Open Borders

[Againsheila]

Better then the CEO? Even though the average CEO makes 6 figures.

I guess the company didn't get what they paid for.

7 figures, and you're right, I get your point. However, when it comes to the avereage worker, I still think that you get what you pay for. Let's face it, in the 60's the average CEO made 50 times what the average worker made and he was usually someone who'd worked his way up in the company. His focus was on what was best for the company. Most of them spent their lives working with the company. Today the average CEO is hired from outside the company, never worked a real job in his life and his goal is to get as much out of the company as fast as they can and get out before the whole thing falls apart. They make 500 to 1000 times more than the average worker. No wonder our economy faces a depression the likes of which we've never seen before.

We need to go back to pre-1970 corporation laws.

 

[catzmeow]

yep,, yess sirrreee the most recent one caught was the son of a Democratic congressman from Florida. Allen Boyd was the name..

Allen Boyd is my rep, and I plan to keep voting for him, because he does a good job for North Florida.

 

[catzmeow]

Brief History of Farm Labor in the United States

You consider this proof? There may have been black labor used in some sections of the U.S. during some periods of time, but the vast majority of time in our history, small farmers were the backbone of our farming industry. And, they did their own field work.

Again. Try providing actual proof.

 

[Againsheila]

They actually do that. Not legally, of course, because we have pretty strict immigration quotas. We've had some scandals recently about immigrants being smuggled in (packed like sardines in trucks) and basically treated as slaves while they work in the cane fields and on the vegetable farms.

Because those illegals are TAKING jobs Americans could do. The companies are going behind the backs of the government and recruiting them illegally because it's cheaper for them. They are taking our jobs and reducing our wages. We can't afford to have them here. The government should be deporting all illegals and jailing those who hire them.

 

[Ravi]

KVOA News 4, Tucson, Arizona - Congressman's son caught smuggling immigrants




"this is a family matter, and I will be dealing with it privately."

Thanks for proving my point Willow. This problem is pretty common...people smuggle in people for all kinds of reasons and exploit them.

In this particular case, I heard the smuggler was a big fan of Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly, liked to call people names to dehumanize them...I guess it made it easier for him to be involved in the slave trade. Some things never change.

 

[Ravi]

You consider this proof? There may have been black labor used in some sections of the U.S. during some periods of time, but the vast majority of time in our history, small farmers were the backbone of our farming industry. And, they did their own field work.

Again. Try providing actual proof.

Okay, Kitty, if you want to pretend that all those groups of people weren't really farmworkers or they were actually anglosaxons I bow to your vast knowledge of revisionist history. Even the German immigrants to the midwest never actually assimilated, did they?

 

[dilloduck]

Okay, Kitty, if you want to pretend that all those groups of people weren't really farmworkers or they were actually anglosaxons I bow to your vast knowledge of revisionist history. Even the German immigrants to the midwest never actually assimilated, did they?

no--all the German immigrants still speak only german. Same with the Swedes the Danes, the Norwegians, the Poles. It's impossbile to travel there because you can't understand any of them .

 

[catzmeow]

Okay, Kitty, if you want to pretend that all those groups of people weren't really farmworkers or they were actually anglosaxons I bow to your vast knowledge of revisionist history. Even the German immigrants to the midwest never actually assimilated, did they?

Ravi, when you've provided actual evidence to support your point, then you can act smarmy and superior. Until then, it's just a sad and pathetic attempt at avoiding proving the points you think you've made. I recognize it as such.

 

[sky dancer]

Ravi, when you've provided actual evidence to support your point, then you can act smarmy and superior. Until then, it's just a sad and pathetic attempt at avoiding proving the points you think you've made. I recognize it as such.

Practice what you preach.

 

[catzmeow]

Practice what you preach.

Always, sugar bear. I don't make claims I can't (and don't) substantiate. That's YOUR territory.

 

[sky dancer]

Always, sugar bear. I don't make claims I can't (and don't) substantiate. That's YOUR territory.

You have no business judging anyone.

 

[catzmeow]

You have no business judging anyone.

Awww, you're so cute when you try to be all holier than thou.

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

Hello, Sky dancer. Good thread. It's kind of what I expect from you. A global communal consciousness. A world free from constrictions. Nor borders, no fences. We are ALL brothers and sisters. How unfortunate, the people you are idealizing don't share all those ideology. But one day, I think you will find that out the hard way. Like Neville Chamberlain did about the policy of appeasement. I don't accept your paradigms because they seem a little naive about human nature. I think this is about global economics and profits. And overpopulation taps into that. It isn't about culture, borders, diversity or the milk of human kindness. And you buy that load of crap?

 

[sky dancer]

Hello, Sky dancer. Good thread. It's kind of what I expect from you. A global communal consciousness. A world free from constrictions. Nor borders, no fences. We are ALL brothers and sisters. How unfortunate, the people you are idealizing don't share all those ideology. But one day, I think you will find that out the hard way. Like Neville Chamberlain did about the policy of appeasement. I don't accept your paradigms because they seem a little naive about human nature. I think this is about global economics and profits. And overpopulation taps into that. It isn't about culture, borders, diversity or the milk of human kindness. And you buy that load of crap?

