Orthodox Jews and Zionism

[Indeependent]

I can sort of see where you are coming from.
Here's the mistake...
There are tens of thousands of STUDENTS.
There are MAYBE less than a dozen Rabbis...worldwide.
These select few have maybe one or two people catering to their needs around the clock.
I'm talking GENIUS level...these are the people we want to study Torah all day long.
The rest can easily have a profession and study in whatever extra time they have on their hands.

You have never studied Talmud so you have no idea what it entails.
In fact, most Jews who study Talmud have no idea what it entails.
Try reading a few words from a Mishnah and spending MONTHS extracting a few dozen patterns of thought from these few words that have impacted the Jews for over 2 thousand years.

OK, obviously you didn't actually watch the video.

There are a few hundred rabbis and 10,000 people just in Foley Sq.

Smee-cha (Rabbinical ordination) these days is almost as valuable as toilet paper and not much more difficult to receive after a mere 20 years of Yeshiva education.
The mistake you make is thinking that some guys who call themselves "rabbis" are heavy hitters where they are actually nobodys in terms of influence.
These guys DO have smee-cha and most of them don't know much more than myself.
Yes, I could get smee-cha if I so chose to, but what would I use it for except for tax write offs? Not a very noble goal.

 

[Indeependent]

I think your perception that their support diminishes by the minute reflects the polarization among Zionists on this issue.

What we see is Zionism developing as an almost entirely secular political movement, that is now even turning on Judaism itself. Obviously Zionism is using Judaism exactly the way Rabbi Shapiro identifies. Zionism justifies itself as a movement of the Jewish people, but it sounds like that claim is very likely illegitimate because when it comes down to it, they oppose Judaism.

"Someone beats you, ties you up in a closet, and takes your identity, calls themselves whatever your name is. They take your credit cards and rack up bills. Then they come to you out of the closet and says "At least you've got to help me pay. We have bills."

No one here seems to be understanding what he is saying about Torah study, or coming up with an answer. Zionism is not their problem... they never bought into it.

They never bought into anything they could get for free.

 

[toastman]

Amity, you have shown us over and over and over that you really don't know what you're talking about. Your obsession with the word 'Zionist/Zionism' is really freaky and to be honest I see you as nothing but a hateful scumbag.
You said that the Fogels were legit targets, and then you expect us to take you seriously.

 

[MHunterB]

They count by their sheer numbers.

surely Judaism as it existed before Zionism counts as "authentic." Reform or Conservative Judaism with an overlay of Zionist nationalist/secular justification? You say it is? On what grounds? I'm asking. I'm not answering. So explain it to me please.

To me it is directly related to I/P because if Rabbi Shapiro is right, Zionism is done. He claims it is not authentic Judaism. You haven't answered him.

LIAR. I answered IT ONCE ALREADY - you said nobody had posted. So I quoted my words into the second thread. I'm not going to keep doing it for you.

Now go find my explanation as to what's wrong with *their* ideas, and see if you can figure it out. Suffice it to say my argument was based in Torah, and none of it had anything to do with Zionism.

R.Shapiro is wrong: he's as wrong as the 'Christian Identity' preachers are wrong, and for extremely similar reasons. Now why don't you explain to the rest of us why they are not Christian....... ???

 

[amity1844]

Amity, you have shown us over and over and over that you really don't know what you're talking about. Your obsession with the word 'Zionist/Zionism' is really freaky and to be honest I see you as nothing but a hateful scumbag.
You said that the Fogels were legit targets, and then you expect us to take you seriously.

I told you I didn't know who the Fogels were. I said that settlers were legit targets under international law.

 

[MHunterB]

I think your perception that their support diminishes by the minute reflects the polarization among Zionists on this issue.

What we see is Zionism developing as an almost entirely secular political movement, that is now even turning on Judaism itself. Obviously Zionism is using Judaism exactly the way Rabbi Shapiro identifies. Zionism justifies itself as a movement of the Jewish people, but it sounds like that claim is very likely illegitimate because when it comes down to it, they oppose Judaism.

