Opposition to Gay Marriage - Any Basis Other Than Intolerance and Bigotry?

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Homosexuality has existed in the human animal since the beginning of recorded history. Homosexuality exists in hundreds of animal species...some of whom even mate for life with same sex partners and yet it is somehow inconceivable to you that there is a natural basis for it? There are animal species that can change their gender, but in your narrow mind, gays and lesbians have a mental disorder?

Seriously people, pick up a fucking book every once in a while...

So you want to equate gays to wild animals with uncontrollable sexual urges?

Do you attempt to discuss things anywhere beyond a base 5th grade level?

What's 5th grade about stating the obvious? It's not natural or normal behavior and to point to animals that do it us absurd. My damn dog tried to mate with the next door neighbors cat. Does that then justify beastiality because it happened in nature?

 

[kaz]

Compare the current fight for marriage equality to the fight for interracial marriage and the parallels are stunning. There's even a test you can take...

Marriage Quiz

My ass is white and my wife is Korean. I've got a government marriage because that was the only way I was getting her past her parents out of her house, but the fact that government recognizes our marriage doesn't give it any meaning to me, our relationship gives it meaning. We've been married 22 years and it's not changing, but that has nothing to do with government.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I have no problem with that. But I don't see why you need a government piece of paper to validate it

The main reason is to obtain the same financial benefits that apply to man-woman marriages. I've seen situations where a partner in a gay relationship of 25 years dies and the other partner is left with nothing. That's not right.

It's also not necessary. They could have had a will which is a far easier solution then marriage. BTW, if a married person dies without a will then it's also more expensive and complicated depending on where they live as well. Using marriage as a will is like hammering in brads with a sledge hammer.

A will cannot change tax code and the tax free transfer of property to a surviving spouse. It also cannot change Estate Tax Law that allows a surviving spouse to claim the married tax exemption ($500,000 for a couple) on the sale of a principle home after the death of a spouse even though that individual is actually "single" after the date of death.



>>>>

 

[bodecea]

You seem to be misinformed. Studies of children raised in single parent homes show that those children have more problems that children raised with two loving parents. The gender of those parents IS irrelevant

Now see, you can't stick with facts. The fact is that men and women have different personalities. My children would not have been nearly as adjusted with two of me or with two of my wife, they need both personalities not just two adults. Your best argument is the freedom to live your own life, I support that. But lame arguments like that just kill your credibility.

I have studies to back up my points...do you?

Study: Same-Sex Parents Raise Well-Adjusted Kids

I'll happily stack my kids up against any of ya'lls any old day.

As would I.

 

[Seawytch]

I wasn't aware that homosexuals were able to procreate?
By the way, have you ever wondered about the homosexual gene on an evolutionary scale?
It turns into an evolutionary dead end.
So, whatever science you claim to reinforce that you are "born with it", died millions of years ago.
Homosexuals, by their nature, don't have kids.
You've just proven that your sexual preference is by choice.
Thanks for playing.

It's pretty obvious that you aren't "aware" of a lot of things. Science must be a new concept for you as well.

Being gay does not "nix out" biological functions of procreation. We still have the ability and the desire to procreate...we just use that foreign concept of science to do it...like so many heterosexual couples do these days.

Every wonder why so many more people are finding that they are unable to have children? Could be the same reason that homosexuality exists...population control?

Unfortunately for Mother Nature, the human animal has come up with ways to get around her forced population control. Silly humans...

How does my having children "prove" that sexual orientation is a choice? I didn't have sex with men to have children.

 

[kaz]

The main reason is to obtain the same financial benefits that apply to man-woman marriages. I've seen situations where a partner in a gay relationship of 25 years dies and the other partner is left with nothing. That's not right.

It's also not necessary. They could have had a will which is a far easier solution then marriage. BTW, if a married person dies without a will then it's also more expensive and complicated depending on where they live as well. Using marriage as a will is like hammering in brads with a sledge hammer.

A will cannot change tax code and the tax free transfer of property to a surviving spouse. It also cannot change Estate Tax Law that allows a surviving spouse to claim the married tax exemption ($500,000 for a couple) on the sale of a principle home after the death of a spouse even though that individual is actually "single" after the date of death.



>>>>

So gays need to be paid money to feel equal?