Hi ho Silver--

You may be right about human nature. What I'm looking at is the future. We are becoming a global community. It's likely that country boundaries in the future may more resemble the semi-permeable membranes of cells.

Open borders is way ahead of its time. Nonetheless, those who write about this idea have a vision of a possible world that human beings may one day decide to collectively create.

We are in a global economic reality. We seem quite happy to have goods and services cross country boundaries. Having human beings able to freely move for work is the next step.

 

[frazzledgear]

I thought this idea deserves it's own thread. Here is a clip from an essay to start the topic going:

Studies show that most Mexican migrants have similar aspirations. If they could come and go freely, most would move only temporarily. But perversely, U.S. border controls end up making many stay for good, because crossing the border is so risky and costly that once a person has got across he tends to stay. A Mexican who overstays his visa knows that if he returns home, he will never be able to reenter the United States legally.


Open Borders Work, Part 2

No nation on earth can expect to be able to absorb millions and millions of UNSKILLED workers into their country every year without experiencing very real consequences. Research has shown that just an increase of 10% of unskilled immigrants into a local job market -increases unemployment among the unskilled US workers in that area by 2%. And because it results in a downward pressure on wages for unskilled labor overall, it increases the inequality of wages between skilled and unskilled US workers. The very segment of our own population that suffers the highest unemployment rates even during the best economic times -gets hit the hardest during tough economic times. Now that there is every reason to believe we are entering a significant recession, this is the segment of our OWN population that is going to feel the most pain.

Part of our problem is that we have very, very generous benefits to immigrants once they do enter this country that work as incentives to remain indefinitely -whether they entered legally or not -not the least of which are public education and medical care. Both of which are posing an increasingly unmanageable financial burden in areas with high populations of illegals. The fiscal burden on state and local governments is very real and for those with the largest populations of illegals, getting only more difficult to absorb every year. With a recession, unemployment rates will continue to rise -with state and local government revenues less as a result -and even less able to absorb those fiscal burdens posed by large populations of unskilled illegals. The huge influx of illegals from Mexico -who are unskilled workers -has meant we had to cut back on the numbers who wanted to enter legally from all other nations, allowing only highly skilled workers. No exceptions. So the poorest in other countries -with stories no less heartwrenching - don't have a chance at all of legally entering this country and are paying the penalty because they are already so over-represented by illegals. Illegals now account for roughly half of all immigration to this country and their lack of skills disproportionately over-represented among all immigrants, legal or not.

My biggest concern is that I have a real problem with the idea of rewarding Mexico for the problems their own government has created for these people with a change of US policy that would allow any and all unskilled Mexicans to freely enter into this country without limitations on numbers - and get a job. Especially since this is a problem created and fostered by the corrupt Mexican government.

Illegal Mexicans are nearly entirely of native Indian heritage -and victims of the vicious, bigoted, prejudicial policies of Mexican government that is controlled and ruled by Spanish-heritage Mexicans -with their official and unofficial policies that insure the best jobs in all industries and most politically influential jobs will only be filled by Spanish heritage Mexicans. (There is a reason the Mexican President -regardless of his name -never looks like the Mexicans who enter this country. He is always of Spanish descent, not native Indian.) The corrupt Mexican government actively insures this segment is the poorest and most desperate, then actively encourages this same segment of their own population to get out of the country - and then does it all it can to aid them in entering our country illegally. Their oppressive policies are intended to harm this segment of their own population and insure they have the most difficult time finding any employment in their own country. And then encourages them to just get out. They don't want those citizens to EVER return, they are considered "undesirable" people -but very much want to see them continue to send a chunk of their earnings back to their country since that money represents a huge chunk of their economy. Local Mexican governments routinely bilk these people on their way into our country, play a significant role in human trafficking with officials intent on nothing more than getting their share by exploiting their most desperate and poorest citizens -after already enforcing the policies that insured they would be desperate and poor in the first place.

Why should our economy try to absorb the financial burden of a situation that has actually been created and fostered by the corrupt government in Mexico -relieving it of any pressure to reform? With an open door policy whereby the US assumes responsibility for their poorest and most unskilled citizens they created in the first place -we only encourage the Mexican government to continue with its racial oppression of a segment of their own population, rewarding them for driving out their own citizens while continuing to benefit by their work in THIS country -all so they can continue to hold the reins of power and operate government with policies intended to benefit the Spanish-heritage Mexicans the most.

I don't blame desperate and poor people from trying to improve their circumstances by searching for work in a more promising country. In their shoes, I would probably do the same thing. But I have a real problem with these one-sided conversations that totally ignore the fact that the corrupt Mexican government created this problem in the first place with policies of oppression born of racial hatred. Editorials and political speeches that totally ignore this while expounding about how the best solution is to cooperate more fully with the corrupt Mexican government in its oppression of their own citizens and their policies intended to insure that Mexico is ruled for and by those of Spanish-heritage only -by making it even easier for the Mexican government to rid the country of people it deems "undesirable", will only relieve what little pressure has been applied to this government to reform. And that little pressure hasn't accomplished much anyway.

