasons... You are not owed Walmart Prices for the highest quality things in a fucking tourist zone.. The provider of a service or product is free to charge what they have to to stay in business and make money.. I know that the likes of you, troll, don't think that a profession like medicine should make a profit, but they should if they choose to....

Open up competition... allow more groups to compete for group pricing for insurance.. allow more services to be done in outpatient facilities.. there are MANY things that can be done, without more government mandates and control

I know.. why don't you go create yet another troll thread to go to the flame zone?? That will show everyone how rational, logical, and brilliant you are.. LOL

 

[RDD_1210]

Walmart charges $4 for a tshirt.. Pimpercrombe and Bitch charges $45... What gives??



But leave it to a commie troll to want everything to be the same

Does Wal Mart wait till after you've taken the shirt home for a couple of weeks before they tell you what the price is? If you ask a Wal Mart employee how much something is, do they throw up their arms and say "Gee whiz, I dunno, I can't really find that out." ?

Funny.. I have seen the bill each and every time I, or my children have ever had a stay in the hospital...

But that still takes nothing away from the fact that things of differing quality cost different prices.. and there is a difference in the location too (hence why things cost more in NYC than in Bald Knob Arkansas)... but don't let that little fact get in your way.. just ignore it like you typically do

You mean similar to the way you ignored that the story in the OP was comparing hospitals in the very same region. Is that what you mean by ignoring something in your typical fashion?

 

[Skull Pilot]

One hospital charges $8,000 ? another, $38,000

For the first time, the federal government will release the prices that hospitals charge for the 100 most common inpatient procedures. Until now, these charges have been closely held by facilities that see a competitive advantage in shielding their fees from competitors. What the numbers reveal is a health-care system with tremendous, seemingly random variation in the costs of services.

In the District, George Washington University’s average bill for a patient on a ventilator was $115,000, while Providence Hospital’s average charge for the same service was just under $53,000. For a lower joint replacement, George Washington University charged almost $69,000 compared with Sibley Memorial Hospital’s average of just under $30,000.

Virginia’s highest average rate for a lower limb replacement was at CJW Medical Center in Richmond, more than $117,000, compared with Winchester Medical Center charging $25,600 per procedure. CJW charged more than $38,000 for esophagitis and gastrointestinal conditions, while Carilion Tazewell Community Hospital averaged $8,100 in those cases.

Maryland has a unique system for hospital rate charges, so differences were smaller, and its average rate was lower than that of any other state in the most common procedures reviewed by The Washington Post. The highest average charge for a lower joint replacement was $36,000 by University of Maryland Medical Center in Baltimore, much lower than the highest rates in other states.

The Free Market system for Healthcare is all screwed up. Since they never tell how much a procedure is or will be and most don't shop around because when you're sick you don't exactly have the time to do so..that creates this situation

Experts attribute the disparities to a health system that can set prices with impunity because consumers rarely see them — and rarely shop for discounts. Although the government has collected this information for years, it was housed in a bulky database that researchers had to pay to access.

The hospital charges being released Wednesday — all from 2011 — show the hospitals’ average list prices. Adding another layer of opacity, Medicare and private insurance companies typically negotiate lower charges with hospitals. But the data shed light on fees that the uninsured could pay.

Clip*

“It’s true that Medicare and a lot of private insurers never pay the full charge,” said Renee Hsia, an assistant professor at the University of California at San Francisco Medical School whose research focuses on price variation. “But you have a lot of private insurance companies where the consumer pays a portion of the charge. For uninsured patients, they face the full bill. In that sense, the price matters.”

There is no free market for health care.

Try calling up a dozen doctors and asking what their prices for a physical and routine woodwork are.

There is no free market in health insurance either. We are all forced to buy from only what few insurance companies are in our home state.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Funny.. I have seen the bill each and every time I, or my children have ever had a stay in the hospital...

But that still takes nothing away from the fact that things of differing quality cost different prices.. and there is a difference in the location too (hence why things cost more in NYC than in Bald Knob Arkansas)... but don't let that little fact get in your way.. just ignore it like you typically do

Most people realize that costs are going to be higher in a big city hospital versus a small hospital in rural Kansas. That is not the problem. The problem is that I can get an ultrasound of my liver, which I need every year, at the local hospital or an stand alone imaging center. If I go to the hospital, they will charge me around $2000. My insurance will discount that amount to around $1000, which I will pay, because it falls within my deductible. But if I go to the imaging center down the street, going through insurance, it will only cost me $400, for the same exact procedure. And if I pay cash? Then they only charge me $220.

The imaging center is not giving free care to illegals, does not have as much of a cost associated with real estate, etc.. There are reasons behind price differences.. even if you don't like it...

