Owning Guns Doesn't Preserve Freedom

[jon_berzerk]

Jon -

As I said, neither the UK, Germany or France have a major problem with illegal weapons, and neither do most other countries with safety-based laws, such as Spain, Japan, Australia or Holland.

who are you trying to kid

with your nonsense

the black market is alive and well in Europe

French gunman's arsenal spotlights illegal arms trade

(Reuters) - As France asks itself whether it could have done more to prevent Islamist gunman Mohamed Merah shooting dead seven people in a killing spree that shook the nation, there is one question that refuses to go away: how did he obtain so many guns.

The size and nature of the arsenal amassed by Merah - who stockpiled at least eight guns including a Kalashnikov assault rifle and an Uzi machine pistol - has focused attention on the easy availability of illegal weapons in France and their growing use in ultra-violent crimes.

French gunman's arsenal spotlights illegal arms trade | Reuters

 

[Saigon]

Jon -

I suggest you ask people in Europe if illegal weapons are an issue where they live. I am sure almost everyone will tell you that they are not. In countries of 60 million people, of course there are isolated incidents, but they are just that - isolated incidents.

btw, Please stop posting in poetry format. Write one sentence on one line.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Jon -

I suggest you ask people in Europe if illegal weapons are an issue where they live. I am sure almost everyone will tell you that they are not. In countries of 60 million people, of course there are isolated incidents, but they are just that - isolated incidents.

btw, Please stop posting in poetry format. Write one sentence on one line.

blah blah blah

 

[jon_berzerk]

what lack of gun laws? in CA you can't buy an AK or an AR. yet every gang banger has an AK or an AR. you can't have high capacity mags. yet everyone of them has them. where do they get them? do they care about the law ? no think they will care about a new law? don't be ridiculous. their gun store, the black market, is still open, alive and well

and getting stronger everyday

the more you can't buy legally, the more it becomes available illegally

certainly

the ATF says the number one item

of the near future in the black market is tobacco

where it has become profitable to move

smokes taxed at a cheaper rate to places

where it is taxed beyond belief

 

[Quantum Windbag]

the more you can't buy legally, the more it becomes available illegally

Nonsense - neither the UK, Germany nor France have a major problem with illegal weapons, nor do most other countries with safety-based laws.

You know this because you are an expert in all things guns, right?

 

[buckeye45_73]

Jon -

I suggest you ask people in Europe if illegal weapons are an issue where they live. I am sure almost everyone will tell you that they are not. In countries of 60 million people, of course there are isolated incidents, but they are just that - isolated incidents.

btw, Please stop posting in poetry format. Write one sentence on one line.

really?? so why isnt Switzerland full of crime?
Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and deaths

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Damn, Jamaica? I thought they all did weed and were calm and peaceful? what???

Mexico has way tougher gun laws than us and beats us.....

so stop with the bullshit

 

[buckeye45_73]

Gun laws of Jamaica

Guns in Jamaica: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law

The regulation of guns in Jamaica is categorised as restrictivejavascript:popup=window.open('/fire...le=yes,width=650,height=600'); popup.focus();

 

[buckeye45_73]

Guns in Brazil: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law

The regulation of guns in Brazil is categorised as restrictivejavascript:popup=window.open('/fire...le=yes,width=650,height=600'); popup.focus();

 

[buckeye45_73]

Guns in the United States: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law

The regulation of guns in the United States is categorised as permissivejavascript:popup=window.open('/fire...le=yes,width=650,height=600'); popup.focus();

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Kevin -

I suspect that even if all gang-related deaths were removed from the statistics, gun crime in the US would still be the highest in the developed world. Tackling gun violence does not mean tackling gangs alone - only that tackling guns has to be a major part of the crackdown.

In my view, the correlation between poverty and gun violence is so extremely significant that if one does not consider it, I won't be able to take them seriously. When you compare gun homicide in Chicago, the poorest areas have a rate of around 45 deaths/100,000, whereas the richest areas have around 2-3/100,000. This is hugely significant!

Tackling gun violence might not mean tackling the gangs/poverty alone, but it needs to be noted that this is the #1 issue, period.

