One American Muslim’s reflection on the 4th of July celebration

[Derideo_Te]

1) The facts are that the Islamic country of Morocco was the first state to recognize the independence of the United States of America.

2) And that American muslims overwhelmingly are happy to be U.S. citizens and many celebrate the 4th of July with their fellow country men.

Thus I find it difficult to believe that people want to turn these into a negative in order to bolster their personal agenda.

Sorry, Sunni man, the recent history includes a group of Muslims that attacked this country on 9/11/2001. They killed thousands of innocent people, and that is a hard thing for us to forget or forgive.
After all, you don't see us forgiving the English for their dastardly deeds of the late 1700's, do you? Oh wait, we're allies with them now. Never mind.
Well shit, we didn't forgive the Germans for world war two, fucking Nazi's. Or the Japanese. Oh wait, we're allies with both them also. Never mind.
It's not like the US has ever attacked a Muslim nation, so why did they attack us. Oh wait, maybe we did screw with some Muslim nations at some time. Never mind.
Anyways, you get my point, right?

I see, when did this forgiveness take place for these "enemies"? Further as I pointed out the US was attacked first since you wish to bring history into the discussion, as well.

The latest attack by an American Mulsim was the Boston Marathon on April 15, 2013. Point is one article by an American Muslim which is shines a positive light on the situation does not whitewash the entire picture.

Enough "Milquetoast" logic alan1... Forgiveness and forgetting takes time and is prompted by proactive positive actions.

Isn't that exactly what Sunniman is doing in the OP?

Proactively reaching out with the hand of friendship and brotherhood?

Why spurn any attempt to build the bridge to a united future?

 

[Sunni Man]

Nope, that is how you wish to interpret my statements. I point to facts for which I have supplied sources, the well intentioned musings can come after we all deal with a terrible situation domestic terrorism by an American Muslim. Since you have chosen the OP I am dealing with American Muslims, do not try to make me about to be the bad guy when you are poorly prepared to deal with the issue.

The thread was a positive take on patriotic American Muslims who are happy to live in the U.S. and celebrate the 4th of July with their fellow citizen.

But you seem bound and determined to put a negative spin on the OP and the topic of the thread.

quite sad..........

 

[RetiredGySgt]

And yet Sunni man calls Hamas and Hezbollah, freedom fighters. In fact he calls most terror organizations that are Muslim freedom fighters. Go figure.

 

[hobelim]

Isn't that exactly what Sunniman is doing in the OP?

Proactively reaching out with the hand of friendship and brotherhood?

Why spurn any attempt to build the bridge to a united future?

Some people who reach out one hand in friendship under the guise of shared values or patriotism have another one hidden behind their back ready to cut off your head.

Some people begin their op with an irrational argument made specious under the guise of an appeal to unity or friendship that requires you to set aside your rational mind and swallow a whole lot of bullshit to agree with.

You already know this.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Isn't that exactly what Sunniman is doing in the OP?

Proactively reaching out with the hand of friendship and brotherhood?

Why spurn any attempt to build the bridge to a united future?

Some people who reach out one hand in friendship under the guise of shared values or patriotism have another one hidden behind their back ready to cut off your head.

Some people begin their op with an irrational argument made specious under the guise of an appeal to unity or friendship that requires you to set aside your rational mind and swallow a whole lot of bullshit to agree with.

You already know this.

There is nothing that I have seen posted by Sunniman that lends credence to what you have alleged. Quite the opposite in fact. He has been roundly vilified simply because of his religious beliefs. Would you disparage and distrust all Christians for the heinous acts of Time McVeigh and Eric Rudolph? Every individual deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. That is one of the basic rights that this nation was founded upon. Sunniman put his own life on the line for this nation. To treat him this way is disrespectful not only to him but to all Muslims who proudly serve in the armed forces.

 

[Katzndogz]

One theme I continually hear is, "Why don't the moderate muslims raise their voices and speak out".

So I start a thread about patriotic American muslims celebrating the 4th of July and talking about loving America and it's freedoms.