Not as much cost associated with real estate? Since when do the economies of scale not apply?

 

[RDD_1210]

This is the real world where things are different and people should realize things are different...

What? More wisdom from Dave. See, the problem isn't all over the place pricing the problem is people don't realize things are different even when they are the same and shouldn't be.

Dave's solution? Do nothing! Requires no action!

Idiot...

Yes.. things do cost different prices for reasons... You are not owed Walmart Prices for the highest quality things in a fucking tourist zone.. The provider of a service or product is free to charge what they have to to stay in business and make money.. I know that the likes of you, troll, don't think that a profession like medicine should make a profit, but they should if they choose to....

Open up competition... allow more groups to compete for group pricing for insurance.. allow more services to be done in outpatient facilities.. there are MANY things that can be done, without more government mandates and control

I know.. why don't you go create yet another troll thread to go to the flame zone?? That will show everyone how rational, logical, and brilliant you are.. LOL

Dave, do you ever get tired of repeatedly getting your hypocritical viewpoints destroyed in thread after thread?

 

[ClosedCaption]

This is the real world where things are different and people should realize things are different...

What? More wisdom from Dave. See, the problem isn't all over the place pricing the problem is people don't realize things are different even when they are the same and shouldn't be.

Dave's solution? Do nothing! Requires no action!

Idiot...

Yes.. things do cost different prices for reasons... You are not owed Walmart Prices for the highest quality things in a fucking tourist zone.. The provider of a service or product is free to charge what they have to to stay in business and make money.. I know that the likes of you, troll, don't think that a profession like medicine should make a profit, but they should if they choose to....

Not even the hospitals themselves are making that claim Dave. See you have to actually read new information to learn about it. You refuse to read the links posted then make youself look like an ass by saying something NOT FACTUAL

Open up competition... allow more groups to compete for group pricing for insurance.. allow more services to be done in outpatient facilities.. there are MANY things that can be done, without more government mandates and control

I know.. why don't you go create yet another troll thread to go to the flame zone?? That will show everyone how rational, logical, and brilliant you are.. LOL

You seem to take great Pride in where threads go...I have a life, you should get one and start feeling pride in other things like Life

 

[Skull Pilot]

How much more efficient and cost effective would medicine be if people took more control and let the market work for them?

For example If I have a Dr I like and he wants blood work or an Xray what does it matter where I have it done? Why can't I call a lab and get the blood drawn pay the fee for the lab work then bring the results to my Dr?

Why can't I do the same thing for X rays?

We could see private labs set up for routine blood work, X rays, etc and the pressure of the consumer would keep prices in check.

But that would mean people would have to actually be responsible for themselves so it probably won't work.

 

[dblack]

One hospital charges $8,000 ? another, $38,000

For the first time, the federal government will release the prices that hospitals charge for the 100 most common inpatient procedures. Until now, these charges have been closely held by facilities that see a competitive advantage in shielding their fees from competitors. What the numbers reveal is a health-care system with tremendous, seemingly random variation in the costs of services.

In the District, George Washington University’s average bill for a patient on a ventilator was $115,000, while Providence Hospital’s average charge for the same service was just under $53,000. For a lower joint replacement, George Washington University charged almost $69,000 compared with Sibley Memorial Hospital’s average of just under $30,000.

Virginia’s highest average rate for a lower limb replacement was at CJW Medical Center in Richmond, more than $117,000, compared with Winchester Medical Center charging $25,600 per procedure. CJW charged more than $38,000 for esophagitis and gastrointestinal conditions, while Carilion Tazewell Community Hospital averaged $8,100 in those cases.

Maryland has a unique system for hospital rate charges, so differences were smaller, and its average rate was lower than that of any other state in the most common procedures reviewed by The Washington Post. The highest average charge for a lower joint replacement was $36,000 by University of Maryland Medical Center in Baltimore, much lower than the highest rates in other states.

The Free Market system for Healthcare is all screwed up. Since they never tell how much a procedure is or will be and most don't shop around because when you're sick you don't exactly have the time to do so..that creates this situation



Clip*

“It’s true that Medicare and a lot of private insurers never pay the full charge,” said Renee Hsia, an assistant professor at the University of California at San Francisco Medical School whose research focuses on price variation. “But you have a lot of private insurance companies where the consumer pays a portion of the charge. For uninsured patients, they face the full bill. In that sense, the price matters.”

There is no free market for health care.

Try calling up a dozen doctors and asking what their prices for a physical and routine woodwork are.

There is no free market in health insurance either. We are all forced to buy from only what few insurance companies are in our home state.