How many times do you think the news outlets used the words "assault rifles" in the recent gun control blitz vs words like "handguns" or "poverty"? I think that statistic would be quite interesting. I'm guessing it doesn't correlate to the homicide statistics (ie "handgun" is used the same % as it's involved in homicides, same with "assault weapon").

Again, I'm open for a discussion on laws, but I think the Democrats (and Obama) really didn't approach this too well.


.

I do agree with you - but one has to change the root causes of violence, and not only the side-effects. That means tackling poverty first of all as the single largest causative factor, plus drugs, but also removing guns (which we know to be a causative feature of crime) from the equation.

The problem is, of course, that no one has a solution for poverty or for drugs at this stage. We all have ideas on both topics, but few of them can be shown to have worked. Hence, I'd tackle guns first, myself.

Let's be clear here - guns enable crime. Guns strengthen gangs.

To weaken gangs and reduce crime - guns must be removed from the equation, as must drugs. Without guns, gangs will find it harder to function, and will face greater resistance from the community.

Guns do not cause crime.

Come to think of it, neither do drugs or poverty.

But you, being an expert in all things you know nothing about, will ignore the facts and continue to insist we need to fix things that have nothing to do with crime.

Let us be clear hear, what guns do is allow weaker people to be on an equal footing with stronger people. Guns are a tool that can be misused, but the fact that something can be misused is not an argument for eliminating the tool, if it were we would have banned computers by now.

Tell me something, genius, how do you propose eliminating drugs. The US has dedicated itself to eliminating illegal drugs from the face of the Earth for decades, It has used its political and economic clout to force other countries to join in the crusade, and has spent countless billions of dollars to do so. The result is that drugs are easier to get, and less expensive, than they were before it started.

What is that you know that no one else does that will actually eliminate drugs?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Jon -

As I said, neither the UK, Germany or France have a major poblem with illegal weapons, and neither do most other countries with safety-based laws, such as Spain, Japan, Australia or Holland.

Safety based laws? Seriously?

When you point out how those safety based laws eliminate crime and drugs we can talk.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Jon -

As I said, neither the UK, Germany or France have a major poblem with illegal weapons, and neither do most other countries with safety-based laws, such as Spain, Japan, Australia or Holland.

Safety based laws? Seriously?

When you point out how those safety based laws eliminate crime and drugs we can talk.

i was wondering about that myself

then i remembered that is the new buzzword the left has been issued to use

you will see a lot of gun safety bills come up

sort of like how global warming switched to climate change

 

[Saigon]

Jon -

As I said, neither the UK, Germany or France have a major poblem with illegal weapons, and neither do most other countries with safety-based laws, such as Spain, Japan, Australia or Holland.

Safety based laws? Seriously?

When you point out how those safety based laws eliminate crime and drugs we can talk.

Driver's licenses do not directly prevent car accidents - but most people understand why we have them.

If you really can not figure out for yourself how disarming gangs might reduce crime, then I'm not sure it is worth my while explaining it to you.

And yes, 'gun safety' is the issue here.

 

[buckeye45_73]

Jon -

As I said, neither the UK, Germany or France have a major poblem with illegal weapons, and neither do most other countries with safety-based laws, such as Spain, Japan, Australia or Holland.

Safety based laws? Seriously?

When you point out how those safety based laws eliminate crime and drugs we can talk.

Driver's licenses do not directly prevent car accidents - but most people understand why we have them.

If you really can not figure out for yourself how disarming gangs might reduce crime, then I'm not sure it is worth my while explaining it to you.

And yes, 'gun safety' is the issue here.

How are you disarming gangs?

drug cartels all throughout south and central america have tough gun laws..but they get them....hmmmmm

 

[Saigon]

How are you disarming gangs?

drug cartels all throughout south and central america have tough gun laws..but they get them....hmmmmm

I am constantly stunned how low the bar is set for the US these days.

It used to be that the US would be a world leader - now if you can keep up with Honduras, Panama or Nicaragua, that seems to be good enough. I have to say, I think the American people deserve better than what El Salvador has to offer.

Disarming gangs is not even a consideration until the gun laws are in place that ensure that people can not acquire weapons legally. You guys can not go on about how gangs get their weapons illegally, but at the moment they don't often need to.