Yet the first post out of the gate starts by talking about a minor historical event that happened over 200 years ago. And ends with the words, "nothing much has changed since".


So it's no wonder most moderate muslims see it as futile to raise their hand and be counted.

Because their words will only be drowned out by the overwhelming sea of detractors and haters.

I spent the 4th with muslim friends. None of whom were American, all British. We went to the Coptic church on Robertson to celebrate 2 Fourth of Julys! Ours and the first one of Egypts. I was ASTOUNDED at the level of (I'll choose this word) rejection that Coptic Egyptians feel for obama. I was truly among the most kindred of spirits.

Unfortunately, we didn't see any fireworks because they have a baby less than a month old.

 

[hobelim]

Isn't that exactly what Sunniman is doing in the OP?

Proactively reaching out with the hand of friendship and brotherhood?

Why spurn any attempt to build the bridge to a united future?

Some people who reach out one hand in friendship under the guise of shared values or patriotism have another one hidden behind their back ready to cut off your head.

Some people begin their op with an irrational argument made specious under the guise of an appeal to unity or friendship that requires you to set aside your rational mind and swallow a whole lot of bullshit to agree with.

You already know this.

There is nothing that I have seen posted by Sunniman that lends credence to what you have alleged. Quite the opposite in fact. He has been roundly vilified simply because of his religious beliefs. Would you disparage and distrust all Christians for the heinous acts of Time McVeigh and Eric Rudolph? Every individual deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. That is one of the basic rights that this nation was founded upon. Sunniman put his own life on the line for this nation. To treat him this way is disrespectful not only to him but to all Muslims who proudly serve in the armed forces.

I do not distrust all Christians because of any one stupid or heinous thing done by one or some Christians, I would distrust them based on their religious pretense and the hypocrisy of their professed fundamental beliefs knowing the laity who attempt to distant themselves from the most extreme of their religion are the most pretentious and perverse among them..

Same for sunni or The Word.

How old do you think a person should be before they show the minimum amount of love for truth required to qualify for respect or their benefit of the doubt expires?

And I certainly wouldn't ignore the part religious ideologies play as the inspiration for those who do go completely insane and commit heinous acts in the name of their religion, much less align myself, support or be an apologist for any religion which is undeniably at the root of such evil in the world.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Isn't that exactly what Sunniman is doing in the OP?

Proactively reaching out with the hand of friendship and brotherhood?

Why spurn any attempt to build the bridge to a united future?

Some people who reach out one hand in friendship under the guise of shared values or patriotism have another one hidden behind their back ready to cut off your head.

Some people begin their op with an irrational argument made specious under the guise of an appeal to unity or friendship that requires you to set aside your rational mind and swallow a whole lot of bullshit to agree with.

You already know this.

There is nothing that I have seen posted by Sunniman that lends credence to what you have alleged. Quite the opposite in fact. He has been roundly vilified simply because of his religious beliefs. Would you disparage and distrust all Christians for the heinous acts of Time McVeigh and Eric Rudolph? Every individual deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. That is one of the basic rights that this nation was founded upon. Sunniman put his own life on the line for this nation. To treat him this way is disrespectful not only to him but to all Muslims who proudly serve in the armed forces.

So you dismiss his calling for Sharia law in the US, his support of known terror organizations ?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Sunni man had a whole thread on redesigning the US Flag to be Muslim. He advocates a redesigned flag sharia law and Muslim control of this Country. He openly supports known terror organizations. And you think he is a great guy.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Some people who reach out one hand in friendship under the guise of shared values or patriotism have another one hidden behind their back ready to cut off your head.

Some people begin their op with an irrational argument made specious under the guise of an appeal to unity or friendship that requires you to set aside your rational mind and swallow a whole lot of bullshit to agree with.

You already know this.