Actually that is a huge reason I oppose gay marriage. The death tax is immoral. We pay when we earn it, invest it and spend it. Confiscating huge chunks of it when we die is pathetic. Now, let's work this one:

1) Liberals support gay marriage
2) Liberals demand a hefty death tax

So I let them off the hook that they want gay partners to get past the death tax they demand? Again, gay marriage is being used as a sledge hammer to nail in brads. Eliminate the death tax. And BTW, I oppose eliminating all benefits to marriage in addition to government marriage. Taxes should be simplified and flat. People should have whomever they want get their money. Marriage should not be a government function. As I pointed out it is and it's then used as an instrument for politicians to divide people. As you gave a great example of.

BTW, I thought only the evil rich pay the death tax. Are you saying gays farts don't smell and they amazingly aren't even evil when they are rich? If gays want equality, shouldn't they be punished for success like everyone else?

 

[bripat9643]

A will cannot change tax code and the tax free transfer of property to a surviving spouse. It also cannot change Estate Tax Law that allows a surviving spouse to claim the married tax exemption ($500,000 for a couple) on the sale of a principle home after the death of a spouse even though that individual is actually "single" after the date of death.

The only reason for that exemption is that in past typically women didn't work. The marital assets were her only source of income. That isn't the case with homosexuals. Do you know of any such union where one of the parties doesn't have a job?

What social purpose is served by giving the partners of homosexuals the same benefits as the spouse of a heterosexual marriage? None that I can see.

 

[logical4u]

The majority of marriages (proper definition) have children (and they do it the 'green way', no extra costs from doctor manipulations), because it is impossible to 'know' which couples will not (or cannot) have children, it would be very hard to enforce.

the 'green way'?

"Doctor manipulations"?

I guess some folks are anti-science and prefer that everything relating to child birth and baby-making be done the "natural" way!

Shall we go back to the days before local or general anesthetics, only allow children to be born at home, (no hospitals involved) and no access to doctors for women about to give birth? That was the case for almost all Americans at the time of the founding "fathers"!

I believe that is what this new "health care bill" is all about: denying care for extensive treatments (don't be surprised if all medical methods to assist in pregnancy are restricted to the political elite and their friends) so the gov't can do to those funds what it did with social security funds. The liberals are all about eliminating energy in everyday lives, and moving us back towards the "green" methods. I am pointing out that the "homosexual" unions require the very thing that they are voting to reduce/eliminate. When something is efficient, why not encourage it (that would be "traditional marriage")? When something is inefficient, why not discourage it (taxes, fines, you know like the gov't does for other unhealthy behaviors)?

 

[Seawytch]

I'm gay and I've had five babies. Now please explain your compelling state reason to deny my family the exact same rights, benefits and privileges that heterosexuals enjoy?

What exactly can't you do?

Tax Benefits
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.

Estate Planning Benefits
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.

Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.Receiving public assistance benefits.Employment BenefitsObtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.

Medical Benefits
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.Death BenefitsConsenting to after-death examinations and procedures.Making burial or other final arrangements.

Family Benefits
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.Applying for joint foster care rights.Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.

Housing Benefits
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

Consumer Benefits
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.

Other Legal Benefits and Protections
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

Marriage Rights and Benefits - Free Legal Information - Nolo

 

[bodecea]

bodecea:

Sorry, that is not equal protection under the law...either all civil marriages and supporting documentation gets changed to "civil union"...and that includes all laws, statutes, etc. Or else the term "marriage" continues to be used for all.

Separate but equal is a failed paradigm.

When you compare (black skin color) = (human being) to (boyboy or girlgirl) = (marraige) you are stretching the analogy a bit too far. It IS different. And the law will have to TREAT it differently. As I said in my post -- you are glossing over HUGE legal ramifications about preferences for child custody going to the FEMALE in a hetero divorce. Hetero women are gonna LOSE those advantages if you insist on stealing the terminology.

The blow-back that you're getting is LARGELY because you don't want the legal equality. You are DEMANDING the social equity that the mere change in law won't give you..

I find it very sad that there are so-called intelligent people who cannot see that something is discrimination unless it fits the exact same cookie cutter version as past discrimination.

Case in point

Thinking it's NOT discrimination if you at least don't get lynched.