Once those laws are in place, then it is a case of seizing caches of weapons, ensuring illegal weapons are difficult to get, and ensuring that police are seizing weapons at every opportunity. It won't happen overnight, but over the course of 5 - 10 years, it is definitely possible, and should be considered an achievable goal. Alternatively, you can throw your hands up and let the gangs do what they like.

 

[there4eyeM]

Invading the US is just logistically impossible (unless Mexico or Canada do it, in which case it would last about ten minutes), and was even more so at the time of Japan's suicidal provocation.

It isn't gun-toting private citizens that would stop a trained army in North America. There is no comparison to Afghanistan and the Afghanis. But illusions are marvelous things and some people need to cling to them for their sense of identity.

Personally, I have no problem with or fear of firearms. I do fear idiocy of every kind that endangers me and others, from voting to shooting.

One thing is sure; loving guns doesn't make people more intelligent.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Jon -

As I said, neither the UK, Germany or France have a major poblem with illegal weapons, and neither do most other countries with safety-based laws, such as Spain, Japan, Australia or Holland.

Safety based laws? Seriously?

When you point out how those safety based laws eliminate crime and drugs we can talk.

Driver's licenses do not directly prevent car accidents - but most people understand why we have them.

If you really can not figure out for yourself how disarming gangs might reduce crime, then I'm not sure it is worth my while explaining it to you.

And yes, 'gun safety' is the issue here.

I bet you don't understand why we have them.

Are you aware that gangs used to use chains, knives, clubs, and broken bottles? That they used to set fires and drop bricks out of windows on firemen that responded? That gang members have actually died as a result of the beating in ceremony some gangs use today? Are you aware that El Paso Texas is one of the safest cities in America despite the fact that it is in a state with highly permissive gun laws, and that is is considered a hub of the drug trade?

Want to try again, keeping in mind that I actually know enough to destroy your assumption that gun laws keep people safe?

 

[PredFan]

Owning Guns Doesn't Preserve Freedom - Casey Michel - The Atlantic

Studies show there is very little correlation between heavily armed citizens and the presence of democracy in countries around the world.

After League City, Texas, became the first city in the state to pass a resolution effectively nullifying federal gun regulations in February, Councilwoman Heidi Thiess, who speared the motion, shared a quote. "Gen. Isoroku Yamamoto, who was the commander of Japan's WWII Combined Fleet, was asked why he never bothered to invade the U.S. after Pearl Harbor," she remarked. "And you know what he said? 'You can't invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.'"

It didn't matter that the quote is almost certainly false. The sentiment remains: The tether between that right to bear arms and the safety of liberal democracy is as real post-Newtown as it was following Pearl Harbor. And now that a handful of cities and counties across Texas have passed similar measures barring local officials from enforcing federal legislation, the link between your Glock and your unbridled freedoms becomes inseparable. "The Second Amendment was never meant for hunting, although that's what's been said over generations," Thiess continued. "It was a means of defense. Yes, self-defense, but also defense against our own government."

Personally, that attitude, the swaggering and blustering about how the nutter are gonna save us from the government or from invasion - its downright silly.

But, one can ignore the Mighty Mouse nonsense, its the rest of the article that's interesting.

Old Luddley gets upset when Truthmatters pulls ahead of him in the race to be the most ignorant poster on USMB. This idiotic post is his attempt to catch up.

 

[PredFan]

In 1994 there were about 192 million firearms in the US, and the per capita firearm murder rate was 6.3

By 1996 there were about 242 million firearms in the US, and the per capita firearm murder rate was 5.0

In the year 2000 there were about 259 million firearms in the US, and the per capita firearm murder rate was 3.6

See a pattern yet?

In 2009 there were about 310 million firearms in the US, and the per capita firearm murder rate was 3.4

Last year, after Obama cuased a run on firearms in this country, the ATF still hasn't released it's number for the firearm count, but the per capita firearm murder rate has gone down to 3.2

There is a DIRECT correlation of firearms to less firearm death.

The FBI is the source of the per capita firearm murder rate, and the ATF is the source for the number of firearms in the US.

 

[PredFan]

I think it's very significant that even though as we all know, there has been a record number of gun sales, ammo sales, concealed carry permits issued, and AR-15s bought yet the murder rate by firearms of all types is lower than it has been in decades.