There is nothing that I have seen posted by Sunniman that lends credence to what you have alleged. Quite the opposite in fact. He has been roundly vilified simply because of his religious beliefs. Would you disparage and distrust all Christians for the heinous acts of Time McVeigh and Eric Rudolph? Every individual deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. That is one of the basic rights that this nation was founded upon. Sunniman put his own life on the line for this nation. To treat him this way is disrespectful not only to him but to all Muslims who proudly serve in the armed forces.

I do not distrust all Christians because of any one stupid or heinous thing done by one or some Christians, I would distrust them based on their religious pretense and the hypocrisy of their professed fundamental beliefs knowing the laity who attempt to distant themselves from the most extreme of their religion are the most pretentious and perverse among them..

Same for sunni or The Word.

How old do you think a person should be before they show the minimum amount of love for truth required to qualify for respect or their benefit of the doubt expires?

There is no difference between the fundamentalist extremists of all religions. So it is wrong to judge any individual based upon nothing more than their religious affiliation.

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty irrespective of age. If I recall correctly it was Old Fart who said that you should run whenever you hear anyone proclaiming to "love the Truth" (capital T). There is "truth" (small T) in all of the holy texts. There are also fairy tales and contradictions.

To date Sunniman has never posted anything that gives me reason to distrust his sincerity and veracity. Like everyone else he will enjoy the benefit of the doubt as far as I am concerned.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Sunni man had a whole thread on redesigning the US Flag to be Muslim. He advocates a redesigned flag sharia law and Muslim control of this Country. He openly supports known terror organizations. And you think he is a great guy.

What I have observed is that you have a habit of misconstruing what Sunniman actually posts. Not sure if that is because of the way he posts or the way you are reading them. Either way it doesn't matter since nothing is going to change your opinion of him. For the record I respect your service to this nation too.

 

[hobelim]

There is nothing that I have seen posted by Sunniman that lends credence to what you have alleged. Quite the opposite in fact. He has been roundly vilified simply because of his religious beliefs. Would you disparage and distrust all Christians for the heinous acts of Time McVeigh and Eric Rudolph? Every individual deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. That is one of the basic rights that this nation was founded upon. Sunniman put his own life on the line for this nation. To treat him this way is disrespectful not only to him but to all Muslims who proudly serve in the armed forces.

I do not distrust all Christians because of any one stupid or heinous thing done by one or some Christians, I would distrust them based on their religious pretense and the hypocrisy of their professed fundamental beliefs knowing the laity who attempt to distant themselves from the most extreme of their religion are the most pretentious and perverse among them..

Same for sunni or The Word.

How old do you think a person should be before they show the minimum amount of love for truth required to qualify for respect or their benefit of the doubt expires?

There is no difference between the fundamentalist extremists of all religions. So it is wrong to judge any individual based upon nothing more than their religious affiliation.

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty irrespective of age. If I recall correctly it was Old Fart who said that you should run whenever you hear anyone proclaiming to "love the Truth" (capital T). There is "truth" (small T) in all of the holy texts. There are also fairy tales and contradictions.

To date Sunniman has never posted anything that gives me reason to distrust his sincerity and veracity. Like everyone else he will enjoy the benefit of the doubt as far as I am concerned.

There are many sincere Christians out there too. So what. Do you think sincerity washes away the guilt of being a part of a religious/political system that is undeniably irrational, perverse, barbaric, and directly responsible for much suffering and evil in the world past and present?

Are nice Christians not culpable for perpetuating the insanity that inspires the evil done by extremists?


Maybe you can explain to me, so I can understand, how it is you are so certain that The Word does not deserve the benefit of the doubt and is the living embodiment of the biblical serpent and Sunni man is not?

 

[Derideo_Te]

I do not distrust all Christians because of any one stupid or heinous thing done by one or some Christians, I would distrust them based on their religious pretense and the hypocrisy of their professed fundamental beliefs knowing the laity who attempt to distant themselves from the most extreme of their religion are the most pretentious and perverse among them..

Same for sunni or The Word.

How old do you think a person should be before they show the minimum amount of love for truth required to qualify for respect or their benefit of the doubt expires?

