Owning Guns Doesn't Preserve Freedom

[Spoonman]

Jon -

As I said, neither the UK, Germany or France have a major poblem with illegal weapons, and neither do most other countries with safety-based laws, such as Spain, Japan, Australia or Holland.

Safety based laws? Seriously?

When you point out how those safety based laws eliminate crime and drugs we can talk.

Driver's licenses do not directly prevent car accidents - but most people understand why we have them.

If you really can not figure out for yourself how disarming gangs might reduce crime, then I'm not sure it is worth my while explaining it to you.

And yes, 'gun safety' is the issue here.

how will background checks disarm gangs

 

[Spoonman]

How are you disarming gangs?

drug cartels all throughout south and central america have tough gun laws..but they get them....hmmmmm

I am constantly stunned how low the bar is set for the US these days.

It used to be that the US would be a world leader - now if you can keep up with Honduras, Panama or Nicaragua, that seems to be good enough. I have to say, I think the American people deserve better than what El Salvador has to offer.

Disarming gangs is not even a consideration until the gun laws are in place that ensure that people can not acquire weapons legally. You guys can not go on about how gangs get their weapons illegally, but at the moment they don't often need to.

Once those laws are in place, then it is a case of seizing caches of weapons, ensuring illegal weapons are difficult to get, and ensuring that police are seizing weapons at every opportunity. It won't happen overnight, but over the course of 5 - 10 years, it is definitely possible, and should be considered an achievable goal. Alternatively, you can throw your hands up and let the gangs do what they like.

sounds more like a reason to tighten up immigration the ban guns

 

[Spoonman]

the more you can't buy legally, the more it becomes available illegally

Nonsense - neither the UK, Germany nor France have a major problem with illegal weapons, nor do most other countries with safety-based laws.

so you are saying the murders they have are done with legal guns?

 

[Spoonman]

and getting stronger everyday

the more you can't buy legally, the more it becomes available illegally

certainly

the ATF says the number one item

of the near future in the black market is tobacco

where it has become profitable to move

smokes taxed at a cheaper rate to places

where it is taxed beyond belief

I worked for big tobacco. there were actually studies done to determine what the maximum level cigarettes could be taxed before they became an item that would attract black market appeal . there are a lot of games the black market is already playing with cigarettes and tax stamps.

 

[jon_berzerk]

the more you can't buy legally, the more it becomes available illegally

certainly

the ATF says the number one item

of the near future in the black market is tobacco

where it has become profitable to move

smokes taxed at a cheaper rate to places

where it is taxed beyond belief

I worked for big tobacco. there were actually studies done to determine what the maximum level cigarettes could be taxed before they became an item that would attract black market appeal . there are a lot of games the black market is already playing with cigarettes and tax stamps.

according to the ATF in many areas we have

already crossed that threshold

 

[Spoonman]

certainly

the ATF says the number one item

of the near future in the black market is tobacco

where it has become profitable to move

smokes taxed at a cheaper rate to places

where it is taxed beyond belief

I worked for big tobacco. there were actually studies done to determine what the maximum level cigarettes could be taxed before they became an item that would attract black market appeal . there are a lot of games the black market is already playing with cigarettes and tax stamps.

according to the ATF in many areas we have

already crossed that threshold

oh it definitely has. especially in states with the highest tax rates. stolen product has become such an issue that every trailer of cigarettes now has a GPS tracked in it so they can monitor exactly where it goes. if it is stolen and it strays off course they know it right away. the big issue they have now is selling product stamped for sale in a low tax state like SC in a high tax state like NY you think about the money these states have to spend doing spot checks on the product an making sure it is properly stamped. indian reservations are another huge problem. because they are constantly selling their product which has no to limited taxes on the black market for greater profit

 

[jon_berzerk]

I worked for big tobacco. there were actually studies done to determine what the maximum level cigarettes could be taxed before they became an item that would attract black market appeal . there are a lot of games the black market is already playing with cigarettes and tax stamps.

according to the ATF in many areas we have

already crossed that threshold

oh it definitely has. especially in states with the highest tax rates. stolen product has become such an issue that every trailer of cigarettes now has a GPS tracked in it so they can monitor exactly where it goes. if it is stolen and it strays off course they know it right away. the big issue they have now is selling product stamped for sale in a low tax state like SC in a high tax state like NY you think about the money these states have to spend doing spot checks on the product an making sure it is properly stamped. indian reservations are another huge problem. because they are constantly selling their product which has no to limited taxes on the black market for greater profit

yeah it is happening out here in South Dakota

reservation smokes are a lot cheaper then the off the reservation ones

there are some folks who pick up a 1000 cartons at a time and cart them off

to who knows where

 

[Saigon]

the more you can't buy legally, the more it becomes available illegally

Nonsense - neither the UK, Germany nor France have a major problem with illegal weapons, nor do most other countries with safety-based laws.

so you are saying the murders they have are done with legal guns?