That's what's so frustrating about the whole mess. The corporatists fuck things up with intrusive regulation and bad policy - and then use the resulting dysfunctional marketplace as the excuse for even more of their statist snake oil.

 

[ClosedCaption]

How much more efficient and cost effective would medicine be if people took more control and let the market work for them?

They cant the costs are hidden

For example If I have a Dr I like and he wants blood work or an Xray what does it matter where I have it done? Why can't I call a lab and get the blood drawn pay the fee for the lab work then bring the results to my Dr?

Why can't I do the same thing for X rays?

We could see private labs set up for routine blood work, X rays, etc and the pressure of the consumer would keep prices in check.

But that would mean people would have to actually be responsible for themselves so it probably won't work.

How would a sick person stick it to the people they need to heal them? You cannot answer that question.

 

[healthmyths]

We need healthcare like those lucky cuban communists get..........

Cuban and "american" comrades agree

I would be happy with a system like that in the UK. So would every American once they understood how it worked. The British system allows those who want to purchase private supplemental insurance, giving those individuals preferential treatment. For one, when they need to see a specialist, they move to the front of the line. That is actually fair since they are paying extra. For everyone else, it is their choice, but no matter what, everyone is covered. Nobody goes bankrupt from medical bills, and everyone gets good quality medical care. And the bottom line? The Brits only pay about 40% of what we pay per person.

Let me explain our current system in real dollars, so you have a better understanding of the true cost. We are currently paying over $9000 per year per person. That is $9000 per year for every single living person in the US, including all those illegals. This includes expenditures for everything including late term care and is paid both by private funds, insurance, and the government.

What you need to understand about the cost is that the cost for one person over a 78 year lifetime, which is the average, works out to $702,000 per person, or $1.4 million for a married couple. The average income in the US is around $40,000 per year. So lets run some numbers. If the average person earns $40,000 per year, and 15% goes to taxes, that leaves them with $34,000 per year. Over a 43 year career, they would earn a net of $1,462,000. Their lifetime medical expenses will be $702,000, or nearly half of their lifetime net earned income.

Can you see how we have a massive problem that is due to us paying too much for healthcare? If most fail to see the problem, then we are most certainly all doomed.

So then YOU agree with this:

• Physicians estimate the cost of defensive medicine in US at $650 to $850 billion per year. This is 26 to 34% of all US healthcare costs.
• Up to 92% of US physicians practice defensive medicine.
• 76% of physicians report that defensive medicine decreases patient access to healthcare.
• 53% of physicians report delaying new techniques, procedures, and treatments due to fear of lawsuits.
• Patients most affected by defensive medicine include those visiting emergency rooms and those requiring surgery.
• Women are most affected by defensive medicine.
• Emergency medicine, primary care, and OB/GYN physicians are most likely to practice defensive medicine.
• 79 to 83% of surgeons and OB/GYNs have been named in lawsuits.

Source:Health News Observer ? Physicians Estimate The Cost Of Defensive Medicine In Us At 650 To 850 Bill Articles

And you obviously agree under Obamacare with taxing tanning salons as the cause cancer right?
Then why is is so wrong to tax 10% of the $200 billion lawyers make that are a direct cause of the $850 billion a year in duplicate tests, specialist referrals the above doctors
say they do???
Then what would be so wrong with then registering the 4 million truly uninsured that need insurance and want it when they go to the hospital they are means tested and registered with the Uninsured Health Ins. Co.© that provides a $5,000 a year premium from the $20 billion in taxes on lawyers?
Hospitals then can't pad and pass as a few do (with markups of 6,000% !) to Medicare/insurance companies.
Thus in one solution we've reduced the $850 billion in defensive medicine AND reduced hospitals padding and passing on what they call "unreimbursed" services costs!
Simple!

 

[dblack]

How much more efficient and cost effective would medicine be if people took more control and let the market work for them?

They cant the costs are hidden

Not really. Mostly, they're just ignored. People either have insurance coverage, and don't care what the costs are because they're not paying them. Or they can't hope to afford the overpriced services and don't care what the costs are because they're not paying them.

If this national 'bad habit' were remedied, and people had a direct financial stake in most of their health care decisions - the costs wouldn't be hidden at all. We'd all be regularly reminded when we paid our medical bills.

 

[auditor0007]

I find it ironic that while Michelle worries so much about school lunches, nothing is ever said about physical activity levels for our kids in school.

Yep. Nothing.


New Program Will Help Bring Physical Activity Back to Schools | Let's Move!

First Lady Michelle Obama was in Chicago today, to announce a new collaboration designed to bring physical activity back to American schools.