"Someone beats you, ties you up in a closet, and takes your identity, calls themselves whatever your name is. They take your credit cards and rack up bills. Then they come to you out of the closet and says "At least you've got to help me pay. We have bills."

No one here seems to be understanding what he is saying about Torah study, or coming up with an answer. Zionism is not their problem... they never bought into it. I hope these poor people can at least find refuge, because it sounds like they are going to wind up as refugees, too.

NO. The rest of us here see Hostility presuming to dictate for Jews what is or isn't authentic Judaism - and ignoring everything every Jew here tells her.


These guys yearn for the days when every Jewish community was at the mercy of others. It's like if MLK and Malcolm had gotten together and told the US Government: " We want our 40 acres and our mule" .......who among the AA community would have respected THAT idea????

 

[MHunterB]

Amity, you have shown us over and over and over that you really don't know what you're talking about. Your obsession with the word 'Zionist/Zionism' is really freaky and to be honest I see you as nothing but a hateful scumbag.
You said that the Fogels were legit targets, and then you expect us to take you seriously.

I told you I didn't know who the Fogels were. I said that settlers were legit targets under international law.

Well, now you do know and you still fantasize that it was 'legit' to go decapitate a 3 month old baby. BY your lights, the IDF would've been within their rights to carpet-bomb Gaza and turn every structure there to powder.....

 

[amity1844]

R.Shapiro is wrong: he's as wrong as the 'Christian Identity' preachers are wrong, and for extremely similar reasons. Now why don't you explain to the rest of us why they are not Sorry, I don't know who they are either, what they teach, or what's wrong with them.

I don't see why Orthodox Jews can't continue with the divinity exemption they have always had.

 

[MHunterB]

Misnagdim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is about the historical Rabbinic opposition to Hasidism from the 1700s, centred in Lithuania. For the non-Hasidic stream of Eastern European Judaism, see Lithuanian Jews.

Misnagdim or Mitnagdim is a Hebrew word (מתנגדי&#1501 meaning "opponents".[3] It is the plural of misnaged or mitnaged. The term "Misnagdim" commonly refers to opponents of Hasidism.[3] The term "Misnagdim" gained a common usage among Jews living in Europe as the term that referred to Ashkenazi Jews who opposed the rise and spread of early Hasidic Judaism.[3] .....

Most of the changes made by the Hasidim were the product of the Hasidic approach to Kabbalah, particularly as expressed by Rabbi Isaac Luria (1534–1572), known as "the ARI" and his disciples, particularly Rabbi Chaim Vital (1543–1620). Both Misnagdim and hassidim were greatly influenced by the ARI, but the legalistic Misnagdim feared in hassidism what they perceived as disturbing parallels to the Sabatean movement. An example of such an idea was the concept that the entire universe is completely nullified to God. Depending on how this idea was preached and interpreted, it could give rise to pantheism, universally acknowledged as a heresy, or lead to immoral behavior, since elements of Kabbalah can be misconstrued to de-emphasize ritual by rote and glorifies sexual metaphors as a deeper means of grasping some inner hidden notions in the Torah based on the Jews' intimate relationship with God.

The stress of Jewish prayer over Torah study and the Hasidic reinterpretation of Torah l'shma (Torah study for its own sake), was seen as a rejection of traditional Judaism."


Several points to be noted here:

The refusal comes from Orthodox rabbis of the later 1700's: people who were practicing 'antique' Judaism ('pre-Haskalah') - NOT from 'Reform' Judaism.

The refusal is NOT based on any 'political' views, but on the potential for heresy of various sorts inherent in some theology of the Hasidic approach to Torah.

The refusal is ALSO based on the prominence of Kabalah in Hasidic practice: Kabalah is not as 'official' as Talmud, not by a very long shot.

