Opposition to Gay Marriage - Any Basis Other Than Intolerance and Bigotry?

[kaz]

What is your standard for "winning" since you know nothing about my kids?

Don't have to know yours, I know mine.

You didn't say you have great kids, which I have no reason to doubt. You said they are better then mine. That is the standard which I asked you for, how are your kids better then mine since if we compare them you "win?"

Once again, you fail to back up your crap

 

[logical4u]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Homosexual unions have always been people rejecting the societies that gave them their partner in the first place. Isn't that "bigoted"?

I am fluent in two languages, one of them English, and I keep reading this statement over and over and try to divine a speck of meaning, logic, and sense from it.

People who chose to love a specific partner in a life-long committed relationship are "bigoted"?

Not to mention the alleged "fact" being asserted, (without a single link to research or historical evidence).

I'm stumped! Can someone help me try to make sense of thatt? Or is it just more defense/offensive make-it-up-as-he-goes-along baloney?

Aren't you as a homosexual extremist saying that homosexual marriage should be accepted as normal? Doesn't that strike you as false? A homosexual partner comes from the union of one man and one woman. Declaring the homosexual way to be normal (if everyone did it) would eliminate future generations. Isn't it non-scientific (hence bigoted) to believe that a system that has proven non-productive will produce?

 

[logical4u]

I'm gay and I've had five babies. Now please explain your compelling state reason to deny my family the exact same rights, benefits and privileges that heterosexuals enjoy?

What exactly can't you do?

Tax Benefits
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.

Estate Planning Benefits
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.

Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.Receiving public assistance benefits.Employment BenefitsObtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.

Medical Benefits
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.Death BenefitsConsenting to after-death examinations and procedures.Making burial or other final arrangements.

Family Benefits
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.Applying for joint foster care rights.Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.

Housing Benefits
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

Consumer Benefits
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.

Other Legal Benefits and Protections
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

Marriage Rights and Benefits - Free Legal Information - Nolo

I thought you were "married", what is the problem?

 

[Seawytch]

No, we want to get legally married for the exact same reasons that heterosexuals get legally married. There is no difference in the "reasons" that we want to marry our partners...none at all. Are you legally married? If you are, why did you get legally married?

If you wanted to get married for the same reasons that heterosexuals get married that would be to form a partnership with the opposite sex, and Lord willing, have children from that specific union (part hers, part his). You do not want to get married for the same reasons. Your (poor) imitation of a real marriage is a mockery of "traditional marriage".

Your religious opinion has no bearing on a discussion of legal, civil marriage. We want to legally marry and protect our partners, not someone of the opposite sex that we don't love, honor or cherish. My marrying someone of the opposite sex would be the mockery, not my marrying my long-time partner.

Ours is the EXACT same love, EXACT same commitment, but we are denied the legal protections. In case you were wondering, that is discrimination.

Because it is not a partnership based on having children. Traditionally, the woman sacrificed her career (not always, and the woman still reduces her career in most cases to be the primary care giver for children). Since homosexuals cannot procreate with their partner, that is unecessary, each should be a productive adult in society.

You would have an argument if we gave fertility tests to couple prior to marriage. We don't. We don't prevent the elderly from marrying, despite the fact that they are well beyond their "childbearing" years.

My partner and I have two children. She stays home and cares for our children. Now tell me again why my partnership is not deserving of the rights, benefits and privileges of legal, civil marriage?

Okay, is a "fundemental" or "civil" right? In my opinion, it is neither, if you need another person to make it happen, it cannot be a "right". Is there a law prohibiting homosexuals from entering into "traditional marriage"? If not, homosexuals are being treated just like all of those heterosexuals.

Thanks for sharing your opinion but the LAW of this country says differently. The Supreme Court, on more than one occasion, has declared marriage a fundamental right that cannot even be denied to convicted murderers.

Interracial marriage is still one woman, one man (and I thought you people were "into" science).

Again you are arguing the religious aspect of marriage and that is not what this argument is about. It might interest you to know that people opposed to interracial marriage used the exact same arguments to oppose legalizing it as you do now. Bigotry is still bigotry.

Should bigots (homosexual marriage extremists) be able to force laws on the citizens that is destructive to society?

Ah the rub...see, you can't prove that allowing me equal access to legal, civil marriage would be a detriment to society. The burden of proof is on those opposed to marriage equality to come up with a compelling state reason to deny legal marriage to gay couple and nobody has. This is why ya'll keep losing in court and all these anti-gay laws are being ruled unconstitutional.