There is no difference between the fundamentalist extremists of all religions. So it is wrong to judge any individual based upon nothing more than their religious affiliation.

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty irrespective of age. If I recall correctly it was Old Fart who said that you should run whenever you hear anyone proclaiming to "love the Truth" (capital T). There is "truth" (small T) in all of the holy texts. There are also fairy tales and contradictions.

To date Sunniman has never posted anything that gives me reason to distrust his sincerity and veracity. Like everyone else he will enjoy the benefit of the doubt as far as I am concerned.

There are many sincere Christians out there too. So what. Do you think sincerity washes away the guilt of being a part of a religious/political system that is undeniably irrational, perverse, barbaric, and directly responsible for much suffering and evil in the world past and present?

Are nice Christians not culpable for perpetuating the insanity that inspires the evil done by extremists?


Maybe you can explain to me, so I can understand, how it is you are so certain that The Word does not deserve the benefit of the doubt and is the living embodiment of the biblical serpent and Sunni man is not?

The sins of the fathers? The difference between Sunniman and TW can be seen in what they post. One is a raving loon and the other is a sane normal human being. BTW you are the one who calls TW the " living embodiment of the biblical serpent". As far as I am concerned he is just another fundamentalist believer.

Getting back to your point about the long standing guilt inherent in all religions for past atrocities. Do you condemn all Mormons as racists because the founders were racist? Are all Catholics anti-semitic because of the Spanish Inquisition? Are all Muslims rapists because of the Moors invasion of France?

 

[Sallow]

^^^^^
Nice prose, but not all was a smooth as the OP seems to portray.

Indeed, in 1785, Ambassador to Tripoli Sidi Haji Abdrahaman wrote the following to Thomas Jefferson: "It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once." (see "American Peace Commissioners to John Jay," March 28, 1786, "Thomas Jefferson Papers," Series 1. General Correspondence. 1651–1827, Library of Congress. LoC: March 28, 1786 http://memory.loc.gov/master/mss/mtj/mtj1/005/0400/0430.jpg)

While the above speaks to the First Barbary war, nothing much has changed since.

You're kidding right?

It's amazing that you bring up the Barbary war which, wasn't much of a war at all. It was basically resolved when Jefferson decided enough was enough and purchased battleships to fight off pirates despite the objections of Conservatives.

Since then, Americans have decided, since the discovery of oil in the region, that the Middle East's natural resources belong to America. And has participated in soft imperialism.

No, I am not kidding and the spirit which brought forth that war is very much alive. What I find amazing is that you deny reality...

That's something else.

Skip over the soft imperialism thing, did ya?

 

[Sallow]

And yet Sunni man calls Hamas and Hezbollah, freedom fighters. In fact he calls most terror organizations that are Muslim freedom fighters. Go figure.

Reagan called the Contra "Freedom Fighters". Even though they sent death squads that raped, murdered, and tortured people. Including American nuns.

Go figure.

 

[hobelim]

Getting back to your point about the long standing guilt inherent in all religions for past atrocities.


Do you condemn all Mormons as racists because the founders were racist?

I suppose if there is racist teaching in Mormonism one would be supporting racism just by being a Mormon even if any given Mormon was not racist.

Are all Catholics anti-semitic because of the Spanish Inquisition?

I suppose all Catholics are guilty of perpetuating anti-Semitism, not because of the Inquisition but by supporting a church that teaches that Jews are under the condemnation of God for refusing to worship a cracker even if any given Catholic is not anti Semitic.

Are all Muslims rapists because of the Moors invasion of France?

All Muslims are guilty of perpetuating misogyny because they condone the behavior and teaching of a psychotic pedophile even if any given Muslim is not a misogynist.


What then?

Could you become any one of those 'believers' and respect yourself however "nice" any given one may be?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Sunni man had a whole thread on redesigning the US Flag to be Muslim. He advocates a redesigned flag sharia law and Muslim control of this Country. He openly supports known terror organizations. And you think he is a great guy.