At no time was the idea of 'Zionism' in any sense mentioned by any of the parties involved on any side. That's because being 'anti-Zionist' is simply an incidental: the Haredim are using it as a rallying point.

The 'Christian' group which is most like these folks is the JW's....... and I haven't met many non-JW Christians who have much tolerance for JW's either.

 

[amity1844]

Now THAT is useful.

Thank you very much, I'll read it and ask questions. I appreciate it very much.

 

[amity1844]

Amity, you have shown us over and over and over that you really don't know what you're talking about. Your obsession with the word 'Zionist/Zionism' is really freaky and to be honest I see you as nothing but a hateful scumbag.
You said that the Fogels were legit targets, and then you expect us to take you seriously.

I told you I didn't know who the Fogels were. I said that settlers were legit targets under international law.

Well, now you do know and you still fantasize that it was 'legit' to go decapitate a 3 month old baby. BY your lights, the IDF would've been within their rights to carpet-bomb Gaza and turn every structure there to powder.....

Take it up with Den Hague. Its not a real issue. If an outside power is occupying your country, you attack where allowable and accessible. Get babies out of the settlements. In fact get EVERYBODY out of the settlements.

 

[Indeependent]

Misnagdim and Chasidim are not running through the streets murdering each other.
I have friends on both sides.

 

[MHunterB]

R.Shapiro is wrong: he's as wrong as the 'Christian Identity' preachers are wrong, and for extremely similar reasons. Now why don't you explain to the rest of us why they are not Sorry, I don't know who they are either, what they teach, or what's wrong with them.

I don't see why Orthodox Jews can't continue with the divinity exemption they have always had.

Because they are NOT 'Orthodox' Jews to begin with. We explained that: 'Orthodox' within Judaism has a specific meaning, and you haven't been using it correctly.

Since you profess to be ignorant about 'Christian Identity', here is some information for you:
CHRISTIAN IDENTITY MOVEMENT

Oh, and BTW - they are a prime argument for the EXCEPTION to 'self-determination', as they consider themselves 'the real Christians'.

Please note that the general attitude towards 'the other' in CI is something they have in common with some of the Haredi groups and with JW's........

 

[MHunterB]

Misnagdim and Chasidim are not running through the streets murdering each other.
I have friends on both sides.

Of course they're not. But neither are most of them throwing rocks at women who arrive in their neighborhoods wearing sleeveless tops or shorts....... or at people driving cars on Shabbat.

The point is, the ones who DO throw rocks are hooligans and law-breakers and are a perennial nuisance. Yes, SOME 'pro-Zionist' Jews spit on anyone else - and so do SOME 'anti-Zionist' Jews.

Some of my family are Hasidim, too. Some are Sephardi, a couple Mizrachi.....

 

[amity1844]

I don't see the analogy between the Christian Identity and "these particular Orthodox Jews" at all.

 

[MHunterB]

LOL - that's because you haven't found out what the NK believe about the Messianic Age..........

 

[amity1844]

They're not neturei karta

 

[Lipush]

I told you I didn't know who the Fogels were. I said that settlers were legit targets under international law.

Well, now you do know and you still fantasize that it was 'legit' to go decapitate a 3 month old baby. BY your lights, the IDF would've been within their rights to carpet-bomb Gaza and turn every structure there to powder.....

Take it up with Den Hague. Its not a real issue. If an outside power is occupying your country, you attack where allowable and accessible. Get babies out of the settlements. In fact get EVERYBODY out of the settlements.

Including babies.

Babies are fair game.

As I said earlier, please don't pretend to be a caring person of you keep saying such nonsense.

 

[amity1844]

Settlers are not very good parents, they put acquisition of territory over the lives of their own children, apparently.

 

[Lipush]

Settlers are not very good parents, they put acquisition of territory over the lives of their own children, apparently.

How many settlers you personally know?