About time, but we need more than a new program. We need mandatory gym class five days per week for all students.

 

[auditor0007]

Most people realize that costs are going to be higher in a big city hospital versus a small hospital in rural Kansas. That is not the problem. The problem is that I can get an ultrasound of my liver, which I need every year, at the local hospital or an stand alone imaging center. If I go to the hospital, they will charge me around $2000. My insurance will discount that amount to around $1000, which I will pay, because it falls within my deductible. But if I go to the imaging center down the street, going through insurance, it will only cost me $400, for the same exact procedure. And if I pay cash? Then they only charge me $220.

The imaging center is not giving free care to illegals, does not have as much of a cost associated with real estate, etc.. There are reasons behind price differences.. even if you don't like it...

Not as much cost associated with real estate? Since when do the economies of scale not apply?

They never have in healthcare. That is why just trying to create more competition will not work.

 

[auditor0007]

We need healthcare like those lucky cuban communists get..........

Cuban and "american" comrades agree

I would be happy with a system like that in the UK. So would every American once they understood how it worked. The British system allows those who want to purchase private supplemental insurance, giving those individuals preferential treatment. For one, when they need to see a specialist, they move to the front of the line. That is actually fair since they are paying extra. For everyone else, it is their choice, but no matter what, everyone is covered. Nobody goes bankrupt from medical bills, and everyone gets good quality medical care. And the bottom line? The Brits only pay about 40% of what we pay per person.

Let me explain our current system in real dollars, so you have a better understanding of the true cost. We are currently paying over $9000 per year per person. That is $9000 per year for every single living person in the US, including all those illegals. This includes expenditures for everything including late term care and is paid both by private funds, insurance, and the government.

What you need to understand about the cost is that the cost for one person over a 78 year lifetime, which is the average, works out to $702,000 per person, or $1.4 million for a married couple. The average income in the US is around $40,000 per year. So lets run some numbers. If the average person earns $40,000 per year, and 15% goes to taxes, that leaves them with $34,000 per year. Over a 43 year career, they would earn a net of $1,462,000. Their lifetime medical expenses will be $702,000, or nearly half of their lifetime net earned income.

Can you see how we have a massive problem that is due to us paying too much for healthcare? If most fail to see the problem, then we are most certainly all doomed.

So then YOU agree with this:

• Physicians estimate the cost of defensive medicine in US at $650 to $850 billion per year. This is 26 to 34% of all US healthcare costs.
• Up to 92% of US physicians practice defensive medicine.
• 76% of physicians report that defensive medicine decreases patient access to healthcare.
• 53% of physicians report delaying new techniques, procedures, and treatments due to fear of lawsuits.
• Patients most affected by defensive medicine include those visiting emergency rooms and those requiring surgery.
• Women are most affected by defensive medicine.
• Emergency medicine, primary care, and OB/GYN physicians are most likely to practice defensive medicine.
• 79 to 83% of surgeons and OB/GYNs have been named in lawsuits.

Source:Health News Observer ? Physicians Estimate The Cost Of Defensive Medicine In Us At 650 To 850 Bill Articles

And you obviously agree under Obamacare with taxing tanning salons as the cause cancer right?
Then why is is so wrong to tax 10% of the $200 billion lawyers make that are a direct cause of the $850 billion a year in duplicate tests, specialist referrals the above doctors
say they do???
Then what would be so wrong with then registering the 4 million truly uninsured that need insurance and want it when they go to the hospital they are means tested and registered with the Uninsured Health Ins. Co.© that provides a $5,000 a year premium from the $20 billion in taxes on lawyers?
Hospitals then can't pad and pass as a few do (with markups of 6,000% !) to Medicare/insurance companies.
Thus in one solution we've reduced the $850 billion in defensive medicine AND reduced hospitals padding and passing on what they call "unreimbursed" services costs!
Simple!

Any type of tort reform would be more than welcome; however, that cannot include completely limiting a person's ability to sue when a doctor cuts off the wrong leg. Secondly, I don't buy into the $850 billion figure. I'm not going to deny that it most likely is very high, but pushing one third of all medical costs is a complete fallacy.

My wife had leukemia. She battled it for ten months before she died. They didn't have to do any extra tests on her. Her diagnosis and treatment was straight forward. The cost was over $1.3 million, and that was eleven years ago.

 

[Flopper]

One hospital charges $8,000 ? another, $38,000

For the first time, the federal government will release the prices that hospitals charge for the 100 most common inpatient procedures. Until now, these charges have been closely held by facilities that see a competitive advantage in shielding their fees from competitors. What the numbers reveal is a health-care system with tremendous, seemingly random variation in the costs of services.