Thinking it's NOT discrimination if you at least aren't put in the back of the bus.

Thinking it's NOT discrimination if you at least aren't hired because of your gender.

Discrimination is being treated LESS in some way...not necessarily the same way as another group.

Should we say that women were not discriminated against because at least they weren't lynched?

Should we say that Japanese Americans weren't discriminated against because at least they didn't have to drink from separate water fountains?

Should we say that Jewish Americans weren't discriminated against because at least they didn't have to sit in the back of the bus?


Seriously people?

 

[bodecea]

A will cannot change tax code and the tax free transfer of property to a surviving spouse. It also cannot change Estate Tax Law that allows a surviving spouse to claim the married tax exemption ($500,000 for a couple) on the sale of a principle home after the death of a spouse even though that individual is actually "single" after the date of death.

The only reason for that exemption is that in past typically women didn't work. The marital assets were her only source of income. That isn't the case with homosexuals. Do you know of any such union where one of the parties doesn't have a job?

What social purpose is served by giving the partners of homosexuals the same benefits as the spouse of a heterosexual marriage? None that I can see.

Because you support gays being treated as less because they are gay. We get that.

 

[brono921]

It's pretty obvious that you aren't "aware" of a lot of things. Science must be a new concept for you as well.
Hmmm.....this should be fun.

Being gay does not "nix out" biological functions of procreation. We still have the ability and the desire to procreate...we just use that foreign concept of science to do it...like so many heterosexual couples do these days.
These days. Was that same science available, say, 50 years ago? How 'bout 100? 1,000? Or even 10,000?
Ooops.
So went your so called "gene".

Every wonder why so many more people are finding that they are unable to have children?
Nope. It has happened throughout human history. It's called nature.

Unfortunately for Mother Nature, the human animal has come up with ways to get around her forced population control. Silly humans...
Presently. You've failed to account for a gene that doesn't propogate itself being present after hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, without artificial encimination. And you thought you knew shit about science? Silly liberal.

How does my having children "prove" that sexual orientation is a choice?
It doesn't. Your sexual promiscuity, preference and desire is your own. That's your choice.
Children are the way humans and all animals pass down their genetic code. Again, science just ain't your bag, is it?

 

[SW2SILVER]

WE will tell you that we did not make a choice to be attracted to members of the same sex...it is simply how we have ALWAYS felt

I have no problem with that. But I don't see why you need a government piece of paper to validate it

The main reason is to obtain the same financial benefits that apply to man-woman marriages. I've seen situations where a partner in a gay relationship of 25 years dies and the other partner is left with nothing. That's not right.

WHY isn't it "right"? I can't get past the "gay couples" part, IF they or you want fairness, then follow ALL the constraints of marriage, don't try to change those constraints if they are not in your favor or cry foul. That is how a child thinks.

 

[kaz]

I'm gay and I've had five babies. Now please explain your compelling state reason to deny my family the exact same rights, benefits and privileges that heterosexuals enjoy?

What exactly can't you do?

Tax Benefits
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.

Estate Planning Benefits
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.

Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.Receiving public assistance benefits.Employment BenefitsObtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.

Medical Benefits
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.Death BenefitsConsenting to after-death examinations and procedures.Making burial or other final arrangements.

Family Benefits
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.Applying for joint foster care rights.Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.

Housing Benefits
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

Consumer Benefits
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.

Other Legal Benefits and Protections
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

Marriage Rights and Benefits - Free Legal Information - Nolo

Exactly, it's about money. Finally you're being honest. And that's why you were full of crap comparing gay rights to black rights as well. I've been trying to get you to admit it. So you can't feel equal unless you can stick your hand in the wallet someone else's pants? BTW, if you're reading all my posts you know I oppose all these for straight couples as well.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

I'm gay and I've had five babies. Now please explain your compelling state reason to deny my family the exact same rights, benefits and privileges that heterosexuals enjoy?

What exactly can't you do?

Tax Benefits
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.

Estate Planning Benefits
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.

Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.Receiving public assistance benefits.Employment BenefitsObtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.

Medical Benefits
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.Death BenefitsConsenting to after-death examinations and procedures.Making burial or other final arrangements.

Family Benefits
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.Applying for joint foster care rights.Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.

Housing Benefits
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

Consumer Benefits
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.