Gay marriage will be a reality, across the country, in just a few years. You'll be on the wrong side of history just like those opposed to interracial marriage were.

 

[Seawytch]

What I see is you taking advantage of all the benefits of legal marriage and yet not wanting anyone else to have those advantages. I don't know what they call that where you come from but where I come from it smacks of hypocrisy.

If I don't want to extend the current definition of marriage because I want to roll it back, then I am a hypocrite. Just the way liberals argue.

I have been committed to the same individual for 15 years...without those benefits that you wallow in (while decrying them at the same time). Go ahead and try and school me some more about committed relationships though...it's pretty funny.

Here's what I said the first time:

My ass is white and my wife is Korean. I've got a government marriage because that was the only way I was getting her past her parents out of her house, but the fact that government recognizes our marriage doesn't give it any meaning to me, our relationship gives it meaning. We've been married 22 years and it's not changing, but that has nothing to do with government

I said I got married because of my partner. You demand I ignore her over my political ideology. Hmm...my partner's wishes, my politics. That's how you treat your partner? Or is it just what you assign to me?

Specifically, you never, ever would contradict your political ideology when it came in conflict with your partner's desires. You practice that. Please.

Again, nothing stopping you from getting a divorce is there? Just like prominent conservatives like Bachmman and Ryan, you take advantage of the institutions but don't want them for other people. If that's not hypocrisy, what is it?

 

[Seawytch]

Don't have to know yours, I know mine.

You didn't say you have great kids, which I have no reason to doubt. You said they are better then mine. That is the standard which I asked you for, how are your kids better then mine since if we compare them you "win?"

Once again, you fail to back up your crap

And yet in an earlier post you said your situation was more ideal than mine because your partner is of the opposite sex? Who is spouting crap exactly?

 

[kaz]

Again, nothing stopping you from getting a divorce is there? Just like prominent conservatives like Bachmman and Ryan, you take advantage of the institutions but don't want them for other people. If that's not hypocrisy, what is it?

So answer my question. You are saying I should ignore the wishes of my partner and get a divorce over my political ideology. And you are in a 15 year committed relationship in which follows that rule, that you would never compromise any of your beliefs in deference to your partner.

You are full....of.....crap

 

[Seawytch]

What exactly can't you do?

Tax Benefits
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.

Estate Planning Benefits
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.

Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.Receiving public assistance benefits.Employment BenefitsObtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.

Medical Benefits
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.Death BenefitsConsenting to after-death examinations and procedures.Making burial or other final arrangements.

Family Benefits
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.Applying for joint foster care rights.Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.

Housing Benefits
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

Consumer Benefits
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.

Other Legal Benefits and Protections
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

Marriage Rights and Benefits - Free Legal Information - Nolo

I thought you were "married", what is the problem?

It's called DOMA, look into it.

 

[brono921]

Who is spouting crap exactly?
The same sleaslitch that just got posted up by Charles Darwin, that's who.

 

[kaz]

You didn't say you have great kids, which I have no reason to doubt. You said they are better then mine. That is the standard which I asked you for, how are your kids better then mine since if we compare them you "win?"

Once again, you fail to back up your crap

And yet in an earlier post you said your situation was more ideal than mine because your partner is of the opposite sex? Who is spouting crap exactly?

I didn't say my kids are better then yours, you said yours are better then mine.

I said "all else equal" it's better for kids to have two parents of opposite sex, not two parents of the same sex. That is not a blanket that can be applied to all situations. My God, woman, do you know what "all else equal" means? I like how you boast of reading studies and being well read and your arguments are grade school. If you were right, you'd hold me to what I said, not misapply it to things I didn't. You are actually intellectually lazy and a liar because no fucking way do you treat your partner as you demand I treat mine.

 

[Seawytch]

Again, nothing stopping you from getting a divorce is there? Just like prominent conservatives like Bachmman and Ryan, you take advantage of the institutions but don't want them for other people. If that's not hypocrisy, what is it?

So answer my question. You are saying I should ignore the wishes of my partner and get a divorce over my political ideology. And you are in a 15 year committed relationship in which follows that rule, that you would never compromise any of your beliefs in deference to your partner.

You are full....of.....crap

So, your wife is making you a hypocrite. Good one, can I use it?

Let's talk facts now instead of hypothetical shall we? The FACT is that the libertarian wet dream of getting the government out of the legal marriage business isn't going to happen.