These kind of one-sided discussions that totally ignore the root cause of this problem in the first place presents a true win-win situation for the Mexican government. They rid the country of "undesirables", are encouraged to step it up even more - while gladly allowing the money they send back to support their economy. And absolutely no one making a peep about their vicious, bigoted policies! But this population is truly being actively dispossessed and disowned by their government and literally driven out of their country -while the ignorant in this country appear to be applauding it by insisting we must reward Mexico for it by opening our doors even wider.

 

[frazzledgear]

Hello, Sky dancer. Good thread. It's kind of what I expect from you. A global communal consciousness. A world free from constrictions. Nor borders, no fences. We are ALL brothers and sisters. How unfortunate, the people you are idealizing don't share all those ideology. But one day, I think you will find that out the hard way. Like Neville Chamberlain did about the policy of appeasement. I don't accept your paradigms because they seem a little naive about human nature. I think this is about global economics and profits. And overpopulation taps into that. It isn't about culture, borders, diversity or the milk of human kindness. And you buy that load of crap?

A world free of borders, huh? Good luck getting the other 194 nations of the world to go along with that one. Because all the other 194 countries claim their sovereign and inherent right to know who is entering their country and for what purposes -because their greatest obligation is to protect their own citizens. Not the billions who aren't. Not so oddly enough, the only nation on earth that people insist have no right to know that -is the US. And of course while claiming their own right in this regard -scores of those other 194 nations would all LOVE it if the US were prevented from knowing who was coming into their country and for what purposes.

 

[sky dancer]

The European Union laready does this among its members. The US could do the same with Canada and Mexico.

It may start out as a continental solution--and eventually become worldwide. It's the wave of the future.

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

Skydancer, I read the UK boards on immigration with much sympathy. A lot of anger & sadness there. Poles, Muslims, the dilution of culture. Borders may be arbitrary things. Cultural Identity may be a construct of random events we are born into. Maybe not. In the meantime, all got I get is a migraine. I see all these "Immigrants" that NEED cling to a culture, customs , language and land they left behind. Call that diversity or hypocrisy, I don't know. They seem to feel it's all quite real and worth preserving. These people want dignity and respect. They don't feel obligated to return it. And you, dear, seemingly want to re-define the issue to fit THEIR agenda. Sorry, that is how it seems to me. "WE" want our culture preserved and respected, these immigrants want something else altogether. Diversity , I think not. This debate is a vicious cycle and it won't ever end . Maybe this is trite, but respect is a two way street . Yes?

 

[sky dancer]

Silver--

Open borders is the direction the world is going. What's the alternative? More wars?

The part of your post that I find difficult to respond to is your assertion that immigrants expect to be respected without being respectful in kind. Generalities are always challenging. Some immigrants are respectful and others are not. Just as some American citizens are respectful of other people's cultures as they move into our country and others are not.

Respect is a two way street.

 

[sky dancer]

"What is a border?

First off, it’s War. Literally, the border is a relic of the Mexican-American war of 1848, when America “bought” half of Mexico’s territory (about 500,000 sq. miles) at gunpoint. The Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo still stands, marking the Rio Grande as the ‘line’ which ‘separates’ us from them. The border is a monument without a museum, doused with techno-media and military machines in order to revive its symbolism with a vengeance. Yet the war never really ended, only moving underground, in shadows, in stealth. Bodies still pile up at the edges, and governments still negotiate new treaties (trade agreements) all the time.

Through such agreements, the border becomes a form of Property. It is enclosure, forming the body proper of the country, its outline, its image in the sand. Once this illusion becomes solidified in the minds of the citizens, its defense becomes unquestionable. Who wouldn’t want to defend their property? The border becomes the consensual hallucination of an imagined community of ‘citizens’ who share nothing but a relationship to what’s “outside.” We’re not them, they say, those are ‘aliens’. If to be an alien means to embody the subversion of their entire system of property, then by all means indict us! Property does not make the border possible, but on the contrary, the border makes all property possible. And with that, Capital as well.

Property, we know, is theft. And theft, capture, and control are the main functions of any State. Besides cops, prisons, and government buildings, the border is the closest thing you’ll get to the material manifestation of the state in all its naked force. The collusion between capitalists, militarists, racist libertarians and ‘pluralist’ democrats to “contain the state of emergency”, i.e., the loss of their profit, is blatant at every border site. Every “border zone” is chaos, and so the state tries to covers it up with a thousand bureaucracies, rules, and technologies. Invoke the border and you are on standing on their ground, so be ready to fight dirty. But that ground can be broken, like tree roots smashing upwards through concrete. The state tries to organize the chaos from above, but we all know how that goes: more resistance from below.--MORE AT LINK....
publish.nyc.indymedia.org | For A World Without Borders! An Article from The New York Rat Issue #8