Other Legal Benefits and Protections
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

Marriage Rights and Benefits - Free Legal Information - Nolo

So, it's all about getting your hands on stuff.

Got it. Now, can we move past all the moral grandstanding and just say it's about money?

 

[Seawytch]

Now see, you can't stick with facts. The fact is that men and women have different personalities. My children would not have been nearly as adjusted with two of me or with two of my wife, they need both personalities not just two adults. Your best argument is the freedom to live your own life, I support that. But lame arguments like that just kill your credibility.

I have studies to back up my points...do you?

Study: Same-Sex Parents Raise Well-Adjusted Kids

I'll happily stack my kids up against any of ya'lls any old day.

The ideal situation for kids is two parents, a man and a woman. I never said kids can't grow up and function without that, but it's not ideal. If you took kids who didn't have that, then you certainly performed a great service for them. But to say it makes no difference? Wow, a liberal study saying the sky isn't blue. Yet I look up and it is. You're a dogmatic wacko. That makes it entertaining to listen to you but no one's going to take you seriously. I support leaving you alone, yet you can't tell the difference between me and someone who condemns you to hell. 1% against me, you are 100% against me!

Are you one of those nut jobs who says anyone who thinks men are taller or stronger then women on average is a sexist?

No it doesn't make a difference and is just as ideal as heterosexual raising kids. The IDEAL situation for children is two parents who love them, period.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

I have studies to back up my points...do you?

Study: Same-Sex Parents Raise Well-Adjusted Kids

I'll happily stack my kids up against any of ya'lls any old day.

The ideal situation for kids is two parents, a man and a woman. I never said kids can't grow up and function without that, but it's not ideal. If you took kids who didn't have that, then you certainly performed a great service for them. But to say it makes no difference? Wow, a liberal study saying the sky isn't blue. Yet I look up and it is. You're a dogmatic wacko. That makes it entertaining to listen to you but no one's going to take you seriously. I support leaving you alone, yet you can't tell the difference between me and someone who condemns you to hell. 1% against me, you are 100% against me!

Are you one of those nut jobs who says anyone who thinks men are taller or stronger then women on average is a sexist?

No it doesn't make a difference and is just as ideal as heterosexual raising kids. The IDEAL situation for children is two parents who love them, period.

Wrongo. The ideal is healthy and functional heterosexual household.

 

[bripat9643]

In other words, it's all about cash - shallow selfish pecuniary interests. All this talk about love is just so much horseshit. Why would the taxpayers want to increase the burden on themselves for no perceptible benefit to society whatsoever?

Tax Benefits
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.

Estate Planning Benefits
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.

Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.Receiving public assistance benefits.Employment BenefitsObtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.

Medical Benefits
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.Death BenefitsConsenting to after-death examinations and procedures.Making burial or other final arrangements.

Family Benefits
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.Applying for joint foster care rights.Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.

Housing Benefits
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

Consumer Benefits
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.

Other Legal Benefits and Protections
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

Marriage Rights and Benefits - Free Legal Information - Nolo

 

[logical4u]

So...eliminate marriage for all people who could get diseases....using your logic.

I am pointing out that people that engage in homosexual activity (males) have a higher rate of getting diseases than people that don't (heterosexuals). BTW this study did not include those that had multiple opposite sex partners.

Then do you support Same-sex Civil Marriage for females since they have lower rates of STD/HIV's then both gay men and heterosexuals?



>>>>

Are they the "union" of a man and a woman? I am not for re-defining words, period. If you want something that is legally equal, then make an acceptable term for it (because those that mock them will make plenty of unacceptable terms). Do not re-define words that are used in basic communication, world-wide to fit a very, very narrow desire of a small percentage of the population. What is next, the blacks (no offense to anyone here, it is just an "obvious" example)want to be defined as "white" because "black" can be associated with bad/ill/evil? Can you imaging the descriptions for that: there is an elderly white, but a different shade of white, man that has dementia that has been missing for one day, if you see a different shade of white man in his eighties wearing a blue shirt and black pants, please notify the police?
The Lord gave all people the ability to "reason", please use it.

 

[Bass v 2.0]

The gays still don't get it, every American can marry, however, every American cannot have the special marriage of their choice that suits their sexual lifestyle, thus gays cannot say they have no right to marry.