What I have observed is that you have a habit of misconstruing what Sunniman actually posts. Not sure if that is because of the way he posts or the way you are reading them. Either way it doesn't matter since nothing is going to change your opinion of him. For the record I respect your service to this nation too.

So you deny he created a thread to redesign the US flag to a Muslim flag? You deny he advocates sharia law in the US? Really? Did I misconstrue those events?

How about the fact he supports Hezbollah and Hamas and calls terror organizations freedom fighters? I make that up too?

 

[Derideo_Te]

Getting back to your point about the long standing guilt inherent in all religions for past atrocities.


Do you condemn all Mormons as racists because the founders were racist?

I suppose if there is racist teaching in Mormonism one would be supporting racism just by being a Mormon even if any given Mormon was not racist.

Are all Catholics anti-semitic because of the Spanish Inquisition?

I suppose all Catholics are guilty of perpetuating anti-Semitism, not because of the Inquisition but by supporting a church that teaches that Jews are under the condemnation of God for refusing to worship a cracker even if any given Catholic is not anti Semitic.

Are all Muslims rapists because of the Moors invasion of France?

All Muslims are guilty of perpetuating misogyny because they condone the behavior and teaching of a psychotic pedophile even if any given Muslim is not a misogynist.


What then?

Could you become any one of those 'believers' and respect yourself however "nice" any given one may be?

This is not about me and my beliefs or lack thereof. This is about Sunniman's right not be unfairly judged because he belongs to a specific religion. In essence you are discriminating based upon creed. Anyone who claims to be an adherent to an absolute "Truth" would know better than to judge someone based upon a premise this facile.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Sunni man had a whole thread on redesigning the US Flag to be Muslim. He advocates a redesigned flag sharia law and Muslim control of this Country. He openly supports known terror organizations. And you think he is a great guy.

What I have observed is that you have a habit of misconstruing what Sunniman actually posts. Not sure if that is because of the way he posts or the way you are reading them. Either way it doesn't matter since nothing is going to change your opinion of him. For the record I respect your service to this nation too.

So you deny he created a thread to redesign the US flag to a Muslim flag? You deny he advocates sharia law in the US? Really? Did I misconstrue those events?

How about the fact he supports Hezbollah and Hamas and calls terror organizations freedom fighters? I make that up too?

I am going by both the posts or yours and Sunniman that I have seen to date. In those posts I have seen you misconstrue what he actually posted. The pattern was repeated so it wasn't just an isolated instance.

Furthermore I have observed Sunniman's interactions with other posters too. His demeanor remains consistent even in spite of the taunts and in some cases blatant insults. There have been posts demanding that he renounce his faith and condemn it's founder. How would you react if someone demanded the same of you?

You swore an oath to uphold the Constitution and part of that oath is to support Sunniman's right to his religious beliefs. So irrespective of whether or not you agree with them you took an oath to defend them. Do you still stand by that oath?

 

[hobelim]

All Muslims are guilty of perpetuating misogyny because they condone the behavior and teaching of a psychotic pedophile even if any given Muslim is not a misogynist.


What then?

Could you become any one of those 'believers' and respect yourself however "nice" any given one may be?

This is not about me and my beliefs or lack thereof. This is about Sunniman's right not be unfairly judged because he belongs to a specific religion. In essence you are discriminating based upon creed. Anyone who claims to be an adherent to an absolute "Truth" would know better than to judge someone based upon a premise this facile.

Of course what you believe or don't believe is relevant since you are asking me to show unwarranted respect for someone who maintains beliefs that I know you could not respect in yourself.

And what is unfair about being held accountable for perpetuating the evil done in the name of whatever religion by supporting it?

Was Mohammed not a psychotic pedophile? Are those who submit to a religion who holds someone like that in the highest esteem not guilty of perpetuating whatever evil results, even if they distance themselves and leave the very nasty stuff demanded by their religion to those more barbaric?


Unfairly judged my ass.