I am trying to be patient here - I really am.

I am posting this for at least the 6th time this week - I am trying to explain that the gun-related murder rate in the UK is somthing around 95% lower than it is in the US.

Honestly - which words there do you not understand?

 

[Saigon]

how will background checks disarm gangs

By making it harder for gang members to legally buy guns.

Obviously.

 

[Politico]

They don't legally buy them now.

 

[Saigon]

They don't legally buy them now.

Some do, some don't - but mos obviously can buy guns legally if they wish to.

Personally, I find the idea that no gang members own guns legally to be rather silly.

 

[jon_berzerk]

They don't legally buy them now.

Some do, some don't - but mos obviously can buy guns legally if they wish to.

Personally, I find the idea that no gang members own guns legally to be rather silly.

if they are felons or minors they are not buying them legally

 

[editec]

and getting stronger everyday

the more you can't buy legally, the more it becomes available illegally

certainly

the ATF says the number one item

of the near future in the black market is tobacco

where it has become profitable to move

smokes taxed at a cheaper rate to places

where it is taxed beyond belief

I suspect that tobacco is already one of the most profitable smuggled items in America.

FWIW, ciggies just went up another 20 cents per pack here in Maine.

American Spirits are now $8.18 a pack.

I hear talk of another $1 per pack FEDERAL tax is next.

 

[jon_berzerk]

the more you can't buy legally, the more it becomes available illegally

certainly

the ATF says the number one item

of the near future in the black market is tobacco

where it has become profitable to move

smokes taxed at a cheaper rate to places

where it is taxed beyond belief

I suspect that tobacco is already one of the most profitable smuggled items in America.

FWIW, ciggies just went up another 20 cents per pack here in Maine.

American Spirits are now $8.18 a pack.

I hear talk of another $1 per pack FEDERAL tax is next.

morning editec

yeah i heard they are pushing for another dollar a pack in taxes

out on the res

name brands are between $3.50 to $4.00 a pack

Indian brands $2.50 a pack

there is a pretty big margin to work from

 

[Saigon]

They don't legally buy them now.

Some do, some don't - but mos obviously can buy guns legally if they wish to.

Personally, I find the idea that no gang members own guns legally to be rather silly.

if they are felons or minors they are not buying them legally

Which does not explain to me why you are defending gangs ability to legally arm every member of their group who are not convicted felons.

It's very odd to me that the NRA position on this topic is basically one of defending gangs.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Some do, some don't - but mos obviously can buy guns legally if they wish to.

Personally, I find the idea that no gang members own guns legally to be rather silly.

if they are felons or minors they are not buying them legally

Which does not explain to me why you are defending gangs ability to legally arm every member of their group who are not convicted felons.

It's very odd to me that the NRA position on this topic is basically one of defending gangs.

no one is defending that

straw purchases are already illegal

you are not making sense

 

[Saigon]

Jon -

I am making more sense than the person who writes

poetic forms with

words on different

lines.

And yes - you are defending the rights of gangs to arm themselves. You may not realise, but that is the game the NRA is in, and you will think what you are told to think.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Jon -

I am making more sense than the person who writes

poetic forms with

words on different

lines.

And yes - you are defending the rights of gangs to arm themselves. You may not realise, but that is the game the NRA is in, and you will think what you are told to think.

i keep it short and sweet

your morning flaming

is an early indication that you have already lost the issue

there is no reason for a person to "straw purchase" firearms

for persons who can "legally" have a firearm

and if that does not make sense to you

that is not my fault

 

[Saigon]

Jon -

there is no reason for a person to "straw purchase" firearms

for persons who can "legally" have a firearm

Exactly - so at the moment you are defnding laws which allow gangs to legally acquire weapons.

btw, pointing out the sub-literate nature of your posting is not flaming - it's merely stating a fact.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Jon -

there is no reason for a person to "straw purchase" firearms

for persons who can "legally" have a firearm

Exactly - so at the moment you are defnding laws which allow gangs to legally acquire weapons.

btw, pointing out the sub-literate nature of your posting is not flaming - it's merely stating a fact.

--LOL

either they are criminals or not

which is it