In the District, George Washington University’s average bill for a patient on a ventilator was $115,000, while Providence Hospital’s average charge for the same service was just under $53,000. For a lower joint replacement, George Washington University charged almost $69,000 compared with Sibley Memorial Hospital’s average of just under $30,000.

Virginia’s highest average rate for a lower limb replacement was at CJW Medical Center in Richmond, more than $117,000, compared with Winchester Medical Center charging $25,600 per procedure. CJW charged more than $38,000 for esophagitis and gastrointestinal conditions, while Carilion Tazewell Community Hospital averaged $8,100 in those cases.

Maryland has a unique system for hospital rate charges, so differences were smaller, and its average rate was lower than that of any other state in the most common procedures reviewed by The Washington Post. The highest average charge for a lower joint replacement was $36,000 by University of Maryland Medical Center in Baltimore, much lower than the highest rates in other states.

The Free Market system for Healthcare is all screwed up. Since they never tell how much a procedure is or will be and most don't shop around because when you're sick you don't exactly have the time to do so..that creates this situation

Experts attribute the disparities to a health system that can set prices with impunity because consumers rarely see them — and rarely shop for discounts. Although the government has collected this information for years, it was housed in a bulky database that researchers had to pay to access.

The hospital charges being released Wednesday — all from 2011 — show the hospitals’ average list prices. Adding another layer of opacity, Medicare and private insurance companies typically negotiate lower charges with hospitals. But the data shed light on fees that the uninsured could pay.

Clip*

“It’s true that Medicare and a lot of private insurers never pay the full charge,” said Renee Hsia, an assistant professor at the University of California at San Francisco Medical School whose research focuses on price variation. “But you have a lot of private insurance companies where the consumer pays a portion of the charge. For uninsured patients, they face the full bill. In that sense, the price matters.”

What free market system of health care?

 

[jgarden]

List of U.S. states by life expectancy

This article presents a list of United States states sorted by their life expectancy at birth. The data was taken from the American Human Development Project's second national report, Measure of America 2010-2011.

Rank State Life Expectancy (in years)
***********************************
1. Hawaii 81.5 years

2. Minnesota 80.9 years

3. California 80.4 years

4. New York 80.4 years

5. Connecticut 80.2 years

6. Massachusetts 80.1 years

7. North Dakota 80.1 years

8. Utah 80.1 years

9. Colorado 79.9 years

10. Arizona 79.9 years

11. South Dakota 79.9 years

12. New Hampshire 79.7 years

13. Vermont 79.7 years

14. Florida 79.7 years

15. Iowa 79.7 years

16. New Jersey 79.7 years

17. Washington 79.7 years

18. Wisconsin 79.3 years

19. Rhode Island 79.3 years

20. Idaho 79.2 years

21. Nebraska 79.2 years

22. Oregon 79.0 years

23. Illinois 78.8 years

24. Maine 78.7 years

25. Virginia 78.5 years

26. Kansas 78.4 years

27. Montana 78.4 years

28. Delaware 78.3 years

29. Alaska 78.3 years

30. Texas 78.3 years

31. New Mexico 78.2 years

32. Pennsylvania 78.2 years

33. Maryland 78.1 years

34. Michigan 77.9 years

35. Indiana 77.7 years

36. Wyoming 77.6 years

37. Nevada 77.6 years

38. Ohio 77.5 years

39. Missouri 77.4 years

40. North Carolina 77.2 years

41. Georgia 77.1 years

42. South Carolina 76.6 years

43. Tennessee 76.2 years

44. Kentucky 76.2 years

45. Arkansas 76.1 years

46. Oklahoma 75.6 years

47. Louisiana 75.4 years

48. Alabama 75.2 years

49. West Virginia 75.2 years

50. Mississippi 74.8 years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_life_expectancy

According to the CIA Wprld Fact Book (a brancj of the US government) "Life expectancy at birth is also a measure of overall quality of life in a country and summarizes the mortality at all ages. It can also be thought of as indicating the potential return on investment in human capital ....."

How ironic that the 10 states with the lowest life expectancies and would benefit the most from having increased access to healthcare in America are also states that traditionally vote Republican and are opposed to Obamacare!

 

[dblack]

How ironic that the 10 states with the lowest life expectancies and would benefit the most from having increased access to healthcare in America are also states that traditionally vote Republican and are opposed to Obamacare!

The irony, or perhaps just the sad reality, is that some people can't conceive of voting on principle. Is it really that much of a stretch to imagine that people could be against a policy, even if the policy might nominally benefit them more than others, because they think it's wrong? Or, in your world view, are people only motivated by what helps them, even if it harms the rest of us?