Now that we've established that, we can talk about what compelling state reason there is to prevent gays and lesbians from enjoying those same exact rights, benefits and privileges. There aren't any...

 

[Seawytch]

Who is spouting crap exactly?
The same sleaslitch that just got posted up by Charles Darwin, that's who.

Darwin wasn't a geneticist, Einstein. (Neither was Einstein)

 

[Seawytch]

Once again, you fail to back up your crap

And yet in an earlier post you said your situation was more ideal than mine because your partner is of the opposite sex? Who is spouting crap exactly?

I didn't say my kids are better then yours, you said yours are better then mine.

I said "all else equal" it's better for kids to have two parents of opposite sex, not two parents of the same sex. That is not a blanket that can be applied to all situations. My God, woman, do you know what "all else equal" means? I like how you boast of reading studies and being well read and your arguments are grade school. If you were right, you'd hold me to what I said, not misapply it to things I didn't. You are actually intellectually lazy and a liar because no fucking way do you treat your partner as you demand I treat mine.

And all things equal, the children of gays and lesbians are at no disadvantage to those raised by heterosexuals.

 

[kaz]

So, your wife is making you a hypocrite. Good one, can I use it?

My wife makes me everything I don't want to be, and everything I do. You seriously know nothing about relationships, no way you are in a 15 year one unless your partner is a doormat. My partner's not a spineless loser like yours who lets me walk all over her. And I like it that way. Marriage is where both partners give 60% and get 40%. Marriage is where you do everything you never believed you would. You can't call what you have even a relationship, it's a sick dependency. You're a callous ass and you need to be better to her. That is if you're not just a white, balding, male middle aged New England Elitist who just likes pretending to be a lesbian as another pompous pretense.

 

[Seawytch]

Off to the town picnic. Happy Independence Day...and don't forget to thank a liberal.

 

[Seawytch]

So, your wife is making you a hypocrite. Good one, can I use it?

My wife makes me everything I don't want to be, and everything I do. You seriously know nothing about relationships, no way you are in a 15 year one unless your partner is a doormat. My partner's not a spineless loser like yours who lets me walk all over her. And I like it that way. Marriage is where both partners give 60% and get 40%. Marriage is where you do everything you never believed you would. You can't call what you have even a relationship, it's a sick dependency. You're a callous ass and you need to be better to her. That is if you're not just a white, balding, male middle aged New England Elitist who just likes pretending to be a lesbian as another pompous pretense.

Oooh, someone is a little sensitive about the fact that he's pussy whipped into being a big fucking hypocrite.

 

[Susan45]

Compare the current fight for marriage equality to the fight for interracial marriage and the parallels are stunning. There's even a test you can take...

Marriage Quiz

My ass is white and my wife is Korean. I've got a government marriage because that was the only way I was getting her past her parents out of her house, but the fact that government recognizes our marriage doesn't give it any meaning to me, our relationship gives it meaning. We've been married 22 years and it's not changing, but that has nothing to do with government.

Kaz, I'll bet you would think differently if one of you got ill and the other wasn't allowed to visit in the hospital because you weren't family. Or if for some reason your children weren't considered your children because you wife is Korean. I've know a few Korean people over the years and I know she would be the first one in line to change things.

I really don't think you've given this much thought, because anyone that does have a wonderful marriage would want to share the experience with other people.

 

[brono921]

Darwin wasn't a geneticist, Einstein.

Nope. He just wrote the book on evolution, braintrust.

 

[kaz]

Off to the town picnic. Happy Independence Day...and don't forget to thank a liberal.

Have fun. When your friends see you coming they're going to say look, here comes the witch...

 

[kaz]

Compare the current fight for marriage equality to the fight for interracial marriage and the parallels are stunning. There's even a test you can take...

Marriage Quiz

My ass is white and my wife is Korean. I've got a government marriage because that was the only way I was getting her past her parents out of her house, but the fact that government recognizes our marriage doesn't give it any meaning to me, our relationship gives it meaning. We've been married 22 years and it's not changing, but that has nothing to do with government.

Kaz, I'll bet you would think differently if one of you got ill and the other wasn't allowed to visit in the hospital because you weren't family. Or if for some reason your children weren't considered your children because you wife is Korean. I've know a few Korean people over the years and I know she would be the first one in line to change things.

I really don't think you've given this much thought, because anyone that does have a wonderful marriage would want to share the experience with other people.

I agree Susan, but that is not limited to my wife and it's not necessary to solve with marriage. So trying to use marriage is overkill and only partially effective anyway.